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Well, I had a whole response typed out, and the board crapped on me and lost it.
Anyway ...... who are our competitors for receivers right now? What can we offer, other than money, to a prospective signee? What hope can we give him that he will be a great player here, and that his talents will be used to their greatest advantage? What assurance can you offer that we have the QB situation under control, and that we absolutely have a plan there? (and keep in mind that almost every talking head was blasting Colt McCoy at the end of last year, and saying that we had to replace him .... and also that we lost out on a very public pursuit of RG3)
If a guy has a choice between playing here, and catching passes from Colt McCoy, or Washington, and catching passes from the nightly highlight package, RG3, where do you think he's going?
I could see an older guy chasing his last paycheck signing with us. That was really what Fujita was. he was a guy heading to the wrong side of 30 ..... (31 when he played his 1st game for us) who got a better deal from us than he could have anywhere else. We also signed Tony Pashos, chasing his last deal. We aren't getting many of the guys in the prime of their careers, unless they are backups who might get a chance to start here.
We are, and have been a team battling for the basement on almost an annual basis. We are the only team without real, honest, hope at the QB position. QBs make receivers, not the other way around. If a receiver can't get the QB to throw to him, or throw to him with any degree of accuracy, then he's not going to be effective. I honestly don't know how we sell an upper tier guy that this is going to happen here.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Heck shouldn't be in the position he is in if he is content with our WR's.
It is really hard to determine what to do with this pick before we find out who we gain and lose in FA. Do we need to pick Richardson if we resign Hillis? Do we need a WR at #4 if we get a top level WR and maybe a mid-level in FA who are both better than our 3-4? I read over the weekend that Blackmon had a very good workout. That could sway our pick or increase the offer for #4.
Maybe we should do what the Rams did. It should be all about needs and who is available at that pick or if they are looking at Tannehill, they should definately drop back. The Rams want Blackmon; Drop back 2 and we could get their second round pick that the Rams got from the skins. We would then have #6, #22, #36 & #39.
Still think if we were picking today and Kalil goes #3, Blackmon or Clairborne unless someone knocks our socks off for #4.
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What's he supposed to say if he all but knows that the only way to sign a decent WR in free agency is to so completely overwhelm anyone else's offer ..... basically "do a Redskin", or they go elsewhere? You lower expectations, and then when you sign no one, you continue to talk about how much you like our receivers. (and frankly, I'm not sure that our receivers are as horrible as some make them out to be)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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OK .... you're a top WR. You are free to go anywhere you want, to any team that wants you.
What kind of team do you look for? What do you look for as far as coaching, staff, philosophy, personnel, etc.?
So last year the FA pass catchers (who changed teams) were:
Sydney Rice -> Seattle (Jackson)
Zach Miller -> Seattle (Jackson)
Todd Heap -> Cardinals (Kolb)
Sims-Walker -> Rams (Bradford)
Plaxico Burress -> Jets (Sanchez)
Derrick Mason -> Jets (Sanchez)
Mark Clayton -> Giants (Manning)
Steve Breston -> Chiefs (Cassel)
Brad Smith -> Bills (Fitzpatrick)
Steve Smith -> Eagles(Vick)
Daniel Graham -> Titans (Hasselbeck at the time)
Kevin Boss -> Oakland (Campbell)
That is really some shining star power of QBs there.
Second lesson: Did any of those guys do anything this year?
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 03/12/12 09:51 PM.
~Lyuokdea
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I like Garcon....I toss a bundle at him.
The Browns won't. Heck is happy with our stable of receivers.
The guy is a goof. Pull up a vid of him talking if you need proof.
Wow! You sure are in a ornery mood tonight peen.
Do you always judge a book by it's cover? 
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Besides rice most of those guys are either too old, or not very good to begin with.
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Besides rice most of those guys are either too old, or not very good to begin with.
Same is true this year, except VJax and maybe Colston
~Lyuokdea
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Besides rice most of those guys are either too old, or not very good to begin with.
Same is true this year, except VJax and maybe Colston
Pierre Garcon and Robert Meachem are not old.
