There might be none, and the only reason one goes high is because he is forced up because of position.
Barkley will have to show me a lot next year for me to want him on my team. There's a reason he went back to school, and it's because he knew that he would be either 2, or more likely, 3 in this draft. He didn't want to be the 3rd best ... so he went back to try and come out in a weaker year for QBs.
Perhaps ... Or like Luck last year, he wanted to fulfill his commitment and perhaps he ends up 3rd QB next year and that might not be a bad thing
I'm not as high on Jones, but you never know what next years College season will bring.
Quote: yt...so it's all Colt McCoy's fault...again.
Thinking about this relationship between QBs and WRs and how dependant they are on each other, in order to be successful...
...I was thinking about Derek Anderson and the 2007 season when the Browns went 10-6. It was Anderson's most effective year as a QB but he had Kellen Winslow and Braylon Edwards along with Joe Jurevicius...who together caught 212 passes.
Winslow and Edwards had pro bowl years with 1106 and 1289 yd receiving. The key to Anderson's success was his receiving corp, especially these two guys. With Winslow was 6-4, Edwards 6-3 and Jurevicius was 6-5...and all 3 would sell out going after a pass...thus, the size of the "windows" Anderson was throwing to, were huge compared to the size of the window McCoy has to throw to.
All Anderson had to do was get a pass close and his receivers would go get the ball. Anderson developed a confidence in his receivers and was not afraid to throw the ball, even if his receivers were covered.
Also, a key ingredient in Anderson's success in 2007 was an offensive line that only allowed him to be sacked 14 times. The Browns Oline ranked 5th overall in pass protection and were 2nd in run blocking.
No doubt in my mind that Anderson's "receivers" made him appear to be a better QB than he really was. Anderson was not known for accuracy but his receivers would go after any pass that was in the neighborhood and more often than not, they would come down with the catch.
Feel free to compare McCoy's receiving corps last season vs Anderson's receiving corps in 2007...not even close, is it?
Other than Greg Little, who spent much of his rookie year knocking off the rust after missing his entire senior year of college football, Colt McCoy had no receivers close to the caliber of Winslow and Edwards.
Momass has at times shown the ability to go after passes but more so in 2010 and not so much in 2011.
Kind of hard for a QB to have confidence in his receivers if they are not willing go after passes that might not be exactly where the receiver would prefer. Add to the equation a coaching staff that emphasizes no interceptions and what you get is a QB who is reluctant to pull the trigger.
...and let us not forget that other key ingredient needed to have a successful passing offense...PASS PROTECTION. Your QB needs to know he will not be running for his life in less than 3 seconds, if he drops back to pass.
What is needed for QB success?...look no further than the supporting cast Derek Anderson had in 2007...then compare that supporting cast to the supporting cast the Browns surrounded McCoy with last season.
BTW, Derek Anderson's supporting cast made him a Pro Bowl QB in 2007...now tell me again why the supporting cast does not matter.
Hard to sum it up any better than this! Thanks Mac!
Little is raw with a lot to learn right now. When we think about it, how many more years of college experience did he have playing WR than Josh Cribbs had? He should improve with the journey. I'd like to see him get a little more aggressive going for the football in traffic and using his frame better than Danny Ferry.
I really think if we add an x-factor on the perimeter, it'll make life easier for McCoy and open up underneath space for Little/MoMass or Cribbs. We need the talent/speed/both to begin getting Safeties and defensive coordinators respecting our weapons enough to remove a Safety from the box. Last year always felt like we were throwing too many slant patterns into crowds.
Some will argue it was because they don't think McCoy is good at throwing the outs. Until we see it done successfully with consistency - it's tough to argue that just yet. Having said that, there's not too many highlights of MoMass running nice outs for any QBs here thus far. Somebody shared highlights of MoMass plays that showed them promise; but most were straight ahead routes or slants/flags/posts rather than curls/comebacks/outs. When I say I'd like an x-factor I mean a WR that is polished enough to run every pattern well enough to command a respectful eye of Safety and Defensive Coordinator. It would be nice to finally add a newbie that can do it now instead of feeling like we need to wait 2 to 3 years for polish.
The idea of confidence and trust you alluded to Mac seems to be very key in this whole thing. I'd see some throws from McCoy looking like he was expecting MoMass to be in 1 place and MoMass made a completely different adjustment to the corner with inside leverage. In those instances the ball went where MoMass was expected to be. I always got the impression that our WRs can't come back to the football or they won't come back to the football. One of those conditions is coachable and the other probably isn't. Cribbs probably does it the best and he's been here the longest so it's coachable in my opinion. QB and WRs need to be on the same page or there won't be any trust, chemistry or confidence.
I'm looking forward to seeing who we add to our WR Corps this April. If this area improves in conjunction with better pass protection on the right side of our line - I can see McCoy being successful. I really can.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/28/1207:53 AM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
When you look at the guys who take their teams to Super Bowls ..... who put up 30-50 TD passes in a year, with minimal mistakes ..... can you really see McCoy being one of those guys?
Can you see McCoy being a guy who loads his team on his back and drags them down the field, seemingly on willpower alone, to win games?
Can you see McCoy as a guy who makes all of the players on offense better than they would otherwise be?
