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Also, and one thing that no one really talks about, is that we had an ineffective QB, who played the game in such a way as to cause defenses to pack the box.
I have to disagree, we had a Head Coach/O cord who always called for short routes, and called predictable plays, that allowed the Defense to stuff the box on almost every single play
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Also, and one thing that no one really talks about, is that we had an ineffective QB, who played the game in such a way as to cause defenses to pack the box.
I have to disagree, we had a Head Coach/O cord who always called for short routes, and called predictable plays, that allowed the Defense to stuff the box on almost every single play
Or they weren't too concerned with our receivers.
Until which time we prove otherwise, then they will continue to put 8 in the box, no matter who we have at RB.
Why wouldn't they play the percentages?
If I'm the DC ... I would.
It takes all 11 players executing their assignments properly ... Blocking, passing and receiving (getting open and catching the ball).
Nothing is pointing to just one of those 3. All of the above must improve their execution.
Last edited by FL_Dawg; 04/10/12 06:36 AM.
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There's a difference between not being concerned about our receivers, and not covering that at all, with anyone. I remember one play last year where the outside receiver was covered by air. Literally. No DB took him, and he wasn't accounted for in a zone. McCoy looked at him. The ball was snapped, and the receiver was running by himself. McCoy looked at him again .... Then threw to the underneath receiver. I would have thought that I was seeing things if the announcers hadn't ranted about "how does the QB miss that uncovered receiver?" as well. A quality QB will help his receivers beat single cover with his ball placement. A quality QB will attack single cover, because that's where you get the chance for big plays and TDs. Our QB looks at single cover and decides that it's too risky. He might have to put that ball over the top, or throw it to the outside, and there are just too many bad things that can happen ........  QBs who play scared rarely succeed in the NFL, and McCoy played scared a lot last year. People can blame the receivers, but any QB worth his salt will throw the ball for his receivers to make plays on against single cover. A QB worth anything would trust his receivers to make a play .... and would, at least, take a chance or 2 at making a big play with the odds in his favor. Ours would not. Our QB played the game as if afraid to make a mistake.. Our offense suffered immensely as a result.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Put Colt behind that Saints line and everyone would be asking "What happened to the Saints OL? They suck!!"
mourg...how bout we develop an offensive line in Cleveland that is one of the best in the NFL and not like it is today?
Can the play of your offensive line affect the play of the skilled position players, rbs, wrs/te, qbs?
...the correct answer is YES.
The Browns offensive line play in 2011 was no better than average and that level of play is not going to allow skilled position players to perform to their full potential.
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Brees is fantastic at moving within the pocket and avoiding pressure. Colt has yet to show the ability to move within the pocket to avoid pressure. If a team shows blitz, he starts looking for defenders instead of receivers and ends up getting clobbered.
Brees is a veteran of 11 seasons who had his issues early in his career...and he was on a good offensive team, the Chargers. Brees is near the top of his game now, but has had the good fortune to be on teams that provided a superior supporting cast to help their QB to succeed.
Once the Browns develop the supporting cast, then it would be fair to point the finger at whomever is playing QB, should the offensive performance not improve.
Football is the ultimate team sport, where stars do not achieve greatness without the support from their teammates.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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How about we find a great QB, and then everyone else's play will improve, and we might stand a chance of winning a Super Bowl some year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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So where does the RB enter your equation mac? lol You want to now use the running game as the deciding factor, but we didn't have Hillis.
This is so typical of you ...... you lose your initial argument, so you try to change the debate.
YT...yea, how sneaky of me to point out that the offensive line is also responsible for run blocking as well pass blocking.
Then there is this...you are assuming the 2010 offensive line was great and you compare the 2011 line which was not better than the 2010 line.
Rush blocking, the Browns 2010 line helped generated 1646 rushing yds...ranking 20th in the NFL
....................................2011...............................1531.............................28th..............
Pass blocking, the Browns 2010 line helped generate 2989 passing yds...ranking 29th in the NFL
....................................2011............................3090..............................24th...............
The Browns 2010 line gave up 36 sacks, ranking them 17th in the NFL
................2011...................39............................18th..............
The Browns 2010 line allowed 63 hits, ranking them 6th (fewest) in the NFL
.................2011.................83..........................25th.........................
