|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
FIVE players they like? wow..
is that excluding Luck and RG3? lol..
I don't think it includes them since it's assumed that they'll be gone before the #4 pick comes around.
I think they like a number of players and note that it implied that they were players on the offensive side of the ball.
I can see that two of them are OL, Kalil and DeCastro. Looking at the remainder of the potential offensive targets, there are the obvious two in Blackmon & Richardson. Since it stated that the players would contribute to a McCoy led team, that leaves the final player. I suspect that it would have to be either the next best OL (either Reiff or Jonathan Martin) or Michael Floyd.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 Likes: 87
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 Likes: 87 |
Quote:
Quote:
FIVE players they like? wow..
is that excluding Luck and RG3? lol..
I don't think it includes them since it's assumed that they'll be gone before the #4 pick comes around.
I think they like a number of players and note that it implied that they were players on the offensive side of the ball.
I can see that two of them are OL, Kalil and DeCastro. Looking at the remainder of the potential offensive targets, there are the obvious two in Blackmon & Richardson. Since it stated that the players would contribute to a McCoy led team, that leaves the final player. I suspect that it would have to be either the next best OL (either Reiff or Jonathan Martin) or Michael Floyd.
Quote:
"We're most likely going to stay at No. 4 and we know we'll get a really good player there,'' he said. "But there's about five guys we really like, so we would consider trading down -- but probably only to five, six, seven or eight.''
So excluding Luke and Griffen there are but 6 selections between 3 and 8, so if we also exclude who we think the Vikings or another team may trade up for [Kalil], that brings us down to picks 4 - 8. (5) selections for 5 players that we like at the top of the Draft, so
I would think that we can. Safely say that Claiborne and Blackmon would be 2 of those 5 and with a trade down (yes) Richardson ... That brings us to 2 (?)
I'll guess that those 2 could be;
DE Melvin Ingram (yeah I know YTBF) and perhaps they think that Jonathan Martin is worth a top 8 pick to be our future RT.
I know that in some circles his stock seems to have taken a downward trend and I have mocked him at 22, but at one time there was talk of him being the most pro ready OT in the Draft, which I think is debatable, with a move to the right side, but the RT position I think has evolved to where you really need a good pass protector on both corners of your OL and that could mean that the running game could suffer some, but if your using the short passes [WCO] as a substitute for the running game, then it won't be missed quite as much as it would otherwise in a cave man run first offense.
But then there are guys like Floyd and Reiff, who some see moving to OG?
I'm not so sure he isn't the 2nd best LT, but perhaps Martin is considered a better RT option.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
1) If they wanted Richardson and thought that they needed to jump TB for him
2) If someone fell in love with Claiborne or Blackmon
3) If Minnesota didn't take Kalil, I think we'd have multiple offers, including St Louis.
I think 8 would probably be in consideration too, so 4 -8 would be the 5 players (under the assumption that the Brown's brass is thinking Kalil at 3 is a done deal)
The problem with that thinking is that the Browns would be targeting players like possibly Dontari Poe or Quinton Coples that they aren't likely to take.
I see that the 5 players (excluding Luck & Giffin and LT Kalil) are probably players that the Browns figure that they could target if they traded back, considering the other players that they aren't targeting being selected by other teams.
I suspect that the Browns are looking to trade back but aren't willing to drop as far as they did when trading with Atlanta last year.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 Likes: 87
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 Likes: 87 |
Quote:
the Browns would be targeting players like possibly Dontari Poe or Quinton Coples that they aren't likely to take.
Poe makes little sense we have two starting DT's already, that I think we like and man I sure hope that Coples isn't one of those 5. I know teams see a big upside with him, but I think that he could be a big bust too.
Too risky for my blood.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,194 Likes: 209
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,194 Likes: 209 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I would feel much better if we traded down and picked up another 2nd round pick,
I don't know that I would want to trade down and get another 2nd round pick this year. With the 4 extra compensatory picks (which cannot be traded so we cannot use them to move up) we will be drafting a lot of players. If we trade down I want a 1st next year or I don't do it unless I have a potential trade down with our #22 lined up for a 1st next year and I want an extra 2nd to "replace" the #22.
I absolutely would and to make room, I'd package some players with some of those picks and move up the draft.
We will definitely be active during the draft. I am sure that we will package picks to move up and that we will trade picks for picks in next year's draft. Like or hate the draft outcome one thing is for sure, Browns fans wil not be bored.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
Quote:
the Browns would be targeting players like possibly Dontari Poe or Quinton Coples that they aren't likely to take.
