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http://www.cleveland.com/budshaw/index.ssf/2012/04/if_the_cleveland_browns_keep_t.htmlIf the Cleveland Browns keep trading down, why are we surprised they keep falling down? Bud Shaw's Sunday Sports Spin Bud Shaw, The Plain Dealer CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The NFL draft, like the human body, is a complex organism. So let's make it simple. The touchdown is connected to the great playmaker. Football anatomy class is over. Teams that need playmakers as desperately as the Browns do can justify certain Top 5 picks without too much fear of reprisal or failure. Alabama running back Trent Richardson would be one. Oklahoma State's Justin Blackmon would be another. It doesn't matter whether Richardson figures to have a shorter life span than a left tackle. It doesn't matter whether Blackmon isn't Larry Fitzgerald or A.J. Green. What the Browns can't justify is trading down and certainly not out of the Top 10. Not for the third time in four years. The team with the most picks -- the Browns have 13 -- may win the draft. But great players win games, which unfortunately for the Browns continue to be played in months other than April. Look at the Browns' roster, and 9-23 over the past two years feels about right. The NFL draft isn't a Mega Millions lottery. The odds heavily favor the little people cashing in, but they have to be willing to help themselves. Bypassing the draft's top talent too often is one way to keep ending up in the top of the draft. In the category of what can't be justified for the Browns, I'd say a right tackle. That's what Matt Kalil would be on this team. And any defensive player whose job isn't to rush the passer, at least while the league still allows rushing the passer (Sorry, Morris Claiborne). The Browns' No. 4 pick is rumored to be in great demand from a few teams outside the Top 10. Philadelphia is one. The Eagles pick 15th. They have two choices in the second round from dealing quarterback Kevin Kolb to Arizona. By the time No. 15 comes along, though, the Browns will have passed on Richardson, Blackmon and possibly the second and third best receivers in the draft. I get they have a lot of holes. Well, they also already have a lot of picks. And their most glaring hole? It's the game changer. Mathematical odds suggest there will come a year when the Browns are too successful to be rewarded with a top-10 pick, when they will have to find stars late in the first round, as other perennial contenders do, and key contributors later in the draft. We haven't seen any evidence in the last 20 years, but it's theoretically possible that it could someday happen. So why make the talent search harder than it has to be this year? The No. 4 pick is just sitting there looking inviting. And the draft is saying to the Browns, "Help yourself."
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Trading down last year gave us the best rookie DT in a very deep DT class. It also gave us Little who led rookie receivers in the number of receptions even with no QB to speak of. OO and it also gave us the #22 pick this year where we will add another starter.
We added both talent and depth 1 year ago. If I can get Tannehill, Claiborne or Richardson and also gaining another pick. I go for it. Taking Kalil would just be dumb.
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<rebuttal>
Trading down is a perfectly reasonable option this season.
</rebuttal>
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I totally agree with the article. No talented playmakers are ever found outside of the top 4 picks in the draft.
Someone should go tell MIke Wallace he shouldn't be playing well....he was picked in the 3rd round and after a lot of other WRs.
The draft is about finding guys that can play well in your system. If LeMichael James is a better fit in your offense than Richardson.....DON'T draft Richardson.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Quote:
What the Browns can't justify is trading down and certainly not out of the Top 10. Not for the third time in four years.
What Shaw fails to understand, Holmgren and Heckert do not have to justify their draft choices to Shaw or anyone else in the media.
It depends on what is offered to the Browns for their #4 pick...
IF the price is right, trading down again, accumulating more of those 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks that can be used this year and in future drafts, might be the best move the Browns could make to fill as many of the remaining needs as they can.
Every year at this time, the media guys like Shaw, put on their draft guru hats and pretend they know how to run the Browns draft. Do the talking heads have the draft resources the Browns have...NO !!! But that does not stop the talking heads from making bold statements while they pretend they are the Browns GM.
