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are we really degraded to the point where people are arguing that Jack Tatum wasn't a dirty player?
No, just mac.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
are we really degraded to the point where people are arguing that Jack Tatum wasn't a dirty player?
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are we really degraded to the point where people are arguing that Jack Tatum wasn't a dirty player?
nolo and osg...was Dick Butkus a dirty player?
Was Ray Nitschke a dirty player?
I do not consider Jack Tatum a dirty player, but a player who would and could knock the dog crap out of anyone who ventured into his area. Tatum had the physical tools combined with speed and played at a position (safety) that allowed him the opportunity to display his ability.
Nolo n Osg... you two may have a hard time believing this, but Jack Tatum played his position just as his coaches in college and the pros wanted him to play his position. Now keep in mind, Tatum played 10 seasons in the NFL and he likely had some hits that might have been flagged...that does not mean Tatum was a dirty player.
I will point out again, the hit on Stingley was not flagged and if anyone looks at the video of the hit, you clearly see Tatum leading with his shoulder. Tatum did not intend to paralyze Stingley and that hit does not define Tatum as a dirty player because the hit was not a dirty hit...just a hard hit from a defensive player. Tatum was doing what he is taught to do by his coaches...to defend his area of the football field.
Those who do not understand the game from a defensive players point of view or those who have little or no experience playing the game, might see the Tatum/Stingley play as a dirty play but they do so based on a "fans" perspective of how the fan believes the game should be played.
Some fans are living in a fantasy world that is not connected to the real football world, from a player and coaches point of view. Most fans lack the knowledge and experience that can only be attained by actually playing the game.
I really enjoyed Pitt's post above about his personal experience playing the game...
....."The job of a defensive player IMO, is to hit your oponent as hard as you can. To play with intensity and strike fear into your oponent.".....
In football, that is called "a LBers mentality" and coaches love it and do their best to teach it, starting in HS.
I also played LB and I grew up idolizing guys like Butkus and Nitschke, two of the meanest football players to play the game...two of the all time greatest to play the game...
...I wonder if OSG and NOLO would call Butkus and Nitschke dirty players too?
GM strong...
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I'm glad you continue to ignore everything everyone else is saying, and spew the same thoughts over and over...
Makes for a great discussion..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I'm glad you continue to ignore everything everyone else is saying, and spew the same thoughts over and over...
Makes for a great discussion..
No less than you guys seem to do.
You don't think that coaches tell defensive players to hit as hard as they can? If you don't, then you're wrong. You don't think defensive coaches give you an extra pat on the back for knocking the oponents starting QB or RB out of the game?
What you're told are things like, "Now that's how to hit!" "Now that was a text book hit right there!"
Just look at what they call "The proper way to tackle, AKA a text book tackle".
You hit them in the numbers with your shoulder, wrap up their legs and drive them to the turf, with the entire weight and force of your body landing on top of them.
And on this very message board and many others I hear people complain about players with poor tackling technique, arm tackles and the fact that players are not taught or do not use this technique.
Point being, yes what the Saints did by offering incentives is against the rules. In saying that, that in and of itself "proves" that I am not ignoring the points made by your side of the discussion.
But what the NFL and most of the media seems to continue to "suggest" is that this somehow has a direct impact on the Saints "playing dirty". They try to villify this incident and promote the idea that the two are directly connected.
Yet what is being ignored and I feel is very pertinant in showing this entire incident is being exploited to an extreme that is far from the truth is based on the evidence.
Firstly, to guys making hundreds of thousands and even millions of dollars annually, 5k or 10k is chump change. When the league hands out fines for illegal plays of this low of a magnitude, even the fans get outraged because these fines have no impact upon the actual players. Why? Because they make so much money that 5 or 10 thousand dollars is in many cases not even half a days salary.
Yet when the Saints offer it up, this is somehow a huge incentive? I call BS! If it is very little when you talk about fining a player, then it is also very little in regards to any incentive.
Secondly, to show that it really was of little to no impact on how their players performed and that it had no impact on whether their players actually played dirty.................
I have shown that in both categories, both roughing the passer and illegal hits, the Saints ranked well below average in the NFL in both categories. From 2009 until the end of last season, the Saints declined in ranking both of these categories.