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Rice was coming off a 280 yard season with an injury. He played 9 games last year. yea. he had one great year in Minnesota, and several "bleh" years. Zach Miller was a decent TE, but hardly a front line guy. Todd heap is at the end of his career as a TE. Sims-Walker did sign with the Rams, a team expected to be an up and coming team. He was also coming off an injury plagued season where he played ..... 1 game. (he played 4 last year for the Rams) He's also never been a huge impact player. Burress was coming out of prison.  Clayton signed with the Rams if I'm not mistaken. He was coming off an injury plagued 5 game season. He played 2 games last year, and was never an impact player. Breaston is a decent receiver. He's actually had some productivity. KC looked like an up and coming team coning into last year. They did go 10-6 in 2010. Brad Smith. Really? Steve Smith was another guy with one big year. I think that you need more than one big year and a bunch of really small ones to be a "top free agent target". Daniel Graham. TE, Career high 409 yards. That was 9 years ago. 'Nuff said. Kevin Boss. TE, Career high 567 yards. hardly a prime free agent. So there was one guy in this group who I would consider a guy who might even flirt with being a #1 receiver who wasn't coming off the IR list for most of the prior year. That guy is Breaston, and he went to a team that was 10-6 the year before. Who, of the rest of these guys, would you consider a front line, #1 receiver?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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So are you conceding guys of that stature might consider Cleveland?
Or are you talking in circles again?
Because Meachems career highs are 45 for 722. Hardly superstar stats.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Steve Smith was another guy with one big year. I think that you need more than one big year and a bunch of really small ones to be a "top free agent target".
Steve Smith would be a decent fit for us. He had a bad injury with the Giants, came to Philly without being fully recoevered and never found his role.
That's a guy on the cheap that has reliable hands, runs good routes.
Definitely is someone I'd like to see here, especially at the cost
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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OK .... you're a top WR. You are free to go anywhere you want, to any team that wants you.
What kind of team do you look for? What do you look for as far as coaching, staff, philosophy, personnel, etc.?
I go where the money is the best.
How many highly paid free agent wide receivers have gone on to have success with a new team anyway? Not many.
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Why? Because I'm a realist?
No your not.
You are whining your ass off because the Browns did not give up the farm for your short man crush of RG3. (And we all know the crush didn't start until all the media hype) And now you are in a frenzy because Heckert gave the impression that they are not going to go crazy in free agency. I can name 2 teams in our own division that don't go crazy in free agency. The Steelers, and the Ravens. They seem to do pretty damn well every year right? You build a team through the draft, Not loading up on free agents, and certainly not giving away that many picks for the next Akili Smith.
God forbid the Browns pass on the next media sensation.
[color:"white"]I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane -Waylon Jennings
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I gotta agree with Ytown (even though it kills me) on the fact that FA's will avoid Cleveland. The only way we get a FA like Mario, Colston, etc. is to WAY over pay... even then it's doubtful.
To heck with McCoy, who wants to play for Shurmur and a new HC in the next year or two? I'm ok with McCoy. Didn't really like the thoughts of over paying for RG3, but would loved to have had Luck.
I think we need to draft offensive weapons this year, period. On D a DE like Sheard would be nice too. I can live with the rest. One 10-6 season and we'll get all the FA's we want.
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Akili Smith was a knucklehead, that played 1 season of college ball, and was primarily known for a strong arm. I have a few bucks in my pocket that says Griffin will throw for more than 5td's in his career. I don't see the comparison.
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Akili Smith was a knucklehead, that played 1 season of college ball, and was primarily known for a strong arm. I have a few bucks in my pocket that says Griffin will throw for more than 5td's in his career. I don't see the comparison.
They're both black.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Wow. You didn't pay attention, because I wanted RG3 probably before anyone else on this board, and well back into last season. I started talking about him a lot with 3 or 4 weeks left in the year.
The Ravens and Steelers don't go crazy in free agency, because they own the division between them.
When is the last time we won the division? (Can you tell me without looking it up? Be honest) Here's a hint. It's more than 2 decades ago. That doesn't help attract players to our team.