I can't. I have trouble, seriously, thinking of any single trait that McCoy possesses that could be considered elite. Can you tell me of any?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Can you see McCoy being a guy who loads his team on his back and drags them down the field, seemingly on willpower alone, to win games?
you mean like Alex Smith did against NO in the playoffs to win that game? or how he drove the 49ers down the field against the Giants at the end of the 4th quarter to force OT in the NFC Championship game?
how many people would have "seen" much in Alex Smith before last year? heck, most of us would have been surprised to hear that he lasted the full season as starter.
it's impossible to project like you are attempting to in absolutes. at this point in his career, Eli looked like a bust, so did Brees, so did many others. does that mean Colt will become a good QB? no, of course not. plenty of bad QBs also looked bad at this point too. But, to suggest it's impossible is folly as well.
Guys can look totally different even if their stats may be similar in some marginal fashion.
Eli Manning wasn't a great QB in his 2nd year, but he attacked down the field. He had 49 pass plays of 20+ yards. He only completed 53% of his passes that year, yet averaged yards/attempt.
By comparison, McCoy averaged 5.9 yards/attempt on 57% passing.
That's frightening.
Alex Smith did have a great 4th quarter in the NFCC game. That doesn't make him a better QB than he is. The biggest mistake teams make is to take one very small sample and assume that this is what they will get on a regular basis. Smith was effective last year by playing it as safe as possible, while letting his team win games for him. I am almost willing to bet that he doesn't have some offensive explosion this year because of one quarter in the NFCC game.
Maybe he will. That still doesn't change what we have with McCoy.
I'll ask again ... what does he do well? What are his strengths as a passer? What routes does he throw well? Is he overly aggressive, or overly passive? Which is harder to change, and which is more harmful to his own team?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
QBs generally do what they are told. when they don't then they get benched or cut.
Eli had YPA of 5.3 in his rookie year. then, 6.8 in his 2nd year. completion% of 48.2 and 52.8. Colt had YPA of 7.1 in his rookie year. then, 5.9 in his 2nd year. completion% of 60.8% and 57.2%.
Scheme and the fact that we had virtually no running game the 2nd year played a big part in the change.
Disclaimer: once again before someone jumps on it. no, I'm not saying Colt is guaranteed or even likely to make a huge jump forward. just that it's crazy to indicate that there is no chance he does not continue to progress.
------------------------------
on Alex Smith: why would anyone expect an offensive explosion? the 49ers do not want an offensive explosion. they want the 49ers to play good but safe play on offense and win it with great defense. the fact that Alex Smith showed he can lead the team down and get those points when they need it is why he was valuable (like Tom Brady for the first 2 of their 3 SBs --- didn't lose the game and then did enough at the end to win when needed).
The Niners absolutely want an offensive explosion. You don't pursue Peyton Manning to play ball control offense. You pursue Peyton Manning so you can have big plays in the passing game.
As far as McCoy, again, there are so many things that I saw that concern me, and have outlined many, many times that have nothing to do with any player other than him. He lacked a running game, yet he wasn't better when he had one.
People also argue against Richardson at 4, saying that we don;t need a great RB if we stay with McCoy. I don't get that one at all ..... because he has shown that he needs someone to help carry a large part of the offensive load.
We ran for 141 yards against the Seahags last year. How was our overall offensive production? We ran for 126 against the Rams. How explosive was our passing game in that game? We ran for 148 against the Jaguars.
Hardesty/Ogbonnaya ran for 110 against Seattle. Ogbonnaya, Cribbs, and Little ran for 121 against St Louis. Ogbonnaya ran for 115 against Jacksonville.
In those 3 games, which should have been bigger games because the run game worked ..... we scored 6, 12, and 14 points. There was no explosion in the passing game because the run game helped. In the Seattle game, McCoy threw for 178 yards on an astonishing 35 attempts. Against St Louis he threw for 218 on 27 attempts. He threw 24 times for 199 yards against Jacksonville.
In those 3 games, with solid run support, he threw for 1 TD and 2 INTs. he was a non factor. He was a placeholder. He did nothing of much importance at all.
His game didn't pick up with a running game ... it stayed flat and stagnant.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: yt...so it's all Colt McCoy's fault...again.
Thinking about this relationship between QBs and WRs and how dependant they are on each other, in order to be successful...
...I was thinking about Derek Anderson and the 2007 season when the Browns went 10-6. It was Anderson's most effective year as a QB but he had Kellen Winslow and Braylon Edwards along with Joe Jurevicius...who together caught 212 passes.
Winslow and Edwards had pro bowl years with 1106 and 1289 yd receiving. The key to Anderson's success was his receiving corp, especially these two guys. With Winslow was 6-4, Edwards 6-3 and Jurevicius was 6-5...and all 3 would sell out going after a pass...thus, the size of the "windows" Anderson was throwing to, were huge compared to the size of the window McCoy has to throw to.
All Anderson had to do was get a pass close and his receivers would go get the ball. Anderson developed a confidence in his receivers and was not afraid to throw the ball, even if his receivers were covered.
Also, a key ingredient in Anderson's success in 2007 was an offensive line that only allowed him to be sacked 14 times. The Browns Oline ranked 5th overall in pass protection and were 2nd in run blocking.
No doubt in my mind that Anderson's "receivers" made him appear to be a better QB than he really was. Anderson was not known for accuracy but his receivers would go after any pass that was in the neighborhood and more often than not, they would come down with the catch.
Feel free to compare McCoy's receiving corps last season vs Anderson's receiving corps in 2007...not even close, is it?
Other than Greg Little, who spent much of his rookie year knocking off the rust after missing his entire senior year of college football, Colt McCoy had no receivers close to the caliber of Winslow and Edwards.
Momass has at times shown the ability to go after passes but more so in 2010 and not so much in 2011.