YT...while you have settled in on one factor to measure the performance of the offensive line...your greatest mistake was to assume the Browns Oline was great in 2010...IT WASN'T.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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No, they were an average OL both years.
I don;t think that anyone is saying that they were world beaters ..... but they were competent, and they were not the weakest part of the offense by any stretch.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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No, they were an average OL both years.
YT...to be "accurate", by every measure the performance of the Browns offensive line in 2011 was "below average"...not even average.
That said, losing two starters, Steinbach at OG for the season and Pashos at RT for the first 3 games didn't help.
Then there is the new offense to learn and the lock out, along with the injuries, which forced Pinkston to start at OG. The Oline did gel in the last 1/3 of the season playing better...but their play was not anything special, even when they appeared to gel.
I'm hoping the Browns finally draft a top talent to play RT...that can be a cornerstone on the right side of the OL for years to come. Then the Browns Oline coach could focus on developing the OGs.
As I said earlier, the Browns have not found an Oline coach that comes close to the level of an Alex Gibbs. His record of producing top performing offensive lines, speaks for itself. I hope the Browns are able to find an Alex Gibbs type Oline coach in the future.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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No, they were an average OL both years.
I don;t think that anyone is saying that they were world beaters ..... but they were competent, and they were not the weakest part of the offense by any stretch.
The funny thing is....the OL was the best unit on Offense BY FAR...especially after the bye...their play improved a lot from early to late season...whereas QB, WR and RB play was consistently bad from start to finish
To scapegoat the OL for shortcomings at the skill positions is laughable at best...really not even worth discussing
#gmstrong
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I agree that it's an impotant draft for the browns this year,, no question. but Quote:
The Browns have taken the quantity over quality approach to drafting lately.
where the hell did that come from? Haden, taylor, sheard, ward....... what is this guy thinking...
#GMSTRONG
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He's referring to the fact that we traded down instead of taking the guy in our slot or even trading up.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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He's referring to the fact that we traded down instead of taking the guy in our slot or even trading up.
so any team that trades down is going for quantity not quality?
what if you as gm feel you need to address the D line and there isn't anyone at the top of the draft you want,,, are you supposed to take the "name" player at the top of the draft or the one you want lower? and shouldn't you try and add picks in the process?
we have 13 picks this year.. I bet we don't take 13 players...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No, they were an average OL both years.
I don;t think that anyone is saying that they were world beaters ..... but they were competent, and they were not the weakest part of the offense by any stretch.
The funny thing is....the OL was the best unit on Offense BY FAR...especially after the bye...their play improved a lot from early to late season...whereas QB, WR and RB play was consistently bad from start to finish
To scapegoat the OL for shortcomings at the skill positions is laughable at best...really not even worth discussing
Yeah, I agree for the most part.
I think that the receivers got something of a bad name because they weren't thrown the ball. Receivers can only catch, run, and block ..... they can't throw themselves the ball.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Kansas City should be on this list. They have not had a quarterback drafted to their team win a game for their team. Seriously, the Chiefs have not had this since September 13, 1987.
That is amazing...Not for lack of trying. Croyle started some 7 or 8 games for them...cept he lost em all.
But wow thats amazing. For a team that has won so many games thats amazing that not 1. I mean Vermeils Chiefs won alot, the early 90s they won a ton...wow
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It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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the early 90s they won a ton...wow
yeah, they had a guy they traded for from the 49ers in those years. hear he was pretty decent.
#gmstrong
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The funny thing is....the OL was the best unit on Offense BY FAR...especially after the bye...their play improved a lot from early to late season...whereas QB, WR and RB play was consistently bad from start to finish
To scapegoat the OL for shortcomings at the skill positions is laughable at best...really not even worth discussing
DJ...the OL was the best unit by far?...I really don't know how one could even measure that, without having the Browns grading system of each position on offense..and I know you don't have that.
DJ...do you have any idea how each lineman graded out for each game?
The best complement I can give the Oline is they did improve at times, mainly later in the season...but they improved to be "below average", when compared to the rest of the NFL.
Concerning your comment about scapegoating the Oline...since when is discussing the stats and "measurable performance" of the Offensive line considered "scapegoating" ?
I doubt you will ever understand the relationship between the performance of the offensive line and the skilled position players.