Poe makes little sense we have two starting DT's already, that I think we like and man I sure hope that Coples isn't one of those 5. I know teams see a big upside with him, but I think that he could be a big bust too.
Too risky for my blood.
That's why I wrote 'The problem with that thinking was that it could have the Browns targeting them. I don't see the Browns targeting either Poe or Coples. We already have two fine DTs in Rubin & Taylor and we have a top-notch LDE and just signed Rucker to a 5-year deal. I don't see us taking Coples either, but they are likely to be targeted by say Jacksonville or Carolina. I don't see them being targeted by the Browns and therefore, 4 (Browns current selection spot) + 5 (targeted players) = 9 + 2 minimum (potential top DL players that are not targeted by the Browns but likely to be targeted by other teams drafting high) = 11. One might add another player or two to the list and Browns won't be targeting who could be targets for other teams and the Browns could be looking to trade back anywhere from 5 to 12 or 13 and still think that they have a good chance of getting a player that they want.
It could also be that the Browns put it out there that they have a number of players that they would be targeting and really intend to trade back quite a bit but want to get as much for the trade back as they can, explaining that the Browns are taking the risk of losing out on one of the players that they like to make a move back with the trade partner.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
We will definitely be active during the draft. I am sure that we will package picks to move up and that we will trade picks for picks in next year's draft. Like or hate the draft outcome one thing is for sure, Browns fans will not be bored.
It should be an interesting three days and the start of it is just a month away!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 Likes: 87
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 Likes: 87 |
Oh I guess I miss understood you.
I guess that I could see another team liking to move up for them, so that makes sense.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
I'm fine with Colt for one more year too. I don't think this team is ready to really challenge yet so it's one more year to stock the cupboards and be ready when we do find our guy (and you never know how or who we can get*).
I want to trade down with St Louis, pick up an extra 2nd rounder and take Richardson with #6 (assuming that trade is there and he's still available).
If we stay at #4, whomever they pick will shore up an area. We can't fix three spots with one pick so just take BPA and address the other areas later. I think you could make a great case for all three even if they were rated as equals (Claiborne, Blackmon and Richardson).
*Who would have guessed Cutler or Manning would be switching teams the year before they did? Who knows, maybe <Team X> and <QB Y> start fighting and have to be split up. And it's too early to even project next years draft for QBs.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
"We're most likely going to stay at No. 4 and we know we'll get a really good player there,'' he said. "But there's about five guys we really like, so we would consider trading down -- but probably only to five, six, seven or eight.''
So now that the guy they REALLY wanted is gone, they are down to five guys which represent the next tier of players. Heckert is willing to trade down with the next three or four teams below us, but when you start getting into the third tier of players, forget it, he ain't budging.
Got it.
Quite frankly, if we're going to wade into a gunfight (the NFL season) wielding a pocket-knife (McCoy) then I'm ALL for trading down and stock-piling as many quality picks this year and next year as we can. This next year is a lost season already, so if we're going to go all-in with this rebuilding thing then damnit...GO ALL IN!
While possible, it's a huge stretch to envision the Vikings taking anyone other than Kalil, but if they somehow manage to blow the pick and take Blackmon instead, whoa-baby, the bidding war is on, and we'll come out smelling like roses.
But back to reality...
St. Louis...you want Blackmon? Come and get him. We'll drop to #6, grab #33 and be on our way.
How about you, Jacksonville? You want Blackmon? For the cost of your two 3rd rounders he's wearing blue next year.
Miami? Man, you're in a tough spot. That's 4 spots you want us to drop down. Do you REALLY want Tannehill or Blackmon that badly? Ok, next year's 1st rounder it is.
At one point earlier in the year, I wanted no part of trading down, but the playing field has changed. We're not trying to win this year, and even if we were trying to win, we're not going to. We might as well just bite the bullet and slide down a few picks in order to add a future starter right now.