Kind of hard for a QB to have confidence in his receivers if they are not willing go after passes that might not be exactly where the receiver would prefer. Add to the equation a coaching staff that emphasizes no interceptions and what you get is a QB who is reluctant to pull the trigger.
...and let us not forget that other key ingredient needed to have a successful passing offense...PASS PROTECTION. Your QB needs to know he will not be running for his life in less than 3 seconds, if he drops back to pass.
What is needed for QB success?...look no further than the supporting cast Derek Anderson had in 2007...then compare that supporting cast to the supporting cast the Browns surrounded McCoy with last season.
BTW, Derek Anderson's supporting cast made him a Pro Bowl QB in 2007...now tell me again why the supporting cast does not matter.
Let's not forget other things about that 2007 season.
There wasn't a truncated off-season.
Based on the scheduled opponents, going 10-6 wasn't that big of a surprise.
We didn't have a revolving door at RT and the team wasn't starting a rookie and virtual rookie at both guard spots.
Quote: That makes no sense whatsoever. If the most any receiver caught was 54% of the passes thrown his direction, then there is no way McCoy could have completed 57%. The math simply doesn't add up.
I just said Little was the best option, didn't say anything about the passes he made to his backs. Forgive me for not specifying Little was the best option at receiver.
Quote: yt...so it's all Colt McCoy's fault...again.
Thinking about this relationship between QBs and WRs and how dependant they are on each other, in order to be successful...
...I was thinking about Derek Anderson and the 2007 season when the Browns went 10-6. It was Anderson's most effective year as a QB but he had Kellen Winslow and Braylon Edwards along with Joe Jurevicius...who together caught 212 passes.
Winslow and Edwards had pro bowl years with 1106 and 1289 yd receiving. The key to Anderson's success was his receiving corp, especially these two guys. With Winslow was 6-4, Edwards 6-3 and Jurevicius was 6-5...and all 3 would sell out going after a pass...thus, the size of the "windows" Anderson was throwing to, were huge compared to the size of the window McCoy has to throw to.
All Anderson had to do was get a pass close and his receivers would go get the ball. Anderson developed a confidence in his receivers and was not afraid to throw the ball, even if his receivers were covered.
Also, a key ingredient in Anderson's success in 2007 was an offensive line that only allowed him to be sacked 14 times. The Browns Oline ranked 5th overall in pass protection and were 2nd in run blocking.
No doubt in my mind that Anderson's "receivers" made him appear to be a better QB than he really was. Anderson was not known for accuracy but his receivers would go after any pass that was in the neighborhood and more often than not, they would come down with the catch.
Feel free to compare McCoy's receiving corps last season vs Anderson's receiving corps in 2007...not even close, is it?
Other than Greg Little, who spent much of his rookie year knocking off the rust after missing his entire senior year of college football, Colt McCoy had no receivers close to the caliber of Winslow and Edwards.
Momass has at times shown the ability to go after passes but more so in 2010 and not so much in 2011.
Kind of hard for a QB to have confidence in his receivers if they are not willing go after passes that might not be exactly where the receiver would prefer. Add to the equation a coaching staff that emphasizes no interceptions and what you get is a QB who is reluctant to pull the trigger.
...and let us not forget that other key ingredient needed to have a successful passing offense...PASS PROTECTION. Your QB needs to know he will not be running for his life in less than 3 seconds, if he drops back to pass.
What is needed for QB success?...look no further than the supporting cast Derek Anderson had in 2007...then compare that supporting cast to the supporting cast the Browns surrounded McCoy with last season.
BTW, Derek Anderson's supporting cast made him a Pro Bowl QB in 2007...now tell me again why the supporting cast does not matter.
Let's not forget other things about that 2007 season.
There wasn't a truncated off-season.
Based on the scheduled opponents, going 10-6 wasn't that big of a surprise.
We didn't have a revolving door at RT and the team wasn't starting a rookie and virtual rookie at both guard spots.
More good points! And we don't really know if both OGs are going to pan out. We hope they do.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
Quote: Can you see McCoy being a Super Bowl quality QB?
I mean that question seriously.
San Diego Charger fans were asking this same exact question after Drew Brees finished his 3rd NFL with a 67.5 passer rating (inclusive of 11 TDs and 15 INTs); and they sported the worst record in the NFL to earn the right to draft 1st overall the next year. It was probably pretty easy to say at the time this guy never had a Superbowl Sunday in his future.
I don't think any young/inexperienced QB could win with the lineup we had in 2011. Therefore, talking Superbowl seems really far fetched when we don't know who is going to score TDs here. I'd like to say Colt McCoy is 21 starts old; but the last 13 starts involved a brand new playbook.
So what do I base my optimism on?
Colt McCoy led his last team into a National Championship Game when he had enough favorable matchups to work with. One thing he did really well at the college level was win consistently without a lot of superstars on the line or at the skilled positions. He also won consistently in high school.
I think he can win at this level if we give him more weapons to work with and improve the right side of our oline.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
But we aren't talking about a once in a lifetime guy like Drew Brees, we are talking about Colt McCoy.
There once was a guy named Art Schliester, a QB who went #1 overall, and who blew up his career with gambling and drugs. Does that mean that we should never take a QB #1 overall? Of course not.
There once was a guy named Tom Brady who wasn't drafted until the 6th round, and who led his team to 5 Super Bowls, winning 2 of them. Does that mean that we should not draft a QB until the 6th round? Of course not.
