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Speaking of dud: I gave Jefferson 2 more games from 2011 (Texas and Okie St.) and he's now OFF my board, lol Whoever has this dude among his top 100 is clueless or this class is really, really bad. He got owned by Weeden/Blackmon all game (exactly ONE good coverage breakup) and I'm not sure he managed to tackle Randle once...and he tried multiple times, lol Randle's 37yd TD run was all on him taking a horrible path to the LOS. If you need a S that you have to teach tackling technique and wait 3-4 years to "maybe" develop coverage feel, then he's your man  Vaccaro: I can see why he's up there on boards. He has the best mix of physicality/coverage instincts and man coverage play, he's very versatile. He's a bit over-aggressive and takes poor angles vs the run, but he flashes and there's def something to work with. That all said, I'm not sure I would draft him in the 1st, especially if I can draft Swearinger in rounds 3/4
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Knowing me, I'll probably make a new one of these before the draft comes up (after'the combine and watching more stuff on the internet {yay!})
Though I have to say, I don't feel as strongly about my opinions this year as I did last year.
Won't keep me from telling people "I'm right" semi-anonymously over the internet, though! 
Here's my top 6 for the Browns as of now: (might change by tomorrow, or this evening)
1. CB - Dee Milliner, Alabama
only because I like him so much better than the corners likely to be available at 68 and hope a good rusher will be there
2. 3-4 OLB - Damontre Moore, Texas A&M
I think he's a more impactful player than Milliner, but maximizing our resources to me says take the stud CB now and hope for Jeªkins/Carradine at 68.
3. 3-4 DE - Star Lotuleili, Utah
Stud player at (IMO) a position of need. I don't think my #2 or #3 options have a real shot of making it to our pick, though.
4. 3-4 OLB - Jarvis Jones, Georgia
Guys with stenosis don't have a good track record in the NFL, and his size (242#) is very atypical of successful 3-4 OLBs. Still his production is very, very tough for me to ignore over the past 2 years.
5. OG - Chance Warmack, Alabama
I was one of the loudest opponents of taking Decastro last year, but that was more because I didn't think he was that good than about OG value. I think Warmack is really good and would make Richardson much better.
6. FS - Matt Elam, Florida (!)   (!)
Here's a little guy who can hit! And cover. I was watching the Louisville v. Florida game again last night and Elam looked like the only guy from Florida that came to play.
I like the list except, Lotuleili. Not that he isn't a great player....I just don't think we need him at this point.
Elam, only in a trade down. You are right, he was the only guy who showed up to play against a inferior Louisville.
All the others....I'd take them at #6 and never look back.
Warmack might be a bit of a reach in conventional wisdom, but to me he is about as solid a Pro-Bowl/HOF type pick as can be made in this draft.
You draft a 10 time Pro-Bowl/HOF candidate type player, only simpleton's can complain.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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What combination is better to fill needs at G and pass rusher: a) Moore + Warford...top 3 pass rusher and top 5 G b) Warmack + one of J.Simon/C.Thomas/J.Collins....no1 G and 10th pass rusher value, value, value...
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I haven't seen anyone suggest Warmack over Moore. Is that what you were suggesting, Peen?
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I haven't seen anyone suggest Warmack over Moore. Is that what you were suggesting, Peen?
Not at all. Moore is my guy, though unless a qb goes early, I don't see him there at #6. I am simply saying you can throw out the conventional wisdom about finding guards later in the draft when you are looking at Warmack. He might be the safest, stud pick in the draft. Unless the guy gets hurt or he meets a yogi who convinces him meditation and writing poetry the rest of his life is his true calling, he is a 10 time pro-bowl player.
Those are hard to pass.
A side note: As these guys get put through the ringer, in the end, Warmack might end up being my pick, but for now, the overwhelming need for a 3-4 edge player along with legit talent at that position, matching the draft position leads me to believe we go with the rusher....I am also still keen on corners. I haven't ruled out Milner.
One time some years back I was BSing with my son and he said he would be good with just fixing a position. Just draft nothing but Oline, or backer, or whatever. It made some sense to me. We always swiss cheese our way through drafts but never seem to fix anything. Find the position in the draft that offers the deepest group of prospects, and draft that position if it matches a need.
