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I'LL admit it , I haven't posted much in recent years as I have become Disenchanted with the Browns....This is mainly from growing up a Loyal , Life Long Browns Fan who in my almost 44 years have watch the heart ache that is Browns Football....I can't imagine that my Father & Grand Father's generation who lived through the glory years of the Browns would believe that in 2012 the Browns would be 1 of only 2 teams Never to have reach a Super Bowl....That said , like some I will be hoping that McCoy can succeed and be our QB for years to come....It's clear that we need upgrades across the board....IF we improve the OL , RBs and WRs that should Definitely help....Having an off season to better learn the Offense will also help....Last season on several occasions our players dropped balls that McCoy hit them in the hands with....IF they would have caught those balls McCoy would have looked better....I do think that McCoy is best suited for a ball control Offense which runs the clock and focuses on short to intermediate range passes that put an emphasis on yards after the catch.....I believe he is intelligent and a born leader....Let's hope the pieces fall into place so he can show us in 2012. JMHO.
The Mammal
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I know you boys aren't stupid but I still have to ask the question.....You do realize that what you say or think doesn't have a thing to do with what the front office will or won't do regarding the coaching staff and/or players before or after the 2012 season, right?
No. You mean Homie, Shurmer, and Lerner don't read the board and change their course of action based on what I say?? 
It's a message board Otts....a place to express.
And my feeling is these clowns need to be dumped if we don't start winning.
Is there anything I can do about it?? No. Am I going to dump my season tickets? No.
All I can do is go to games a cheer the few wins or boo like crazy at inept play. Homie and Lerner do hear that. If it gets bad enough I have decided I will sell, or even give my tickets away to an opposing teams fan because a fan cheering for the other team resonates much louder than any booing I might make.
See ya in September. 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Not me too, what?
Believing that there is no room to regress to being beneath the pathetic showing that we were last year??
I call that common sense.
Last year was what it was, but there is ZERO room or excuse for it to ever get worse than that. Ever.
So, let's say they end up with the same record... You'd fire them all and start all over again?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Not me too, what?
Believing that there is no room to regress to being beneath the pathetic showing that we were last year??
I call that common sense.
Last year was what it was, but there is ZERO room or excuse for it to ever get worse than that. Ever.
So, let's say they end up with the same record... You'd fire them all and start all over again?
If this team performs like it did last year, scored 13 PPG again, and wins only 4 games, what would recommend their retention?
Seriously?
If the team goes from being bad to worse, and stays worse, then what would be the rationale for keeping them? That maybe year 5 might be better? Or year 6?
If we are still as far away from being a winning team at the end of this season as we are now, then there are major problems.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Oh, they've given themselves an out when we suck, not if we suck. We're rebuilding. We're building through the draft with the eye on the future, not the present.
All the talk about not winning being unacceptable? Gotta sell tickets, jerseys, and concessions somehow...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Arent we going to have quite a bit tougher of a schedule this season?
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I haven't felt this crappy about an upcoming season since the return. Just what is there to look forward to? There are no unquestionable bona fide game 1 starters in this draft after Luck and Kalil. Outside of Cribbs, we have no proven offensive gamers currently on our roster. Our qb, rb and receiver situation is pathetic. We have a sophomore coach that hasn't given us the slightest hint that he's capable. Even if we hit on a few draft picks, they're not going to contribute anything meaningful until the latter part of the season....and help us win enough games to be out of the running for a good qb next year. I hear all this talk about trading down for more picks that will probably have a rat's chance in hell of making this team better this year, and it makes me want to puke. Looking at our schedule, I don't see how we can win more than 4-6 games.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Just what is there to look forward to?
The 2013 draft.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Thanks for cheering me up!  I like to get up there for 5-6 games a year. If this goes as it looks like it will, I doubt I go up past Oct.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Just what is there to look forward to?
13 picks in the draft.
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There are no unquestionable bona fide game 1 starters in this draft after Luck and Kalil.
I disagree:
CB Claiborne
WR Blackmon
RB Richardson
CB Kirkpatrick
OT Glenn
RB Martin
LB Wagner
LB Hightower
DE Cam Johnson (IMO... complete DE without motor concerns)
OG/OT B. Brooks
IMO, all those guys are guaranteed day 1 starters. In fact, any of those guys would start on our team week 1.