Heckert has sent a clear message that our pick is available for the highest bidder. Let's just hope that some team decides they love a guy they can't live without...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,984 Likes: 361
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,984 Likes: 361 |
Man, I hope that one of your scenarios comes true ....... but the way things have gone so far, the Vikings will trade down to 5 or so and pick up a king's ransom, and no one will want our pick ......... I dunno ..... no one seems to think that we'll be any good this year, in year 3 of the rebuild ..... and with multiple high picks, a ton of draft picks, and a ton of cap space. The corner must be turned someday. When does that day come for us? It seems like almost every team that was bad when we came back has had a turn at being good for at least a little stretch of time. We've had 2 kinda sorta good years ....... but then the floor fell out. Since 1999, teams have had the following number of losing years: New England: 1 Jets: 3 Miami: 6 Buffalo: 9 Pittsburgh: 2 Baltimore: 3 Cincinnati: 6 Cleveland: 11 Houston 6 (since 2002) Tennessee: 4 Jacksonville: 7 Indy: 2 (and one of those got them the #1 pick in a superstar QB draft)  Raiders: 7 Denver: 3 San Diego: 3 KC: 7 *Sigh* I'm not even going to do the NFC ..... the AFC is depressing enough. Now some of those teams had .500 season .... but at least they weren't losers in almost every single year they've played since we came back. Hell, Houston has played 3 fewer seasons than us during that time frame and they have as many winning seasons as we have, plus they have 2 .500 seasons. Someday this team has to become a winner ........ doesn't it? When do we finally start to turn the corner and show improvement?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
For what it's worth, I can't see the Vikings trading down. I believe they absolutely have to have either Kalil or Blackmon, and if they trade, they probably lose out on both. That would mean we'd either be able to trade down with a team that wants Kalil, or we'd stand a great chance of taking Blackmon, and I don't believe the Vikings would take the chance.
I'd like to work on something you typed man: Quote:
no one seems to think that we'll be any good this year, in year 3 of the rebuild ....
I've never talked about it, but I view it slightly different. I believe we're in year three of Holmgren's regime, but only in year two of the rebuild.
The Walrus blew it by keeping Mangini and the systems in place. That became a truly wasted year. We then blew it all up last year, switching schemes on both sides of the ball.
We're in this position because of all the dopes named Savage, Crennel, Davis, and Mangini. They wasted pick after pick after pick with only a few hits scattered in. And let's face facts here...with McCoy under center, no team is going to be considered a playoff contender. So we're going into year 3 of Holmgren's leadership with some great draft picks but a bare cupboard. No, we're not winning this year. Heckert's "signings" have spoken that message loudly and clearly.
We're still in full-on rebuild mode. Trading down makes the most sense here, but only so far IMHO.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,984 Likes: 361
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,984 Likes: 361 |
Meh, I think that a rebuild starts the year the new guys take over. Both Holmgren and Heckert were here in 2009, and Heckert was finding guys for this team ...... and he was finding guys that didn't even fit. (Like Mitchell) However, he didn't draft a single scheme specific player ..... a 3-4 DE, or OLB, for example.
The offense rebuild started with signing a guy like Watson, evaluating the WR and other positions, signing a guy like Hillis, (who should have been a great WCO RB with his running and receiving ability) and so on.
These moves would likely have been made even if they had hired Shurmur that year. They had to find out what they had. The only difference would be that they would have had to change over the defense as well, and been unprepared for that. We probably would have only won 2 games that year, if that, as a result. I can't think of one single guy that Heckert drafted who was scheme specific to Mangini's schemes.
Thus, the generic rebuild began. The 2nd year, the specific rebuild began, with scheme specific DL being brought in. Let's face it, that was the bulk of what they did last year on defense. They also brought in Young, who was largely a non-factor, they started Adams, who was already here, and they started Haden and Brown, who were already here. They brought in no new LB into the scheme, running with what Mangini ran the year before.
So ..... they had Mitchell, Rubin, Fujita, DQ, Gocong, Haden, Ward, Adams, and Brown ...... who were here the year before ..... and they added Taylor and Sheard to the defense. To me that's a fine tuning and not a tear down. The secondary runs the same types of coverages whether in a 4-3 or 3-4. They either play man, or a zone. 2 of our 3 LB came from 4-3 backgrounds. The biggest question, beyond how many sacks the best pass rusher on the team would get, was how would Rubin do in the 4-3. Given his ability to penetrate in the 3-4 from the nose, it seemed likely that he would be able to adapt.
On offense, what did we add? We lost Steinbach to injury, and another OL to retirement. We still had Thomas and Mack, to go along with the eternally injured Pashos from the year before. We had McCoy, who was here ..... to go along with Hillis, and Massaquoi, Robiske, Cribbs, Watson, ....... and they added the 2 young linemen and Marecic to the equation. After Robiske did almost nothing they moved Little into his spot. McCoy was supposed to flourish in this offense.