Most QBs who struggled with their drafting team do not go on to success with a different team. Of course, Brees was already becoming a successful QB before he got hurt and became a free agent. What Drew Brees did, or did not do has absolutely nothing to do with Colt McCoy.
I am curious as to what characteristics, what abilities, what specific throws, actions, or capabilities you see in Colt McCoy that make you think he'll be a successful NFL QB. Not every successful college or high school QB makes it in the NFL. Most, by a wide majority, do not. Only 32 guys each year break camp as a starting QB for an NFL team and many of them do so for 5-10 years or more. Then there are the other guys ..... some of whom are young up and comers, and others who might make it, but most of whom are guys who will be replaced, it's just a matter of when. They simply do not do enough well enough at the NFL level to remain an NFL starter. I believe that Colt McCoy falls into this category.
What does McCoy do well at an NFL level that leads you to think that he's the answer, and can lead us to, and win a Super Bowl? I have laid out, specifically, many times, exactly what I saw from McCoy that makes me believe that he will not succeed. What, specifically, do you see that leads you to believe he will be? I don't see any elite abilities, from accuracy, to arm strength, to ability to make all of the NFL throws, to ability to fit the ball into NFL windows, to being able to read an NFL defense, to being able to work from the pocket, and so on ...... I just don't see NFL ability from McCoy. He occasionally makes a nice throw, or a nice play, but those are so rare that they are the exception by far. What, specifically, do you see that leads you to disagree?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
All I'll say about you and Colt is: you better be right about him sucking. If you are, fair enough. If you're wrong, I will hound you about it till the day I get kicked off of here.
I am tired of hearing how the Browns qb's suck. I'm tired of people laying it all on the qb. I'm tired of the self professed "nfl qb experts" that know everything.
It gets old.
You go on being you.
Building a team means more than just drafting the supposed "best", or second best, or third best qb in a draft.
Hey, I didn't think that DQ would come back and be any good.
I was wrong. I am happy to have been wrong. I never shy away when I've been wrong.
I also didn't rub peoples' faces in the Frye/Quinn flops. I saw no need to. I was right, but it hurt the team, so I took no joy in it, other than the fact that we didn't waste any more time on them.
See, there's my problem with your statement though ....... some people, like you, say that they will never let me forget ...... while not actually taking a stand one way or the other ........ "I think he's OK ..... but if we could stay put and upgrade that would be OK ........ maybe he'll be better next year ...... but maybe we won't improve the rest of the team enough ...... but ... but ... but ......."
Are you willing to be publicly lambasted till the end of time if he flops again? (or even if he is just an ineffective QB?)
Must be nice to have it all one way.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: YTown, let's compare the teams (setting the coaching staffs and systems aside for a moment) and give the advantage to one side or the other.
2002 San Diego Chargers (8-8, 16 starts), HC Marty Schottenheimer QBs: Drew Brees RBs: LaDanian Tomlinson WRs: Tim Dwight, Curtis Conway, Reche Caldwell, Eric Parker TEs: Stephen Alexander
2010 Cleveland Browns (2-6, 8 starts), HC Eric Mangini QBs: Colt McCoy RBs: Peyton Hillis WRs: Brian Robiskie, Mohamed Massaquoi, Chansi Stuckey, Joshua Cribbs TEs: Ben Watson, Evan Moore, Eddie Royal
2003 San Diego Chargers (2-9, 11 starts), HC Marty Schottenheimer QBs: Drew Brees RBs: LaDanian Tomlinson WRs: David Boston, Tim Dwight, Eric Parker, Kasim Osgood TEs: Antonio Gates
2011 Cleveland Browns (4-9, 13 starts), HC Pat Shurmur QBs: Colt McCoy RBs: Peyton Hillis, Montario Hardesty, Chris Ogbonnaya WRs: Greg Little, Joshua Cribbs, Mohamed Massaquoi, Jordan Norwood TEs: Ben Watson, Evan Moore, Cameron Jordan, Alex Smith
Are you suggesting that the talent surrounding McCoy is equivalent to that surrounding Brees? Can we at least give McCoy something to work with and make sure we keep it as level and consistent as possible?
Great job with that Anarchy! I feel the same way. I'm not sold the first 21 starts in handcuffs defines the entire career ahead accurately. In 2010 when we had 18 million $ worth of QB alternatives in walking boots - McCoy provided a competitive spark even if brief. We had a 3 game succession vrs playoff caliber opponents like New England, New Orleans and NY where we went 2-1 with the loss being in ot after Stuckey fumbled a completed pass at the NY 30 yard line. I know McCoy's critics will hurry to say his stats weren't wonderful which is true. However, the team seemed to believe they could win those games more than previous games. It at least shows me he can be an Alex Smith if we surround him the same way. Alex Smith was a 1st overall draft pick that took 7 years to look like he did.
I've been asked if McCoy makes everyone around them better like a real QB should do. I usually respond with: Did Drew Brees, Troy Aikman, John Elway, Steve Young make everyone around them better when they were McCoy's age? The only rookie QB drafted by a terrible team I've seen taking them to playoffs during the first 16 starts was Matt Ryan. McNabb did an impressive job of changing a loser into a winner as early as his 2nd year. That was a guy many teams snubbed because they didn't think George DeLeone's veer option offense up at Syracuse had any compatibility with the NFL. Andy Reid remembered Brett Favre's college offense at So Miss was very similar so he projected the skills others rejected for his West Coast offense. The key wasn't to be popular. It was to identify what intangibles he could bring and what ones that could be coached up into the resume McNabb left behind at Philly. Ironically, the City of Brotherly Love brought him nothing but boos on draft day. Man, did they ever know what they were booing.
