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Why the outrage over THIS death? What's the big deal about Trayvon?
I believe you have the confluence of a number of factors... race being the most obvious (especially considering how hard the media worked to portray Zimmerman as white.. half white... part white... whatever they could get you to buy)... then it sort of grew legs of its own and I think it built with each passing day that Zimmerman wasn't arrested and charged with something.
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A friend of mine sent me a clip last night, and I wish I could remember where it was from .... but the numbers of black on black violence are appalling. There is not nearly as much black on white violence. There is not as much white on black violence. Black people, for the most part, are killed by black people.
They were interviewing a guy in the "hood", and he was describing violence and gang wars and stuff, and the white interviewer was freaking out a bit, and the black guy said to relax, because gangs don't kill white people in the hood. Those are their customers.
Anyway ...... the shame of this whole case is that this was a kid who had both parents actively involved in his life and upbringing. For all we hear about the breakdown of families in the black community, it seems like his parents were working hard to make sure they raised him as well as they could. Then he gets killed for no really good reason at all.
I still think that Zimmerman cannot claim "stand your ground". I mean, can I go to Florida, go to a bar, pick out the biggest guy and start lambasting him ...... smacking him in the head ..... trying to take his woman ...... and throwing things at him ...... then shoot him if he comes after me because I am afraid for my life? That. to me, is the biggest problem in this case. Zimmerman was the instigator of everything. It was his actions that caused the entire confrontation. It was his actions that caused him to fear for his life. I just don't see how he can justify him shooting an unarmed kid.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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In other words... no reason at all except the media needed a story and a bunch of politicians needed some grandstanding.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I think the outrage in most part, for me at least (if you can call it outrage, though its much more of a sadness than anything), is because the police officers who responded to the scene effectively tried the case themselves, in that Zimmerman said he shot Martin in self-defense, and from there they neglected to do their jobs to the best of their abilities. GSR and blood tests should have been done; they were not.
The case the state has to build is whether or not George Zimmerman committed a homicide resulting in the death of Trayvon Martin, and whether that homicide was murder, manslaughter, or some other degree of homicide stated in Florida's criminal statutes. Considering that he was standing over the body of Martin holding a gun, which was face down with a bullet in the chest, and he said "it was self defense", it seems pretty cut and dried to me, but that's not for me to decide.
It is up to Zimmerman and his legal defense team to invoke the "stand your ground" law as grounds for Zimmerman being immune from prosecution (and as I said earlier in this thread, that law should provide for an affirmative defense, not an immunity, IMHO), and its the decision of the judge to decide whether the defense's case has merit, and from there to grant Zimmerman immunity or to allow the prosecution to charge him with a crime. It's not for the the responding office to bring him to the station for questioning and say "hey, 'stand your ground'...my hands are tied here".
I don't personally believe that its any sort of conspiratorial cover-up, but considering that the Sanford PD has covered up a case in the past, I wouldn't necessarily put it beyond the realm of possibility.
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I still think that Zimmerman cannot claim "stand your ground". I mean, can I go to Florida, go to a bar, pick out the biggest guy and start lambasting him ...... smacking him in the head ..... trying to take his woman ...... and throwing things at him ...... then shoot him if he comes after me because I am afraid for my life? That. to me, is the biggest problem in this case. Zimmerman was the instigator of everything. It was his actions that caused the entire confrontation. It was his actions that caused him to fear for his life. I just don't see how he can justify him shooting an unarmed kid.
I don't know if one thing in that paragraph is factual.. I don't know it isn't either.
The thing is, let it play out before condemning people. Innocent until proven guilty was what I thought the law of the land was.. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Trayvon's parents and family friends have tried and convicted zimmerman.
for me, that's just wrong.. let it play out.
I got no skin in the game,, I'm no friend or enemy of Trayvon, his family or his race. I also have nothing against Zimmerman
At some point the truth will surface..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The part about Zimmerman being the instigator is pretty factual by all accounts.
He followed the kid in the first place. What remains to be seen is what happened after this, but Zimmerman wasn't minding his own business when this kid up and attacked him.