Now a lot of stuff happened ..... limited training camp and all ..... but other teams went from crap to success. Hell, the Bengals did. They actually improved offensively with a rookie QB over the previous year with a former Pro Bowler.
I maintain that the main reason we are still in rebuild mode if because we do not have the franchise level QB in place. It is the one failing we have had since1995.(well that and non-existence)
In my time as a fan I have seen Brain Sipe and Bernie Kosar as good QBs.
I saw DA have one great year.
Other than that, I've seen some of the crappiest QB play imaginable. I am sick and tired of it. Further, we aren't going to miraculously improve this team until and unless we find rthe answer at the QB position. "Good enough" just isn't. This is the whole reason this particular group was brought in ...... to finally find "the guy" at QB, and to then win a lot of games with him.
3 years in ..... and we have ........ Colt McCoy.
Good enough isn't. It's time for more than baby steps. if these guys can't get this team turned around in 3 years ... or 4 years ..... then when? How long do we wait? How much more patience can be expected from us?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,579 Likes: 815
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,579 Likes: 815 |
I do agree with Toad that the rebuild started last year, but I am with you, Homie and Heck on on the hook for year 3.
I see the trade down as well. Just add some picks to get some foundation type players...and a WR isn't one of them, especially with a crap QB.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
"They tried" is all I can say to you...what do you want them to do? Spend 4x1st rounders to go up 2 spots? Tell the Coach to lose more games?
At this point "waiting it out" is probably the smartest thing to do...I'd be ok with a Tannehil gamble at #4 or a Weeden at #22 or #37, especially if we can land some extra Top 3 ropund picks in this draft...but other than those 2...there'S nothing left in the draft and FA to improve the QB position...I do question why they didn't bring in a vet like Campbell or Orton who signed for a much worse situation than they would have had here...and let's be real, they wouldn't have been long term solutions either
I for my part am happy to know that they at least recognized our biggest need and tried to do something bold...nepotism and the next Al Davis got in the way....after this draft the QB market in drafts should be much better for teams like us as many teams have picked their young QBs in the last drafts, hopefully making it easier to trade up to get one
and speaking of turnarounds....many were of the Browns 07 variety...TB crushed back, so did KC...let's see how Cincy looks this season...I want a real rebuild like they did in Detroit and it took some seasons and 1 part of it, their D, still isn't fixed yet
At least we have a team worth rooting for with some young talent with lots of room for improvement....for me, that's a huge upgrade...I'd rather watch if Marecic, Cameron, Skrine etc fail instead of knowing 100% that Robert Royal, Ventrone, Barton and Poteat never had it and will lead to a crap season...did Sheard, Pinkston or Patterson surprise you last season? See, at least that's what I'm looking for next season...some more emerging building blocks...step for step getting better instead of a never has been being replaced by another never has been
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
Someday this team has to become a winner ........ doesn't it? When do we finally start to turn the corner and show improvement?
When we stop calling for heads of the front office and coaches (yeah, I have been guilty of calling for Shurmur's head) and just let them do their jobs.
I think it'll help the team with Childress in the mix to help Shurmur.
Let's take a look at the front office and coaching staffs.
President: Mike Holmgren (Not a great president, but his football mind can't seriously be questioned)
GM: Tom Heckert (a high quality and successful GM in Philly)
HC: Pat Shurmur (a rookie HC but served as OC and various other coaching positions)
OC: Brad Childress (an experienced HC and OC with a fair share of success)
DC: Dick Jauron (an experienced HC and DC with a fair share of success)
Shurmur is the least experienced person of the bunch but there is a LOT of experience surrounding him and they have boatloads of knowledge to provide to him.
Let's just let them implement their rebuilding process and see what kind of product they create. I know, it's taking a while and it looks like regression at some points, but we've got to let them make the team.
With the number of picks we have (excluding the compensatory ones - because they can't be traded at all), I fully expect that there will be some serious movement by the Browns during the draft.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,984 Likes: 361
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,984 Likes: 361 |
KC got their QB hurt, and still wound up 7-9. Tyler Palko isn't going to take anyone to the playoffs.
Tampa Bay's always been a yo-yo, even in the Gruden days. I dunno why. They go from Super Bowl Champions in 2002, to 7-9 in 2003. Then they go 5-11, 11-5, 4-12, 9-7, 9-7, 3-13, 10-6, and then 4-12 last year.
