DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Trayvon Martin pt 2

Impressive sir.

I really don't feel like rehashing everything else.

Premeditated murder is the crime of wrongfully causing the death of another human being (also known as murder) after rationally considering the timing or method of doing so, in order to either increase the likelihood of success, or to evade detection or apprehension.

Is that Florida's def? Because that would definitely be more relevant here. I pulled mine out of the Multistate BarBri.

...and more comes out. Might stop the "Zimmerman had no cuts on him" from Sharpton's "smoking gun" police video.

web page

Possible New Evidence Shows George Zimmerman's Bloodied Head
By MATT GUTMAN and SENI TIENABESO | Good Morning America – 15 hours ago

A new photograph obtained exclusively by ABC News showing the bloodied back of George Zimmerman's head, which was taken three minutes after he shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, gives possible credence to his claim that Martin had bashed his head against the concrete as he fought for his life.

Click here to view the image. Warning: graphic content.

The revelation comes as his attorney and prosecutors prepare for Zimmerman's bail hearing today, which could result in his being released from jail. Zimmerman, 28, is being held on charges of second-degree murder for the Feb. 26 shooting of Martin, which could carry a life sentence if he is convicted.

The exclusive image shows blood trickling down the back of George Zimmerman's head from two small cuts. It also shows a possible contusion forming on the crown of his head. The original police report that night notes that the back of Zimmerman's head was wet, and that he was bleeding from the nose and head.

Zimmerman told police that night that he shot and killed the teenager in self-defense after Martin punched him and pounced on him. Zimmerman told police that Martin then bashed his head into the concrete sidewalk during the altercation that took place in the tidy middle-class development of the Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford, Fla.

Zimmerman was treated at the scene by paramedics, then cuffed and driven in a police cruiser to the Sanford police station. He was questioned for hours and later released. In police surveillance video obtained last month by ABC News Zimmerman's wounds are not apparent, and there were no bandages on his head.

Zimmerman was not admitted to a hospital or given stitches the night of the incident.

The photographer told ABC News exclusively that they did not see the scuffle that night, but did hear it. The source saw Martin's prostrate body on the wet grass and claims the gunpowder burns on Martin's gray hoodie were clearly visible; the gunpowder marks could show that Martin was shot at very close range.

The photographer says that after the shooting Zimmerman asked to call his wife. When the photographer asked what to say, Zimmerman allegedly blurted out "man, just tell her I shot someone."

ABC News has learned that investigators have seen the photo.

"How bad could it have been if they didn't take him to the hospital [and] didn't stitch him up," Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump said in a statement to ABC News in response to the image. "The special prosecutor has seen all the evidence and still believes George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin."

Zimmerman's attorney Mark O'Mara says his client has spent enough time behind bars.

"He needs to get out. He should not be in jail," O'Mara said. "I want him out because I need him out. He wants to get out. His family wants it out. It should happen."

If Zimmerman is released, his attorney tells ABC News that he has a number of potential safe houses prepared. In the meantime O'Mara says the former altar boy, who has become America's highest profile defendant, has been reading the Bible while in protective custody.

In a bail hearing in Florida, the burden of proof to deny bail, even in a second degree murder trial, is higher than necessary to seek a conviction in a trial.

"They would have to prove that the presumption of guilt is great, and that the proof is evident," said O'Mara.

In the capias -- similar to a warrant -- filed against Zimmerman last week, Special Prosecutor Angela Corey and her team set bail at "none." In order to reduce that to bail at a set monetary sum, Corey's team would have to essentially prove their case -- something experts tell ABC News is unlikely at this point in the legal process.

O'Mara said he doubts the prosecutor will reveal their case before trial, even before discovery.

Oh I was pretty convinced a while ago that Zimmerman had been bloodied.. it was in the police report, he was treated at the scene by EMS... the question that remains is, who started it.

Well...whodathunkit?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/15/records-detail-george-zimmerman-medical-injuries/

Where is the outrage? Where are the protesters? Where is the King?

