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Maybe he wants to rip his heart out of his chest?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I hate to to respond to you,but,sometimes I can't help myself.
At the beginning of the year the oline was bad,I agree.But they got better,by leaps and bounds,to the point where they were playing at a very good level.
But the O still stunk.So that major reason you were referring to doesn't make alot of sense.
Just maybe there were other positions that didn't improve much,if at all,that might explain why the O sucked ass the entire year.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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j/c We draft Kalil...he plays RT until his rookie contract is up...he gets big money and moves to LT...Joe - now 5 years older - moves to RT and we win our 5th Super Bowl. Yep...that's the plan. 
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Like I said ..... the Browns OL of 2010 and the Browns OL of 2011 were not that much different in sacks/hits when total number of plays are taken into account.
It sounds horrible that they went from 36 to 39 sacks allowed, until one also realizes that they threw the ball 570 times in 2011, and only 478 times in 2010. I think that one could argue that they actually played better in that regard, as they only allowed 3 more sacks in 92 additional pass attempts. Add in that we had a 2nd year Guard on the right, and a rookie Guard on the left ,,,,,,, and it's even more impressive.
The Browns OL allowed a combined total of 122 hits and sacks last year.
Other notables:
The Ravens- 111
The Falcons- 110
Packers- 114
The Lions- 114
The Colts- 116
The Cowboys- 120
The Redskins- 149
The 49'ers- 126
The Steelers- 119
The Jaguars- 120
Da Bears- 136
The Vikings- 125
The Seahags- 164
The Dolphins- 147
The Cardinals- 140
The Rams- 169
Considering that we played with a rookie, a 2nd year, 1st time starter, and a revolving door at RT ...... that's not exactly awful. Considering that we were 11th in pass attempts in the NFL last year ...... I'd say that's not bad at all.
For all of the praise thrown the Niners way ...... they only threw the ball 451 times ..... but got their QB hit/sacked 4 times more than we did.
We threw the ball a lot last year, especially early ...... and the line had some bumps early ...... but played well overall.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
What happens when Kalil pans out, do you pay him Joe Thomas money too?
You can't draft that guy, you just can't. OL is important, but being good at all positions is more important.
Disagree, a few reasons:
There's probably about a 50/50 chance that Thomas is even with the team in 4 years -- that sounds inconceivable at the moment, but that's really how the NFL is built these days. Joe Thomas will be 31 when Kalil's rookie contract is over.
For comparison:
-- Orlando Pace only played 26 more NFL games after turning 31, and only 15 more with the Rams. He never played a full NFL season after turning 30.
-- Walter Jones did better and played 58 more NFL games after turning 31. Though he only played one full season in that time.
-- Jonathan Ogden played 3 seasons and 40 games after turning 31. He played one full season in that time.
-- Willie Roaf was traded by the saints for a conditional draft pick at the age of 31 (after losing most of a season to injury) - he did then play 58 games for the Chiefs and 3 full seasons.
-- Anthony Munoz played 53 games after turning 31.
In the next four years, Kalil's contract is a huge bargain. Even if RTs are valued less highly than LTs, they are still valued much higher than RBs (contract wise) - and the contract will be the same regardless of who we pick.
Of the players above, only Roaf played a full season at older than 32 years old -- so at most, Thomas and Kalil would overlap for maybe two NFL seasons.
EDIT: Want to add in - elite LTs wear down faster than any other line position for two reasons:
1.) The elite ones have started every game since they entered the league, they've played a lot more than journeymen by the age of 30.
2.) LT requires the most speed, and that is lost the fastest.
The first certainly applies to JT -- the second can be helped if we move him to RT after 4 years when we resign Kalil.
EDIT2: Add a few more to the list (slightly less elite, but staying in the last 10 years)
Tarik Glenn - Retired at the age of 30.
Tra Thomas - started 50 games after turning 31, and one full season.
Willie Anderson - started 32 games after turning 31, but only 21 for the Bengals.
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 04/06/12 02:49 PM.
~Lyuokdea
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Quote:
Quote:
The Browns greatest need on the Oline is at RT and if Kali is on the board, the Browns should take him or trade the pick for a kings ransom.
Kali is the 2nd best player in this draft, just behind Andrew Luck...the Browns have the need and Kali would greatly improve the play of the Browns Oline, plus add to depth at LT should anything happen to Joe Thomas.
Ask yourself...were the Browns wrong to draft Joe Thomas?...I believe most would say drafting Joe Thomas was one of the best draft choices the Browns have made.
Now ask yourself this...if Joe Thomas is on the draft board this year, do we draft him?...I believe most would say yes...Kali is a Joe Thomas caliber OT...you don't pass on drafting those caliber of players.
What does a Hindu goddess (of death, no less) have to do with the Browns offensive line? 