Of course they did go through QBs like water too.
The really weird thing about them is when you look at their defensive rankings year by year. Usually a great defense stays great, and a really bad defense takes time to improve ..... but since 2002 they've gone 1, 5, 5, 1, 17, 2, 9, 27, 17, and 30.
They had top 5 defenses in 2003 and 2004 and still wound up 7-9 and 5-11. Weird. They are Jeckle and Hyde.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,841 Likes: 107
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,841 Likes: 107 |
Might be reading too much into Heck's casual remark. Sounds like if we ARE OK with McCoy, some of the dreft is shaping up as to how much he needs to be propped up to get him more effective (i.e., TD's). He needs a deep receiver who scores, a back who scores, better protection, and such. But we have a number of picks to help at least a few of these. I do NOT expect him to say derisive things to MKC. Tired of crystal balling every burp. With the comps, we should be leveraged to get a bundle this year in this draft. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,607 Likes: 239
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,607 Likes: 239 |
Quote:
You know I have never even considered getting Ingram.. hmm.. he is a beast. Our offense though IS a mess.. lol.. we gotta get a blue-chip offensive star with our first pick. but if he can net us a few more picks in the 2nd.. i'm down for it.
I'd be like Rucker who? 
see my sig  He has been on mine for a few weeks- maybe a month now.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,493 Likes: 146
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,493 Likes: 146 |
Quote:
I've never talked about it, but I view it slightly different. I believe we're in year three of Holmgren's regime, but only in year two of the rebuild.
The Walrus blew it by keeping Mangini and the systems in place. That became a truly wasted year. We then blew it all up last year, switching schemes on both sides of the ball.
toad...Holmgren's first year, keeping Mangini, was not a wasted year because the rebuilding project started in 2010, not 2011.
One of the first moves Holmgren made was to clean out the front office and fill open positions such as GM...hiring Heckert, then adding Bryan Wiedmeier (Bus. Ops) and Gill Haskell (adviser).
Another key area that needed to be rebuilt was the scouting department, which began when Holmgren took over in Dec 2009.
Heckert started rebuilding the player roster via the draft in 2010, with Joe Haden, T.J. Ward, Hardesty, McCoy and Lauvao.
No, Holmgren did not jump right in and rip everything up in 2010...choosing to use the 2010 season to assess Mangini and his coaching staff and it gave Heckert a year to assess the roster Mangini had just reworked in 2009.
While the average fan looks at Holmgren's first year as wasted year because he kept Mangini and the coaching staff, there were many areas of the franchise that Holmgren was addressing.
The rebuilding of the team and franchise began in Jan. 2010 shortly after Holmgren accepted the job.
Last edited by mac; 03/27/12 08:01 AM.
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212 |
Quote:
St. Louis...you want Blackmon? Come and get him. We'll drop to #6, grab #33 and be on our way.
You are much to generous. I doubt we trade with the rams. That bridge was burned the second the rams dealt with the skins instead of us (if what has been reported that we offered them is accurate)
If the rams call about moving up, the price starts with next years first (either theirs or the skins) and will require a second this year. This seems about right. Afterall, they wanted 3 firsts and more for us to move up two spots, so half that value should be about right for them to move up...... So in the end, the rams would have been better off taking our RGIII offer- so NO, i count the rams out as a potential trading back partner. Unless they give up a first next year and a second this year....
I think the browns need to start oohing and ahhhing about Tannehill, and see if the Dolphins will get excited enough to move up, either with us or the vikes. If we are at 4, and Kalil is sitting there, the phone should be ringing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
The Rams/Skins trade is history. It's over. I would be willing to trade with St. Louis tomorrow if if made us a better team this and next year. If the offer is good and we can drop to six, get it done. You can't hold a grudge.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,528 Likes: 6
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,528 Likes: 6 |
If i can get a 2nd I would do it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,125 Likes: 222
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,125 Likes: 222 |
Quote:
If i can get a 2nd I would do it.
If Kalil is there at #4...I want a 2nd this year and a first next year.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
j/c http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/03/cleveland_browns_coach_pat_shu_17.htmlQuote:
PALM BEACH, Fla. -- Browns coach Pat Shurmur said here today that "we're moving forward'' with Colt McCoy as the Browns starting quarterback
"At this point, he's our quarterback,'' said Shurmur. "We're looking forward to him being our guy and I'm looking forward to seeing him improve. We believe he has a chance to be a fine player in this league.''