For what it's worth, Steve Young was 3-16 with the surrounding talent he inherited in Tampa with 11 TDs to 21 INTs and only a 55% completion rate. While nobody there was impressed, the good news was somebody out in San Francisco saw some skills they thought projected well for a West Coast Offense. Can we say weapons like Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Brent Jones helped every bit as much as continuity established from the front offense down to the Head Coach?
If we look at how the 2012 draft order was originally set up before any trades - we're going to see a lot of young QBs on the first 9 teams (many from round 1): 1. Indy 2. St Louis (Bradford - 1st overall) 3. Minnesota (Ponder - 1st round) 4. Cleveland (McCoy - 3rd round) 5. Tampa Bay (Freeman - 1st round) 6. Washington 7. Jacksonville (Gabbert - 1st round) 8. Carolina (Newton - 1st overall) 9. Miami (Henne/Moore)
There's a lot of young QBs above needing more help to win. Ytown asked if McCoy could lead us to a Superbowl very similar to the way Tampa and San Diego fans once asked similar questions about Brees and Young. Here's what I can say about his ability to lead teams when he has had enough favorable matchups to work with in the past: McCoy lead his college team into a National Championship game after overcoming a 4th quarter deficit in the Big 12 Championship. He also led his high school team (Jim Ned) into a state Championship game vrs St Augustine in 2003. Cleveland is the only place the kid didn't win consistently so that's why I would like to see what he could do with better help.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/29/1208:09 AM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
All I asked was what traits you see in McCoy that make you believe that he will be a great QB. I asked what he does well, or even just above average at this point, that instill such confidence that he will be a great QB. What does he do well? Specifically? Without bringing Drew Brees,Tom Brady, or anyone else into the equation, what does Colt McCoy do so well that makes you feel that he has "it", and that he'll be a great QB? There has to be something, yet I cannot get an answer to a simple question.
As far as "a young QB being judged" ..... Brady Quinn was shipped out after fewer starts with equally bad talent. He was a first round pick. Again ...... let me ask ....... what does Colt McCoy do better than Brady Quinn that gives him, a former 3rd round pick, more time than a former first round pick? What specific things does he do well, on the football field, as a quantifiable measure, that make you so sure that he's going to be a star?
I understand if there aren't any specific things ..... because I can't find them either. I don't give a damn about Drew Brees, or Otto Graham, or anyone else ...... because no one will ever 100% equate to another's situation. What does Colt McCoy do well, that instills within you this sense of confidence in his ability to lead this team to a Super Bowl. (or any team, for that matter) What has he done, at the NFL level, that maybe other people can look at to judge as well? Please ... specifically ..... what does he do so well that you are so confident that he'll be such a great QB?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I haven't taken a "stand" on our qb situation? Odd - I'm pretty sure I have said we need better production - and production comes from the TEAM - not JUST the qb. The team, and qb, were put in a terrible situation this year. Brand new O, brand new coach, no off season, injuries to our starting back, a "starting" receiver that got cut and we didn't miss.
While it appears you want to throw the baby out with the bath water - while you appear to blame the quarterback for ALL shortcomings from our offense - I prefer to say "give the kid a real chance before we trade away 3 first round picks for a "might be" qb."
See, I see the sense in looking at the TEAM - not an individual.
Don't back off your previous thousand or so posts - in which you blame Colt, even in a running back thread, or an o line thread. Your thoughts on Colt are well known and documented.
All I asked was what traits you see in McCoy that make you believe that he will be a great QB. I asked what he does well, or even just above average at this point, that instill such confidence that he will be a great QB. What does he do well? Specifically? Without bringing Drew Brees,Tom Brady, or anyone else into the equation, what does Colt McCoy do so well that makes you feel that he has "it", and that he'll be a great QB? There has to be something, yet I cannot get an answer to a simple question.
Brees was brought into the discussion in answer to a previous question as a comparison of the two young QBs.
But, to answer your question more specifically, he can make throws deep enough down the field to complete passes to receivers in stride. I don't care if he can throw the ball 50 yards down field. If we're asking for a completion of a Hail Mary pass, we're beyond hope.
Can he complete passes 20, 25, 30 yards down the field? Yeah, he can! He is capable of completing those passes and allow the receivers get the YAC they are expected to get but can't seem to do in the WCO.
Is anyone asking whether our receivers can get separation from opposing DBs? Or, whether they can catch the ball thrown on their hands or which hit them in the numbers? How about a running back that can hold onto the ball after getting hit?
McCoy can make all the plays required of him. His arm strength isn't a problem and I don't care what the weather conditions are. His reads aren't the problem. The ability of his receivers to read defenses is a problem. In any interviews with receivers, I'd ask them to watch some video of an NFL defense up to the point just before the snap of the ball and for them to tell me what they expect the receivers to do and what the DBs would do. Then I'd continue to play the video and let them see what happened and how they were wrong and how they were right.
Quote: As far as "a young QB being judged" ..... Brady Quinn was shipped out after fewer starts with equally bad talent. He was a first round pick. Again ...... let me ask ....... what does Colt McCoy do better than Brady Quinn that gives him, a former 3rd round pick, more time than a former first round pick? What specific things does he do well, on the football field, as a quantifiable measure, that make you so sure that he's going to be a star?
Quinn had better talent at the position of WR than McCoy has had.