Sometimes there are offers made, that is hard to refuse...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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In addition. The best pass rusher in the draft will be taken somewhere around 10-15 so ya know...trading down is fine
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
<rebuttal>
Trading down is a perfectly reasonable option this season.
</rebuttal>
If we trade out of the top 10 we better be getting a 1st round next year... if we do that I'm ok going out of the top ten... I prefer if we trade down that we stay within the top 6.
<><
#gmstrong
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I prefer trading down as far as it takes to get an additional 1st next year. We weren't able to get Luck (or for some Griffin) so we will not be fixing the Qb position this year. We need to try to position ourselves to do that next year.
We will never be a successful team year in and year out until we fix the Qb position. We were planning on doing that this year but it didn't work out. Just because it didn't work out this year doesn't mean that we should stop trying.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Quote:
I prefer trading down as far as it takes to get an additional 1st next year. We weren't able to get Luck (or for some Griffin) so we will not be fixing the Qb position this year. We need to try to position ourselves to do that next year.
We will never be a successful team year in and year out until we fix the Qb position. We were planning on doing that this year but it didn't work out. Just because it didn't work out this year doesn't mean that we should stop trying.
You can't play/draft for next year possibilities or you will never be a winning program. What if we actually put some talent in our WR core or RB''s this year. I think it's obvious we gona select an OL with our higher pick. Whichever QB is here next year will need those players/picks to be sucessfull.
You cant create gold with alchemy. You need great players around a QB to be sucessfull. It happens with all the great QB's. Aikmen, Breez, Rodgers, BBen... etc. All of these QB's either struggled early on until talent was put around them or were place in a system with talent around them. Peyton Manning is the exception not the rule. but he even had Harrison, Wayne, E. James, basically talent at the skill positions to work with.
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Quote:
Trading down last year gave us the best rookie DT in a very deep DT class. It also gave us Little who led rookie receivers in the number of receptions even with no QB to speak of. OO and it also gave us the #22 pick this year where we will add another starter.
We added both talent and depth 1 year ago. If I can get Tannehill, Claiborne or Richardson and also gaining another pick. I go for it. Taking Kalil would just be dumb.
But, they are not game changers. That's the point of the article. We added talent, but nobody that will change games. I won't be against moving down if it's a few spots. Not 15. Little will pan out, but he isn't going to be all world. He's not Fitz or Megatron or even an AJ Green.
Talented, yes. Elite, no.
I have been hoping to move back, but as the draft has gotten closer, I've been on the same line of thinking as this article. Arguably the best RB to come out of the draft since Peterson....do we pass on him to get some extra talent? That may not have the same impact?
Put it this way....if you had the opportunity to take Adrian Peterson, would you pass on him for a decent RB and WR, or take the home run hitter? We need high end talent. And we have obviously tons of picks to get those other guys. We have 13 picks already.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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We have 13 picks already.
Yes, but we don't have 13 quality picks.
Two equally problematic schools of thought: We don't have elite playmakers compared to the rest of the NFL, and we don't have equal talent across the board compared to the rest of the NFL.
In either case, we're going to improve the team.
Now, something else I'd willing to bet my Cobra on: We WILL move around in this draft. Heckert always has, and we have more picks than we can actually use.
It wouldn't surprise me at all to see us drop down early then come back up shortly thereafter.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Sometimes there are offers made, that is hard to refuse...
And that I agree with and where I would trade down.
That SOMETIMES there are offers you can not refuse. I don't move out of the top 10 unless we get another 1st rounder next year, and some higher picks this year that we can bundle together to get a higher level talent if they start falling. But passing up elite talent to get some extra picks later on can only get you so far. We've done it plenty of times recently, and are we any better? We've added talent, but don't have a home run hitter. We don't have that guy that can break the game open with a swing of the bat.
You can land one later, I know that. But it starts getting tougher, and with a little luck, you find that gem. You can't continue to rely on that. Take the guarantee when you got it.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Someone on here said that the proposed trade between the Eagles and Browns is #22 for the Eagles' 2 2nd round picks.