I would like to fix punter. I'd figure a way to get back in to the mid 3rd round and take Wing. He will be punting 17 years from now.
Now I am just rambling, so I won't.
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We could drop down and get Warmack. I wouldn't be upset with that, not after watching an otherwise good OL fail to run block, and knowing that while we're set at T and C, we have three marginal guards competing for two spots. San Fran built a helluva offensive line and it served them pretty well.
The idea that the draft is deep in DE/OLBs might mean we can just wait, although not having a second-rounder is tough. And does anyone think Skrine or Wade can make a big step this year and become a solid starter at CB? I know there's a lotta hate for Buster, but he's fast enough and strong enough, has a great attitude and he's taken some knocks. Maybe the light switch goes on?
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Maybe the switch goes on for Skrine, but I think it is already on. Corner is one of those positions where you really don't improve a whole lot after you enter the league. Either you can play the position or you can't. It's why corners who can play are drafted early and often.
It is also a fairly easy and straightforward position to grade, so it isn't often some guy falls through the cracks to emerge from the later rounds.
As for Warmack, I am not sure we could drop too far down and still get him. I don't think he lasts until mid round.
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I like Buster a lot, but we've got to have at least one corner who goes 6'1"ish. That's my opinion, anyways. Watching Buster Skrine trying to cover Boldin or Torrey Smith is painful.
I love how tough and quick he is, but at his height he has to play perfectly to match up with guys like that, and that's setting him up to fail.
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As for Warmack, I am not sure we could drop too far down and still get him. I don't think he lasts until mid round.
With (7) Arizona's line in shambles, and (8) Buffalo, (9) the Jets, and (11) San Diego all set to lose a starting OG in free agency, we can't trade down if we're targeting Warmack. Even (10) Tennessee has a large need at OG. I say stick to whatever board we make and take the best player. Could be Warmack.
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Dez Bryant looked like the eight grader who plays in the backyard game with the fourth graders when he was being covered by Buster.
There are times when it's just painful to watch Skrine play. Like he forgets how to play CB completely. I think it's probably a shattered confidence mid-game thing with him.
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I do want to say also that I follow what clevesteve, django and mourgym have to say as it relates to the draft as well as some others....the quality of draft talk here is pretty darn good...and that's probably why I wish this forum was up year round!
Arghhhhh!
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As for Warmack, I am not sure we could drop too far down and still get him. I don't think he lasts until mid round.
With (7) Arizona's line in shambles, and (8) Buffalo, (9) the Jets, and (11) San Diego all set to lose a starting OG in free agency, we can't trade down if we're targeting Warmack. Even (10) Tennessee has a large need at OG. I say stick to whatever board we make and take the best player. Could be Warmack.
Always a good policy unless you see guys you like later in the round or like some 2nd round players and we seek to regain a 2nd rounder.
As for Warmack, you won't hear me complain if we take him at #6. We may have bigger needs, mostly at corner and backer, but it is hard to complain about a once every 10 year player who is as sure a pro bowl bound player in this draft.
Solid players. This league is all about solid players. Teams can't dictate who is going to be there when you draft.
I'd rather take a pro-bowl guard over a good player at another position any day. You can't always build a team in the order you want. You have to go with what is available, thus, I have always been a best player available guy....at least where we stand.
Sure, once you are a player away and have a good team, lean towards needs. Might as well. No need creating a competition at a position of strength.
We are still at a point with this team where needs isn't the predominating factor minus maybe 3-4 positions.
We don't need a LT, so we don't need to create a competition there. Haden is in the same boat, but he is only one of two. Richardson might be there, maybe a few others.....you get my point.