Nothing like the facts to cause the media and "pot-stirers" to simply look the other way.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story

Very clear evidence supporting the case that Zimmerman was attacked.

No evidence showing a physical assault on Martin.

No evidence of any racist attitude on Zimmerman's part.

Lots of racists involved, however.

Get ready for the riots. Remember the Korean shopkeepers.

Where's the outrage and protesters? Uh, they're still trying to debunk the facts of the Duke lacrosse case.

Jesse and Al? They've moved on.

Facts. The guy still has to go to trial. I hope the jury is able to look at the facts.

I'm NOT saying Zimmerman is innocent - but it's looking like his story is holding water. There is probably other things we don't know yet as well.

One thing we do know is race played a part in the media coverage at the time.

I hope that he goes free if he was not guilty.

I still completely believe that he caused the situation through his actions though.

Yeah. I've been maintaining a manslaughter charge sounds about right all along. It's an unnecessary death but not an outright, cold-blooded murder. Either way you slice it, if you've taken self defense training, have 10 years and 100 lbs. on a kid you initially followed and pursued, then end up needing to shoot him because he's kicking your ass, then you're kind of pathetic.

As for, "where's the protests and outrage?" remarks, where was ANY of the conservative contingency of this boards' outrage when there was a thread about Fox news winning a Florida State Appellate Court decision granting the media the right to outright lie to the public? There were plenty of, "Oh, they all lie, anyway" responses. Why do you guys only now have this concern over media integrity?

Please explain exactly what Zimmerman did to justify being punched in the nose, and face, repeatedly, and then to have his head bashed into a concrete sidewalk, again repeatedly.

So far, all I see is that he looked at Martin, for a long time, then got out of his truck and moved in his direction from some distance away. Then he stopped, and waited for the police to arrive. No contact, no threat, no assault, no attack. Nothing even remotely resembling any of those things.

To say that Zimmerman "caused" this incident by his own actions seems to me an extreme position, and one that is totally unjustifiable.

What I believe happened is this - Martin ran away, avoided Zimmerman, then circled back to observe and heard Zimmerman on the phone to the police. Martin was most likely already catching all hell from his Dad for his school suspension, and figured any police involvement would send the old man ballistic. So he attacked an innocent citizen doing nothing more than his civic duty, out of pure anger and quite possibly racial hatred.

Zimmerman did not cause, create, or instigate this tragedy in any way. He reported a suspicious individual, and for so doing was viciously attacked. He took a fair amount of damage before defending himself with his firearm.

If you live in a big city, get prepared. It is going to get ugly. Automatic weapons are your best bet for survival and safety, or just get the heck out while your house and business are looted and burned to the ground.

However, nelson - realize you are now guilty of..............saying what you THINK happened.

Just as we weren't privvy to the medical details last month, or 2 months ago - we still don't know all the facts today.

If I was being followed by someone, and they didn't identify themselves ....... I tried to lose them on a sidewalk behind a building, and they got out of their car and followed me on foot ...... I'd be nervous and concerned. I don't know if I would have punched the guy, but who knows what a person would do if they believed that their life might be in danger from the person tailing them, in car and on foot?

He initially did what he should have done, by reporting what he thought was a suspicious person. The problem is that he didn't stop there. If he called the police, and then sat and waited for them, then the situation would never have happened. Instead he followed Martin on foot, and it can convincingly be argued that he made Martin fear for his life. That is the entire reason that Martin attacked him, in essence, standing his ground ...... and because of that he was shot to death.

I do believe that Zimmerman has some culpability in the events as they unfolded. If each person involved had reason to fear for his life, and each had a right to stand his ground, then I think that it goes back to the question of "What caused the chain of events to be put into play?". He was the instigator of everything action along the way except, perhaps, the final attack by Martin. If Martin was also "standing his ground" against what he saw as a serious potential threat to his life, , then does that give Zimmerman the right to shoot him? This is a really tricky situation.