If you can't beat 'em, kill 'em? 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I will defend the play of our line,but,I believe that in today's NFL teams can get by,and in fact win it all with average oline play.
The NFL is evolving into a spread attack league,minimizing the need for good olinemen.
A quick decision making QB with acrobatic WRs will get you further than great oline play.
Drafting a LT at 4,when you already have one,is a luxury the Browns simply cannot afford.
Sacks and QB hits are misleading stats.As you well know,Slow minded QBs coupled with inexperienced WRs can make any line look bad statistically.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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We are a RT away from having arguably a top 3 offensive line. I really like the idea of Swartz and Lauvao on that right side.
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I completely agree with you.
I don't know this Shwartz fellow,but i've learned to trust your opinion on college guys.
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So the point is there is not that much drop off to the 2nd tier of Offensive Tackles.
The Browns, since drafting Thomas, have added some middle round O lineman every year, so a middle round pick would fit the template.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:
So the point is there is not that much drop off to the 2nd tier of Offensive Tackles.
The Browns, since drafting Thomas, have added some middle round O lineman every year, so a middle round pick would fit the template.
Isn't that true by definition? If you put them all in the same Tier? The ones who are much better would be first tier, and the ones who are worse would be Third Tier?
Anyway, my Tier's for RT Candiates:
1st Tier:
Matt Kalil
2nd Tier:
Riley Reiff
Cordy Glenn
Jonathan Martin
3rd Tier:
Mike Adams
Mitchell Swartz
Nate Potter
Zebrie Sanders
4th Tier:
Bobby Massie
Brendon Mosley
Matt Reynalds
Andrew Datko
5th Tier:
Levy Adcock
There are a bunch of others that go in there somewhere -- but those are the people I've watched game film of.
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Isn't that true by definition? Not always.
You could have 2 hall of famers at a positon and the next best guys at that position could be worse than dirt. That would be a Huge drop of to the 2nd tier.
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Quote:
Isn't that true by definition? Not always.
You could have 2 hall of famers at a positon and the next best guys at that position could be worse than dirt. That would be a Huge drop of to the 2nd tier.
Right - and then you would probably call that "third tier" to show the difference.
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hmm... I think Zebrie Sanders is terrible compared to Datko. I guess he's more experienced at RT than Datko since Datko played LT before he was hurt and Sanders moved to the left side, but I don't understand (outside of injury concerns) why Sanders would be rated ahead of him.
Also, I think Adcock is underrated, especially in a pass-first offense. He's got great lateral movement skills.
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Quote:
hmm... I think Zebrie Sanders is terrible compared to Datko. I guess he's more experienced at RT than Datko since Datko played LT before he was hurt and Sanders moved to the left side, but I don't understand (outside of injury concerns) why Sanders would be rated ahead of him.
Also, I think Adcock is underrated, especially in a pass-first offense. He's got great lateral movement skills.
Injury concerns are important - Datko's missed 2/3 of his last two seasons. He'd probably be tier 2/3 without that. Sanders also has a higher ceiling IMO - more fluid hips. Sanders is more raw at this point - but by all accounts he's a very smart dude.
Would have to disagree completely on Adcock.
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Quote:
Quote:
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Everything that happens on offense is dependent on the performance of the O-line.
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Wrong, it depends on the quarterback.
candy...I said..." Everything that happens on offense is dependent on the performance of the O-line."
You mind telling me what the QB has to do with the running game?
This is the problem with those who are focused on one thing...blaming the QB for everything that is wrong with the offense. The QB has nothing to do with the running game other than handing the ball off. QBs are not responsible for opening holes.
...If the offensive line is below average at protecting their QB, it will affect the passing game.
...If the offensive line is below average at run blocking, the production from the RBs will suffer.
The absolute, most important positions on offense are the 5 offensive linemen.
Quote:
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It is basic football knowledge, if a team wants to improve its running game and passing game, the best way to affect both (running and passing) is to improve the quality of your offensive line.
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Or you know…. Get better skill position players.
If the offensive line's pass blocking is poor, the WRs will not play to their potential, especially if the QB is running for his life.
If the offensive line does not give the QB time to pass the ball, that QB will not perform at his max level.
If the offensive line does not run block well, a team's running back will not reach his full potential.
RBs, WRs, TEs and QBs...all depend on the offensive line to block well, if they are to perform at a high level.
It is not a coincidence that the best performing offenses have the best offensive line play and the worst performing offenses have the worst offensive line play.
Skilled position players will never play to their potential if their offensive line does not perform at a high level.
Candy...if you can't understand the importance of the offensive line after reading the above...you never will.
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I'm as big an OL proponent as they come but a QB has a substantial effect on the running game.
If you have a QB who is capable of driving the football and capable of getting one over the top of the defense well then the defense has to play that offense differently.