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because of our complete absence of a RT and WOLB on our roster, you could also add any number of those prospects to your list as well for guys who would likely start game1 for us.
also, unless Hardesty is healthy and back to what our FO thought he could be, there's a good chance your RB list is short on who would be starting for us as well.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Not me too, what?
Believing that there is no room to regress to being beneath the pathetic showing that we were last year??
I call that common sense.
Last year was what it was, but there is ZERO room or excuse for it to ever get worse than that. Ever.
So, let's say they end up with the same record... You'd fire them all and start all over again?
Where did record suddenly come in?
Speak about the offense, then ask the question again.
I'll restate it for you, however: If the offense is worse next year than it was last year, we NEED TO CLEAN HOUSE FROM TOP TO BOTTOM.
Why? Because in order to get worse than last year we either need to again be an expansion team, or we're capable of getting our butts kicked by a high school team.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Not me too, what?
Believing that there is no room to regress to being beneath the pathetic showing that we were last year??
I call that common sense.
Last year was what it was, but there is ZERO room or excuse for it to ever get worse than that. Ever.
So, let's say they end up with the same record... You'd fire them all and start all over again?
If this team performs like it did last year, scored 13 PPG again, and wins only 4 games, what would recommend their retention?
Seriously?
If the team goes from being bad to worse, and stays worse, then what would be the rationale for keeping them? That maybe year 5 might be better? Or year 6?
If we are still as far away from being a winning team at the end of this season as we are now, then there are major problems.
I guess it doesn't matter.. no matter what happens.. if we win 4 games, for you it will be Colt McCoys fault.. if we win 10 games, it will be because Colt McCoy got lucky..
As for the front office, you and I and everyone on the planet knew this wasn't going to be an overnight fix.. But still,, by year 3, people are saying,,, FIRE THEM if they don't improve.
OK,, hey,, if you wanna start over.. be my guest.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So, O-Toad, "The brews must go on!" Have to win MegaZillions or sumpin; to eat stadium food for the rest of your life. Certainly don't want us to be a smaller market . . . .
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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When have I ever not owned up to a mistake?
Seriously.
I have owned up to more mistakes than most on this board, and I have been happy to do so. I have never been afraid to say I was wrong. I've have also never ridden the fence on players so I can never be wrong, like some people do. I take strong positions, and I am right on some, and wrong on others. It's not a matter of life or death ... and in fact, I'd rather be wrong when I say certain players suck. I would love for McCoy to suddenly turn into a superstar ..... but I don't see it happening.
However .... yes .... if we don't improve in year 3 over year 2 ..... then yes, we should be looking at changes, because something isn't working.
In this draft we should add 3 starters, minimum. If that doesn't translate to improvement, then someone is making major mistakes somewhere.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Right. You don't go from crap to Super Bowl champ from one year to the next.
It works like this in most cases.
3-13....new staff is brought in...then...
4-12....they had to get the ball rolling, we knew it was going to be tough. Then.....
8-8-....some of the new guys are shaping up and we look like we are improving
10-6....made the playoffs or just missed by fluke....get bounced out of playoffs fairly early...everybody eager for the next season. Then...
The team starts to contend...you get stuck at 4-5-6 wins 3-4 years in, you are wasting your time.
So we are at the point we need to post up 8 wins. I'll even possibly be ok with 7 if we have some freak loss...we lose on a 4 tip hail mary or a easy Dawson 22 yard field goal bounces off a upright. Sometimes stuff like that happens. You can't blame coaches and staff for things like that.
You can if you just suck and the staff insists the players and scheme are solid.
I wonder how long it's going to take Heck and Shurmer to start pointing fingers at each other? You know..."it isn't the players", or, "the coaches can only do so much with the team they are given".
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I'd say that's fair.. though I'd even accept as low as 6-10 as long as we're looking really competent and competitive... especially being that the coming year's schedule is loads tougher than what we just played.
If we look as hapless and pathetic as we did last season, though.... then something has gotta change in a hurry. I would expect Shurmur to not finish the season in that case.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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We were very close to being a 7 win team last year. Had a couple bad breaks as you said and yet people wanted us to lose games for a higher draft pick.