I would do that in a heartbeat. There is a much smaller difference between 22 and 46/51 (whatever the picks are) than 4 and 15.
Heck, maybe we trade down to 6 and pick up yet another 2nd round pick. I don't think that I would want to drop much lower than 6 though. We would be guaranteed to get one of: Kalil, Richardson, Claiborne, or Blackmon.
It is kinda exciting that there is at least one way that we could wind up with 4 2nd round picks. lol
I do want to grab Weeden in the 2nd if he is available. I think that he would upgrade the QB position greatly.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I believe the Browns will draft Weeden as well.
My hope is we get Richardson at #4, trade up in the first to grab Floyd, then somehow land Weeden in the 2nd. That would be a dream draft, IMO.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
I believe the Browns will draft Weeden as well.
My hope is we get Richardson at #4, trade up in the first to grab Floyd, then somehow land Weeden in the 2nd. That would be a dream draft, IMO.
I would be ecstatic.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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By far, the biggest hole on this team is and has been Qb. We will never be a winning program without a quality Qb. Sorry but Colt is not the answer, Tannehill is not the answer and Weeden (who I like best of the 3) is not the answer.
I believe that one of the reasons that we made the trade with Atlanta last year was with the plan of using it if need be to move up for a Qb this year. Unfortunately Barkley, Landry et al stayed in school. The Quality Qb's is this draft are limited to one in my opinion (Luck) 2 in many others. We didn't get one. So we need a plan to get one next year. And we don't necessarily need to trade down from #4. Perhaps we pick at #4 and trade #22 dropping into the 2nd round for a future #1.
In the meantime, we can still get a quality Rb, RT and Wr in this draft. Yes even by trading down into the teens from #4. No reason we can't still build up this team in preparation for the future as well as for this year. We could possibly get Floyd or Wright at Wr, Reiff or Glenn at RT and Martin or Wilson at Rb with our top 3 picks after trading down. Seems like a good talent foundation to me.
To not plan for the future is short sighted. The top teams draft players in anticipation of their current guys retiring or entering free agency. They fill holes before the holes are created. If trading back gets us a premier QB in the next draft then it will be well worth it. If we don't trade back and miss out on a premier Qb next draft then we screwed the pooch yet again.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Quote:
Put it this way....if you had the opportunity to take Adrian Peterson, would you pass on him for a decent RB and WR, or take the home run hitter?
Trent Richardson is not Adrian Peterson.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:
Quote:
Put it this way....if you had the opportunity to take Adrian Peterson, would you pass on him for a decent RB and WR, or take the home run hitter?
Trent Richardson is not Adrian Peterson.
Of course not.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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THE biggest hole on our roster RIGHT NOW is at RT.
No doubt about that...I'm not saying to use the #4 overall at RT...but I'd do that before I take ANY QBs left at our time to pick.
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Legend
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Quote:
Unfortunately Barkley, Landry et al stayed in school. The Quality Qb's is this draft are limited to one in my opinion (Luck) 2 in many others. We didn't get one. So we need a plan to get one next year. And we don't necessarily need to trade down from #4. Perhaps we pick at #4 and trade #22 dropping into the 2nd round for a future #1.
In the meantime, we can still get a quality Rb, RT and Wr in this draft. Yes even by trading down into the teens from #4. No reason we can't still build up this team in preparation for the future as well as for this year. We could possibly get Floyd or Wright at Wr, Reiff or Glenn at RT and Martin or Wilson at Rb with our top 3 picks after trading down. Seems like a good talent foundation to me.
To not plan for the future is short sighted.
jester...when the Browns lost out on RGIII...I floated the idea of the Browns targeting next years draft to land a QB. Why draft an overrated QB this year when the Browns can trade down and accumulate more picks to be used in next years draft?
If a team wants to sell the farm to the Browns for the #4 pick, sell it to them for next years first round draft pick + whatever else we can get to use to move into position to draft one of the elite QBs in next years draft.
