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as far as #3, $11 / hour for 40 hours a week 50 weeks out of the year is $22k per year. A lot of peopel in hourly jobs struggle to even get those 40 hours per week scheduled. That's below the poverty line for a family of four as set out above. So, have both parents work, right? The additional child care and transportation costs associated with having both adults working would obliterate the second income pretty quickly. Forget decent health care.
You're assuming that family of 4 has 2 kids that need full time child care. Believe it or not, most kids go to school at age 5-18. That limits the child care aspect of it. I do understand, if both kids are at home....yeah, there's child care involved.......but most of the time, the kids are old enough to be in school from 8 a.m. to 3 p.m.
There would be child care in the summer months, yes - until the kids, or at least one of them, is 13, 14, 15....depending.
Also, cheap used cars that are good quality are still available. You don't have to spend $10,000 on a used car.
My wife and I both work. Daughter is 11. We haven't spent money on child care since she started kindergarten.
Bottom line - it can be done (both parents working) That's $44,000 a year. In NYC? Not enough. In many places? That's an okay living. Not great, granted, but better than living off the public, not?
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$44,000 is a pretty good living in Youngstown.
Houses cost between $45,000 and $150,000 for the most part. Buy a $100,000 home and you're around $600-$700/month. (with taxes and insurance) If a couple is making $40,000, and has a couple of kids, then according to the IRS withholding calculator, they pay no federal tax. Yippee.
So they pay state tax, and maybe a local tax ..... so possibly 4-5% total. So they clear $3000/month ... with only $700 max going to a house. (if they buy a higher end, very nice home in the better areas)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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DC, got a good laugh from that one. I don't even want to start with "should we have income limits to permit having children?" questions.
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DC, got a good laugh from that one. I don't even want to start with "should we have income limits to permit having children?" questions.
I'm not advocating the government set rules, I'm advocating people use some freakin' common sense. glad you find that concept amusing. 
yebat' Putin
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"All" benefits should be "means tested".
It depends where you are going with this Mac....somehow i get the feeling you are fishing so you can say people shouldn't be able to collect their SS benefit if they make or have saved such and such amount.
I disagree with that.
If you are simply talking about collecting food stamps, etc, for the most part they already are. It's based on low income.
We have to have a balance, and now we do. It shouldn't be near impossible for people to apply for and receive benefits quickly.
Somewhere the discoinnect is that people are able to stay on assistance for decades. I disagree with that. As was illustrated by some other systems, at some point a person who can't get off public assistance should become a Ward of the State.
We can't just toss people to the curb and let them rot on the streets, but we can make them more responsible to the public who is supporting them and require them to perform public service duty on a weekly basis.
Every city has parks and recreational facilities that need better upkeep that only man hours can fix. Add in animal control, streets and sewer, etc....there are lots of things these wards could perform that would save taxpayer money.
Many thing either go undone, or someone has to be hired to get them done.
Get these folks to earn a sliver of their keep.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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My wife and I both work. Daughter is 11. We haven't spent money on child care since she started kindergarten.
Arch, that's awesome. Do you think it's the area you live in that allows (from a practical standpoint, I don't mean regulation) you to do that? Or do you have some kind of family support system that has helped out?
DC, I wasn't even talking about government regulation. Your statement assumes that people without children will eventually earn enough money to support children. And it seems like, if they don't, then they can't have children. Is that what you mean?
Last edited by CleveSteve; 01/31/12 11:22 AM.
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Your statement assumes that people without children will eventually earn enough money to support children. And it seems like, if they don't, then they can't have children. Is that what you mean?
Allow me to clarify.. the time to obtain a job skill or training or education is BEFORE you have children.. so use your late teens and early 20s to use your modest income to improve your earning power through junior college, trade school, whatever.. THEN have children.
As far as whether they ever have children.. I hope they do, children are a blessing that everybody should enjoy if they so desire.. but don't have children you can't house and feed and clothe.. it's pretty much that simple.
Now I will turn it around.. a couple in their late 20s makes $35K a year, if they have a child and she quits work, he will make $22K a year.. should this couple say, "Well, we can't support a family of 3 on $22K a year, but we deserve to have children, so the state can just pick up the rest."... is that what YOU are saying? (And trust me, I realize that most people don't make this decision to have kids in such a rational way.. but that is the topic for a different debate)
yebat' Putin
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That's not what he means.
What he means if you need it spelled out is people should think about what they are doing. If they are having a hard to supporting themself, how is it prudent to bring another mouth in to the fold?