Plus, those teams don't go crazy, but they don't abstain either. The Steelers are more likely to add a specific guy, like James Farrior, while the Ravens add guys as needed like Matt Birk and Bryant McKinnie, and others. They also trade for guys like Anquon Boldin. (sp)
Both teams also have a lot of UDFA. Some even start.
As far as RG3, well, we'll see who is right as far as RG3 and who is wrong. It will be interesting. I admit when I'm wrong. I wonder how many will admit they were wrong if he becomes a top QB, and maybe takes the Redskins to a Super Bowl within a few years?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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They're both black.
I'm not picking on you specifically but this isn't the first time I've seen this misinformed, ridiculous, and honestly offensive garbage being spewed.
Personally I think RG3 is over-rated. He doesn't know how to run an offense. He's never had to learn to read a defense. He doesn't have proper footwork for taking snaps under center. He has poor pocket awareness. What he DOES have is a big arm and good athleticism combined with some uber media-driven hype. Due to this, he's going to be a top pick with an (IMO) extremely high chance of being a bust. Due to that, I call him Akili Smith 2.0. Race has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.
I don't dislike the man. If he ends up great then so be it. Good for him. I don't think using a top pick on a player with that much risk and question marks is worth the gamble, even if they do end up panning out. Some disagree.
Turn about is fair play. I swear to God, the next time I hear somebody compare Andrew Luck to Peyton Manning I'm going to call them racist. They only do it because he's "white". No? Why not? Same line of thinking. Give me a freaking break.
NOBODY CARES ABOUT HIS RACE!
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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So is Case Keenum also Akili Smith 2.0?
Or is he more Tim Couch 2.0?
Last edited by OSGuy; 03/13/12 02:06 AM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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No I'd call Case Keenum David Klingler 2.0. But that's probably "racist" too eh?
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Just for the record. I wasn't wrong. They both are African American. Which was my point. 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Cam Newton had all the same question marks, and he answered the bell. In fact Carolina used the first pick to take him. In a lot of areas griffin is more polished coming out of college than newton was. You will see.
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And like I said I wasn't specifically calling you out. It was a general response because I've seen it said more than once (and I was specifically called a racist in another thread) due to comparing RG3 to Akili Smith.
It's human nature that when we compare a prospect to another player, it's based on a player they "remind us" of. Generally, a black player will remind people of a similar black player. White players will remind us of another white player. Red headed athletes will remind us of other red headed athletes. It's not because everyone is racist...it's because a large part of being "reminded" of someone is a visual thing.
Case Keenum reminds me of David Klingler because they both were system QBs from Houston. Doesn't make me a "schoolist" any more than comparing a black prospect to a former black QB makes me a "racist".
And again, I find it personally offensive when people claim anyone is a racist who compares RG3 to any other black QBs who struggled even though (most of the time and for me specifically) it's based on the fact we don't like his skill-set and think he won't be a success either.
If I thought RG3 was a sure fire shot to be a stud QB for us in the NFL I'd be the first person on his bandwagon hoping we got him. So I say again. Race. Doesn't. Matter.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Why? Because I'm a realist? Outside of awful pain in my back, I'm perfectly healthy.
Now, let's play a game.
OK .... you're a top WR. You are free to go anywhere you want, to any team that wants you.
What kind of team do you look for? What do you look for as far as coaching, staff, philosophy, personnel, etc.?
Are we that kind of team? (and please answer honestly)
I'll play.
Say it was you, instead. You have 2 offers for 3 years of employment, and one person offers you 20% more, or 25, or 30. Would you accept less money to work for a more successful company?
Thomas - The Tank Engine
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Why? Because I'm a realist? Outside of awful pain in my back, I'm perfectly healthy.
Now, let's play a game.
OK .... you're a top WR. You are free to go anywhere you want, to any team that wants you.
What kind of team do you look for? What do you look for as far as coaching, staff, philosophy, personnel, etc.?
Are we that kind of team? (and please answer honestly)
I'll play.
Say it was you, instead. You have 2 offers for 3 years of employment, and one person offers you 20% more, or 25, or 30. Would you accept less money to work for a more successful company?