I'm going to attempt to paint the picture again...a running back cannot make his own hole to run through...he relies on his offensive linemen to open a hole at the point of attack. That is the reason running backs routinely thank their offensive line when they have a productive day.
...If the offensive line does not pass block well, controlling their defensive opponent long enough to allow the QB to setup and pass the ball in the pocket, the QBs play, will suffer.
When a QBs play is affected by the defensive rush, so to will the play of the offenses receivers be affected. This is very basic football we are talking about...an elementary level.
If the play of the Browns offensive line improves, so to will the play of the skilled position players...because they are joined at the hip...you cannot separate the performance of skilled players from the performance of the offensive line which run blocks for RBs and protects the QB on passing plays.
...it is one of the main reasons football is considered the ultimate team sport. All 11 players must complete their assignment if a play is to succeed.
No scapegoating going on here..just the facts...the Browns must have a better performance from their offensive line, if whomever is at QB is going to succeed.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Basically everyone disagrees with you mac. A running back who has a good game thanks his OL. A running back with no vision and burst isn't going to thank the OL in spite of the gaping holes they make. *Sorry I missed all those giant holes guys* Big Ben gets hammered week after week with a shoddy OLine and is successful. Every article I search has the Browns line ranked between average and above average. Pinkston was a rookie and Lauvao a 2nd year player; Pashos is being replaced....there will be improvement on top of an average season last year.
The OL wasn't the primary cause of the poor play from the offense last season. Would having a better OL make the offense better? Derrrrr yeah. Everyone agrees with that.
Being condescending while 90% of the people here disagree with you is pretty ugly mac.
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Big Ben gets hammered week after week with a shoddy OLine and is successful.
I keep hearing this over and over...and I don't see it.
Big Ben gets a ton of time to throw and gets some incredible passing lanes...he gets beat up because he takes a ton of time PLUS 3-4 seconds to throw the ball.
No QB in the league holds the ball longer than him. (Mind you...not every play...but many, many times when he does get hit.)
Just throwing that out there...not interested in debating their line or ours...other than to note the trifecta of Pashos-Hicks-Cousins. 
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think that the receivers got something of a bad name because they weren't thrown the ball. Receivers can only catch, run, and block ..... they can't throw themselves the ball.
 Well...you ARE consistent.
We led the league in drops...that right there secures a "bad name" for a WR core.
Nevermind the route running and the Robiskie cut...Little not playing for a year...Cribbs being what he is...and Norwood being our slot guy.
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that linebacker Joe Mantegna right?
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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#gmstrong
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Uh, the Browns led the league in dropped passes.
It's just as easy to say the QB doesn't catch the ball.
Thomas - The Tank Engine
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Yes it is. However, when I watch the Browns play, and I watch how the ball is delivered, then I make a decision in my head as to what happened. (just like other people do) What I believe happens is that receivers get a little tired of being thrown into kill shots, so they get more concerned about protecting themselves on the little passes than about actually catching the ball. Now people can say that they should be more professional, etc., but these are a lot of young guys too. According to this list, Greg Little was 3rd in the NFL in dropped passes. He averaged only 11 yards/catch. He caught a lot of passes in heavy traffic. The #1, 2, and 3 receivers were Roddy White, Dwayne Bowe, (who everyone hoped we might have a shot at) and Brandon Marshall. (who was used as an excuse for Miami having such a superior offense compared to ours) Next on our team was Ben Watson. He had 3 concussions and 7 drops on the year. Hardesty had 6, and he was pretty bad at just about everything last year. Massaquoi had 6, and he was injured last year, ankle and concussion. However, and regardless of the drops, I still struggle to find what Colt McCoy does well. I asked someone this before and they answered "everything". I disagree. I think that he throws moderately well on the run on a roll out. However this cuts the field in half for the defense. I think that he can complete short passes, although they are rarely in optimum position for the receiver to make a play with the ball after the catch. McCoy has speed, but that sometimes gets him in trouble outside the pocket. I worry that he "plays shorter" than he is, and when the QB is only 6'1" to start with, that's a huge concern. I honestly believe that this is a big reason he does better when outside the pocket. However, when I look at what a successful QB should do, and compare it to what I see on the field from Colt McCoy, I don't see any of those things. McCoy plays a very careful, timid kind of game at QB. He takes no chances at all, even when the odds appear to be stacked in his favor. He ignores single cover down the field in order to wait for a short route to open. I don't see the natural aggressiveness that great QBs have ... the desire to attack the defense ...the desire to make them pay for single coverage, like QBs from Bernie Kosar on down the line have done. In short, I see the ability to make some of the throws, but not the ability to be a successful NFL QB. Are our receivers perfect? Not in the least. Do I think that a QB can be effective with the receiveres we have? Yep, I do.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Are our receivers perfect? Not in the least. Do I think that a QB can be effective with the receiveres we have? Yep, I do.