This draft can go along way toward filling many of the needs yet to be addressed. Next year, the Browns can target the QB position with picks accumulated from trading down...plus they could use future draft picks if necessary.
Rather than spend valuable draft picks on questionable QB talent in this draft, wait another year to get the QB of the future.
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Quote:
THE biggest hole on our roster RIGHT NOW is at RT.
No doubt about that...I'm not saying to use the #4 overall at RT...but I'd do that before I take ANY QBs left at our time to pick.
I would disagree. If we picked up a good or better than good Qb and paired him with some average middling free agent RT (who are a dime a dozen) we would be much better than if we stayed with a crummy Qb and acquired a premier RT.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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One reason to trade down this year would be that it would be sticking with the plan. After the trade down last year, for all of those picks, if they trade down, a little bit, this year then it sticks with the same philosophy.
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Quote:
...some average middling free agent RT (who are a dime a dozen) we would be much better than if we stayed with a crummy Qb and acquired a premier RT.
We've been saying that since...Kevin Schaffer's good year and Ryan Tucker's good handful-of-games.
Who might that RT be in reality? Because IF he's out there...we should have signed him a long time ago.
Say it slowly...Oniel Cousins, Starting Right Tackle
I don't care who is the QB. Cousins next to Lavauo = disaster.
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One doesn't have to assume that Oniel Cousins is the plan to start at right tackle.
We also don't have to conclude that the ONLY way to avoid having no other option at right tackle than Oniel Cousins is to use a high pick in the college draft to acquire a right tackle.
Right Tackle isn't even the most important position on the LINE.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:
One doesn't have to assume that Oniel Cousins is the plan to start at right tackle.
We also don't have to conclude that the ONLY way to avoid having no other option at right tackle than Oniel Cousins is to use a high pick in the college draft to acquire a right tackle.
Right Tackle isn't even the most important position on the LINE.
Right now...Oniel Cousins is our starting RT...arguably the only RT on the roster. Who else you see on the team who plays RT?
We've seen him play...for us and a division rival. Not good...not even so good as to be called bad.
The viable RT free agents - or should I say agenT - have been signed.
Thinking we will find a starting-caliber RT outside the first 3 rounds is awfully risky...when your RT roster consists of Oniel Cousins and...well...uhhh...I dunno.
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http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings?&start_row=1Using the above updated prospect rankings, I wondered what the Browns could get if they traded down to 15 with Philly and picked up their two 2nd rounders. This is a sample. I went with offensive line in the first round because I think even Obi-Wan Kenobi could run behind this line. 15 David DeCastro OG 22 Jonathan Martin, RT 37 Brandon Weeden, QB (still running the 40  ) 46 Lamar Miller, RB (runs a 4.40 40) 51 Chris Givens, WR (runs a 4.41 40 to stretch the field) OK, this would be your offensive line folks LT Joe Thomas LG Jason Pinkston (reportedly very serious in offseason to get better) C Alex Mack RG David DeCastro RT Jonathan Martin This would be the best offensive line in the whole universe and they would be young and play for many years.
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If we take a G and T with out 2 1st round picks we deserve to suck again next year.
This team needs a QB and play-makers.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
If we take a G and T with out 2 1st round picks we deserve to suck again next year.
This team needs a QB and play-makers.
We already got a bunch of whiny fans. 
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Quote:
If a team wants to sell the farm to the Browns for the #4 pick, sell it to them for next years first round draft pick + whatever else we can get to use to move into position to draft one of the elite QBs in next years draft.
I agree to an extent, but unless you think that team is going to be picking in the top 10 (15?) then I"m not sure it works. Let's say the Browns go 6-10 and we trade to get the 21st pick. Would a #8-10 pick + 21 get you the #1 pick? Doubtful
That being said, I'd definitely consider it depending on the team....But I'd also need a lot this year to pass on Richardson, Claiborne or Blackmon
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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Quote:
If we take a G and T with out 2 1st round picks we deserve to suck again next year.
