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Or maybe certain teams look for similar things in players, and they look outside the draft services standardized rankings.
There are 3-4 teams ad 4-3 teams, there are 4-3 teams that run their schemes using more of a NT, and others that don't. We happen to be a team, as someone pointed out in reply to one of my posts, that uses 1 DT more like a NT. Given that, then a strong, immobile NT type makes some sense. If you want a guy who holds his ground, then Hughes looks like the guy.
I never really paid that much attention to the Saints defense, but if their scheme is similar, then it is entirely possible that they would rank a similar player in a similar part of the draft. Heck, they wound up taking the guy out of Canada with the pick immediately following ours, so they were looking DT.
I do know that some people on the board liked the Saints pick better than ours, but I had never seen either guy play, and frankly hadn't really paid any attention to either guy as a potential draftee for us.
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j/c Finally...a video featuring Hughes. Stout against the run (especially at the point of attack) occasional QB pressure, but clearly he was drafted because he's an immovable object. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7nmyu1Y56Bw
Last edited by invnobody; 05/01/12 04:18 AM.
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Here is the bottom line.
We wanted the guy and felt we wasn't going to last until our next pick.
That's why we drafted him. Just because some of us don't like the pick, or approve with the spot we drafted him doesn't mean squat.
I think he is going to be a perfect fit with Rubin and Taylor.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think he is going to be a perfect fit with Rubin and Taylor.
Agree 100%....nice addition for the DL rotation, not a every down player will give the boys a breather to keep our run def. fresh for the 4th quarter, Will be nice to line 3-4 of these guys up for goal line def.
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Thanks for this vid, he looks stout on most play, didn't like the play at 3:33, where they ran right at him with the FB blowing him away, but overall Hughes is hard to move and makes the LBs job easier....he's a massive body in the middle of that D
Also, did you guys know that Cincy had a Top 10 rush D last season? They were 5th with an impresssive 2.71 AVG against and only 10 rushing TDs allowed, right up there with the likes of Bama and LSU...David Wilson and WVU ran for 32yds in 32 attempts
I think Hughes is a case of a "tape found" while watching Wolfe..."who's this no.40, who never gets pushed back?"
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A 3rd DT is an important addition. I think Heckert et al saw what my friends and I saw last year. When Rubin and Taylor were in the game our run D was stout. As soon as one of them went out of the game, opposing offenses would run right at their replacement and pick up big gains.
We had a nice goal line defense last year. Seems as if we had a goal line stand at least once a game. Imagine it being even better now with Rubin heads up on the center flanked on either side by Taylor and Hughes.
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When Rubin and Taylor were in the game our run D was stout.
Bye the 4th Quarter these guys were pretty tired, one dosent haul around a 300 LB frame for 3-4 hrs without getting tired, hopefully our D-line will be fresh and able to stop the run in the 4th just as much as in the 1st quarters.
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To compound on that, hopefully our offense puts our D in a position for once where they don't have to stop the run all the time in the 4th quarter.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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When Rubin and Taylor were in the game our run D was stout.
Bye the 4th Quarter these guys were pretty tired, one dosent haul around a 300 LB frame for 3-4 hrs without getting tired, hopefully our D-line will be fresh and able to stop the run in the 4th just as much as in the 1st quarters.
Not picking on you here - just in general.
There are 60 minutes in a game. The Browns D averages, what, 35 minutes on the field? Half of the time, the clock is running.
An average play lasts, 10 seconds? 12 seconds? Then they huddle. Heck, let's say an average play is 15 seconds, and the average break in between plays is 20 seconds. Heck, let's say it's 15 seconds. Nice round number.
Play for 15 seconds, recoup for 15 seconds - that means 2 plays per clock minute. 35 minutes - that equals 70 plays. 70 15 second bursts over the course of 3 hours.
If they can't take that (and that doesn't include t.v. time outs, half time, quarter breaks, special teams plays, etc) if they can't take busting butt 70 times over 3 hours............then they need to do more conditioning.
Look at the receivers, or d-backs. Granted, they aren't 300 lbs - but they run 2 to 3 times as much as the defensive line.