If you really think that being followed for a short time is a convincing argument that Martin was reasonably in fear of his life, frankly, I think that's nuts. BUT, Huge BUTT, once contact is broken that fear should be at an end and no longer a consideration.

Of course, what I said is what I think happened, that is why I clearly stated it as such. The important detail is that EVERY THING I am proposing is supported by, and includes ALL of, the available facts.

Martin DID NOT "stand his ground". He left the area, broke contact, was out of sight. At that point, there is NO threat, NO danger. Martin came BACK to the scene, HE caused the continuation of the incident. He attacked Zimmerman.

There remains the possibility that Zimmerman, standing by the mailboxes waiting for the police to arrive, made the first aggressive move, BUT ONLY AFTER Martin returned to the scene. There is, however, NO evidence of ANY aggressive move by Zimmerman. There IS evidence, now overwhelming and conclusive, that Martin did significant damage to Zimmerman.

I realize that many are convinced that it is somehow impossible for a teenage black man to attack an older white or even Hispanic male. I really do not know how anybody with the brains God gave a walnut could come to this conclusion, but I do understand that it is there.

The injuries to Zimmerman are real. The skinned knuckles I wondered about earlier are real. The lack of other injuries to Martin is real. The recorded conversation showing the cessation of "following", the break of contact, and lack of aggression by Zimmerman is real. The lack of racist comments and/or feeling on Zimmerman's part is real.

It is also clear that the girlfriend's claim about Martin's phone call being cut off as though he were pushed is not supportable.

Now I'll tell you what will be a key detail in this case which has not yet been revealed. In what direction was Martin heading when he went out of sight? If this was towards his father's house, and then he reversed direction from a safe haven to return to confront Zimmerman, then the conclusion of who was the aggressor becomes inescapable.

Well .... I gotta tell you ..... if I have someone following me in a car ...... watching my every move .......

And then that person gets out of their car and follows me on foot when I duck behind a building ......

Well, that's gonna concern me quite a bit. I think that it would concern most people.

It's been established that Martin was concerned about the person following him. He expressed that concern to his girlfriend on the phone.

Concern doesn't equate to action.

Let me put it this way: you could follow me all day, or all week. If all you're doing is following me, the stand your ground law does not come into effect. If I, literally, stand my ground and you approach me and show a weapon or cause me to fear for my life - then "stand your ground" does apply.

However, if you approach me, hands out, asking what I'm doing - I do NOT have the right to attack you - be it with fists, a knife, a gun - nothing.

Stand your ground means you do NOT have the first obligation to flee before you defend yourself from imminent attack. Imminent attack does not mean someone approaching you - it means someone that has pulled a weapon and threatened you, or someone that has physically confronted you in a menacing manner.

We still don't know all the facts, so I can't "judge" Zimmerman OR Martin. It is interesting, these last facts - the med reports - that we are now hearing for the first time - it's interesting how they fit what Zimmerman said.

I do believe, if memory serves me, Zimmerman is facing a 2nd degree murder charge. I am NOT an attorney..........but it would seem to me his wounds from that night would lend credence to his story.

It will be up to a jury to decide - and I hope that the jury isn't seated with a racial bias already established. From everything I have been able to gather, race had no part in the actual events - race was brought in later by the media.

Again - Zimmerman is facing charges and will be in court. I hope all the facts are known and the jury bases their decision on facts - not media or feelings.

That is simply not correct. What IS correct is that at some point, Martin became aware that Zimmerman was armed. This does not mean that Zimmerman took any action at all to make Martin aware of the gun. That is unjustified speculation, and to state so as fact rather than possibility is unacceptable.

Now, it would be reasonable to assume that Martin did not see the gun from 15 feet away and then continue his attack. From Zimmerman's statement, Martin's awareness of the gun was demonstrated AFTER he was on top of Zimmerman, and bashing his head against the concrete. It was immediately after Martin's reach for the gun that Zimmerman, most likely perceiving a greater level of threat, drew and fired.