Quote: What does Colt McCoy do well, that instills within you this sense of confidence in his ability to lead this team to a Super Bowl. (or any team, for that matter) What has he done, at the NFL level, that maybe other people can look at to judge as well? Please ... specifically ..... what does he do so well that you are so confident that he'll be such a great QB?
Super Bowl? Really!? High expectations much? Let's just try to improve towards making the playoffs first before we start talking about Super Bowls. All the QBs in Browns history in the Super Bowl era haven't gotten us to that point and you're expecting that of young QB with less than mediocre offensive weapons around him and a HC that is learning on the job?
Way to avoid my most basic questions ..... again .......
So I will ask that which no one is able, or willing to answer.
What is it that Colt McCoy does at anything approaching an elite level?
What does he do well that inspires confidence from you and others?
What talents and abilities has he demonstrated, on the NFL football field, that lead you to believe that he can be a great QB?
Oh, and yes, I do look at things through the lens of whether or not a QB can take us to the Super Bowl ..... because that's the ONLY way to look at a QB in today's passing oriented NFL. If McCoy is an almost average QB, is that good enough? (and I think that he is far, far away from average) I don't believe so ..... unless, of course, we want to be battling it out for 3rd/4th place in our division almost every year. A "pretty good" QB doesn't get it done in today's NFL ..... not on a consistent basis.
Now ..... I have a challenge for you.
Go back and compare and contrast the play of QB and the receivers at the start of the season, and the middle of the season. Then compare/contrast that with the latter third of the games started by McCoy. How did the receivers do at catching really short passes and turning them into moderate plays early on in the season, and how did that change as the season progressed? How did defenses adjust to the constant barrage of 3-5 yard passes, and how did the QB then adjust to those adjustments?
Oh why am I asking anyone for in depth analysis? I can't even get simple, rudimentary questions answered.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I see some very nice throws down the middle of the field here. I see him lay up a nice pass putting the ball where his TE can go up and get it, I see some nice runs, and some scrambling ability. I see him do a good job selling the pass when it's a QB sneak (nice acting) I see a nice pump fake. Oh and I hear some guy killing my ears in that video and thinking wow I bet Colt sings better than that
Quote: Way to avoid my most basic questions ..... again .......
So I will ask that which no one is able, or willing to answer.
What is it that Colt McCoy does at anything approaching an elite level?
What does he do well that inspires confidence from you and others?
What talents and abilities has he demonstrated, on the NFL football field, that lead you to believe that he can be a great QB? et it done in today's NFL ..... not on a consistent basis.
Ytown, I gave you some reasons or intangibles of why I liked the kid. Meanwhile, all you want to see is a QB in the handcuffs of throwing countless slant patterns into a crowded phone booth. Someone brought up that our receivers led the NFL in drops so that doesn't help a young QB does it?
Again, on the last 2 levels McCoy was the QB driving his team to the biggest dance (high school state championship game and BCS National Championship Game). Do I just see a leader and winner because I want to? Your question was about him being able to lead us to the Superbowl Championship. Why do you suppose all of a sudden this is the only team/level that is not possible? Is it the QB or the teammates? How much better were the Browns looking in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2009? For that matter, what was our record compiled by Delhomme and Wallace in 2010 before McCoy took over?
When did it change that young QBs going to bad football teams were supposed to play their best football as pros within the first 21 starts? History shows it's important to remember what some of these guys looked like early on crappy teams: Steve Young, Troy Aikman, John Elway, Drew Brees,Terry Bradshaw, Dan Fouts and countless others. Go check the stats of their early years.
People are going to see what they want to see in this kid on either side of this debate. There's a ton of really smart fans that don't think he has it for this level. Since you're the one that wants reasons why some of us think he can win - you might want to read what people are telling you. You also need to understand how long it can take a 3rd round guy or a Warren Moon or a Joe Theisman or a Kurt Warner or a Jeff Garcia or a Matt Hasselbeck or a Mark Brunnell or a Rich Gannon or a Brad Johnson. I found it particularly interesting that Garcia could make Pro Bowls and playoffs in places like Philly and SF while he looked as bad as the environments in Cleveland and Detroit.
Nobody ever told you McCoy is Drew Brees. They told you he's a young QB going through the same inevitable early struggles on a bad team Drew Brees did. Did those first 3 years of Brees clearly define the ceilings of Superbowl Championship or the numbers he put up as a 32-33 year old? You would have kicked Brees right off your team with 11 TDs to 15 INTs when he contributed to the worst record in the NFL. Isn't a big part of this debate that in order to come to a thorough conclusion - has a franchise provided a young QB the following: weapons, protection, continuity, chemistry, same playbook, etc. In my opinion, the more favorable matchups a passer has the better the passer (see Doug Williams, Steve Young, Jeff Garcia).
I've been hearing Cleveland needs a prototypical first round QB since the franchise traded away Paul Warfield for the rights to draft Mike Phipps at #3 overall. Guess who had to eventually bail us out of such an epic blunder? A little QB named Brian Sipe from round 13 who allegedly didn't have the NFL arm to win or succeed.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/30/1208:12 AM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
Ytown, I know you will continue to beat your head into the wall, but really there is not much that can be said before the fall to prove anything one way or another.
He needs to make a HUGE leap forward in understanding of the offense, in working with his WRs, with when to make throws downfield and when to check down, with how to utilize the entire field.
However, there are plenty of QBs who have made that leap. There are many, many more that were incapable. We won't know until the fall if Colt makes the leap. Simple as that.