Of course, the Browns haven't ruled out drafting a quarterback that will come in and compete for the starting job, including Texas A&M's Ryan Tannehill and Oklahoma State's Brandon Weeden.
The Browns will be represented at Tannehill's Pro Day on Thursday, but Shurmur said he wasn't certain he'll be in attendance. The Browns will also bring all of the big-name prospects to Berea for visits.
But for now, they're throwing their support behind McCoy, who was forced to learn the West Coast offense without a coaching staff last season.
"I want to see him have an offseason,'' said Shurmur. "It takes awhile to really learn an offense. Now he's had a chance to look at all of the cut-ups and have a better understanding of it.''
Shurmur said he expects all of the offensive players to take it up a notch in their second year in the system. He said it's also "fair to say'' that he didn't know his personnel very well last season, having met some of them for the time on the first day of training camp.
What's more, McCoy's supporting cast was hampered by injuries, including a broken foot on the part of receiver Mohamed Massaquoi.
"He started the year with nagging injuries and we couldn't see the best of Mo because of that,'' said Shurmur. "I'm hopeful he can (make a splash this year). He has the talent.''
The Browns were also down to their fourth and fifth running backs thanks to injuries to Brandon Jackson, Peyton Hillis and Montario Hardesty.
"I'm looking forward to Hardesty being a healthy player and I'm looking for Brandon Jackson to do what he did in Green Bay.''
Shurmur said he also expects more production out of his young receivers, Greg Little and Norwood, and he hopes to use Carlton Mitchell more this year.
As for Oklahoma State receiver Justin Blackmon, whom the Browns might take at No. 4, Shurmur said, "I'm very impressed with him. I know a lot about him already. He gets in the end zone and he catches the ball in traffic.''
He said he's not concerned about the fact Blackmon measured a shade under 6-1. "He plays big,'' said Shurmur.
A few other quick hits from Shurmur at the annual coaches' breakfast at the owners meetings:
* He praised Akron native Whitney Mercilus, who will visit the Browns on Sunday. "He's an outstanding player,'' said Shurmur. Mercilus, who could be a candidate with their No. 22 pick, led the nation with 16 sacks and nine forced fumbles for Illinois in 2011.
* On free agent guard Eric Steinbach, who was released two weeks ago: "I think it's realistic he could be back.''
* On running backs David Wilson of Virginia Tech and Isaiah Pead of Cincinnati, whom the Browns will visit with before the draft: "These guys are getting a lot of production. It's fair to say'' you can find a good back in later rounds. "It's a critical position.''
* He still isn't warming up to the Wildcat -- despite the Jets planning to showcase Tim Tebow in it -- and says "Josh (Cribbs') best position on offense is wide receiver.''
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,528 Likes: 6
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,528 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
"At this point, he's our quarterback,'' said Shurmur.
Not a ringing endorsement.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
yeah, when I hear him say that, all i can think is "we're drafting Tannehill." 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
It's the sequel of "He battled"  They and we are stuck with him..and they're not even trying to hide it...the cat is out of the bag anyway, so who are they going to fool? I'm thankful they're not trying to spin it, although they're plenty of homers who somehow still believe in Colt...it's starting to mirror the Tebow situation in Denver Draft Weeden in the 2nd or Tannehill if he gets past Miami and give McCoy until the bye week to show something...anything...he's incredibly lucky to even get this 3rd chance
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
mirror the Tebow situation in Denver? there are billboards of Colt in Cleveland? Colt jersey's are flying off the shelves so fast that local retailers cannot keep up with demand? Colt is going to be terrible for 3.5 quarters of every game but then lead the Browns on comeback efforts to go on a winning streak before crashing back down to Earth? and the most important: Colt is going to beat the Steelers in OT of a playoff game? ---------------------------------- perhaps all of that should be in purple  anyways, while I think it is foolish to "expect" Colt to be a great QB at this time, I also have not seen anyone who expects as much. I have seen some who expect that if we get a better team around him, then he'll perform better. Now, how much better is the question. Can he be league average (Cassell/Fitzpatrick level)? I don't think that is out of the question (I really hope that is not out of the question). we know that our FO thought RGIII was better than Colt (by making a significant trade offer to the Rams). we also are fairly sure that they do not think Flynn is much better (since they did not pursue him they at least felt the cost was too great for whatever improvement he would have been). we don't know how they feel about him vs. Tannehill, but we will in another month. and, that's about all we know right now.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,093 Likes: 3
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,093 Likes: 3 |
Man, how many years are we going to hear about Carlton Mitchell in the offseason only to have him disapear. It's like floating in a row boat in the middle of the ocean and thinking you spot land but it is only a mirage.It might be time to free up a roster spot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
...as in: parts of the homer fan base still believing in him and the FO being way beyond that and looking to upgrade on him, it's not McCoy-Mania but it's comparable to the Mangini lovefest...this board is proof for that and other places are even worse....I guess it's because he's likeable and that makes some forget or scramble to excuse his performance any way possible
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Why is the only answer that we're homers? Maybe we just don't think the available alternatives are good enough to hit the reset button on? In the same way that you complained that we took McCoy in the third and wasted time on him, wouldn't we be doing the same thing over again with Tannehill at 22 or Weeden at 37 or 67 or Osweiler at 37 or 67? Just with a higher pick?