Instead of 8 in the box, LBers attacking at the snap, like we have with Colt a QB like Schaub keeps opposing defensive players on their heel and safeties have to respect his ability to beat them in the mid to long range game.
That has a real effect. Couple that with two fine RBs and a great run blocking OL and you have the leafue's best running game.
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QB is responsible for audibling and calling for motion before the snap of any given running play.
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Mourg - Thanks for the videos. May the Schwartz be with you!
My assessment of him is that he seems to have bulldog tenacity but isn't very agile and is not overly powerful. There were several plays where he looked confused on who to block. That was against USC. How will he handle the steelers zone blitz?
I see a 4th round talent. And there is no way he is a plug and play RT. If we are looking for a day 1 starter at RT we need to look somewhere else.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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He isn't quiet quick enough to be an NFL left tackle but he is quick enough to man the right side and he looks much more comfortable on the right side as well. He wowed at the senior bowl, stonewalling everyone.
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Quote:
What happens when Kalil pans out, do you pay him Joe Thomas money too?
You can't draft that guy, you just can't. OL is important, but being good at all positions is more important.
It would be tempting, if Kalil is there, to select him. However, as others have stated, if he's somehow there, I think you can get a prince's ransom for him.
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Maybe he wants to rip his heart out of his chest?
We can counter with Indiana Jones!
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The absolute most important position on offense is the Quarterback.
The Qb is the leader of the huddle. The one who takes the snaps, the leader before the snap, making sure folks are lined up right.
The Qb is the leader just after the snap, with the ball in his hands before he delivers it to either a handoff, or a pitch, or a pass, or a fake, or whatever.
The Qb can make the OL look better IF, he can make things happen that keep the defense guessing.
The offensive line can play lights out , protect for a Long time and the quarterback can still make a bad play, not finding anywhere to throw to, or being late to make a good decision, or any number of things.
The absolute most important person on the offense is the Quarterback, on the field, and the coach off the field. It's not even close.
AND, the O-line can make a difference, BUT
The Qb is still the biggest factor, on the field anyway. The Coach might be just as big an obstacle to overcome, but On the field, the Qb is most important.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:
I'm as big an OL proponent as they come but a QB has a substantial effect on the running game.
held...sorry, but I have never heard a running back thank his qb for opening holes, have you?
Reggie Bush Thanks His Offensive Line
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If you honestly think the o-line makes a bigger impact than the QB I don't know what to tell you.
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Quote:
JMHO that candyman is wrong that OL is overrated, that said, you are wrong that we should take Kalil at #4.
we need a RT but not the #4 pick in the draft RT. Maybe the #37 pick in the draft RT. Three first round picks on the OL and all 2nd, 3rd and later picks at skill positions isn't going to cut it.
DC...you did read my entire post, didn't you? ...specifically, this..."The Browns greatest need on the Oline is at RT and if Kali is on the board, the Browns should take him or trade the pick for a kings ransom."
Some seem to have skipped right over the last 8 words in my comment above.
Last edited by mac; 04/07/12 06:51 AM.
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Quote:
If you honestly think the o-line makes a bigger impact than the QB I don't know what to tell you.
candy...can the offensive line play affect the ability of a QB to play to his full potential?
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Quote:
Quote:
If you honestly think the o-line makes a bigger impact than the QB I don't know what to tell you.
candy...can the offensive line play affect the ability of a QB to play to his full potential?
Can the play of the QB make the o-line look better than it is?
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Worst OL in football with Charlie Frye, the only player changed on offense was DA replacing Frye and the OL becomes the best in football.
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Quote:
The absolute most important position on offense is the Quarterback.
Yep, we agree...
Quote:
The Qb can make the OL look better IF, he can make things happen that keep the defense guessing.
...The qb can only help his offensive line to a degree..audible out of a bad play, getting rid of the ball to a check down receiver in the face of an all out blitz...as far as "making things happen to keep a defense guessing"...qb does not call the plays, but can audible out of a bad play.
...BUT, can the offensive line play affect the performance of their qb?
The correct answer is YES...on every pass play, the Browns offensive line plays a part in the success or failure of a passing play. If a qb is going to be successful passing the ball, he is going to need an offensive line capable of giving him time to complete a pass.
It's all about the offensive line giving their qb a comfort zone from which to pass the football from. If the Oline can provide their qb with such a comfort zone, the qb will have a better opportunity to complete passes.
Quote:
The absolute most important person on the offense is the Quarterback, on the field, and the coach off the field. It's not even close.
AND, the O-line can make a difference, BUT
The Qb is still the biggest factor, on the field anyway. The Coach might be just as big an obstacle to overcome, but On the field, the Qb is most important.
Most important "person", yea it would have to be the qb...
But that qb will not perform to his potential if his 5 offensive linemen do not protect him long enough to complete passes. The success of a qb, depends on the play of his offensive line.
Not only does the offensive line have to provide their qb time to complete a pass...they have to run block well to have a successful running game.