Yep, he did OK in carefully managed situations under Mangini.
Those days are past. He's not going to be carefully managed in the WCO. He has to be that focus in the WCO.
In that New England game he went 14-19 for 174 yards, no TD, no INT. (he did have a rushing TD)
Peyton Hillis actually ran for more yards (184) than we passed for. (and had more TDs, 2)
That's not going to happen in the WCO ...... not if he wants to be the long term solution at QB. He can't be an accessory. He has to be the driving force.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Way to avoid my most basic questions ..... again .......
So I will ask that which no one is able, or willing to answer.
What is it that Colt McCoy does at anything approaching an elite level?
I didn't avoid answering your question at all. He's can do everything you need him to do. I'm sure you want him to catch the ball down the field too!
Quote: What does he do well that inspires confidence from you and others?
He does everything well. When the play breaks down (due to coverage), he checks it down like he should or tries to extend the play with his feet.
When you're building a house, you don't pick up a hammer to cut the lumber. You don't pick up a screwdriver to hammer in a nail. You don't use a Phillips screwdriver to turn a flathead screw. He's got to have the proper tools, just like every other QB in the league.
Quote: What talents and abilities has he demonstrated, on the NFL football field, that lead you to believe that he can be a great QB?
He can put the ball where it needs to be down field. He can scramble when necessary. He makes good throws in traffic that his receivers drop.
Now, can you answer some simple questions?
Q: What does bringing in yet another QB to start for the Browns do except to extend the carousel of revolving QBs that the Browns have endured since 1999?
A: The answer to the question is that it brings nothing to the team except pile up another name on the list of QBs that have started for the Browns and we would still suck.
Q: Even if we replace McCoy with another QB this year as you suggest, who will be the starting QB next year?
A: Next year's draft pick, another 8 year veteran that's been a career backup, or another aging immobile free agent.
Q: The year after that?
A: See answer above.
Quote: Oh, and yes, I do look at things through the lens of whether or not a QB can take us to the Super Bowl ..... because that's the ONLY way to look at a QB in today's passing oriented NFL.
What you really mean is that what the fans expect in this instant gratification world we now live in. I know that you know that there is such a thing as the playoffs before you can get to the Super Bowl.
How many 'elite' QBs have never been to the Super Bowl? Would Philip Rivers be elite? He's never been to a Super Bowl. Would Matt Ryan be an 'elite' QB? He's never been. Would Matt Schaub be one? He's never been. Is Michael Vick? He's never been there. Matthew Stafford? Him neither. Tony Romo? Nope. Jake Cutler? Nope, not him either.
Truth is, you're expecting the unrealistic from a 3rd round selection at this stage of his NFL career, especially considering the team that he's on.
Quote: If McCoy is an almost average QB, is that good enough? (and I think that he is far, far away from average) I don't believe so ..... unless, of course, we want to be battling it out for 3rd/4th place in our division almost every year. A "pretty good" QB doesn't get it done in today's NFL ..... not on a consistent basis.
You and I disagree. I think he's above average, even among starting QBs. This isn't a one-man play that you're watching. There is supposed to be a supporting cast on this theater, but there isn't on on this team.
Any QB doesn't get a team to the Super Bowl all by themselves. If that's all it was, we'd just have a contest about who the best QB was and award the team he plays for the Lombardi trophy.
Quote: Now ..... I have a challenge for you.
To finish reading one of your posts? It's not going to be easy... *takes a deep breath*... but see if I can do it!
Quote: Go back and compare and contrast the play of QB and the receivers at the start of the season, and the middle of the season. Then compare/contrast that with the latter third of the games started by McCoy. How did the receivers do at catching really short passes and turning them into moderate plays early on in the season, and how did that change as the season progressed? How did defenses adjust to the constant barrage of 3-5 yard passes, and how did the QB then adjust to those adjustments?
So, you want me to rewatch every game the Browns played last season and break them down? How much are you willing to pay me to do it? That's a full-time job!
Now, if you want my quick synopsis from what I watched last season, taken as a whole, the Browns receivers dropped first down catch, time after time. Catches that could have extended drives. I saw poor play-calling by Shurmur that I hope will be improved with Childress helping him in preparing the game plan.
Quote: Oh why am I asking anyone for in depth analysis? I can't even get simple, rudimentary questions answered.
Give us a synopsis of how the team performed. Of course, I'm sure you'll figure out a convoluted way that every ill that befell the team was somehow Colt's fault.
Colt can make any throw he needs to make, he's more than capable of running out of trouble, he's smart and there isn't anyone on this team that will out work him
But hey,, lets kick him to the curb... we don't need a guy like that...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Well, I'm going to disagree with your in depth analysis of Colt McCoy's abilities.
I do not think that he can make any throw we need him to make. I don't think that he can do everything we need him to do.
Not even close.
We'll see how things wash out in the next couple of years. I bet McCoy will have washed out by then.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
He's not going to be carefully managed in the WCO.
Why wouldn't he be?
I mean Bill Walsh had to manage Joe Montana.
Arron Rodgers is probably an exception to the rule and a few others, but most of the QB's who play this game need to be managed to their strengths to some degree.
Quote: Well, I'm going to disagree with your in depth analysis of Colt McCoy's abilities.
Thanks for that insight. I hadn't discerned that on my own.
Quote: I do not think that he can make any throw we need him to make. I don't think that he can do everything we need him to do.
What throws do you think we need him to make that he can't? Just curious if this is just a toss-away statement or whether you can back that up with anything more substantial.