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I agree. Zimmerman's actions provoked the incident. If I were walking down the street and someone was following me and reporting my actions on a cell phone, I'd be getting to the bottom of the situation.
That said, the media and politicians have made a total carnival out of this that will result in nothing but bad feelings, more violence and more votes for the libs.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
The part about Zimmerman being the instigator is pretty factual by all accounts.
He followed the kid in the first place. What remains to be seen is what happened after this, but Zimmerman wasn't minding his own business when this kid up and attacked him.
sounds like it, but do you think it's right that instigators like Sharpton and Jackson hang the guy before he's even arrested let alone stand trial.
Like I said, I don't know what's fact or fiction. Depends on what article you read or what broadcast you find most believable.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Exactly... and honestly if he's convicted or not someone is going to think there was a cover up or something going on...
<><
#gmstrong
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j/c CNN says the tape now "sounds different" and Zimmerman did not utter the N word. Siunds different now? Are you kidding me?  NBC and now CNN basically admit to "misreporting" in this case. So...now we have NBC, CNN, whoever said Zimmerman was a white-hispanic, Trayvon's parents, and King Obama himself who have made this a race issue...when there was/is absolutely no evidence to support that claim. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/06/enh...test=latestnews
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Quote:
The part about Zimmerman being the instigator is pretty factual by all accounts.
He followed the kid in the first place. What remains to be seen is what happened after this, but Zimmerman wasn't minding his own business when this kid up and attacked him.
Well he is/was the neighborhood watch captain. It's pretty much his job to NOT mind his own business.
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Self-appointed "neighborhood watch" captain.
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Self-appointed "neighborhood watch" captain.
Well...that's sort of how it goes.
What? He's not allowed to walk the same streets as others? Just because he is a 'self-appointed' watch captain? Ridiculous.
It does not matter if he is a watch captain...self-appointed or not...just like it does not matter that Trayvon was suspended from school due to traces of pot in a baggie.
Too many people, political figures, and news-types are jumping to conclusions.
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The only point of concern for me is this:
Zimmerman is the one who created the conditions that caused the confrontation, and then called self defense for shooting the kid. That's like me walking up to someone, smacking them in the head repeatedly, and then when they turn around to kick my butt, I shoot them in "self defense". I may have had a reason to be fearful for my life, but I created the circumstances that caused the situation that put my life in jeopardy.
I do hope that neighborhood watch people, who do a tremendous service for their neighborhoods, will look carefully at this case and tell their people to stay in their cars, and not to pursue people on foot. There is no need for such action.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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What did Zimmerman do that made it ok for Trayvon to punch him in the face and jump on him on the ground? (If that's what happened.) Follow him?
You keep saying that Zimmerman instigated a fight...and you use examples of one guy (presumably Zimmerman) hitting another in provocation and then Mr. 2nd guy (Trayvon) gets tired of it and fights back. You assume that is what happened in this case and conclude that Zimmerman started it...which he may have...but it does not sound as if Zimmerman ever got physical with Trayvon.
But we don't know that.
I understand your point and agree that the law gets funky as far as who is really acting in self-defense. It would seem that the person "standing their ground" could initially be Mr 2nd guy (as mentioned above)...and if things escalated too far to where the initial aggressor is getting drilled...then the initial aggressor could become the one "standing his ground".
However, the exact same argument can be made in any self-defense claim...meaning which person was actually defending themselves? Florida just has a law called "Stand Your Ground" (SYG) that is just as flawed/useful as is claiming self-defense.
If Zimmerman did something to start the fight, I don't see how the 'stand your ground' defense could apply if a fight ensued at that point. Then the question becomes what level of "something to start a fight" merits the overriding of the SYG law?
However...
If Trayvon was concerned for his safety...perhaps he was warranted in knocking Zimmerman down (IF that's what happened)...once Zimmerman was down, he was no longer a threat to Trayvon (IF that's what happened.)
If Trayvon walks away, does/did he still get shot? Was he walking away...or still on top of Zimmerman when he was shot? (IF he was ever on top of Zimmerman)
Once Trayvon jumped on Zimmerman (IF that's what happened) and was banging Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk (IF that's what happened)...then I would think it clear that Zimmerman was 'standing his ground' in my understanding of the law.