Therefore the evidence indicates that if anything the "incentive or bounty" had no direct impact on the part of the Saints playing dirty and in fact the Saints played with less illegal hits and penalties in each year after these incentives were offered.
Those are the facts.
Co¿sidering all of the evidence as it pertains to how these incentives actually effected the penalties and fines the Saints recieved, it shows that the incentives had zero impact on dirty huts, cheap shots or penalties by the Saints players.
So was what the Saints did against the rules? Yes it was.
Are things being blown out of proportion in regards to the actual impact these incentives created? Yes the are.
Did Goodell go overboard considering there is no evidence, in fact evidence of the contrary that this "program" had no impact of illegal conduct on the field of play?
Is the media using one or two incidents on the field of play as an example of what these incentives caused when you can show the exact same type of plays by every team in the NFL? Is the media or the NFL pointing out where the Saints rate in such plays?
What people are ignoring is that the Saints play far cleaner than 20+ other teams in the NFL.
The NFL and the media are sensationalzing this entire matter. They are blowing it out of proportion as to the cause and effect. They have basicly signed a death penalty on a team in an incident that did not have any direct impact on the field. And the stats point that out to a very obvious degree.
So I don't think anyone is ignoring the fact that what the Saints did was against the rules. What I think people are ignoring is that with a huge lawsuit hitting the NFL on the concussion issue, the NFL and the medai are trying to shift the blame towards the coaches and the players by taking something that the statistics point out have no bearing on the field to help absolve the NFL in an upcoming lawsuit.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I'm glad you continue to ignore everything everyone else is saying, and spew the same thoughts over and over...
Makes for a great discussion..
No less than you guys seem to do.
You don't think that coaches tell defensive players to hit as hard as they can?
I didn't read passed that, because right off the bat you've already missed the point.
And that's my point, it's not about the hits, and to a point it's not even about the intent of those hits.
But to a point it is.
There are reports (and just rewatch the game) that during the NFC title game, the Saints players were hitting Favre more than usual..
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“Now, in that game there were some plays that, I don’t want to say were odd, but I’d throw the ball and whack, on every play. Hand it off, whack. Over and over. Some were so blatant. I hand the ball to Percy Harvin early and got drilled right in the chin. They flagged that one at least. I’ve always been friends with Darren Sharper, and he came in a couple times and popped me hard. I remember saying, ‘What THE hell you doing, Sharp?’ I felt there should have been more calls against the Saints. I thought some of their guys should have been fined more.”
PFT
Even after running plays
That's crossing a line. You want to sack the QB when he has the ball? Or hit him when he's running with it? Or maybe even just as he's releasing it...Fine.
But if you are going to make a constant effort, to hit a guy no matter what, because you'll get some money for it if he leaves the game? You've crossed a line.
If you guys can't see that. Then I don't know what to tell you.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Of course you didn't read past that. Because there's no logical explanation for the questions I posed beyond that. I guess that means you refuse to answer any points made by me and must have missed where I said that the Saints were in violation of the rules and should be penalized. You claim everyone misses your points on one hand then refuse to even address theirs on the other. You ignore that the the Saints have actually had less and less illegal contact and roughing the passer violations in 2010 than they did in 2009. You ignore that they continuede that trend and ranked even lower in the league in such calls in 2011. If the bounty program was intended to make the Saints play meaner and dirtier. stats show it had the reverse effect. You ignore that this vicious violation has caused the Saints to dive to the 28th ranked team in the league in such violations. That's okay, you ignore that. I doubt a judge will when they get their day in court. If the NFL could show a direct link between increased violations and the bounty program, they could vindicate themselves in regards to such stiff penalties. But the evidence points to the opposite. But let's just ignore the evidence and blame others for that. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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If the bounty program was intended to make the Saints play meaner and dirtier. stats show it had the reverse effect.
Nobody is talking, or has been talking, about DIRTY hits.
Why you keep bringing that, and those stats up, when no one is talking about them, besides you, I don't know.
It's not about the hits.
It's not about the hits.
Oh and by the way.
It's not about the hits.
You claim that you think they should be penalized, but then basically say they did nothing wrong, because they haven't been flagged more...