How come we never hear that the O line is tired? Most of them are right around 300 pounds.
If our d is on the field for 70 plays, the other teams O is on the field for 70 plays.
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With regard to the Tennessee game, that game was very early in the year(second game). They were the first non-div II opponent we faced. It took time with a mostly new staff, to get the D-line to the point it was by the end of the year. He doesn't stand nearly as tall as he did then, his technique is better. Nice to see someone taking the time though. DT isn't always a very glamorous position. I'm curious if him being double teamed most of the year, made Derek Wolfe look better. Guess the Broncos will find out 
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it takes a ton more effort to play defense than offense (who know where they are going)
it takes more energy/effort to play in the trenches than out in the open field. slamming full force and still trying to be quick/fast enough to get to a RB/QB in less than 3 seconds is alot more tiring than doing wind sprints on the perimeter (btw, WRs are one of the more heavily rotated spots as well)
you don't want DL "saving" anything. you want them going full bore at all times, to do so requires them to be rotated to keep fresh.
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Not to mention the fact interior D Linemen are often tasked to take on more than one blocker. You don't really see it the other way around with the O Line.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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It's also psychological. If you are on the field for a long time on offense, it's because you are being successful.. if you are on the field for a long time on defense, it's because you are not being successful.. and that takes a toll on you.
Oh well, 32 teams in the NFL have a DL rotation to try to keep the big uglies fresh and to have pass and run stop specialists, etc, I'm just glad ours got better and am not going to fight the "why do they have to do that" argument.
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Quote:
it takes a ton more effort to play defense than offense (who know where they are going)
it takes more energy/effort to play in the trenches than out in the open field. slamming full force and still trying to be quick/fast enough to get to a RB/QB in less than 3 seconds is alot more tiring than doing wind sprints on the perimeter (btw, WRs are one of the more heavily rotated spots as well)
you don't want DL "saving" anything. you want them going full bore at all times, to do so requires them to be rotated to keep fresh.
I have no problem with rotating players. None.
I just don't buy into the whole "well, the O knows where they're going " thing.
The d knows where they're going as well - d line that is.
While it may be a tad more physical for the d line, come on. 10 seconds of effort, then rest for 20 seconds? (my examples in my previous post were being kind to the d players) If you can't do that for 10 or 12 plays at a time (average nfl drive - or close to it), then sorry man, you need to do some cardio workouts while you're watching film.
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the DL has a shift right on (to the offenses left). the offense runs an off-tackle right (so to the offenses right). each DL now has to fight against a block that is directly in their path to the RB, get through it, and chase down the RB down the line (while keeping the cut-back options limited) after their initial step of power was in the wrong direction.
that doesn't happen to the OL who is always taking a power-step to the correct place. they sometimes hit air initially and have to quickly find their guy, but their steps are forward and not changing direction. that is a HUGE deal IMO.
Note: not that it matters all that much, but I played primarily OG and NT in high school and NT took a ton more effort to play.
Last edited by no_logo_required; 05/01/12 03:57 PM.
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While it may be a tad more physical for the d line, come on. 10 seconds of effort, then rest for 20 seconds? (my examples in my previous post were being kind to the d players) If you can't do that for 10 or 12 plays at a time (average nfl drive - or close to it), then sorry man, you need to do some cardio workouts while you're watching film.
10-12 play drives might be average for scoring drives, but if the average drive against you is 10-12 plays, your defense sucks.
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I dunno, man. Have you ever tried doing Tabatta interval training? It's a 4 minute workout, but that stuff can be pretty crazy. I know that the ratio is 20 secs to 10, but I'm also not 300 lbs.
JMHO.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Quote:
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While it may be a tad more physical for the d line, come on. 10 seconds of effort, then rest for 20 seconds? (my examples in my previous post were being kind to the d players) If you can't do that for 10 or 12 plays at a time (average nfl drive - or close to it), then sorry man, you need to do some cardio workouts while you're watching film.