I have seen no info on how the gun was carried, but we do know Zimmerman was wearing a jacket, and it would be reasonable to assume that the gun was in a holster or waistband under the jacket. Where it would not be visible until close physical contact and/or scuffle happened.

Autopsy Report: Martin Shot From "Intermediate Range"

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/0...opsy-shows?lite

They never quite define what this means in feet -- but it sounds like the shot didn't come during a hand to hand scuffle.

I would think that close range would be really close .... like a foot or 2 .... and intermediate would be beyond that range.

If the shooter was on the ground, and the person who was shot was standing, that could be enough to be intermediate ..... at least I would think so.

*Edit*

It appears that intermediate range can be as close as inches from the skin .... at least according to CBS News......

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57...tors_picks=true

The reports also noted the fatal wound's surrounded by a two-by-two inch pattern called stippling, caused by gunpower burns. It suggests Zimmerman fired inches away from the teenager.

Just out of curiosity...

If Zimmerman is found not guilty, does he have any legal action he can take against the news agency's that had him pegged as a murder?

It is the STAND YOUR GROUND defense. It is not the LEAVE, AND THEN COME BACK LATER defense.

This is really not that complicated.

If he left and came back, which we have no evidence, aside from, apparently, Google Maps. I think that if he'd returned home, that fact would have been made very public by this point. I also don't think he would've taken candy and a soft drink with him if he was setting out looking for a confrontation. That, of course, is my opinion.

The law states that you can use force to defend yourself if you believe the use of force against you to be imminent. If Martin believed he was being pursued by Zimmerman, which he clearly did if he fled from him and later asked "why are you following me", then it's completely plausible that he believed Zimmerman was following him with the intent to harm him in some way. Note that I initially said that Martin did not have an obligation to retreat. I didn't say that he had the right to start a confrontation.

I also have my doubts that Zimmerman's firearm didn't enter into the equation until after he'd been knocked to the ground, simply because I don't believe that someone who had just been punched in the face with enough force to apparently fracture his cheekbone and then have his head repeatedly slammed into a concrete sidewalk by an assailant who was on top of him would have the wherewithal to suppress the instinct to fight back in order to instead draw a firearm. I believe that it was drawn either prior to Martin hitting Zimmerman, or after they had possibly become disengaged from each other. Again, just my opinion.

I also give very little credence to Zimmerman's accounts of the events, based partially on fact (his incidents of violence against a woman and a police officer) and partially on perception (I believe he was prone to vigilantism). My opinion.

At the end of the day, what it boils down to for me is the improper application of a poorly worded law. It's evident that the intent of the law is to empower people to defend themselves against threats of violence. However, with the way it's constructed it amounts to a license to kill, where a person can kill another under the veil of self-defense even where it is not, in my opinion, justified or, at the very worst, totally untrue. Again, my opinion.

Most phones today have GPS. I wonder if phone companies can "look back" to a certain date as to where their phones were at certain times?

Man, that's kind of a scary thought if the can.

How are you ignoring the RECORDED 911 call which absolutely, plainly, and clearly shows that there was a break in contact, shortly after Zimmerman left his truck. He is calmly giving directions to the dispatcher for well over a minute, AFTER announcing that Martin was "out of sight", AFTER complying with the request to stop "following" Martin.

Note that the dispatcher did NOT say "chasing", merely "following".

Also, you said "apparently" broken cheekbone, we have the official medical report, full and complete, are you saying you expect to hear more accurate information from some other source? Al Sharpton, perhaps? Maybe the funeral home guy who missed Trayvon's skinned knuckles? Any racial bias, here, at the funeral home chosen by a black family? I'm not saying they chose it for the bias, I'm just saying there is a good chance the company is black-owned and operated.