I do think there needs to be incentives to have fewer children if you can't afford them.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Family support - as in I work - and my wife works. My wife works nights. In a factory. I work days (well, most days). As much as I hate having my wife gone 5 nights a week, we make it work. I get daughter up in the morning, mom comes home. Mom goes to bed. I take daughter to school, I go to work. Daughter rides bus home. Mom is up. Here recently, mom leaves at 8 pm for work. I put daughter to bed.
It would work even if wife worked days. She'd be home by 3, daughter gets off bus at 3:35.
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Allow me to clarify.. the time to obtain a job skill or training or education is BEFORE you have children.. so use your late teens and early 20s to use your modest income to improve your earning power through junior college, trade school, whatever.. THEN have children.
That is the ideal route. I agree. It doesn't always happen that way. The sad truth is, there are a lot of people (and I've encountered a lot more since I moved down here than I ever knew in Ohio) who want to have kids ASAP as long as they're out of high school.
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but don't have children you can't house and feed and clothe.. it's pretty much that simple.
Mamase Mamasa Mamakusa
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Now I will turn it around.. a couple in their late 20s makes $35K a year, if they have a child and she quits work, he will make $22K a year.. should this couple say, "Well, we can't support a family of 3 on $22K a year, but we deserve to have children, so the state can just pick up the rest."... is that what YOU are saying? (And trust me, I realize that most people don't make this decision to have kids in such a rational way.. but that is the topic for a different debate)
It is a difficult question, isn't it?
I can't say yes, I can't say no.
On the one hand, we both seem to agree that if people really want to have children, they should be able to have them. We also agree that they should do everything they can to support all of their needs. But what happens if they just can't on their own? I never want to tell anyone who will care for their child and treat them well that they should not get to reproduce in their life. There seems something biologically oppressive in that situation.
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Everybody should be able to have children. You shouldn't have to meet some financial standard.
The question is how many.
I think all can agree that if a couple is having a hard time making ends meet with 2 children, it isn't all that smart to start having more.
It seems to me the irresponsible actions of the parent(s) is further deteriorating the standard of living of their existing children.
But now we are getting in to areas we can't do anything about. The reality is these people will continue to breed and other people are going to get stuck with the bill.
Serious question: At what point is this country over populated??
I think we are past the point by about 75-100 million people.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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That sounds tough, arch. I'm sure it gives the two of you a great feeling of satisfaction to be able to provide for your family in that way.
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1. You don't have a roof over your head
2. Lack of food and clothing
3. Low income (when I say low income, by todays cost of living, 10-12 bucks an hour or thereabouts just isn't going to cut it)
4. No (decent) Medical coverage
5. Bad Credit
as far as #3, $11 / hour for 40 hours a week 50 weeks out of the year is $22k per year. A lot of peopel in hourly jobs struggle to even get those 40 hours per week scheduled. That's below the poverty line for a family of four as set out above. So, have both parents work, right? The additional child care and transportation costs associated with having both adults working would obliterate the second income pretty quickly. Forget decent health care.
Well, yeah, Poverty is different for a family of 4 vs a single 20something.
11.00 per hoiur for a 21 year old guy or gal still living at home or as a roommate in an apartment or house.. you can probably get by..
Family of 4... not really likely... It would be hard to get by on 20 bucks an hours. and that's over 40k a year. Not a lot of extras can be had.
I have a friend, lives in the same complex as me. He has a wife and 5 kids, all still at home, all still attending Aurora Public Schools.
he's the only one working. He works as a geologist for the state of ohio. Just started about 3 months ago. Prior to that, Military (air force) and School.
I don't know how they did it, but they survived on less than 40k.. now he makes about 60 and they feel fat...LOL it's all about perspective I guess...LOL
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Everybody should be able to have children. You shouldn't have to meet some financial standard.
Yes you should have to meet a financial standard.. But not a government imposed standard.. it's a personal standard.
Accidents happen, I know. But generally, if you can't afford to feed another mouth, Cover your wacker, BEFORE you attack her.. 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Cover your wacker, BEFORE you attack her
oh man. I can see the health ad's now 
#gmstrong
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Actually it sounds pretty normal to me . My wife and I had that arrangement for years and while not optimal it did work well .
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j/c Something that really burns my butt. I know a lady (28) who is collecting unemployment while working two jobs totally full time as a bartender while getting paid under the table. She even brags about it with the rational of she has paid taxes (not sure how when she gets paid under the table) and is now getting a return on her money. She is planning on milking it.  THAT's the @#$% that has to stop in this country.
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Serious question: At what point is this country over populated??
I think we are past the point by about 75-100 million people.