Oh wait, I forgot to put the guy at the end, which apparently makes someones points more valid...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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In 2010 the Saints ranked 24th in uncessary roughness penalties. 8th in roughing the passer. Persoal fouls, only 1. Defensive fines levied..... 40k, ranked 12th
In 2011 the Saints ranked 20th in unnecassary roughness penalties. They ranked 28th in roughing the passer. They ranked 10th in personal fouls with a grand total of 2.
http://www.canalstreetchronicles.com/2012/3/12/2862105/saints-defensive-penalty-review
You use a players opinion while I use statistical data.
The Saints play much cleaner than many other teams in the league and have done so in each of the past two seasons than they did in 2009.
Yes the Saints were wrong for having an incentive, but they obviously failed miserably in it having any impact on the field of play.
The punishment simply outweighs the crime by a country mile and the evidence points that out. But that's right, you won't read it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I'm glad you continue to ignore everything everyone else is saying, and spew the same thoughts over and over...
Makes for a great discussion..
osg...I'm not ignoring anything you say...
I sure as hell don't agree with you...and why should I?
I just believe you're speaking from the point of view of those fans who now believe football players should play nicer now that you know the Saint's defensive coach had an incentive program to get the maximum effort from his players.
Fact is, these incentive programs such as the Saints had, have existed for decades.
It has also been pointed out that in some form, extra incentive is offered at the college level and the high school level.
OSG...you have never played football, have you?
GM strong...
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Sorry man, you try to hurt people, you are a dirty player.
The object is to tackle players, not hurt them. Jack Tatum was a dirty player. He was a classic cheap shot artist.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I didn't read passed that, because right off the bat you've already missed the point.
And that's my point, it's not about the hits, and to a point it's not even about the intent of those hits.
But to a point it is.
There are reports (and just rewatch the game) that during the NFC title game, the Saints players were hitting Favre more than usual..
osg...so the Saints players were hitting Favre more than usual...
Might come as a surprise to you, but some games are more meaningful than others and while we would like to believe every player gives everything he has in every game...IT'S JUST NOT TRUE.
Big games, such as the game the Saints played against the Vikings...I would expect players to dig a little deeper and play that game with a little more intensity than a regular season game.
It was the NFC title game to see who is going to the Super Bowl...and the Saints had never been there.
Surely you can understand the meaning of this game from the point of view of the Saints players??...then again, maybe you cant.
Last edited by mac; 08/12/12 06:35 PM.
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Sorry man, you try to hurt people, you are a dirty player.
The object is to tackle players, not hurt them. Jack Tatum was a dirty player. He was a classic cheap shot artist.
peen...you have the right to be wrong...and you are.
Tatum's professional accomplishments...
3× Pro Bowl selection (1973, 1974, 1975)
2× Second-team All-Pro selection (1974, 1977)
5× All-AFC selection (1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)
1973 Football Digest NFL Defensive Back of the Year
Super Bowl XI champion
Sorry Peen, but it is your opinion against everyone that voted for Tatum for the honors above.
If you are a "dirty player", they do not vote these kind of honor to you.
Obviously you are out of step with those who vote for Tatum...
...you the Gator fan.
Last edited by mac; 08/12/12 06:41 PM.
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Doesn't matter Mac, he was a dirty player.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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You use a players opinion while I use statistical data.
The same data you've used over and over, which has nothing to do with the fact that the Saints paid people extra money TO INJURE PEOPLE.
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the Saint's defensive coach had an incentive program to get the maximum effort from his players.
No, he had an incentive program that if Brett Favre, or Alex Smith, or Michael Crabtree etc, did not finish a game, they would get money...
That's different.
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OSG...you have never played football, have you?
Because someone thinks purposley injuring people is wrong, it means they have never played football? What backward thinking is that?
I played HS Footbal, 7th-9th grade, 9th grade there were only 3 people that went out, so they put us on the varsity team. I was 5'6, 160 pounds, on the Varsity team. I was literally a tackling dummy, never saw the field during a game.
But I loved every second of it.
However, at no point, did anyone ever talk about purposley trying to make it so someone didn't finish a game. And If they had? As a 14/15 year old? I probably would of been all for it.
Shows you what kind of mentality the players have.
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I would expect players to dig a little deeper and play that game with a little more intensity than a regular season game.