Keep telling yourself that and you might convince yourself, but you will never convince an opposing DC of that.
Heck if we get a go to WR Colt might actually start to look pretty good and Lord knows we can't have none of that.
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Well, it would be hard for him to look much worst, in all honesty.
If he doesn't look significantly better, and I really mean significantly, he better be replaced by someone ...... because we really have no idea what we have at other positions when the QB plays poorly.
I am reminded when I said that our OL wasn't that bad when Frye was the QB, and I got blasted. Then DA took over, after Frye was sacked something like 6 times in less than a half, and he was sacked, IIRC, 23 times the rest of the year. Did our OL suck ..... or did the QB add to their difficulties? Do our WRs suck, or are they average guys finding it hard to play up to average given the struggles at the QB position?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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People who think the receivers drop passes and use that as their support for Colt won't change their minds. It doesn't matter that Colt throws behid them nearly every time, and when he doesn't over the middle he leads them in to big hits.
I am with you. A QB makes the receivers more than the receivers make the QB.
I don't care who you give to Colt, he will limit them to 80% of their potential.
The coaching staff see this . If they didn't and thought Colt was a crackerjack player, they wouldn't have made the trade effort they just tried to pull off.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Well, it would be hard for him to look much worst, in all honesty.
If he doesn't look significantly better, and I really mean significantly, he better be replaced by someone ...... because we really have no idea what we have at other positions when the QB plays poorly.
I am reminded when I said that our OL wasn't that bad when Frye was the QB, and I got blasted. Then DA took over, after Frye was sacked something like 6 times in less than a half, and he was sacked, IIRC, 23 times the rest of the year. Did our OL suck ..... or did the QB add to their difficulties? Do our WRs suck, or are they average guys finding it hard to play up to average given the struggles at the QB position?
DA had a real good receiver in JJ who knew how to get open and catch the ball.
K2 was pretty effective that year at TE and he had an actual RT in Ryan Tucker.
I think that we have some Talent in a few of our WR's , but we don't have that one guy who will demade attention on any given play.
Whether our QB is Colt McCoy or another he is going to need a guy like that. That guy will also help whoever is our RB too.
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No, they were an average OL both years.
I don;t think that anyone is saying that they were world beaters ..... but they were competent, and they were not the weakest part of the offense by any stretch.
The funny thing is....the OL was the best unit on Offense BY FAR...especially after the bye...their play improved a lot from early to late season...whereas QB, WR and RB play was consistently bad from start to finish
To scapegoat the OL for shortcomings at the skill positions is laughable at best...really not even worth discussing
Yeah, I agree for the most part.
I think that the receivers got something of a bad name because they weren't thrown the ball. Receivers can only catch, run, and block ..... they can't throw themselves the ball.
they were thrown the ball, they just had more drops then anyone else...
But I suppose that if Payton Manning were doing the throwing, they'd have caught the ball right
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Every article I search has the Browns line ranked between average and above average.
kingcob...could you please post them or the links to the stories...I want to read them.
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The OL wasn't the primary cause of the poor play from the offense last season. Would having a better OL make the offense better? Derrrrr yeah. Everyone agrees with that.
kingcob...don't know that I used the word "primary" cause..
Let me get this straight...you agree that a better offensive line would make the offense better...but the offensive line play can't be "a reason" for poor performance from those playing the skilled positions on offense??
Seems you are really trying to split hairs here.
I have said a team's skilled position players will not perform to their full potential if they do not have the support of good offensive line play....you agree kingcob?