Next year will be the same tougher schedule some games we will lose that we should have won some games we will win we should have lost but overall I dont see us winning more then 6 games.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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some games we will lose that we should have won some games we will win
That will always be the case for nearly every team in every season.
Where progress has to be shown is in the average games, not the exceptions.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Even with an excellent draft - which I'm expecting from Heckert - this team is still at least two years away from being 8-8. The reasons are right in front of us:
1. No QB.
2. Excruciatingly tough division. Everyone always says "I don't understand how other teams can turn it around". Well, here is the single biggest reason. They don't play the Steelers and Rats twice a year. This circumstance is pure bad luck. It is what it is.
3. Not one single playmaker on offense (and altho that might change with the draft, don't look for it to change the record).
Glad to find someone I agree with. The only way this team was making 8-8 this season was if they brought in Peyton Manning. The next best shot was Flynn (or Campbell / McNabb / Orton). After that you are playing McCoy or a rookie; and they are going to need time to learn the system. This goes as well for any new WR/RB acquired.
This is a passing league. You need a superior athlete at the QB position; and then you need that player to have a few seasons developing rhythm and familiarity with their offense. This is what you are up against almost every week; and will be the teams you lose to. Don't expect to go 7-9 until you have the QB, don't expect to go 8-8 until he has a year in the system, after that you can have reasonable playoff and superbowl dreams.
Between 3-7 wins this season. My guess is 6 at the moment. But hey I'm an optimist.
Last edited by Kingcob; 03/28/12 11:12 AM.
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I'd take a 4 win season if we looked like a professional team on both sides of the ball.
If we lost a bunch of games by a FG here, or a last minute TD there ..... stuff like that ... then fine, 4-12 might be acceptable.
However, if we go 4-12 and look as completely inept on offense as we did last year ..... there will be serious questions asked, and there damn well should be. This group was brought in to find and develop a franchise QB, and to turn the offense around. Right now they are making the Mangini years look like an offensive juggernaut by comparison. (Cue the "YTSMWGJLHAD, GOID" crew)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Right. You don't go from crap to Super Bowl champ from one year to the next.
It works like this in most cases.
3-13....new staff is brought in...then...
4-12....they had to get the ball rolling, we knew it was going to be tough. Then.....
8-8-....some of the new guys are shaping up and we look like we are improving
10-6....made the playoffs or just missed by fluke....get bounced out of playoffs fairly early...everybody eager for the next season. Then...
The team starts to contend...you get stuck at 4-5-6 wins 3-4 years in, you are wasting your time.
So we are at the point we need to post up 8 wins.
Being as it is only the Coaching Staffs 2nd year in and even according to your chart you state from 3-13 to 4-12 which I take to show slight improvement and like you said had the ball rolling... Then you say we are to the point where we need 8 wins. Are you Counting Mangini against Shurmer? I agree with your chart but I don't agree with that we are at the point we need 8 wins. I think we are in the second step. I would expect 5-6 wins this year and hope for more. Next Year I would expect 8-8 to 9-7 and on the brink of Plkayoffs and the year after fully expect this team to be Playoff Caliber for a good long time if we keep building and re-stocking the way we have.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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don't think this is how you meant it, but this is how it sounds:
if we lose a bunch of games 17-14 then it shows we are terrible on offense and everyone needs to go.
if we lost a bunch of games 30-27, then it shows we are good on offense and we should get better moving forward.
I think the odds are better on the first option though because of all the draft picks we have been investing on defense, no? if we end up not being able to stop anyone this year then that will be pretty disheartening towards how we have been building this team (because it would show that the base we have built on defense isn't very good)
#gmstrong
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Quote:
don't think this is how you meant it, but this is how it sounds:
if we lose a bunch of games 17-14 then it shows we are terrible on offense and everyone needs to go.
if we lost a bunch of games 30-27, then it shows we are good on offense and we should get better moving forward.