10-12 play drives might be average for scoring drives, but if the average drive against you is 10-12 plays, your defense sucks.
Furthering my point I believe.
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Quote:
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it takes a ton more effort to play defense than offense (who know where they are going)
it takes more energy/effort to play in the trenches than out in the open field. slamming full force and still trying to be quick/fast enough to get to a RB/QB in less than 3 seconds is alot more tiring than doing wind sprints on the perimeter (btw, WRs are one of the more heavily rotated spots as well)
you don't want DL "saving" anything. you want them going full bore at all times, to do so requires them to be rotated to keep fresh.
I have no problem with rotating players. None.
I just don't buy into the whole "well, the O knows where they're going " thing.
The d knows where they're going as well - d line that is.
While it may be a tad more physical for the d line, come on. 10 seconds of effort, then rest for 20 seconds? (my examples in my previous post were being kind to the d players) If you can't do that for 10 or 12 plays at a time (average nfl drive - or close to it), then sorry man, you need to do some cardio workouts while you're watching film.
Considering that this is an issue with all 32 teams in the NFL, I don't think its as simple as getting in a few more cardio workouts.
Try lifting your refrigerator for 5 seconds 12 times in a row and see if you don't pass out.
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Considering that this is an issue with all 32 teams in the NFL, I don't think its as simple as getting in a few more cardio workouts.
Call me crazy, but I don't think it's an "issue"........I think it's an excuse that has been espoused so often the majority of people believe it. It's an excuse.
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Try lifting your refrigerator for 5 seconds 12 times in a row and see if you don't pass out.
What? Which d-lineman lifts a refrigerator? Regardless, I would bet most could. Pick it up, hold it for 5 seconds, set it down, wait 20 seconds, do it again. I bet most could.
As for stupid analogies, Why don't you go out and try to shove a 300 pound hog where he doesn't want to go. Do that 12 times in a row, with a 20 second break. Don't tell me you wouldn't be tired.
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Considering that this is an issue with all 32 teams in the NFL, I don't think its as simple as getting in a few more cardio workouts.
Call me crazy, but I don't think it's an "issue"........I think it's an excuse that has been espoused so often the majority of people believe it. It's an excuse.
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Try lifting your refrigerator for 5 seconds 12 times in a row and see if you don't pass out.
What? Which d-lineman lifts a refrigerator? Regardless, I would bet most could. Pick it up, hold it for 5 seconds, set it down, wait 20 seconds, do it again. I bet most could.
As for stupid analogies, Why don't you go out and try to shove a 300 pound hog where he doesn't want to go. Do that 12 times in a row, with a 20 second break. Don't tell me you wouldn't be tired.
Exactly, I'd be exhausted. And so would you.
You crack me up. Believe whatever you want. If it was so easy, every 300 pound fatty would be playing D line in the NFL.
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Call me crazy, but I don't think it's an "issue"........I think it's an excuse that has been espoused so often the majority of people believe it. It's an excuse.
If it's an excuse then why do I see defensive linemen bent over sucking wind in the middle of long drives, especially on hot days?
If it was more productive for these guys to drop 50 pounds and be more fit to be on the field on every play, most of them, for the money they make, would do it... but the powers that be feel it is in their best interest to be 50 pounds heavier to play their position and have a rotation that allows them to rest periodically..
You can tell us fans we are wrong all day long but as long as NFL GM's and coaches are doing it this way, I'll assume that it's because they feel it gives them the best chance to win...
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With regard to the Tennessee game, that game was very early in the year(second game). They were the first non-div II opponent we faced. It took time with a mostly new staff, to get the D-line to the point it was by the end of the year. He doesn't stand nearly as tall as he did then, his technique is better.
Nice to see someone taking the time though.
DT isn't always a very glamorous position.
I'm curious if him being double teamed most of the year, made Derek Wolfe look better.
Guess the Broncos will find out
I thought of that too.
Hughes almost every play I have watched was double teamed.
Someone is going to benefit from that, no doubt.
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It takes tremendous strength to be a defensive lineman.
The best run D's in the NFL, are the ones who are not only skilled but fresh.