I would say right now that about 10-15% of our population isn't really necessary.
And that number will only continue to grow as outsourcing and automation continue to increase.
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Serious question: At what point is this country over populated??
I think we are past the point by about 75-100 million people.
I would say right now that about 10-15% of our population isn't really necessary.
And that number will only continue to grow as outsourcing and automation continue to increase.
I say take the 10 to 15% and hang them... lets clean up the mess 
I'm confused.. Are we now outsourcing procreation? or are we automating it?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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that's so outrageous that it must be toungue-in-cheek.
Do you mean the 15% below the poverty line?
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No, I mean 15% of the population that we really don't have meaningful work for.
Our population has grown as our viable job market has shrunk. That's caused problems for our country, and will continue to do so.
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1. You don't have a roof over your head
2. Lack of food and clothing
3. Low income (when I say low income, by todays cost of living, 10-12 bucks an hour or thereabouts just isn't going to cut it)
4. No (decent) Medical coverage
5. Bad Credit
as far as #3, $11 / hour for 40 hours a week 50 weeks out of the year is $22k per year. A lot of peopel in hourly jobs struggle to even get those 40 hours per week scheduled. That's below the poverty line for a family of four as set out above. So, have both parents work, right? The additional child care and transportation costs associated with having both adults working would obliterate the second income pretty quickly. Forget decent health care.
Well, yeah, Poverty is different for a family of 4 vs a single 20something.
11.00 per hoiur for a 21 year old guy or gal still living at home or as a roommate in an apartment or house.. you can probably get by..
Family of 4... not really likely... It would be hard to get by on 20 bucks an hours. and that's over 40k a year. Not a lot of extras can be had.
I have a friend, lives in the same complex as me. He has a wife and 5 kids, all still at home, all still attending Aurora Public Schools.
he's the only one working. He works as a geologist for the state of ohio. Just started about 3 months ago. Prior to that, Military (air force) and School.
I don't know how they did it, but they survived on less than 40k.. now he makes about 60 and they feel fat...LOL it's all about perspective I guess...LOL
Yeah, it is all about perspective. Median household income in the US from 2006 - 2010 was just over $50,000. That's not salary or wages ..... that's total household income.
$40,000 isn't starving. They probably weren't buying new cars every year, or buying the kids every single new toy in sight ..... but I can see how they could get along quite decently on that level of income.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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No, I mean 15% of the population that we really don't have meaningful work for.
Our population has grown as our viable job market has shrunk. That's caused problems for our country, and will continue to do so.
It goes beyond that. Our infrastructure is bursting at the seams from overuse.
Manufacturing in this country is done. Many of the service jobs created are more or less duplicate jobs. An example is grocery stores. When I was a kid the stores closed at 6PM, were open to 2PM on Saturdays, and closed on Sundays. Everybody bought their food, they just did it in half the time. So now stores stay open late or all night, but still sell the same amount of food.....in proportion to the population. The difference is the jobs pay less or those managers etc are now working 50-60 hours for their paycheck where in the past they worked 40 or so hours.
Lose about 75 million of the people in this country and many of our problems would be solved.
Just as empire after empire has fallen, we are living through the beginning of the fall of the American empire. I fully expect(I won't see it, some of you will) this country as we know it to be 2-3 different countries inside 75 years for sure, possibly 50 years. We are too divided and the Ponzi schemes we have hung our hats on aren't sustainable given the current conditions, which will be here for good.
This is the new normal. We have to adjust.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Does returning tax rates to where they were a dozen years ago really constitute "punishing" the rich? That's what is at the crux of this article as far as I can tell. Saying "our poor are too wealthy" just doesn't sit right with me.
*edit* it would be nice if the article published actual data about how Obama is rewarding the poor and punishing the rich, instead of just saying "America's poor has too much to be poor."
My issue is that usually when talking about poverty the conversation includes "look at what the rich have" (not saying that's what you said here), and I personally don't see what the rich have has anything to do with the poor.
As arch said, the critereia should be the simple necessities, food, clothing & shelter. working DVDs & VCRs can be gotten from the trash these days, as can TVs. Tivo? I bet they meant DVRs, which I would consider a non-standard luxury item since they usually require a service or subscription to work, unless you buy one independently which aren't cheap. Cable I can see, because I know that some government housing includes basic cable in the development, it keeps people from hanging odd antennas outside thier windows and such.
As we can see, all these extras are subjective to what they really are, and how they were obtained. Now if they have a 50" LED flat panel TV, DVR, smart phone, late model car, then yeah, they aren't living in poverty.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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As we can see, all these extras are subjective to what they really are, and how they were obtained. Now if they have a 50" LED flat panel TV, DVR, smart phone, late model car, then yeah, they aren't living in poverty.