I think the odds are better on the first option though because of all the draft picks we have been investing on defense, no? if we end up not being able to stop anyone this year then that will be pretty disheartening towards how we have been building this team (because it would show that the base we have built on defense isn't very good)
So if we lose a bunch of games 30-27, does that mean everyone must go? That's a lot of points to give up. I guess the only way everyone stays is if we win every game 27-17.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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What I am saying is that if we are in our games, and playing well, but we wind up losing on flue type plays ...... then I can accept a few more losses than I can if we just play like crap again. 13 PPG is completely unacceptable. I think that our defense was somewhat overrated this year because our offense was so abysmally horrible. Many times teams went into "prevent offense" mode before the half against us last year, which definitely held down scoring. I fully expect that our defense will give up more points this coming year. I do hope that we fix a few of the gaping holes in the run defense though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Record be damned, I'll be happy if our offense can muster a significant improvement over its 11 meaningful points per game in 2011.
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I completely agree our defense was "over-rated" last year. We have gaping holes at OLB, CB2, DE, and FS. We need to fill those holes.
However, I disagree that as you said:
"Many times teams went into "prevent offense" mode before the half against us last year, which definitely held down scoring"
I remember that happening against the Ravens in '09 when they just ran up the middle once they went up 15-0 and bled out the clock. that is not how last year went.
I think our FO made it a point to shore up the run defense which is why we went after Frostee. if we get L.David in the draft for WOLB, then it will help a ton to solidify that overall run defense (Ward being healthy at SS is also a key).
#gmstrong
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Obviously that means a lot and why the record numbers can be massaged a bit. It's not like it is written in stone.
There is a thing called the eyeball test.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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In the 2nd half of the Titans game, the Titans threw something like 6 or 7 times for 26 yards in the 2nd half and won going away. (31-13) The Titans threw for 220 yards in the game, and ran for another 112. The halftime score was 21-6. The final was 31-13. No last minute "heroics" in this game. we scored our TD with about 12 minutes left in the 4th.
In the 2nd half of the Raiders game, the Raiders threw 10 times for 86 yards, and won going away. (24-17, but we scored with almost no time left, then recovered an onside kick to make it look presentable) The Raiders threw for 187 and ran for 151. The halftime score was 14-7. The final was 24-17 ..... and the Raiders laid down enough that they almost gave us the game. We scored our last TD with like 1 minute left. That's why the score was presentable.
In the 2nd half of the Niners game, the Niners threw 12 times for 78 yards. 41 of those yards came shortly after the half on a single play. Everything else was super conservative. The Niners ran for 174 yards. The halftime score was 17-3 ..... and it wasn't that close. The Niners wound up winning 20-10 ...... and our TD happened with something like 5 or 6 minutes left in the game.
The Texans ran for 261 yards.They didn't even bother to pass, throwing 23 times for 119 yards. They threw 8 times in the 2nd half for 39 yards. Schaub went 3-5 for 27 of those yards on his 1st drive of the 3rd quarter, and the score after that drive was 27-3. Yawn. They led 24-3 at the half, and ran the ball in prevent offense mode from there out. We scored a TD with 5 minutes left to make the score 30-12.
That's just 4 games. teams got ahead of us ..... and just played it super safe, ran the ball, and still had some to great success.
One more just off the top of my head ......
The Ravens, in our first game against them, were up 10-0 at the half. Did they pass the crap out of the ball to build a lead?
Nope ..... they threw 7 times for 48 yards in the second half of that game, and still wound up beating us 24-10. We scored our TD with something like 4 minutes left in the game.
We had an ineffective offense, and that led to teams playing prevent offense against us. They threw safe passes, and ran the crap out of the ball. They punted, and didn;t care because they knew that our offense wasn't going to do anything against us. They played safe offense in the 2nd half of games, because they were ahead, and they knew that we weren't going to challenge their lead. There are 5 examples right off the top of my head.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Why would they pass if they know that we can't score? Also we have a hard time stopping the run, but where not bad at defending the pass.
It should not be a surprise is all I'm saying.
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Our offense scored 20 touchdowns last season.
Of those, we scored:
-1 while trailing the Titans 31-6 with 11:56 left in the 4th
-1 while trailing the Raiders 24-10 with 1:11 left in the 4th
-1 while trailing the 49ers 17-3 with 6:23 left in the 4th
-1 while trailing the Texans 30-6 with 4:51 left in the 4th
-1 while trailing the Ravens 24-3 with 4:29 left in the 4th
-1 while trailing the Ravens 20-7 with 8:30 left in the 4th
6 out of 20 touchdowns scored in the 4th quarter, never trailing by less than 13 and never having scored more than 10 up to that point. 42 of 218 points (not including PATs) scored when the game was in hand in favor of the opponent.