So it's OK to lay out the QB even after he's taken himself out of the (running) play? Apparnelty not, because they got flagged for it.
Here's the thing, Pit, you've stated to a point that you think the Saints players SHOULD of been penalized for what they did, so I don't even know what your argument is? Did Goodell go "too far"? Who knows? If Vilma wasn't on his last legs and trying to get his last payday, maybe he wouldn't be fighting as hard? Clearly, this has always been about money to the players (IMO)
And mac? I don't know what to tell you, the game has changed, you can sit there and tell (false) stories about Tatum. He's beyond my years.
I hate Ray Lewis. But to me, Ray Lewis isn't a dirty player. He may be a horrible person (IMO)
But last year he put a hit on Dustin Keller on a MNF(?) against the Jets, laid it to him, legal hit. Do I think Lewis was TRYING TO INJURE Keller? No.
And until you get the difference, your arguments will continue to be pointless.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Doesn't matter Mac, he was a dirty player.
Peen...the opinions of everyone who voted honors for Tatum (11 seperate awards) do not matter?...so says the Florida Gators fan.
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Then why Peen, if in fact Saints players were paid to be "cheap shot artists", did they actually drop lower in penalties associated with that over the past two years? Quote:
The Saints have been accused more than once of being a dirty team in the wake of the Bountygate scandal, whether by fans of opposing teams or the actual media. Of course, I don't agree with them. The problem is that the media has focused primarily on the bounty aspect, which constitutes such a small portion of the pay-for-performance system that Gregg Williams instituted while with the Saints, and less on the payments for other big plays like fumbles, interceptions sacks etc. But I wanted to make sure the stats backed me up, since we already know that "seldom did a Saints-inflicted injury force an opponent to leave the field."
Please note, these stats are for the regular season only. For NFL rankings, the higher number is better in all cases. Here's what I found...
2009
Unnecessary Roughness - 3 penalties (3 enforced), 47 yards.
NFL Rank - 3rd
Roughing the Passer - 2 penalties (2 enforced), 30 yards.
NFL Rank - 7th
Personal Foul - 6 penalties (6 enforced), 61 yards.
NFL Rank - 20th
Defensive Fines Levied - $10,000 (1)
NFL Rank - 6th
2010
Unnecessary Roughness - 9 penalties (8 enforced), 92 yards.
NFL Rank - 24th
Roughing the Passer - 3 penalties (2 enforced), 9 yards.
NFL Rank - 8th
Personal Foul - 1 penalty (1 enforced), 15 yards.
NFL Rank - 1st
Defensive Fines Levied - $40,000 (3)
NFL Rank - 12th
2011
Unnecessary Roughness - 9 penalties (8 enforced), 99 yards.
NFL Rank - 20th
Roughing the Passer - 7 penalties (7 enforced), 85 yards.
NFL Rank - 28th
Personal Foul - 2 penalties (2 enforced), 30 yards.
NFL Rank - 10th
http://www.canalstreetchronicles.com/2012/3/12/2862105/saints-defensive-penalty-review
I do freely admit that an incentive that pays for people being carted off is wrong. That's not an issue with me.
But the facts clearly dictate that these incentives played very little into anything associated with the Saints "playing dirtier".
I don't see how a team can rank lower and lower each year in dirty plays then all of a sudden everyone conclude this program really had any real bearing on the field of play.
That's my stance on the issue. Planning a robbery doesn't carry the same penalty as executing a robbery.
The Saints set up an illegal incentive program, but stats show that these incentives weren't executed on the field in comparison to the NFL overall.
My points are far more that the punishment does not fit the crime and that with little to no subatnce that indicates this program had any real impact on the field of play, the whole thing is being totally blown out of proportion.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Doesn't matter Mac, he was a dirty player.
Peen...the opinions of everyone who voted honors for Tatum (11 seperate awards) do not matter?...so says the Florida Gators fan.
Help me out here - what does someone being a fan of the gators have to do with this discussion???  I'm not calling you stupid, but perhaps you just have bad luck when it comes to thinking?
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Doesn't matter Mac, he was a dirty player.
Peen...the opinions of everyone who voted honors for Tatum (11 seperate awards) do not matter?...so says the Florida Gators fan.