We don't know what else Zimmerman might have done, in that initial phase. He did NOT yell or use any racially offensive language towards Martin, we can hear the whole lack of encounter. When Martin decided NOT to go towards his home and safety, Zimmerman was still in the same location where he lost contact. The second encounter happened there. Who said or did what first, we do not know. If Zimmerman made the first move, it was remarkably ineffective as there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of this. What we do know is that Zimmerman was assaulted and severely beaten. The eyewitness accounts of Martin on top are now verified by evidence.

As for having the gun out first, I can't see being punched in the nose and face, knocked down, head bashed into the concrete, plus STILL having the gun in your hand and waiting that long to use it. However, I can see that someone straddling another person on the ground would notice by contact a gun in a waistband or holster.

As for the account of Zimmerman standing over a dead Martin. Well, now, after being assaulted, laid out on the ground, you shoot the guy, at some point you are going to stand up, and then he will be laying down and you will be standing over him. What else do people EXPECT to happen here? This shows absolutely nothing about the initial assault.

Quote:

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At the end of the day, what it boils down to for me is the improper application of a poorly worded law. It's evident that the intent of the law is to empower people to defend themselves against threats of violence. However, with the way it's constructed it amounts to a license to kill, where a person can kill another under the veil of self-defense even where it is not, in my opinion, justified or, at the very worst, totally untrue. Again, my opinion.

---

And that about sums it up. Yellow-belly Zimmerman made the initial contact with the kid, then had to shoot the kid once he found out he could not fight with his hands! All this crap about the kid hiding..etc.. is non-sense because if anyone would look at where the crime took place, there is no place for the kid to hide without hoping into a neighbor's backyard area. Poo-butt Zimmerman could not have lost that kid 6'3"-160lbs if he tried and especially not being heard. So a law that is intended to protect a person who eminent danger, not a skittle armed kid with ice tea! Zimmerman is a punk!!

I agree completely.

some pictures

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/17/justice/gallery/zimmerman-injuries/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/17/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


(CNN) -- Just over two weeks after the fatal shooting -- and less than a month before an arrest was made -- police in Sanford, Florida, urged prosecutors to take George Zimmerman into custody after arguing his killing of Trayvon Martin was "ultimately avoidable."

This disclosure came out Thursday, part of a wealth of information released that is related to the case -- including the medical's examiner's finding that the 17-year-old Martin had traces of drugs in his system in an autopsy conducted hours after his death.

Overall, the newly released material paints the most complete picture yet of how investigators built the case, as well as its complexity. The police perspective was most succinctly stated in a March 13 "capias request" -- a request that someone be taken into custody -- sent to the state's attorney. It speaks to the fact that Zimmerman ignored a police dispatcher's advice not to chase Martin, as well as his communications with Martin prior to the shooting.

New documents shed light on Trayvon Martin killing

"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog (sic) in an effort to dispel each party's concern" the request said. "There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity."

In his 911 call just before the shooting, Zimmerman had speculated that the teen looked like he was "up to no good or he's on drugs or something."

But Martin's defenders have portrayed Zimmerman as the aggressor, accusing him of profiling the African-American teen. Plus, one expert notes the traces of the marijuana-related substance found in the teen's system -- as measured hours after his death -- don't necessarily speak to any level of intoxication, while another adds that marijuana use typically doesn't make people prone to aggression.

Martin's blood contained THC, which is the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, according to autopsy results released Thursday. The autopsy was conducted February 27, the day after the teenager was shot dead.

Toxicology tests found elements of the drug in the teenager's chest blood -- 1.5 nanograms per milliliter of one type (THC), as well as 7.3 nanograms of another type (THC-COOH) -- according to the medical examiner's report. There also was a presumed positive test of cannabinoids in Martin's urine, according to the medical examiner's report. It was not immediately clear how significant these amounts were.

No precise levels on the urine were released.

New medical report may help Zimmerman
Dr. Michael Policastro, a toxicologist, cautioned against reading too much into the blood THC levels, adding that one cannot make a direct correlation between those findings and a level of intoxication.