I'll answer the question. I'd go to a team that is more likely to go to the playoffs and has a more guaranteed position and neither Washington with RGiii nor Cleveland with RGiii would fit that bill. I'd want an established team that is not placing their hopes on a single player to get them better. I'm going to a team that got close last year. Either place would be paying much more for a FA to sign with them.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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Or we say that neither Flynn nor Tannehill is all that, and we move on without them.
We could then take a QB later in the draft, and do exactly what so many people have been crying for us to do, and that's build around McCoy. Those people can have their wish .... but now it seems like fewer and fewer people want that option.
I don't get it.
We shouldn't go grab a QB just to say that we grabbed a QB. The guys should have a chance at being a great QB, or we should pass. I don't see greatness in either Tannehill or Flynn ...... so we should pass on both. We can grab Richardson, and give McCoy a great running game to work with. People also said that McCoy couldn't operate last year because he had no running game. Well, here is a chance to fix that for a long time to come.
The very worst thing we should do is take a project QB with the 4th overall pick. He's not going to start this year, and probably not next year either .... and he's not going to help our current QB. Draft Richardson, give McCoy the help people have been crying out for, and see what he can do. We can take a WR either with our 2nd pick, or our 2nd round pick, and still get great value.
YT...something some seem to have missed throughout all this qb debate, regardless of whom is playing QB for Cleveland, the supporting cast still needs to be upgraded.
Even if we had landed rg3, our supporting cast needed to be upgraded. Many were willing to accept free agents to fill supporting cast needs to offset the traded away draft picks.
Kind of proves a point many were trying to make..regardless of who ends up as the Browns starting QB, the supporting cast needs to be upgraded..WR, Oline, RB.
I have no problem if the Browns by choice or not end up with McCoy at QB and use our draft picks help fill the many needs on offense and defense.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I like Garcon....I toss a bundle at him.
The Browns won't. Heck is happy with our stable of receivers.
The guy is a goof. Pull up a vid of him talking if you need proof.
Wow! You sure are in a ornery mood tonight peen.
Do you always judge a book by it's cover?
No, I give it a couple of chapters. .
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I see what you did there...very crafty! 
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Money talks.. 99% of the time, show them the money (guaranteed) and they'll go anywhere.. don't matter about HC, Owner, Staff, QB.. etc.. Just don't matter nearly as much as you want to make it sound.
Follow the money....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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#4 Richardson
#22 Best WR availible
2nd round Best RT availible
3rd Round DE /LB best availble
4th round Best WR & OG
5th - 7th Best availible......
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Money talks for the mid range and low level guys. No doubt about that. It is less of a motivator for the good players simply because they are going to get the money and they are going to have more options.
I think it is fair to say the more options a player has, the more the "Who, What, When, and Where's" come in to play.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I like Garcon....I toss a bundle at him.
The Browns won't. Heck is happy with our stable of receivers.
The guy is a goof. Pull up a vid of him talking if you need proof.
Wow! You sure are in a ornery mood tonight peen.
Do you always judge a book by it's cover?
No, I give it a couple of chapters. .
That's a pretty good come back, but
his first two chapters (Drafts) do not support your claims imo.
Personally I agree that he doesn't look the part, but I am only concerned with his end results.
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Since the RG3 debacle is behind us....
Now we all are assuming the Vikings will be taking Kalil. My question is what if they decide to go with a Blackmon/Percy combo?
Is it plausible that the Vikings could take Blackmon and if they do, who is the best option for us?
Even though i am in love with Blackmon i would love to get Kalil. Thomas, Mack, and Kalil sounds like a great line for the future. That would give us a back-up LT if Thomas ever goes down and solid line pieces for the future. Plug in play LG and Lavaou at RG and we have a Strong offensive line for the future.
Clairborne is still an excellent pick but I'm wasn't impressed with him at the combine. I think he has tight hips and definitely needs to work on some fundmental techniques. He is an great athlete with long arms, which I think helped him to recover. I really don't believe that he is that far ahead of Kirpatrick.