You are assuming they bought these things. I know some folks who reluctantly "donated" these types of items.
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As we can see, all these extras are subjective to what they really are, and how they were obtained. Now if they have a 50" LED flat panel TV, DVR, smart phone, late model car, then yeah, they aren't living in poverty.
You are assuming they bought these things. I know some folks who reluctantly "donated" these types of items.
What do you mean by reluctantly?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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As we can see, all these extras are subjective to what they really are, and how they were obtained. Now if they have a 50" LED flat panel TV, DVR, smart phone, late model car, then yeah, they aren't living in poverty.
You are assuming they bought these things. I know some folks who reluctantly "donated" these types of items.
What do you mean by reluctantly?
Perhaps that they donated them from their homes ...... with the doors locked ..... while they weren't home .......?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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That's what I assume he means, at which time they are criminals and as criminals I could care less of their economic level.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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This is disturbing.
This is even more disturbing.
Just who are the rich in this counrty?
Just what is the poverty line?
Are the homeless poor? What is the cost of living?
This is just so disturbing.
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J/C
I had a discussion about this with someone recently. Would it make sense to go away from the cards? I mean, it really is interesting that there are people out shopping at 11pm before their card gets uploaded at midnight. I have to wait for the banks to open to get my pay. Make em stand in line like the old days.
I'm not railing against assistance, I just think it gets abused for the convenience factor. I rented a room somewhere for a while, that the dude said I couldn't get mail or change my address because I made too much for him to get his 180 a month on his card. Of course, I was welcome to all the food I wanted, and I never ate a single bite of it. I made more than enough to feed myself, and so did him and his girlfriend. I've fed myself on 15-20 bucks a week when I was going to school and only working part time. I had everything I needed and never considered myself to be poor.
My sister had/s alot more than I do, even though I make more money and have health care at work. In part because her husband makes right around poverty line, and they get all kinds of stuff from the government, freeing up his cashflow for frivolous purchases (IE a 2000 dollar TV). They actually very recently told me to have kids so my income tax return would go up. I just told him he didn't EARN anything to get that credit, and I never claimed it when I could...shut him up real quick
This type of thinking really does need to stop. How, is not something I've came up with.
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J/C
I had a discussion about this with someone recently. Would it make sense to go away from the cards? I mean, it really is interesting that there are people out shopping at 11pm before their card gets uploaded at midnight. I have to wait for the banks to open to get my pay. Make em stand in line like the old days.
Many people send checks to pay their bills days before they get paid. So what's wrong with starting your shopping as long as you don't checkout before the cash is there?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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My sister had/s alot more than I do, even though I make more money and have health care at work. In part because her husband makes right around poverty line, and they get all kinds of stuff from the government, freeing up his cashflow for frivolous purchases (IE a 2000 dollar TV). They actually very recently told me to have kids so my income tax return would go up. I just told him he didn't EARN anything to get that credit, and I never claimed it when I could...shut him up real quick
This type of thinking really does need to stop. How, is not something I've came up with.
The only way to change the thinking is to cut people off but anybody who would propose that can't win an election because they are portrayed as cold hearted and mean.
Simple human nature dictates that the longer somebody else provides you with something for free, the less incentive you have to actually go out and work harder to earn it for yourself. You cannot simply say that we are going to provide you with this but HOPE that you will someday work yourself to a point where you don't need it.. some probably will but many will not.
If your sister and bro-in-law make $22K a year (and I'm making up numbers) and they get $12K in government assistance that has no end date, what is their incentive to work to get a $.50/hour raise or $1/hour raise or a promotion that might pay them $5K a year more? All they are going to do is work themselves out of the government benefit and they will end up worse off than they were before.. In my example above, they would need a $6/hour raise just to break even... where is the incentive to push yourself that hard?
yebat' Putin
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Seriously, now we're gonna rip the poor for not being poor enough? 
You guys need a hobby.......
I agree, with that said there will always be some who will take advantage of the system, but that doesn't change the fact that there are still many in this country who are homeless.
Cell phones can be obtained pretty easily and there are many second hand stores where someone can buy a cheap TV or even a computer ... This does not mean that these folks are not still living in poverty.
We are not a third world country, so why should our poor then be judged by the same standards?
Capitalism can still work, but we now have a government of the 1%, by the 1% and for the 1%.
They are the very reason why we are in the mess we are in right now and why we have spent so much on bail outs.