I'd prefer we don't draft a QB before the 5th unless he is a stud. Otherwise, we're just setting the odometer back to zero with another also-ran.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
It's obvious they left the door cracked open for McCoy to take all of this and turn it into a positive. That's all anyone in any line of work can ask for is a fair shot and some time. It is now up to McCoy to take this opportunity and make the most of it. It has been noted by everyone that has say in this organization the same thing many of us have said. The injuries, the drops, the lockout, the protection issues all had a part in our lack of offensive production. I think they are handling this to perfection to get everyone to step up their game. I think Big Mike addressing the team on what he expects for this upcoming season is also a good motivational tool. Heckert said it his his job to get him players that will help him succeed. Like how some of you say not a ringing endorsement for McCoy, it is Heckerts way of saying that those players were not in place. You don't take a team that ranked 29th in total offense in 2010 and change everything during a lockout shortened offseason, concentrate on the defense your first two drafts and give him a injured Hardesty and a year removed Little who was previously a RB and a rookie FB and say we expect great things. They knew it was going to be a rough year and only fans that look blindly for instant gratification could look at the offense keeping in mind Hillis, Steinbach and MoMass and Pashos were all injured either through a shortened training camp or at parts during the season and expect better results from 29th. The Defense has been addressed and now it is time to get Offensive heavy in this draft. It will be sink or swim for McCoy this year and everyone knows it including him. I think the motivation supplied by the front office will be conducive to taking a big step this year along with a full offseason and added playmakers. Last year was training wheels, this year they come off and he will learn how to ride or fall on his face. I hope he is lights out this year and I would think that any Brown's fan would hope the same thing.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Why is the only answer that we're homers? Maybe we just don't think the available alternatives are good enough to hit the reset button on? In the same way that you complained that we took McCoy in the third and wasted time on him, wouldn't we be doing the same thing over again with Tannehill at 22 or Weeden at 37 or 67 or Osweiler at 37 or 67? Just with a higher pick?
I'd prefer we don't draft a QB before the 5th unless he is a stud. Otherwise, we're just setting the odometer back to zero with another also-ran.
1st off, in terms of ceiling Tannehill and Weeden blow off McCoy, not comparable imho and that's why Tannehill will go in the 1st and Weeden will be drafted before Colt was despite being years older...it's a much stronger QB class than Colt's and both will go earlier...that should tell you something "at least" about their upside
2nd...the homers for me are the fans that didn't want a QB at all and give him another year...those are the homers, who still believed in him...beyond that, there are all kinds of "tiers" of fans on how to handle the QB situation...I wouldn't call anyone a homer who wanted RG3 or Luck but has doubts about Tannehill or Weeden....while there's more risked involved with those 2, it's my opinion that we have to still get 1 of them simply because we can't go into next season with our weakest unit still being the same as last season
Hear me out, because it's not only an armchair GM-paper thing, also a possible locker room divider...you draft a RB high and 2 WR in the draft....what do you think will guys like Hardesty and Cribbs/MoMass think? (and the rest of the team)...everybody knows that Colt stunk as much as them, if not more....everybody knows their FO tried to get RG3....what do you think is the level of trust in the locker room after a draft like that? Your FO basically told you that you'll tank next season...how will this look like for guys that re-signed (Thomas, Rubin etc) and bought into your "plan"? I'm not even talking about outside fan perception here...you simply can't go into next season with a QB depth chart of McCoy, Wallace, Lewis....you're killing the locker room if you scapegoat every other Offense position and treat QB like a holy cow....why should Colt get another year and Hardesty not?...if you're sending the message that below AVG performance is not tolerated you have to provide some kind of competition or hope at QB....and Tannehill and Weeden is all what's left to provide that short term with long term upside
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
it's hard to divide a locker room when you don't have another option in-house.