Zimmerman should have stayed in his car...Trayvon should have walked away after knocking Zimmerman down (IF that's what happened). If Zimmerman was walking back to his truck, he was not a threat to Trayvon and should not have been punched to begin with.
I'm not sure we will ever get/believe the facts.
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Regardless of the "who swung first" dilemma, it's pathetic that a dude with 100 lbs. and 10 years on a beanpole HS doper needs to blast him in the chest because "my life was in danger... just standin' my ground". If Trayvon were 21 and roaming about with his own little 9mm and a CCW, that same "standing of ground" would have applied to him. There's a dead body because one guy watched one too many Steven Segal movies and got a hero complex. I just think it was full on irresponsible on his part to create this situation and pursue to the depth he did. Personally, I lean toward manslaughter. It's an unnecessary death with shared responsibility.
The news coverage sounds 100% terrible on this (as with the rest of their material). Why's everyone in this country still tune into Fox, MSNBC, and CNN, though? We have edited videos of explosions and won cases in court to lie to you, why continue to listen to that kind of source ?
End of the day, the very way it started has this creepy, uncomfortable, "you look lost, boy" smell to it.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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Well...you very well may be correct.
Interestingly, if it weren't for the shameful race baiting in this case, we wouldn't even know about the incident.
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Don't forget one of the 3 big networks...NBC. They are the ones who had to apologize for their editing job. The fact is there are no longer any news outlets that can be trusted.It's all about sensationalism to get ratings, readers or hits.
#gmstrong
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Say you're in Martin's shoes, and you're an 18 year old kid ...... it's night ..... and it's raining out ......... and some guy is following you in his car ..... keeps following you and watching you ........... then he parks his car and gets out and starts following you on foot. What are you going to think? Hell, if it were me I'd probably want to know what the hell the guy is doing.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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No doubt...IF that's what happened.
If Zimmerman followed...then went back to his truck...then Trayvon attacked him on the way back to his truck...I'd say Zimmerman was standing his ground.
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Quote:
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Self-appointed "neighborhood watch" captain.
Well...that's sort of how it goes.
What? He's not allowed to walk the same streets as others? Just because he is a 'self-appointed' watch captain? Ridiculous.
It was an unregistered neighborhood watch whose membership comprised one person: him. It's little more than an excuse for vigilantism.
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Maybe...maybe not.
If Trayvon was, in fact, on top of Zimmerman and banging his head on the sidewalk...I'd say Zimmerman was defending himself...regardless of his Neighborhood Watch status.
If Zimmerman shot Trayvon while Trayvon was walking away, I'd say he committed murder...regardless of his Neighborhood Watch status.
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jc.
There is so much we don't know, and a lot we will never know about what REALLY happened that night.
It is up to the prosecuter to determine if the evidence is there to charge Zimmerman or not. It not our call, it is not Al Sharptons call, it's not Trayvon's mothers call.
Our justice system is designed with benefot of the doubt built in, innocent until proven guilty, this keeps your neighbor from killing his wife then blaming you and you going to jail without a fair trial.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I guess we should just go back to burning people at the stake...
If he's guilty, he'll burn, if he's innocent, well, he'll still burn, but hey, what else can we do?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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...if he's innocent, well, he'll still burn, but hey, what else can we do?
Punish and vilify the people who created the stink in the first place. It's not like we don't know who THEY are and what they did.
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...if he's innocent, well, he'll still burn, but hey, what else can we do?
Punish and vilify the people who created the stink in the first place. It's not like we don't know who THEY are and what they did.
Wait, you mean people should be held responsible for things they report?
Come on now, this is America!
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Maybe...maybe not.
If Trayvon was, in fact, on top of Zimmerman and banging his head on the sidewalk...I'd say Zimmerman was defending himself...regardless of his Neighborhood Watch status.
If Zimmerman shot Trayvon while Trayvon was walking away, I'd say he committed murder...regardless of his Neighborhood Watch status.
ytowns point, and one that I agree with, is even if Trayvon was on top of him banging his head into the ground, how did it get that far? There are still quite a few questions that will probably never be answered because only one person with a story to tell is still alive.