As far as I'm aware, Cleveland last year had a problem stopping the run, I find it hard to believe, keeping a constant fresh rush is not going to help.
The problem with a D-line, is you have different personal, with different specialties.
In the AFCN, I have a hard time believing good D-lineman aren't a sought after commodity. That said, the Browns from my understanding, have other needs.
Thus, the front office will need to show measurable improvement. Hopefully they don't use a new QB and RB as an excuse. The difference in your run D should be obvious though. Whether that takes a couple of years to really take effect, I'm not sure.
I'm not the most observant person, of today's league.
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I like telling Old Man STORYS .. Back in my day we played both ways .. School was to small and the best players had to go on D & O ..  .. No one took themselves out of a game 
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Your perception may be true. But ask yourself why?
Is it because teams ran against so much, late in games, because they had the lead?
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I just don't buy into the whole "well, the O knows where they're going " thing.
The d knows where they're going as well - d line that is.
I don't agree with that Arch...D is totally reactionary predicated on what the O does.
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I like telling Old Man STORYS .. Back in my day we played both ways .. School was to small and the best players had to go on D & O .. .. No one took themselves out of a game
Yeah, old man stories. Small high school 20, 30 years ago? Vs. an nfl team today?
Apparently I am under the mistaken assumption these guys are athletes. If getting tuckered out playing 50 snaps a game is the rule these days for d line men, well, so be it. I guess my idea of "athlete" is changing.
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Your perception may be true. But ask yourself why?
Is it because teams ran against so much, late in games, because they had the lead?
If I wanted to protect a lead, against a team with only one or two people who were good against the run and a limited number of bodies on the line total, I'd try to break down their front through brute force also. Once that line breaks, it's over. You have winded, not very strong linemen, needing help from the backfield to stop people, it wears them out too and worse yet, once you have to commit help, it leaves recievers open to burn you.
Again though, I really didn't watch the Browns enough to say for sure, that this is an absolute need. I watched enough to see the recieving core wasn't very good, the O-line was troubled and the run attack was at times, non-existent.
Whether the draft did well to address these issue, I guess we'll see.
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If it's an excuse then why do I see defensive linemen bent over sucking wind in the middle of long drives, especially on hot days?
Because they are fat and out of shape.
I don't see linebackers getting the same excuse. I don't see d-backs using the same excuse.
Look, everyone gets a rest. They get rotated out. (except for the o line mostly) For these 300 pounders plus.........they flat out can't take running for 10 seconds at a time with a 20 second break.
If the extra 30 lbs or so is doing that, lose it. I'd rather have 11 high motor guys as opposed to having to spell a d linemen every 2 plays. If working for 10 seconds is a problem for them, and they need a break every 2 or 3 plays........that's sad. Especially when they get tv timeouts, rest on offensive possessions (Thomas - unless hurt, he plays every down on O, right?)
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If it was more productive for these guys to drop 50 pounds and be more fit to be on the field on every play, most of them, for the money they make, would do it... but the powers that be feel it is in their best interest to be 50 pounds heavier to play their position and have a rotation that allows them to rest periodically..
Periodically????? Every 2 or 3 plays is "periodically"??? Get lean. You don't need to be 300 lbs and breathless to be good. You can be 275 and quicker, stronger, and last longer.
I can understand a guy that is a great pass rusher coming in on 3rd and long.
You can tell us fans we are wrong all day long but as long as NFL GM's and coaches are doing it this way, I'll assume that it's because they feel it gives them the best chance to win...
I'm not telling anyone they are wrong. I'm stating my opinion.
I do think the guru's in the nfl put too much weight on weight. But, they are the guru's, so I'll have to deal with it. It just makes me sick when I hear, late in a game "oh, the d line is tired."
The offense they are opposing has been out there the exact same amount of time.
Plus, we're talking 10 seconds out of every 45 seconds or so. Excuse me if I don't pity the d line for doing what the o line does. It DOES take a bit more effort for the d line, no doubt. But if weight is the only object............just eat more, right? If physical ability is the goal, get to a decent weight. Let your physical ability take over.