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Quote:
Our offense scored 20 touchdowns last season.
Of those, we scored:
-1 while trailing the Titans 31-6 11:56 left in the 4th
-1 while trailing the Raiders 24-10 with 1:11 left in the 4th
-1 while trailing the 49ers 17-3 with 6:23 left in the 4th
-1 while trailing the Texans 30-6 with 4:51 left in the 4th
-1 while trailing the Ravens 24-3 with 4:29 left in the 4th
-1 while trailing the Ravens 20-7 with 8:30 left in the 4th
6 out of 20 touchdowns scored in the 4th quarter, never trailing by less than 13 and never having scored more than 10 up to that point. 42 of 218 points (not including PATs) scored when the game was in hand in favor of the opponent.
Exactly.
We scored many of our points when the other team knew the game was over.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
I'd say that's fair.. though I'd even accept as low as 6-10 as long as we're looking really competent and competitive...
My point, if anyone cares is, a team could be a 4 win team again this year and still be better in so many other areas. I know that wins and losses are all that matter in the end.
Everyone on this board knows that how you win and lose is important also.
Otherwise, why have discussions about Strength of Schedule... Team A has a weak schedule and they win 10 + games.. someone will say it's not a big deal and not a true indiciation on how bad they really are. Team B plays a tough schedule and wins 8 games and they just aren't as good as team A.
the variables make a difference.
Otherwise, there is no discussions to be had.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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Right. You don't go from crap to Super Bowl champ from one year to the next.
It works like this in most cases.
3-13....new staff is brought in...then...
4-12....they had to get the ball rolling, we knew it was going to be tough. Then.....
8-8-....some of the new guys are shaping up and we look like we are improving
10-6....made the playoffs or just missed by fluke....get bounced out of playoffs fairly early...everybody eager for the next season. Then...
The team starts to contend...you get stuck at 4-5-6 wins 3-4 years in, you are wasting your time.
This is only true if you find your QB in year 1 or year 2...like the Lions.
You will never be a contender without a QB. Just the way it is. And it's especially true for us in our division. It's a tough break.
I think if you're expecting 8-8 this season, you will be disappointed. My one caveat is Richardson. I think he gets us to 8-8...just not sure if he's a good long-term investment at 4.
I believe Heckert can and will continue to draft well and lay a nice solid foundation of talent, but it's going to take a while. I hope we don't run him out of town.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Dawg Talker
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just curious what makes you think that T-Rich will take us to 8-8 in a WCO that the combined 1,000 yds we had as a team didnt with an easier schedule last year?
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Legend
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Legend
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Beause theres a difference between a group of crappy RBs combining for 1k yards...
And your Rookie RB beasting it for 1k yards...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Fair enough but we had Hillis the year before and he had 1K yds and was beasting it big time yet we didnt sniff .500 so I just dont see how another RB can make us anything more then what I think our record will be.
Im not saying I dont like the guy and if we draft him I wont be unhappy at all but I dont see how a RB will take us from my expected 6 wins to 8 is all Im saying much as I dont think drafting my guy Blackmon will take us from my expected 6 wins to 8 either.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Beause theres a difference between a group of crappy RBs combining for 1k yards...
And your Rookie RB beasting it for 1k yards...
That's pretty optimistic considering the crappy right side of our line.
#GMSTRONG
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I think he's the most special, non-QB player in this draft...a talent of which we haven't sniffed since the return. He would be so far and ahead of any skill player we've had since '99 and second place on that list would be a distant second.
Now will that get us to 8-8 ... I think it gives us a chance. It would completely change the complexion of our O. Blackmon doesn't, IMO. Tannehill doesn't, IMO (altho I would be ok with drafting him with an eye toward the future).
You mentioned Hillis. He beasted two years ago ... I agree ... but he wore down at the end of the season and didn't really start playing until Week 3, IIRC. And Richardson and Hillis aren't even in the same stratosphere talent-wise.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Posts: 50,419 |
I think that Richardson is a special talent. He could run for 1500 yards as a rookie, forgetting about just 1000.
Shurmur has used a premium talent RB in the past in St Louis. He didn't shy away from running the ball then.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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