I don't understand the Gator comment?
There is no right or wrong here. There are a lot of people who think he was a dirty player.
I am not questioning he was a good player. I just don't respect players who tried to hurt other players. Dick Butkus was a great player, but I don't respect him either.
The difference between them and Conrad Dobler is they were good enough to make the HOF....that doesn't change the fact they were dirty players.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Pit, I don't think the number of flagged plays has anything to do with it.
A dirty play doesn't have to be a punch to the face or some other flagrant incident.
A good example would be the play with Sapp and the GB O-lineman. He didn't have to block the guy that way. A simple shove to the pads would have taken him out of the play.
It was a legal play that was totally unnecessary. People around here have blasted Heinz Ward for years for being a cheap shot artist.
Any punk can blindside anybody.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Here's the thing, Pit, you've stated to a point that you think the Saints players SHOULD of been penalized for what they did, so I don't even know what your argument is? Did Goodell go "too far"? Who knows? If Vilma wasn't on his last legs and trying to get his last payday, maybe he wouldn't be fighting as hard? Clearly, this has always been about money to the players (IMO)
Actually I didn't state it "to a point". I stated It was wrong and against the rules. The thing is, when you can obviously show that the infraction of the rules did not equate to increased illegal plays on the field, yes, one must wonder why so much scrutiny and villification?
And I too think it is all about the money. But let's look on which side that applies. One side wishes for these issues and statistics to be heard in a court of law. They want the public to see and know exactly what the evidence is and if Goodell is acting in a fair manner.
The other side does not want this. If they wish to make this program seem like such a huge scandal to the public, why not want to back that up with the evidence they have?
While you point to Vilma as being "on his last legs", I think what you fail to realise. recognise or admit (not sure which one), is that the NFL is facing a concussion lawsiut in the hundreds of millions. IF they can garner support that it's the coaches and players that are responsible for such activity and ignoring concussions, rather than the league that should have taken that responsability.........
The NFL stands to gain hundreds of times the money Vilma ever could. So we both feel this case is about the money.
But if the NFL has so much evidence, if the NFL has this open and shut case they claim, if the punishment fits the crime, then why are they trying so very hard to keep all of their evidence secretive? Why are they trying to hide their evidence, or lack there of from the fans and the public?
People have no motive for keeping secrets if they have nothing to hide. The NFL has a HUGE motive for trying to shift the burden of the concussion issue onto the players and coaches. And I believe if you plan to follow the money trail, which you have suggested yourself, we should be looking at "the big money trail", not the little one.
So yes, I don't believe the NFL has a strong case. And yes, I think in a court of law Goodell will be told he went too far when all of the evidence comes to light.
And yes I do believe this whole thing centers around money..... The NFL's money.
That's my point.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Doesn't matter Mac, he was a dirty player.
Peen...the opinions of everyone who voted honors for Tatum (11 seperate awards) do not matter?...so says the Florida Gators fan.
I don't understand the Gator comment?
There is no right or wrong here. There are a lot of people who think he was a dirty player.
I am not questioning he was a good player. I just don't respect players who tried to hurt other players. Dick Butkus was a great player, but I don't respect him either.
The difference between them and Conrad Dobler is they were good enough to make the HOF....that doesn't change the fact they were dirty players.
How do you feel about Brandon Spikes?
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So you think the NFL made it all up?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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Doesn't matter Mac, he was a dirty player.
Peen...the opinions of everyone who voted honors for Tatum (11 seperate awards) do not matter?...so says the Florida Gators fan.
I don't understand the Gator comment?
There is no right or wrong here. There are a lot of people who think he was a dirty player.
I am not questioning he was a good player. I just don't respect players who tried to hurt other players. Dick Butkus was a great player, but I don't respect him either.
The difference between them and Conrad Dobler is they were good enough to make the HOF....that doesn't change the fact they were dirty players.
How do you feel about Brandon Spikes?
I liked him, just as I liked Woody Hayes.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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That is a good question.
In the broad sense, no. In the punk sense, yes. No matter how much money you have, a few thousand dollars is still of value. Why do drug dealers who deal in hundreds of thousands of dollars get upset if some underling skims off $5000??
Money is money. Don't try to make me believe $5000 isn't a large sum of money to someone worth millions.