JMO
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You know who else was ProBowl bound or a "sure 10year starter"? Aaron Curry, AJ Hawk, Gallery, Ty Jackson, G.Dorsey, DeCastro, Carimi etc etc That said Warmack is a MUCH better player than DeCastro and I too think he'll be at least a good G, if not much more, but the value just isn't there for the position. Last offseason 2 of the best Gs in the game were let go in Nicks and Grubbs...the position just isn't worth it to invest so high. If we take Warmack, we will be left scrmbling for pass rushers in rounds 3 to 5 and that's a stupid thing to do...it would be the 2009 draft all over again. Speaking of Warmack, I watched the BCS vs LSU and Logan vs Warmack was a great battle. I'm not sure he can play 3-4 DE, but I'd love to add Logan...great mix of athleticism, ability and hustle With that, my top 3 for our pick, as of now, are: Moore, Ansah, Milliner...it'd be a tough call between Ansah and Milliner for me. I'd love a tradedown and then get Ansah, but I'm not sure we would even get him at 11 Ansah is a big man that can run and lines up all over the front 7, exactly what Horton wants and he's ALL hustle, LOVE how he plays and he has so much upside left it's ridiculous
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I understand the appeal of having the worlds finest offensive line.
But Lauvao, Pinkson, and Greco is a pretty solid group.
Guard isn't really a top priority for us at all.
It is sort of bizarre but our offense is pretty much set at this point. Maybe a new TE. Maybe an elite QB if we can find one somewhere (next season most likely)
What we need is a pass rush and a free safety. Ideally a #2 corner would be a luxury and we need to stock up at LB.
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I understand the conventional wisdom. Over the years i have pimped exactly 3 guards. Hutcheson, Andrews, and now Warmack. I wouldn't do it unless I felt he was worth the pick. We can go after guys like Mingo, and maybe he will turn in to a great player. My thinking is he ends up more like Cam Wimbly. That isn't the value i am looking for at #6. Like I said, Moore and Millner would have to be off the board before I went Warmack. It's my opinion and I am sticking to it...at least until next week where things might change my opinion. 
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I will say that if Jarvis Jones checks out health wise....he does have a spinal issue, I would be good with that pick before Warmack.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
I will say that if Jarvis Jones checks out health wise....he does have a spinal issue, I would be good with that pick before Warmack.
I agree. I'd take him before DaMontre Moore if it wasn't for the spine issue. Hopefully, our medical staff can determine whether or not it will truly affect his professional play.
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Quote:
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I will say that if Jarvis Jones checks out health wise....he does have a spinal issue, I would be good with that pick before Warmack.
I agree. I'd take him before DaMontre Moore if it wasn't for the spine issue. Hopefully, our medical staff can determine whether or not it will truly affect his professional play.
No way...I was completely turned off by Jones' tape vs Bama, his game got worse with every Qtr, see here: http://www.youtube.com/v/nqczNIJJ2O4
If you watch tape on Moore or even Okafor, they're much better overall football players. Mingo and Jones are 1 trick speed ponies...and that's not even taking into account his medical and work ethic red flags. I'd stay the hell away at 6
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Peen, I tend to agree with you.. would you rather take a shot on a guy you are less sure is going to be great just because he plays a sexier position or do you want the guy that is more likely to play in 6 pro-bowls at the non-sexy position... Interesting stat, on the AFC pro-bowl team OL this year, you had: At OT Joe Thomas drafted #6 overall D'Brick Ferguson - 4 Ryan Clady - 12 Jake Long - 1 At OG Ben Grubbs - 29 Marshal Yanda - 86 Logan Mankins - 32 Brandon Moore - UDFA Brian Waters - UDFA At C Nick Mangold - 29 Chris Myers - 200 Maurkice Pouncey - 18 So it sure seems like pro-bowl guards come from anywhere.. with that said, 2 of the guards are Ravens and 2 are Patriots.... oddly enough the 2 teams that played in the AFC Championship game.... and they have the #1 and #4 scoring offenses in the AFC with the #4 scoring offense winning the Super Bowl... so maybe there is a link between these non-sexy guards and offensive success... 
yebat' Putin
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well, he did have 2 sacks in the game against Bama. he also re-routed Lacy on a bunch of his runs and held the edge pretty well there also. I may be biased because I watched the UGa v. Florida game. It was the most impressive, dominant performance that I saw a defensive player have this entire season (including Teo's early season games). I don't know though, he was awfully productive and good anytime I saw him and everything I have read seems to back it up too. I'd like to rewatch the SEC-Champ though (i think they replay it on one of the ESPN-alternate stations, I'll look for it) Quote:
A 6-3, 241-pound native of Columbus, Ga., Jones played in 26 games over his two seasons with Georgia, starting all of them. He finished his career with 28 sacks in that span (1.08/game), which is tied for third in school history. Jones also recorded 44 tackles for loss of 235 yards, 155 total tackles, nine forced fumbles and an interception during his time as a Bulldog.