That is the biggest question that I have is how much did Zimmerman instigate the confrontation. If Zimmerman was following him closely, shouting, brandishing his gun, etc.. then technically I would think it was the kid who was standing his ground.
Based on what I've heard (realizing some of it is probably true and some not) I still can't rationalize a way in which Zimmerman isn't at least partly responsible for this escalating the way it did.
yebat' Putin
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It was an unregistered neighborhood watch whose membership comprised one person: him. It's little more than an excuse for vigilantism.
Some people fail to remember there had been a rash a recent burglaries in this neighborhood. Over-zealous? Time will tell. But, I didn't mind everyone keeping their eyes peeled and being very diligent in watching each others' houses when my neighborhood was being hit. that is why we now have neighborhood watch.
"My signature line goes here."
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I didn't forget that at all. If they had wanted to start a neighborhood watch, by all means go ahead. Go to the Sanford PD's website and check out the section on neighborhood watches. Check out what it says in bold on the first page: (to paraphrase) "You are not to pursue a suspicious person. That is the duty of the police."
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But did it say that a year ago? 
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Quote:
Quote:
Maybe...maybe not.
If Trayvon was, in fact, on top of Zimmerman and banging his head on the sidewalk...I'd say Zimmerman was defending himself...regardless of his Neighborhood Watch status.
If Zimmerman shot Trayvon while Trayvon was walking away, I'd say he committed murder...regardless of his Neighborhood Watch status.
ytowns point, and one that I agree with, is even if Trayvon was on top of him banging his head into the ground, how did it get that far? There are still quite a few questions that will probably never be answered because only one person with a story to tell is still alive.
That is the biggest question that I have is how much did Zimmerman instigate the confrontation. If Zimmerman was following him closely, shouting, brandishing his gun, etc.. then technically I would think it was the kid who was standing his ground.
Based on what I've heard (realizing some of it is probably true and some not) I still can't rationalize a way in which Zimmerman isn't at least partly responsible for this escalating the way it did.
I think you and YTown have really hit on the point here.
To me, the 'Stand Your Ground' defense is just like the 'self-defense' defense.
But who is doing the 'defending'? It is much deeper than who started it - which is exactly what all three of us (and others) are saying. It's a tragedy and now a sticky wicket
However, whatever it was that Zimmerman did - short of brandishing his gun - the threat was over once Trayvon knocked him to the ground.
Again...a ton of assumptions in here. At this point, my posts are really just generally about the law and its interpretations and not at all about Trayvon & Zimmerman since I have absolutely zero facts on the case.
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Just looking at the document, there's no way of telling. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/NWProgramHandbook.pdfThe line I was referring to is on page 2 (PDF page 3, including the cover page), not page 1 as I said. It is repeated on PDF page 15, point 10 I believe.
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However, whatever it was that Zimmerman did - short of brandishing his gun - the threat was over once Trayvon knocked him to the ground.
Ok, I'm a little confused. How does one person getting knocked to the ground mean the threat is over?
yebat' Putin
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However, whatever it was that Zimmerman did - short of brandishing his gun - the threat was over once Trayvon knocked him to the ground.
Ok, I'm a little confused. How does one person getting knocked to the ground mean the threat is over?
If all Zimmerman did was follow Trayvon...and got close enough for Trayvon to be concerned for his safety...and Trayvon knocked him to the ground...at that point Trayvon then had the opportunity to get away...but chose to further the altercation...then he was no longer acting in self defense.
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Ok, I understand.. I disagree, but I understand. If somebody is following me and gets that close, especially if I know or strongly suspect they have a gun, just knocking them down doesn't end the fight. The fight isn't over until I have secured the gun or rendered them incapable of shooting me in the back as I run away. And if Zimmerman got that close to him that he felt threatened and close enough to knock down, the I still feel Zimmerman was the original aggressor. I'm not going to write a big disclaimer, but you will note there are a lot of "IFs" in there. 
yebat' Putin
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If it happened like that I would call Zimmerman the aggressor.