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I agree with the to much weight on weight comment, but it still takes effort to push a 210 lb person out of the way if they are in your way....getting in the way can be considered blocking.....you don't have to pancake somebody to execute a block. Slowing them up just enough to not make the tackle gets you graded a +
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Well I will admit that the game was some what different back in the day ( 40 some years ago ) .. There was just noway you could make a team ( or play in a game ) if you were out of shape .. I played Guard and MLB and of course special teams .. We took pride in playing Iron Man Football back then. And of course we played for the fun of the game ( and bragging rights ) ..  Things change , not always for the best ! Remember , even the Pro's had jobs other than football back then ; Had to ! .. .
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When you have offensive of lineman that weigh well over 300 pounds you need big bodied d lineman. It is much easier to push around someone that is 50 pounds lighter, no matter how strong they are.
It's also not that they are so out of shape. If all they had to play is for 10 seconds and stop it would be easy. Lineman are constantly putting great force on each other which takes more out of a person then most people think.
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When you have offensive of lineman that weigh well over 300 pounds you need big bodied d lineman. It is much easier to push around someone that is 50 pounds lighter, no matter how strong they are.
It's also not that they are so out of shape. If all they had to play is for 10 seconds and stop it would be easy. Lineman are constantly putting great force on each other which takes more out of a person then most people think.
No doubt P...go down to the gym, push even 250 lbs and hold it 10 seconds, wait 30 seconds, and do it again a few times.
You'll be tuckered as well.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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You are failing to understand both the reality of the game in the trenches and basic physics and kinesiology. D lineman are overweight because they need to hold the point of attack and big strong 300 pound men are trying to push them out of the way. I may be able to bench 1000 pounds (I can't) but that won't help me if I'm a lean 250 and an OT can just push me back because I don't weigh enough. Sumo wrestlers are all big fatties. it makes them harder to push around.
Which is all beside the point, because what matters is that these guys are giving maximum effort in short burts, which is exhausting. It's different than, say, a linebacker, who may spend half or more of the play just watching or even running. It takes less energy to sprint at full speed for ten seconds than it does to push the entirety of your weight and strength against an "immovable" object. It also takes much more energy to sprint for ten seconds if you are carrying an extra 50 pounds of weight.
Just use logic Arch, and basic physics, and you'll get to the understanding that the rest of the league does.
I have no idea what you look like, but I imagine you as some dude with a beer gut, sitting in a lazyboy, and screaming at a TV for guys who are getting hit with sledgehammers while running wind sprints to "toughen up and get in shape."
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6' 2", 190 to 195. Your description of me is lame at best. Further more, the t.v. I watch is only of Browns games - during which, if I'm not at the game - I'm standing in my garage.
Other t.v. I watch? When I go to bed - I catch 15 minutes to 1 hour of tv. All depends on when I decide to go to sleep.
I don't feel I'm wrong in my comments. If others do, fine.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,223
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,223 |
Quote:
Quote:
When you have offensive of lineman that weigh well over 300 pounds you need big bodied d lineman. It is much easier to push around someone that is 50 pounds lighter, no matter how strong they are.
It's also not that they are so out of shape. If all they had to play is for 10 seconds and stop it would be easy. Lineman are constantly putting great force on each other which takes more out of a person then most people think.
No doubt P...go down to the gym, push even 250 lbs and hold it 10 seconds, wait 30 seconds, and do it again a few times.
You'll be tuckered as well.
I lift weights, and I can tell you for a fact, even 10lbs can make a difference. I'm not a big framed guy at all, so I really have to work at what I do. But I can put up 225 10 times, add just 10 pounds, and be able to only put it up 8 times, for example. So 50 pounds over the course of the game is a huge difference.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
You just kind of proved my point, whether you see it or not.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,223
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,223 |
I know what you're getting at, Arch. At least I'm pretty sure. Wasn't arguing against you, just was saying that no matter what, pushing more weight around no matter what will tire you faster.
"The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Round 3 (pick #87) John Hughes, DT
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