It is.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I do freely admit that an incentive that pays for people being carted off is wrong. That's not an issue with me.
I'm glad you find it wrong, but THAT'S NOT AN ISSUE WITH YOU?
Then just what have you been arguing in all of those posts? That's the frickin' basis of this whole ordeal. It's why they call it "bounty gate". It's why all of the punitive actions were taken. The Saints implemented a financial reward system for injuring an opposing player.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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I do freely admit that an incentive that pays for people being carted off is wrong. That's not an issue with me.
I'm glad you find it wrong, but THAT'S NOT AN ISSUE WITH YOU?
Then just what have you been arguing in all of those posts? That's the frickin' basis of this whole ordeal. It's why they call it "bounty gate". It's why all of the punitive actions were taken. The Saints implemented a financial reward system for injuring an opposing player.
But it's all the NFL and Roger Goodells fault! 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I don't understand the Gator comment?
There is no right or wrong here. There are a lot of people who think he was a dirty player.
I am not questioning he was a good player. I just don't respect players who tried to hurt other players. Dick Butkus was a great player, but I don't respect him either.
peen...are you not a Gator fan?
Of those who believe Tatum was a dirty player...I wonder how many thought the hit on Stingley was dirty?
Also, there were rumors that Tatum never told Stingley that he was sorry...which is not true...Tatum tried to...
...but when he went to the hospital to see Stingley but the Stingley family would not allow Tatum to see him.
Peen...do know what coach had the most influence in developing Tatum into the player he was in the NFL?....Woody Hayes.
So why don't you "respect" Dick Butkus?
Dick Butkus was the greatest middle LB to ever play the game and yes, he would try to hurt you.
You say you don't respect players who try to hurt other players...then you don't respect "most" who play in the NFL and good portion who play in college.
Ask all NFL players this question...Have you ever tried to block/tackle/hit another player during a game, with the thought of hurting that player?
I would guess well over 90% of the players would say YES.
But again, here is the thing, a player is not capable of dialing up a hit that injures another player, ON DEMAND...it just doesn't work that way. You hit a player as hard as you can, not knowing if that player is going to bounce up and run back to the huddle as if nothing happened...or...if that player is going to be carted off the field.
99% of the time, a player is not going to be able to hurt his opponent, regardless. So this idea that the player doing the hitting can dial up an injury when they want, is just a fantasy that some believe.
I seriously doubt that NFL players care if fans "respect" them. By the same token, I believe a very high percentage of football players in the NFL do respect guys like Butkus and Tatum...and consider them to be among the best to ever play their positions.
Some fans are just out of touch with the reality when it comes to playing football at the highest levels.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Why do drug dealers who deal in hundreds of thousands of dollars get upset if some underling skims off $5000??
Drug dealing is an illegal act to begin with. The mentality it takes to have an illegal profession to begin with sets the stage for this. When you try to compare someone steeped in illegal activity to begin with, to a legal profession I really don't see any comparison. When someones career is a felony offense you can expect more to follow.
A pro athlete has a legal career and a specialized legal profession. Two totally different animals.
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Money is money. Don't try to make me believe $5000 isn't a large sum of money to someone worth millions.
To risk your legal profession and your career worth millions of dollars to play dirty for 5k takes a punk mentality to begin with. You can't turn a millionaire who is not a punk into a punk for 5k.
If you actually feel differently about that, then we just disagree....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Then just what have you been arguing in all of those posts? That's the frickin' basis of this whole ordeal. It's why they call it "bounty gate". It's why all of the punitive actions were taken. The Saints implemented a financial reward system for injuring an opposing player.
I guess if you can't read and comprehend the points made, that's your own issue, not mine. The fact you refuse to try to address those points, mock and ignore those points speaks volumes.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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But it's all the NFL and Roger Goodells fault!
No, but everything that happened afterwords does. Once again, you refuse to even try to address any points made because you would actually have to think and respond. We can't have that now can we?
‘Too Harsh,’ NFL Punishment May Lack Remedy, Judge Says
The full-season suspension of professional football player Jonathan Vilma for his alleged role in a player injury bounty program was “too harsh,” a judge said -- adding that she may be unable to change it.