This team needs a QB and play-makers.
Honestly, it depends in my mind. If the two were Decastro and Glenn I might disagree.....I'd rather take my chances with Richardson/Claiborne and what's left at #22 though
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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Did DeCastro play primarily LG or RG at Stanford?
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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In the grand scheme of things... trading down could be our BEST option.. IF.. and ONLY IF that includes getting a first next year...
Get your talent this year around the QB.. if Colt doesn't work out.. you then have the ammo to move up in next years draft to get your franchise guy..
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Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Me too. If we trade down I want another first.
Getting a franchise QB is essential, but if there aren't any in this draft, going another year with Colt couldn't be that bad. I'd rather stay somewhat higher in the draft, but another 1st rounder so we are in a position to move up again makes sense
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Quote:
Say it slowly...Oniel Cousins, Starting Right Tackle
I don't care who is the QB. Cousins next to Lavauo = disaster.
Say it slowly....Colt McCoy, starting QB
Both were drafted in the 3rd round, both sucked compared to other NFL starters at their position, that makes both a pretty huge need...QB I think is a little more improtant than RT, just a little bit....so that still makes QB "by far" our biggest hole...
Just because you or more people like Colt over Oniel doesn't make him something else...he is the Oniel Cousins of QBs, that's reality
Oh and how often do I have to read this BS theory about "getting our QB in next year's draft"....that was said 1 year ago when we traded down and McCoy DID suck, this "scenario" is here and now...we have the picks, we already traded down and our QB GOT his chance and crapped his pants...we've been there, it's called reality and THIS draft....
but yeah, there's always "next draft" 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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The biggest difference - other than in opinions - is that we can upgrade RT in this draft for our first snap in September.
That cannot be said about the QB position in this draft.
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,519 Likes: 147 |
Quote:
Oh and how often do I have to read this BS theory about "getting our QB in next year's draft"....that was said 1 year ago when we traded down and McCoy DID suck, this "scenario" is here and now...we have the picks, we already traded down and our QB GOT his chance and crapped his pants...we've been there, it's called reality and THIS draft....
but yeah, there's always "next draft"
dj...why would the Browns take a QB in this draft who is not capable of beating out McCoy?...just appease you and the group who believes in wasting picks just to please the critics?
When Barkley and Landry decided to remain in college another year, it reduced the number of "elite" QBs in the draft by 50%. The Browns would very likely be drafting RGIII or Barkley had Barkley came out as expected.
The Browns are just beginning year 3 of a 5 yr rebuilding plan, so why are some acting as if there won't be a year 4 and 5?
Trading down to accumulate more picks was a successful strategy last year...so why wouldn't the Browns use the same strategy in year 3 of the rebuilding process?
Stop focusing on the "now" and try to see the "Big Picture"...
There may be a QB in this draft that Heckert and Holmgren believe will develop into the elite QB they are seeking, but if there isn't, there is nothing stopping the Browns from looking ahead to 2013 to draft their franchise QB.
Trading down, accumulating more picks seems to be the "smart" thing to do, rather than wasting picks on questionable QB talent....ya think?
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
The biggest difference - other than in opinions - is that we can upgrade RT in this draft for our first snap in September.
That cannot be said about the QB position in this draft.
Of course it can...Weeden is 28/29yo and will most probably go earlier than McCoy did...despite being the 4th or maybe 5th QB in a really strong QB class...whereas McCoy fell in a horrible class (Clausen was no2, remember? so much for "waiting for a "stud" in next year's class)...what does that tell ya? Weeden would eat Colt alive in TC...and once a WR catches a ball 20yds downfield you will hear WRs backing Weeden too
Regardless...THIS draft isn't about 2012 anyway...no draft is just for the short term, esp. NOT a QB pick...
You guys really just draft "not to bust"...to be blunt: I consider this a pretty stupid approach...the draft inherently is about risk/reward
"We're building a team, not collecting talent"
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Why the Browns shouldn't Trade
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