Now that Pashos is gone - we could see an offensive tackle at #4 overall. However, I'd prefer us to trade back for a tackle where you can find plenty of intriguing prospects to choose from. I think we can upgrade Tony Pashos as far back as round 2 (pick #37). And the guy might even be tough enough to play through a paper cut or even a common cold.
At #4, my favorite choice would be Blackmon contingent upon Minnesota realizing the best way to protect their 1st round QB is with the highest rated Left Tackle.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/13/12 07:16 AM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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The guy is a goof. Pull up a vid of him talking if you need proof.
I will simply put this with comments about how Crennel was a poor coach because he didn't sound good in interviews..... in the garbage. 
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I like Garcon....I toss a bundle at him.
I do too, he's quick and kinda shifty and can get separation, runs good routes. More importantly, he seems to know the position quite well.
A deep burner is everyone's dream here, but I more kinda want the guys that are going to make things happen in the 5-15 yd range, then be able to get a little YAC. That is how you keep drives alive, not by going for broke all the time.
Sure, the deep ball is more exciting, and you need to show it every now and again to keep the defense honest, but you have to have guys that can make things happen in that middle range to make the defense cheat up in the first place so that your deep ball has a chance. If you can't do that (and we couldn't last year), then they can just cover that area without too much safety help, which means that they are now taking away both the mid-range AND the deep ball.... leaving us with nothing but dinks and dunks and failed-before-they-begin screens.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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The guy is a goof. Pull up a vid of him talking if you need proof.
I will simply put this with comments about how Crennel was a poor coach because he didn't sound good in interviews..... in the garbage.
Don't forget the looks-like-a-rat test . . .
Love ya, Peen.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858 |
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Money talks for the mid range and low level guys. No doubt about that. It is less of a motivator for the good players simply because they are going to get the money and they are going to have more options.
I think it is fair to say the more options a player has, the more the "Who, What, When, and Where's" come in to play.
Sure,, I buy that.. More options means they have a choice.. Money being equal, they'll go for the fit. But if one team that is a sure fit offers 10 million and a team that isn't a sure fit offers 15 million... Money talks..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
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Why? Because I'm a realist? Outside of awful pain in my back, I'm perfectly healthy.
Now, let's play a game.
OK .... you're a top WR. You are free to go anywhere you want, to any team that wants you.
What kind of team do you look for? What do you look for as far as coaching, staff, philosophy, personnel, etc.?
Are we that kind of team? (and please answer honestly)
I'll play.
Say it was you, instead. You have 2 offers for 3 years of employment, and one person offers you 20% more, or 25, or 30. Would you accept less money to work for a more successful company?
I have turned down more money to go with a company that I felt offered a better opportunity.
2 rather promotions with my new company later, it proved the right decision. I was making 1 1/2 times what I started at, and blew away the salary structure of the competitor company. I had to earn it though.
Football is different though. No one player can win anything all by himself. However, there are certain positions that have more power to influence the outcome of a game. There are others that are completely dependent upon another position. Receiver is one of the latter. The receiver does absolutely nothing, outside of maybe an occasional run play, without the QB first getting him the ball.
In my case, I was in more and more control of my own destiny, and took on more and more authority and "power" as I progressed through the system. It will never be that way for a receiver.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858 |
You are talking the difference between earning 15 bucks an hour and 20.
In football type pay, that could be 2, 3, 4 or more million a year. It shouldn't make a difference I know.. But it does...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
However, if my career can go beyond the contract I sign, or the good chance that I won't be able to finish out this shiny contract, then I look at what's best for my career. This guy seems like he's been listening to me or something. lol Free-agent receivers won't rush to play for Cleveland Browns until QB spot is settled, says Dennis Manoloff (SBTV) | cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2012/03/free-agent_receivers_wont_rush.html
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 183
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 183 |
Assuming the first three go Luck, RGIII, and Khalil, I am going to bet we do one of the following:
a) Richardson (but ONLY if we don't re-sign Hillis)
b) Claiborne (Holmgren loves his CB's)
c) Trade Down (Heckert loves to, although I wouldn't necessarily like the move this year)
d) Blackmon (I just don't see us taking a WR this high, but think we should).
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Pick #4
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