U.S. District Judge Helen G. Berrigan in New Orleans today heard two hours of arguments from the National Football League and players over the NFL’s request that she throw out challenges to the punishments by Vilma, a New Orleans Saints linebacker, and three other suspended athletes. She didn’t rule.
“I think the penalty was too harsh,” the judge said, She said she wanted to rule in Vilma’s favor. “If I can do it legally, I will,” she said.
“I feel very powerless up here,” Berrigan said, citing the disciplinary provisions in the union contract. “I don’t think it was fair.”
The collective-bargaining agreement between the NFL Players Association and the league gives Commissioner Roger Goodell the authority to punish conduct detrimental to the game and league, the judge said.
“Does ‘conduct detrimental’ vacate everything else?” the judge said. “That doesn’t seem what the players bargained for.”
Berrigan ended the hearing saying she had reached preliminary conclusions and “will try to issue a decision as quickly as possible.”
“This hearing has been very helpful,” she said. “It has raised some questions in my mind about what I can and can’t do.”
Injury Queries
The judge questioned Vilma’s attorney, Peter R. Ginsberg, about giving cash rewards to players for hits resulting in opponents’ being carted off the field.
“It seems to me that is in fact a bounty,” she said.
Vilma wasn’t trying to injure anyone, the lawyer responded.
New Orleans player Will Smith faces a four-game ban, and former Saints Anthony Hargrove and Scott Fujita face eight-game and three-game sanctions, respectively.
“The plaintiffs are not entitled to any relief,” league lawyers argued in court papers, citing the collective-bargaining agreement. “The suspensions followed an extensive investigation by the NFL’s Security Department, the results of which were shared” with the players’ association.
About two dozen Saints players and now-former Defensive Coordinator Gregg Williams participated in the bounty program, Goodell announced on March 3.
Probe’s Beginning
The NFL’s investigation started two years earlier when league officials heard the team was targeting Super Bowl-winning quarterbacks Brett Favre and Kurt Warner.
Sean Payton, the team’s head coach, has also been disqualified for the entire 2012 season. Williams, now a member of the St. Louis Rams’ organization, has been banned indefinitely.
Vilma, who also sued Goodell for defamation, denied the bounty program’s existence at a July 26 hearing and testified he never paid or took money for intentionally inflicting an injury.
“I’ve never offered money to hurt another player -- not with the Saints, not with the Jets, not in my whole career,” said Vilma, who was selected by the New York Jets in the first round of the 2004 draft.
The players’ association filed suit on behalf of Smith, Fujita and Hargrove. All three cases were consolidated before Berrigan last month.
Biased Arbitrator
In court papers filed in opposition to the league’s dismissal request, the players union said Goodell failed to act as a neutral arbitrator when Vilma and the others challenged their suspensions.
“The commissioner was acting as an arbitrator in hearing the players’ disciplinary appeals,” lawyers for the players’ union said in an Aug. 3 filing. “As an arbitrator, the commissioner was subject to the prohibition against evident partiality.”
Goodell, the players’ attorneys said, “engaged in a public relations campaign defending and prejudging the very subjects he intended to arbitrate.”
Goodell didn’t breach the disciplinary process, Gladstone Jones, a lawyer for the league, said in court. The commissioner has “an open mind” about the player punishments, he said.
Goodell has repeatedly said he wants to hear from the players and would consider reducing their suspensions, Jones said. The players never gave the process a chance, he said.
“The players were caught between a rock and a hard place,” Berrigan said.
Coach’s Testimony
Joe Vitt, the acting Saints head coach, who faces a six- game suspension, told Berrigan at the July hearing there was a pay-for-performance plan rewarding players for plays that help the team.
“This has always been fun-based performance,” he testified. “A tackle is $50,” he said “Back in the old days it was like $5.” He said a “whack” was a legal tackle and one that forced a player out of the game is a “cart-off.
If a player got a needless penalty, he could lose money for hurting the team, Vitt said. He said some NFL teams gave color TV sets for defensive plays. “It was a way to have fun,” Vitt said. “A kangaroo court, if you will.”
The case is Vilma v. Goodell, 12-cv-1283, U.S. District Court, Eastern District of Louisiana (New Orleans).