Jones, a 2012 consensus First Team All-American, finished this season leading the nation in sacks (14.5 for loss of 103 yards) and tackles for loss (24.5 for loss of 132 yards) and forced fumbles (seven). He was third on the Bulldogs with 85 stops and added an interception and two fumble recoveries in 12 games played this season (Jones was injured for two of Georgia's 14 games).
http://www.georgiadogs.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/010413aaa.html
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Todd McShay has us taking Mingo at #6. With Moore still available. And he doesn't have Moore going until pick 13.
Mel Kiper has us taking Werner. Who probably can only play in a 4-3. And we are switching to a 3-4.
Why are these guys employed?
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Todd McShay has us taking Mingo at #6. With Moore still available. And he doesn't have Moore going until pick 13.
Mel Kiper has us taking Werner. Who probably can only play in a 4-3. And we are switching to a 3-4.
Why are these guys employed?
I think most ESPN guys make assumptions about the Browns, because I don't think they really watch any more then a few highlight packages.
I mean I get it, we're not good, and we're not in a big giant market, so we will probably get the least amount of attention, but I have heard some really stupid stuff out of their mouth that even the most casual of Browns fans would know better.
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I think they are bad at their job (McShay and Kiper).
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I will say that if Jarvis Jones checks out health wise....he does have a spinal issue, I would be good with that pick before Warmack.
I agree. I'd take him before DaMontre Moore if it wasn't for the spine issue.
Nooooo way I'd do that...
What about tight ends outside of the first? Seems like I read conflicting reports on them. Thoughts...?
That Escobar kid seems to float back & forth between the 2nd & 3rd...
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Quote:
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I will say that if Jarvis Jones checks out health wise....he does have a spinal issue, I would be good with that pick before Warmack.
I agree. I'd take him before DaMontre Moore if it wasn't for the spine issue. Hopefully, our medical staff can determine whether or not it will truly affect his professional play.
No way...I was completely turned off by Jones' tape vs Bama, his game got worse with every Qtr, see here: http://www.youtube.com/v/nqczNIJJ2O4
If you watch tape on Moore or even Okafor, they're much better overall football players. Mingo and Jones are 1 trick speed ponies...and that's not even taking into account his medical and work ethic red flags. I'd stay the hell away at 6
I don't watch tapes. I watch games. My feeling is it is kind of goofy, even slightly creepy some sit around and watch tapes to come up with this or that opinion.
Even if you know what you are looking for.....information overload. It isn't a science, it's art, and a person doesn't need extra schooling to know a good painting from a bad painting.
It may help with a 6th rounder in some cases, but I don't really care about a 6th rounder. I don't care if you study it from now until high heaven or simply throw a dart at a name, you will end up about the same.
Hit your first 3 picks and you will have a winner, and it doesn't take a genius to make the first 3 picks.
Again, JMO, but I stick by it.
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Peen, interested in your take on Jarvis Jones since he seemed to have his best games against your Gators.
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Peen, interested in your take on Jarvis Jones since he seemed to have his best games against your Gators.
I think he is a decent player. I worry about issues.
To my core, I'd take Warmack over him as I would know I was getting a stud. Jones is a bit of a risk IMO.
I don't care if he is a guard. He is big enough and nimble enough to make people run wide in the pass game...which at the guard position is good, and strong enough he can move anybody in front of him in the run game.
There is nothing not to like other than experts saying it isn't good value......screw that is my opinion. Ten on the stud-o-meter is good no matter the position.
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Warmack could help our defense as much as Moore or Jones. Last year, our running game really couldn't get going, and the guards were to blame. If you can run the ball, you can control the clock and suddenly your defense looks pretty good. Not to mention, a healthy Richardson running behind a top 5 OL makes it easier for Weeden or whomever ends up taking snaps. And finally, we used a top pick on TR, who will be lucky to have six good years in the NFL. A guard like Warmack can have 15.