Quote: Not even close.
We'll see how things wash out in the next couple of years. I bet McCoy will have washed out by then.
Okay, and replacing him with a rookie QB or someone that has more questions than Colt does is the answer? That seems to be your argument.
As for McCoy washing out, we'll have to see like you said. I think that if the Browns give up on him that some other team will smile after acquiring him and Colt will be thanking God for getting away from such a bipolar group of fans.
I have outlined many, many times what I feel are the throws he is weak on. Go back and read what I have written. I'm not rewriting it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
We tried to give up 3 draft picks for RGlll. That didn't work out.
We inquired about Bradford to no avail.
Now what are our options at QB for this coming season?
There are no quality QB's available in FA, (not elite, as you insist they must to be in order to play for us), and the draft already has it's only two potentially elite QB's accounted for.
Oh yeah, we didn't get Manning either.
Now what?
Now that we know Colt is our QB and there's absolutely nothing we can do about it, how about we focus on something besides how bad you think Colt McCoy is or how badly we need an elite QB and Colt ain't it? Because if you've been following the bouncing ball you'll have noticed that we ain't going to be getting one this season. We tried. It didn't work. We're out of options.
Quote: I have outlined many, many times what I feel are the throws he is weak on.
Yes you have. You've exhausted every avenue in describing how bad you think Colt McCoy is. So much in fact that you've been incapable of saying anything new about it for many weeks. Yet, you still go on to tell us how bad you think Colt McCoy is.
Here's how it goes: Colt McCoy is bad. We need an elite QB. There are no elite QB's available to us. That's it.
No amount of "convincing" specifics about how bad Colt McCoy is will change that.
Since we missed out on RGlll and no one else is available it's like you're are now on a renewed mission to convince everyone of how bad Colt McCoy is.
At this point I'm just hoping that in the upcoming season we don't have to listen to film breakdowns and recaps of every game with you outlining just how bad Colt McCoy is.
How about we just watch the games and give the kid a chance with a few new rookie weapons and a year of the WCO under his belt and an offseason of coaching and teaching in the system that he never got last year?
If he sucks he won't be the first one to start out sucking and end up sucking. If he improves dramatically he won't be the first one to start out sucking and then improving dramatically. If he somehow becomes elite he won't be the first one to start out sucking and then becoming elite.
We'll see what we've got. The games will be fun (funner than no games at the minimum) and the world won't end because we weren't able to pull the trigger on an elite prospect this year.
Let's watch the team being built. It took Holmgren 5 years to find Hasslebeck. Hasslebeck took them to the Superbowl. Holmgren has 2 more years to find his QB to equal what happened in Seattle. Did I mention they went to a Superbowl?
Relax it's not the end. In the end everything will be alright. Since everything is not alright then it's not the end.
What I think that we must do is to minimize hi impact on the offense.
I also think that we need to take a QB somewhere ..... because we need to have some option "if" he doesn't get the job done.
The one thing I worry about are situations like we had earlier back in the days just out of expansion.
We had guys like David Patten, who played for one year for us, and then was not kept. he went to New England and played int he Super Bowl that next year.
We had Lance Moore. He was a pre-season guy .... so that's not too horrible ....
We had Andre Davis, who we couldn't find a role for ... you know ... because he sucked here ...... but who went on to contribute to New England, Buffalo, and Houston over the next 5 years.
We had Antonio Bryant, who left us and went on to play with San Francisco and the Bucs, and contributed to both teams.
We have had guys who just couldn't cut it here ..... but who went on to contribute, heavily in some instances, despite being thought of as inadequate here. What if we have that same situation now? I have a feeling, for example, that a guy like Massaquoi would be highly successful if he went to a team like the Steelers, Giants, or other team with a QB who can throw effectively down the field. We could substitute one struggling WR for another because it's not the WR himself who is struggling.
I don't want to see that happen to us even more than it has in the past.
I also love the hypocrisy some people have that I am a "hater" because I think that our QB is at fault more than any other player, and that he need replaced ........ but those who think that out OL, RBs, and receivers are all at fault ....... well they're just rational human beings and, of course, great fans.
I get tired of the whole team being run down at the expense of one player.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Yep, he did OK in carefully managed situations under Mangini.
Those days are past. He's not going to be carefully managed in the WCO. He has to be that focus in the WCO.
In that New England game he went 14-19 for 174 yards, no TD, no INT. (he did have a rushing TD)
Peyton Hillis actually ran for more yards (184) than we passed for. (and had more TDs, 2)
That's not going to happen in the WCO ...... not if he wants to be the long term solution at QB. He can't be an accessory. He has to be the driving force.
Brian Sipe wasn't even the driving force on our Taxi squad in his second season Have some faith
Quote: Good lord, you are calling on me for specifics?
I have outlined many, many times what I feel are the throws he is weak on. Go back and read what I have written. I'm not rewriting it.
Yeah, I am. I don't read every post you write (or anyone else here for that matter). I'm sure you blame him about throwing into traffic (as all QBs do!) and causing the WRs to be concussed. And I'm sure you've written something about picks being thrown (as all QBs do - including those you would claim are better than McCoy). What I hear from you is a lot of things that every QB in the NFL does, even those with many years of experience.
So, list for me the throws that McCoy can't make again. It shouldn't take you long, just the throws. I don't need an explanation following the list. The only throws that I don't think he can make consistently are the 50-yard 'Hail Mary' passes that you seem to want him to make.
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The math simply doesn't add up. 
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