He also noted levels of THC, which can linger in a person's system for days, can spike after death in certain areas of the body because of redistribution.

And Dr. Drew Pinsky, an addiction specialist who hosts a show on CNN's sister network HLN, added that marijuana typically does not make users more aggressive.

Concentrations of THC routinely rise to 100 to 200 ng/ml after marijuana use, though it typically falls to below 5 ng/ml within three hours of it being smoked, according to information on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's website.

While some states have zero-tolerance policies for any drug traces for driving while impaired, others set certain benchmarks, the website of California's Department of Alcohol and Drug Programs notes. In Nevada, that equates to 2 ng/ml for THC and 5 ng/ml for THC-COOH -- also known as marijuana metabolite. The cutoff level in Ohio is 2 ng/ml for THC and 50 ng/ml for THC-COOH.

According to the medical examiner's report, which was one of several documents on the case released Thursday by the office of special prosecutor Angela Corey, Martin died from a gunshot wounded to chest fired from "intermediate range" -- within 36 inches.

The autopsy report lists the manner of death as a homicide.

Zimmerman, 28, is charged with second-degree murder for killing Martin in the Sanford neighborhood where the African-American teen was staying.

Martin's father, Tracy, had taken his son with him to Sanford -- about four hours away from the boy's home and where the father's fiance lived -- after the teen was suspended for 10 days from Michael M. Krop High School in Miami.

According to records obtained by the Miami Herald, Martin had been suspended from school three times: once for writing graffiti on a door, another time for school truancy and the last time due to drug residue being found in his backpack.

Speaking of her son's suspension to CNN's Anderson Cooper, Sybrina Fulton said, "Whatever he had dealings with the school, it was not criminal, it was not violent, he's never been arrested."

Just before the shooting, Zimmerman called 911 to complain about a suspicious person in his neighborhood.

In the call, Zimmerman -- a neighborhood watch volunteer -- said he was following Martin after the teen started to run, prompting the dispatcher to tell him, "We don't need you to do that."

Zimmerman apparently disregarded that advice.

Much has been made about whether Zimmerman during that call used a racial epithet in referring to Martin. But an FBI analysis, released Thursday, determined that the word could not be definitively identified "due to weak signal level and poor recording quality."

A screaming voice could be heard on other 911 calls placed by neighbors, with some speculating those screams came from Martin and others that they belonged to Zimmerman. The FBI did not make a final determination either way, citing several reasons including the fact they came during "an extreme emotional state," there weren't enough words to make a good comparison and the sound quality was low and distant.

FBI analysis -- Zimmerman's 911 call (pdf -- strong language)

Zimmerman claimed, according a police report released earlier, that he'd been "assaulted (by Martin) and his head was struck on the pavement."

According a report from the Sanford Fire Department, released Thursday— Zimmerman had "abrasions to his forehead," "bleeding/tenderness to his nose," and a "small laceration to the back of his head" when emergency personnel arrived at the scene at 7:27 p.m. -- six minutes after they were first called.

By that time, Martin had no apparent pulse, according to the fire and EMS report. Emergency personnel attempted mouth-to-mask resuscitation and chest compressions, to no avail. He was pronounced dead at 7:30 p.m.

Prosecutors have said Zimmerman, who is a white Hispanic, killed the unarmed teenager unjustly after profiling him. Zimmerman, who has pleaded not guilty, has said that he shot Martin in self-defense.

The start of the trial hasn't been set.

The case put a spotlight on race relations, spurring protests nationwide and drawing prominent civil rights leaders to central Florida denouncing the actions of Sanford police and calling for Zimmerman's arrest. Special prosecutor Angela Corey announced he'd been charged on April 11, weeks after Sanford police initially declined to do so.

It also raised questions about gun laws, as well as the merits of the "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida, and similar laws in other states that allow people to use deadly force anywhere they feel a reasonable threat of serious injury or death.

CNN's Vivian Kuo and Danielle Dellorto and InSession's Jessica Thill contributed to this report.