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My Big Board for #6
Dion Jordan
2. Dion Jordan
3. Moore
4. Dion Jordan
5. Warnack
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So you like Dion Jordan? Maybe I watched the wrong games, but I wasn't impressed by his play, it was "meh" across the board for me. Having him over Moore is a first on here. Overall Moore seems to be the consensus pick of this board, and many other Brownsfans. When was the last time the fanbase had such a consensus? Joe Thomas If Moore is available at 6 and the FO "consenus" doesn't pick him, then we officially know we have "outsmarters" running the show.
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Moore's lack of bend around the edge scares me. I asked DeepThreat and his answer is about spot on, "I don't see a dynamic pass-rusher. Lacks great burst and athleticism. High effort guy who plays with some power." - on Moore.
Sobo from OBR agrees.
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how is Dion Jordan's shoulder? he didn't register a sack after he tweaked it and there were rumblings about possible surgery.
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Moore's lack of bend around the edge scares me. I asked DeepThreat and his answer is about spot on, "I don't see a dynamic pass-rusher. Lacks great burst and athleticism. High effort guy who plays with some power." - on Moore.
Sobo from OBR agrees.
Good for them. I want 3down football players and Moore is one. If you think football is a sport where track guys run around blocks on the NFL level, then think twice...or just go ahead and draft 3rd down specialists like J.Jones or Mingo....I mean, these dudes were toast at the College level as soon as someone got a hand on them. It always looks cooler or flashier when one of those guys beats you every 30th play with speed while that OL was caught napping or someone missed an assignment...in the NFL you need to be more than that. Jones is especially concerning to me since I see some lack of hustle in his play, Mingo tries but just is too light to defeat blocks.
It's the old speed vs power debate. Guys like Moore, Montgomery or Okafor are atheletic enough to beat OL, especially if lined up at OLB. The pass rushers that tend to bust have ALWAYS been speed-only rushers.
Moore is the ultimate team player, all hustle, very intelligent, anticipating positioning. I want my front 7 players to be like that, not pass rush "stat whores", who make that splash sack but then get run over on 3rd&short or get blocked out of the way for a huge run (happened a lot to J.Jones vs Bama).
There's enough data work out there that pretty much says that there's no significant difference between the AVG numbers of speed/athleticism at the combine and those of who turn out to be regular NFL starters. At best it is an issue if your at the lower end. What does that tell us? That you still need to be an all around football player and not an elite athlete to make it in the NFL.
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Freeney, Dumerville and others disagree.
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Quote:
Freeney, Dumerville and others disagree.
They also played on Ds that were gashed by the run year in and year out.
That said, those guys are speed rushers AND high motor guys, roughly comparable in style to Mingo. I don't see that at all with J.Jones.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Dynamism.
That's the word for me when considering which player to pick at 6.
If it's me run support is well down the list as to what's important.
I'm looking at getting the guy who can get to the QB the best.
We need strip sacks, pressure, turnovers...
Whoever can get that done the best has my seal of approval.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
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j/c...
I really hope Spytek sits down with Ray Horton to talk about Devin Taylor (and I think it was you that's with me on this, right Hel?). This guy is the definition of a "big guy who can run." He's got huge hands and can swat at the QB and has chase speed to run down plays from the weak side. I bet he runs a sub-4.65 40 at the combine. At his body type (I think he's 6'7" 275#) he's not a clear fit anywhere in a traditional 3-4, but this guy can really get to the QB and chase down runners. It's at least worth going over with him. He's got a unique set of capabilities.
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Hall of Famer
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I'm not impressed with Taylor. He has terrible (non)use of hands, he does pretty much nothing with them. He's on his butt A LOT, doesn't look very coordinated or he's just what I call "leverage dumb". He looks straight-linish/one speed with little flexibility.
I'm not saying he's terrible, but for a guy who had all those opportunities playing at S.Carolina he doesn't look better now than he did as a Sophomore, a case could be made that he's worse today...and that's an alarming trend.
To me he is Margus Hunt after the hype bubble bursted....all ceiling, projection, but little tape to back it up.
I'd stay away from both
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Yep that was me.
I just thought it was strange that a guy with his physical gifts isn't higher up. And he does pop off the screen from time to time. God doesn't make many of em like that.
He's the C student with 95th percentile SAT.
If our coaches think they can do something with him and bring out his full potential I'm all for it.
Didn't Calais Campbell go in the third or so?
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