and, even when you do, as long as the QB performs, it goes away quickly (see Brees in SD after they drafted Rivers).
that's basically what all this comes down to. if the "light comes on" then everything is forgiven and everybody was a genius (even if the only reason they stuck with him was because they lost a blind auction). if he keeps playing like he did last year or only marginally improves, then everyone is an idiot for not fixing it earlier and it absolutely has to be fixed now.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,128 Likes: 134
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,128 Likes: 134 |
Quote:
If i can get a 2nd I would do it.
As long as we get the guy we're targeting anyway,, hell yah,,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,519
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,519 |
Like Bill Parcells once said .. You think it's easy to find a QB ? You can't just pick up the phone, you know ?
"Just gotta Coach em up" , "I thought they Battled" , " I need to watch the tape"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
Hear me out, because it's not only an armchair GM-paper thing, also a possible locker room divider...you draft a RB high and 2 WR in the draft....what do you think will guys like Hardesty and Cribbs/MoMass think? (and the rest of the team)...everybody knows that Colt stunk as much as them, if not more....everybody knows their FO tried to get RG3....what do you think is the level of trust in the locker room after a draft like that? Your FO basically told you that you'll tank next season...how will this look like for guys that re-signed (Thomas, Rubin etc) and bought into your "plan"? I'm not even talking about outside fan perception here...you simply can't go into next season with a QB depth chart of McCoy, Wallace, Lewis....you're killing the locker room if you scapegoat every other Offense position and treat QB like a holy cow....why should Colt get another year and Hardesty not?...if you're sending the message that below AVG performance is not tolerated you have to provide some kind of competition or hope at QB....and Tannehill and Weeden is all what's left to provide that short term with long term upside
OK I get what you're saying here. But IMO, we suck at WR, RB, QB, RT on O. We could improve our OG and TE as well. I don't want to spend a resource on a potential moderate upgrade at QB, because that is sinking additional years into that guy. If we get upgrades at all those other positions and McCoy still stinks (which I expect is but hope is not the case) then we're in a position to get a QB who IMO is better than anything that's left after the top 2 guys this year. I don't expect Murray, Renner, Wilson, Price, Barkley and Co. to be as good as RGIII or Luck, but I do expect them to all be better than Tannehill, Weedon, and Osweiler, who I see as the next guys in this draft. (I need to see more of Price, though.) I expect more than one of those guys will be good enough to be our starting QB, and think we will be in position to get one next year.
And honestly, if MoMass and Hardesty are too hurt (NPI) by us drafting a RB or a WR, then they can hit the road. You only play 1 QB. You play 4 WRs. You play 3 RBs. If they are offended by the picks, then beat the new guy on the field.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,241 Likes: 594
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,241 Likes: 594 |
Given our offseason, and all the activity that's going on, the last thing it looks like the FO is doing is treating the QB position as a holy-cow.
I'd be very surprised if that's the feeling with the QBs we've been pursuing so far.
The real truth is, just about every damn position on the offensive side of the ball needs an upgrade. You just can't hit on every single one in a single offseason. In terms of the locker room, I doubt that are as objective as that, but they have to know that no starter is safe right now, save for LT and maybe center(?).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
See, that's where I disagree...you can win 6-8 games with any QB, especially one that is risk-averse and manages games...if you have playmakers everywhere you win 6-8 games and pick 12-16...we're picking 4th this season and only have a shot at drafting the 3rd best QB...you think we'll pick any higher next draft? Or the price to trade up going down? Dream on
As far as predicting the next QB class...1 year ago everyone thought RG3 was a mid rounder and Landry Jones a Top 10 lock...point being: we have absolutely no clue whatsoever how next year's QB class shapes up....for the record: I consider Tannehill having a higher ceiling than Barkley, but the latter being more pro-ready
It's not about sub-par players "being hurt"...it's the message it sends through the locker room...buildng blocks like Thomas, Dqwell etc...we're trying to build a team and for the past 2 season's our FO has awarded AVG or better NFL play with fat contracts and bad play with cuts, benching etc...I see no way how we go into next season with the same QBs...absolutely none...makes no sense imho
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Tom Heckert: Browns “fine with
Colt McCoy,” may trade down
|
|