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Being condescending while 90% of the people here disagree with you is pretty ugly mac.
kingcob...about this...if 9 out of 10 people here disagree with me and I continue to stand my ground...somehow that makes me "condescending"?
I'm very confident in my view on the subject of the offensive line's role in the overall performance of an offense and how their play affects the play of the rb, qb, te, and wrs.
My confidence comes from my experience...I know what I'm talking about. I've learned that football basics do not change, regardless of the level of football being played. From peewee football to the NFL, the same basics of the game apply.
kingcob...you can call me names and do your best to belittle me...good luck with that...I could care less what your opinion is of me...
...but when it comes to football, if you care to discuss your experiences and football philosophy, I will engage you in that discussion.
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What I believe happens is that receivers get a little tired of being thrown into kill shots, so they get more concerned about protecting themselves on the little passes than about actually catching the ball. Now people can say that they should be more professional, etc., but these are a lot of young guys too.
YT...so what you are saying is the Browns WRs are chickencrap?
Not sure I would agree...Little doesn't seem to have a problem taking hits and Cribbs is tough...Massaquoi did not have a good year and needs to pick it up or he will be gone. Not sure if Momass has the toughness needed to play in the AFC North.
Every WRs in the NFL gets hit and if they are not tough enough mentally and physically to take the hits without it affecting their future play, they will be out of the NFL sooner than later.
Now this comment, is a gem..."What I believe happens is that receivers get a little tired of being thrown into kill shots"...
...another way to point the finger at McCoy...it's McCoy's fault if the defense lays the wood to our WRs...yep, that is what you are saying..."kill shots" are Colt McCoy's fault.
YT...do you know "who" DESIGNS the plays run by the offense?
....I guess in your mind, McCoy is drawing plays in the dirt, leading our WRs into the teeth of the defense, setting them up for big hits...right?
It's now McCoy's fault if the defense gets a good lick on any of our receivers.
Whose playbook is it, YT?...hint, SHURMUR !!!
Who calls the plays, YT?....again, SHURMUR !!!
Do you get it yet?...McCoy runs the play that is called and that play comes from a playbook Shurmur designed.
I agree, it would be great if McCoy had the leisure of surveying the field to locate only those WRs who are open and running away from their defender and not toward them...but the reality is, our QBs, as a rule, don't have that amount of time. If they see someone open, they are going to try to get the ball to them.
Now if you don't want your team's receivers to get hit...better write to Shurmur and tell him to toss the plays you don't like, out of his playbook.
If the Browns draft WRs who can't take a hit, shame on them. If you are playing in the AFC North, you better have WRs who are tough mentally and physically because regardless of whom your QB is, the receivers are going to get hit.
BTW...I believe everyone knows Greg Little was out of football for year and he was bound to be affected in some way...it showed up in the number of drops he had. Now with one year under his belt, I look for less drops from him this year. Greg Little is a stud and if the Browns bring in another physical
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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I washed my hands of Colt last year during the Titans game.
Very simply...he doesn't throw the ball with average accuracy for an NFL QB.
He doesn't have a big arm.
He's short so he has to deal more with passing lanes.
He's small and slight thus more prone to injury.
In order for him to succeed he has to be super accurate with the football and he's not.
Add to the fact that he threw receivers into concussions.
And I'm done. Let's move on and let him be the backup to the next guy.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,547
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,547 |
Remember when Braylon Edwards led the NFL with 23 back in 2008? IIRC, he had something like 4 or 5 the years before .......but QB change after QB change seemed to affect him badly ......... especially going to Brady Quinn who had no clue how to play the position, despite being the "most NFL ready QB" of all time ...... or some such crap. What QB led the league in having receivers drop the ball "for" him? Matthew Stafford. I bet that most of his drops were further down the field than any we had last year. Roddy White led the league in dropped passes last year. 2nd was a guy that a great number of people on this board wanted us to go after .... Dwayne Bowe. According to ESPN we had only 10 dropped pass in 2010. We changed 1 receiver, and played a couple of different RBs ...... but most of our drops were at WR and TE. (Massaquoi and Watson each had 7 last year, exceeding the total of drops for the year the year before by themselves) What was the biggest difference between 2010 and 2011?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Quote:
What was the biggest difference between 2010 and 2011?
The drama that was the off season leading almost right up to opening day.
#GMSTRONG
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