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-10...judge-says.html
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
Injury Queries
The judge questioned Vilma’s attorney, Peter R. Ginsberg, about giving cash rewards to players for hits resulting in opponents’ being carted off the field.
“It seems to me that is in fact a bounty,” she said.
I think you highlighted the wrong portion. Yes, she thinks the suspension was too harsh, but is not sure if she has the authority to change it (because of the NFLPA-bargained CBA). So, suspensions may get reduced if she feels she can get around that one (the major question on that will be what effects that might have on future suspensions).
The one I quoted above is the bigger one as to our discussion here though. She does believe that such a program is a bounty (at least from this script. we'll see what she says when she renders her official decision).
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Which although not in totality of the points I've made, a part of it.
It seems the judge does agree with the players that in as much as a program existed, the punishment did not fit the crime. That the results, or lack there of stemming from this program in no way fits with the severity that has been placed upon it by Goodell.
And what I get from reading it is she isn't sure she has a legal right to change it, but she's looking for one.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
Which although not in totality of the points I've made, a part of it.
It seems the judge does agree with the players that in as much as a program existed, the punishment did not fit the crime. That the results, or lack there of stemming from this program in no way fits with the severity that has been placed upon it by Goodell.
And what I get from reading it is she isn't sure she has a legal right to change it, but she's looking for one.
which, it seems that the NFL would also agree.
with the bigger public suspensions (Vick, Big Ben), the NFL seems to like to have harsh penalties that can be scaled back if the players do something in return (Vick advocating animal rights, meeting with Tony Dungy, etc.). It allows the NFL to look tough while offering something back to the players. It is a bit of a joke as it's all PR (which is one reason the players are likely "revolting" in this case).
I would have suspected something similar in this case, but now, who knows.
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Or, I've been talking about the act the Saints took.
And you've been talking about the reaction the NFL took.
But hey, let's talk down to others instead of having a discussion about it.
Always helpful.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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But hey, let's talk down to others instead of having a discussion about it.
Always helpful.
I was just following your lead. Sometimes you reap what you sew. I haven't seen you try to discuss anything on here and your last jab was obvious. So I jabbed back.
If you want to discuss things, let's discuss. But I've been trying to get you to do that for three pages now.
You might wish to look back and read this thread. I've been trying to discuss things for quite some time. But you and J are the ones who took this thing down to the "talk down to others" level, not me.
And I will give what I get...... Every time. So don't sit here and throw jabs and not expect to get bloodied.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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4'm not the one talking out of both sides of my mouth.
Yes there were bounties...
...But they shouldn't have been punished that severe!!
What does that even mean? You act like there is a presidence for this.
There is now. Goodell set it, you get caught doing this kind of crap, and this is the level of punishment you'll have to deal with.
Have a problem with that? Take it up with the Commish.
Or sit there and keep spouting pointless penalty stats no one cares about.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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It's quite obvious. The stats show conclusively that any program paid had no real impact on the field of play. And people are taking it up with Goodell. Even the judge sees a major discrepancy here. It appears some mebers of this board do not wish to look at this from the big picture view. They wish to look at the microscopic version of it. That's their choice. But most people have a firm grasp that for every action, there is supposed to be an equal and opposite reaction. In this case, there is no evidence of an equal and opposite reaction. That's why so many can see a bias and motive for Goodell to react this way. Of course nobody seems to think that the NFL facing a law suit in the hundreds of millions has anything to do with this because they don't want to look at it big picture. They seemingly refuse to even discuss the fact that the NFL has a HUGE reason to try to place the blame of player safety on anyone other than themselves. So you go ahead and look at nothing but what you wish to. But you'll soon see how the NFL will try to use this against the players to try to save their own butts. It's far more of a legal tactic by Goodell the lawyer, than it is a punishment by Goodell the Comissioner. I know, you don't care and that has nothing to do with anything........... 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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They seemingly refuse to even discuss the fact that the NFL has a HUGE reason to try to place the blame of player safety on anyone other than themselves.
I'll say it again.
If someone came into the NFL, without knowledge that it is bad for their health to play Professional Football.
Then they need more help than the NFL could give.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Your stance is akin to someone being caught hiring a hitman, and since he didn't actually carry out the hit....the penalty should be much less severe.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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