Successful passing and running depends on the play of the offensive line...the Oline is the most important unit of the offense.
The Browns offensive line was below average 2011 by every measure I can come up with.
The Browns Oline ranked...
...18th in sacks allowed with 39
...25th in qb hits allowed with 83
...the Browns passing game ranked 24th**
...the Browns running game ranked 28th**
** The offensive line plays a part in both the passing game and running game and must be held responsible for the part they play...
The Browns will never win anything with the level of Oline play exhibited in 2011.
Teams that win Championships have very good offensive line play...it is that simple...
Last edited by mac; 04/07/12 08:36 AM.
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Quote:
specifically, this..."The Browns greatest need on the Oline is at RT and if Kali is on the board, the Browns should take him or trade the pick for a kings ransom."
Can't argue with that.... I think the Browns would be dumb to pass him up without a huge trade... heck... if people don't think you'll take him and won't trade pick him up and then see if anyone wants to give a king's ransom... if not then you'll have two great tackles for the next 4-5 years.
<><
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Quote:
Teams that win Championships have very good offensive line play...it is that simple
I guess the giants were an exception this year. So were the steelers.
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Mourg, while I agree with the premise that the play of the QB affects the perception of the OL, this feels a bit dishonest. Charlie got himself pulled one quarter of one game into Joe thomas' rookie season.
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Still spewing the "OL Stats" argument that I debunked already?
You should go work in politics mac ...... usually they're the ones who keep blabbering the same stuff even after they've been proved wrong.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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The season before we saw Frye stand back there afraid to throw the football and that led to the Edwards stuff on the sidelines. Charlie took big hit after big hit because he was slow in his decision making. He wanted to wait until receivers came completely free.
Every single Browns opponent played 8 and 9 man fronts. They showed Colt absolutely no respect and Colt did nothing to make them pay for it. He isn't a finished product but with receivers running down the sidelines with no one within 10 yards only to have Colt never see him or under throw the ball by enough to allow the DB to catch him is frustrating.
We threw the ball inside the 5 and hell we threw a lot but the most TDs Colt had in any game was 2, while facing some of the absolute worst teams in football.
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I will, as I did in a different post, calculate the number of pass attempts per hit/sack: 2010: The Browns allowed 36 sacks and 63 QB Hits in 478 pass attempts. This is a total of 99 hit/sacks, or one every 4.82 pass attempts. 2011: The Browns allowed 39 sacks and 83 QB Hits for a total of 122 hit/sacks in 570 pass attempts. This is one hit/sack every 4.67 pass attempts. This works out to a difference of 2-3 sacks/hits for the year if you use the 2010 pass attempt number. The difference is not that the OL suddenly started blocking worse ... we just started throwing the ball more often. Now maybe we can get past that nonsense? I will quote myself only because there are other teams in that post, and I don't feel like repeating myself. Quote:
Like I said ..... the Browns OL of 2010 and the Browns OL of 2011 were not that much different in sacks/hits when total number of plays are taken into account.
It sounds horrible that they went from 36 to 39 sacks allowed, until one also realizes that they threw the ball 570 times in 2011, and only 478 times in 2010. I think that one could argue that they actually played better in that regard, as they only allowed 3 more sacks in 92 additional pass attempts. Add in that we had a 2nd year Guard on the right, and a rookie Guard on the left ,,,,,,, and it's even more impressive.
The Browns OL allowed a combined total of 122 hits and sacks last year.
Other notables:
The Ravens- 111
The Falcons- 110
Packers- 114
The Lions- 114
The Colts- 116
The Cowboys- 120
The Redskins- 149
The 49'ers- 126
The Steelers- 119
The Jaguars- 120
Da Bears- 136
The Vikings- 125
The Seahags- 164
The Dolphins- 147
The Cardinals- 140
The Rams- 169
Considering that we played with a rookie, a 2nd year, 1st time starter, and a revolving door at RT ...... that's not exactly awful. Considering that we were 11th in pass attempts in the NFL last year ...... I'd say that's not bad at all.
For all of the praise thrown the Niners way ...... they only threw the ball 451 times ..... but got their QB hit/sacked 4 times more than we did.
We threw the ball a lot last year, especially early ...... and the line had some bumps early ...... but played well overall.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 100
Practice Squad
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Practice Squad
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 100 |
Quote:
It's fun to make fun of people with learning disabilities and who get low scores on irrelevant tests.
I wasn't really making fun of a learning disability. I was making fun with how serious he took the meaningless test. The NFL Channel; reported Marino scored something a 15 which tells me it has zero to do with football aptitude. I gave him style points for getting his name right and showing how much he felt the work with a #2 pencil meant.
If he thought he was too dumb - I wouldn't have listed him as of the 3 intriguing prospects we could land. Seems like a conflict of interest.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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