However if it happened like Zimmerman claims that he was following Trayvon, as the neighborhood watch seeing someone he felt was suspicious, lost sight of him, was told by the dispatcher to not follow him, said ok and was heading back to his vehicle, and then Trayvon appeared in front/behind him. Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem, Zimmerman said NO. Trayvon then said "Now you do" and then proceeded to attack Zimmerman. If it happened like that then I would say Zimmerman was standing his ground.
At this point I'll wait for the Prosecutor to come out with whether or not they will charge him and if they do then I'll wait for the trial and all the evidence is out in the open. Till then it's a media circus with editing 911 calls and constantly show pictures of Trayvon from a few years ago and not one of him being a 6' 17yo. And calling Zimmerman a "White" Hispanic just to insight race baiting.
If Zimmerman hunted down this young black man because he disliked blacks then I hope he gets the death penalty. But if Trayvon decided to confront and beat Zimmerman because he didn't like Zimmerman following him then I'm not going to blame Zimmerman for protecting himself. Either way it's a travesty as to what happened. JMO
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Except that Florida state law says that Martin would not have to retreat, even if the opportunity presented itself, if he reasonably believed that Zimmerman was going to hurt or kill him. He would be permitted to act with force, including deadly force, to prevent the commission of a forcible felony against himself.
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Just to clarify something that keeps getting mentioned....someone saying "we don't need you to do that" is not the same as "don't do that".
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Except that Florida state law says that Martin would not have to retreat, even if the opportunity presented itself, if he reasonably believed that Zimmerman was going to hurt or kill him. He would be permitted to act with force, including deadly force, to prevent the commission of a forcible felony against himself.
And having someone bang your head against concrete is also a forcible felony that one could defend themselves against. Many people look at the SYG as a one or other, but it is possible that both had the right to SYG. Sadly, usually only one comes away.
DC: you said
"especially if I know or strongly suspect they have a gun". I don't think this should play in this case, unless they know Zimmerman displayed or mentioned he was carrying.
Other thoughts:
Another scenario that we've discussed on another forum, was Zimmerman finding Trayvon and they exchanged words, at which time Zimmerman says something along the lines of "We'll let the cops deal with it" and then begins to return to the street so the police can find them, at which time Trayvon doesn't want the cops involved and gets upset and pushes or punhces Zimmerman, and it escalates from there.
This is the problem. We know Trayvon was walking in the neighborhood, we know Zimmerman was trying to keep an eye on him and even follow him. And we know at one point they were in a scuffle on the ground. What we don't know is what lead to the scuffle and who innitiated contact. 2 very important details, that in the public forum seem to not matter as much as the fact that the kid is dead and Zimmerman pulled the trigger.
Many seems to think Trayvon could not have done anything to instigate physical contact, and it's possible he didn't BUT we don't know that, just like we don't know if Zimmerman started the physical contact. The only ones that know are Zimmerman and Martin, and sadly, Martin can't tell us his side of the story.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Quote:
And having someone bang your head against concrete is also a forcible felony that one could defend themselves against.
In some circumstances, yes. In this particular instance, we'll probably never know. SYG can only be invoked in the prevention of a "forcible felony". Only aggravated assault is a forcible felony, and is defined as either "assault with a deadly weapon" or "assault with the intent to commit a felony".
Quote:
Many people look at the SYG as a one or other, but it is possible that both had the right to SYG.
Only if the initial aggressor has exhausted all means of retreat or "clearly indicates" that he is no longer going to use force against the other party.
Quote:
unless they know Zimmerman displayed or mentioned he was carrying.
Question, since you, as I recall, have firearms and a concealed carry permit: if you are legally carrying a gun, are you permitted to announce it to a would-be assailant as a means of deterrent? That is, if you suspected that someone was, for example, going to mug you on the street, are you allowed to tell them, "I'm carrying a gun and will shoot you if you attack me" or even simply tell them that you're armed? Are you allowed to expose the gun to thwart an attack?
I also have to stand corrected on a point I made earlier in the discussion; the Florida statute includes arrest under the definition of "criminal prosecution", and as such, the police officer(s) would indeed have to have believed that the use of deadly force was not justified in order to make an arrest at the scene.
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