And not enough has changed in the way they do business, because they have the money and the leverage to continue to do risky business. The same risky business that got us where we are today.
Thinking about weather or not our poor in this country are poor enough is another way to take our eyes off of the ball and the greed that has raped this country for years.
We are no better off, then we where before the economy crashed.
Banks continue to get bigger, CEO's continue to get ridicules bonuses, even if their respective businesses are failing and laying off workers.
Keep your eye's on the ball
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Quote:
We are not a third world country, so why should our poor then be judged by the same standards?
If you think America's poor are even remotely close to the poor of most of the rest of the world, especially a 3rd world country, then I would suggest you take a few trips... start with Haiti.
yebat' Putin
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
If you think America's poor are even remotely close to the poor of most of the rest of the world, especially a 3rd world country, then I would suggest you take a few trips... start with Haiti.
I believe that was his point.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
If you think America's poor are even remotely close to the poor of most of the rest of the world, especially a 3rd world country, then I would suggest you take a few trips... start with Haiti.
I believe that was his point.
I didn't read it that way.. but now that I read it again, you could be correct and I might be.. not as right.
But to the bigger point.. then what should we compare them to? Because the debate right now seems to compare the poor to the middle and upper middle class.. who have more education, training, skills, and a better work ethic... of course there are exceptions but figuring out the reason some people are poor and some people aren't... it ain't rocket science.
yebat' Putin
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
Quote:
We are not a third world country, so why should our poor then be judged by the same standards?
If you think America's poor are even remotely close to the poor of most of the rest of the world, especially a 3rd world country, then I would suggest you take a few trips... start with Haiti.
Been there ... No what I'm saying is that we live in the richest country in the world and that our poor should not be judged to be not poor, because they have more then some one living in that 3rd world country. That's idiotic and illogical. Everyone likes to use welfare recipients as an example, but there are plenty of hard working Americans who are in poverty due to our economy and just as many young folks with large College loans who can't find a job.
I believe that the richest 1% brought this on our country and the rest of the world due to their greed and shady deals that they are still able to do as we speak.
After the great depression steps where taken in a bill (that I can't think of at the moment) to ensure that there would be checks and balance to ensure that would never occur again.
That bill was killed during the Clinton (thinking it was out dated) years and the rest is history.
Getting that balance back is going to take a monumental effort, because the other side has the money and control of power to keep their greedy risky business as usual status quo.
Last edited by FL_Dawg; 02/02/12 08:49 PM.
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I don't know man. Maybe you are listening to a little too much all night radio.
Then again, maybe you are right.
Possibly the thread needs to be "Just who are the rich in this country?"
Something tells me there would be a much greater differing of opinions on that then who are poor.
We all can pretty much tell who is poor. The real problem is that through envious eyes, we can't say who are rich. It almost seems that anybody making more than $20 a hour is rich.
I'd say if you make more than $2 million a year, you are rich. Under that, you are well off at best, to poor.
This is America, the land of opportunity, remember?? The best and only jobs aren't rolling cigars.
Ok....you start making 2.5 a year, pay a little more, under that, hands off. Oh...that is individual, not joint income. You can't penalize a family unit like that.
Unless of course the desire is to become a 3rd world nation.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
I don't know man. Maybe you are listening to a little too much all night radio.
Then again, maybe you are right.
Possibly the thread needs to be "Just who are the rich in this country?"
Something tells me there would be a much greater differing of opinions on that then who are poor.
We all can pretty much tell who is poor. The real problem is that through envious eyes, we can't say who are rich. It almost seems that anybody making more than $20 a hour is rich.
I'd say if you make more than $2 million a year, you are rich. Under that, you are well off at best, to poor.
This is America, the land of opportunity, remember?? The best and only jobs aren't rolling cigars.
Ok....you start making 2.5 a year, pay a little more, under that, hands off. Oh...that is individual, not joint income. You can't penalize a family unit like that.
Unless of course the desire is to become a 3rd world nation.
Actually I like to watch Charlie Rose late night and I think that it can be very informative to the average Joe.
I know what the face of poverty looks like and that's only the half of it.
I still believe in Democracy and a capitalist driven economy, but just not the way we are using it now. These problems are not going to simply fix themselves and history will repeat itself and maybe the next time will be more fatal then this current disaster is.
As an older man it's not myself that I have concerns for. My kids and the future generations is my motivation for my concerns with the path we are on.
There are people who have much more knowledge then I do on this subject and have the same fears as do I.
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We all have fears, and we are the same era, so the experiences are similar, at least in the broad sense.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Just who are the poor in this
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