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jc...
When one stakes out several different positions, covering 360 degrees...they can claim they are never wrong... 
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Heckert has built nearly full team with 3 Browns drafts - Canton, OH - CantonRep.com http://www.cantonrep.com/browns/x206665246/Heckert-has-built-nearly-full-team-with-3-Browns-draftsBEREA — Tom Hecklert has said it a million times. “You build through the draft.” He sure hasn’t wasted any time trying. Through three drafts engineered by Heckert since he became general manager of the Browns less than 2 1/2 years ago, he has criss-crossed the talent pools. He actually has assembled an entire roster of players for every position on offense and defense. He is just one offensive lineman and one linebacker short of being able to play an intra-squad game with players from his three drafts. Here is a depth chart of his picks upon the conclusion of the 2012 draft: OFFENSE (14 players) Quarterback: Brandon Weeden (No. 22, 2012); Colt McCoy (No. 85, 2010) Running back: Trent Richardson (No. 3, 2012); Montario Hardesty (No. 59, 2010) Offensive tackle: Mitchell Schwartz (No. 37, 2012), Ryan Miller (No. 160, 2012) Guard: Shawn Lauvao (No. 92, 2010), Jason Pinskton (No. 150, 2011) Center: None Wide receiver: Greg Little (No. 59, 2011), Travis Benjamin (No. 100, 2012), Carlton Mitchell (No. 177, 2010) Tight end: Jordan Cameron (No. 102, 2011); Brad Smelley (No. 247, 2012) Fullback: Owen Marecic (No. 124, 2011) DEFENSE (13 players) Tackle: Phil Taylor (No. 21, 2011), John Hughes (No. 87, 2012) End: Jabaal Sheard (No. 37, 2011), Billy Winn (No. 205, 2012); Clifton Geathers* (No. 186, 2010) Linebacker: James-Michael Johnson (No. 120, 2012); Emmanuel Acho (No. 204, 2012) Cornerback: Joe Haden (No. 7, 2010), Buster Skrine (No. 137, 2011); Trevin Wade (No. 245, 2012) Safety: T.J. Ward (No. 38, 2010); Eric Hagg (No. 248, 2011); Larry Asante* (No. 160, 2010) *-no longer with team Heckert’s boss, Mike Holmgren, thinks Heckert is quite the architect. “Who knows for sure on the draft,” Holmgren said after three days of picking players was done, and Heckert was upstairs calling undrafted guys. “You really don’t analyze the draft for three years. You guys know that from the last two drafts, we are playing a lot of players, and they are playing pretty well. “There is no reason to think that these new kids won’t come in and do the same job. So our team, foundationally, is getting better.” Heckert was fired up after adding a new No. 1 back, Richardson; a projected franchise quarterback, Weeden, and a fix for a chronic problem at right tackle, Schwartz. “We feel a lot better,” he said. “I don’t know if we’ve transformed the offense, but ... going back to last year I think we made it a point to emphasize we wanted to be tough. “We thought we did that a little bit last year and the year before on our defense. Obviously, taking Trent helps us on being a physical team on offense. “Obviously the quarterback ... it remains to be seen how that all works out. I don’t know if we’ve transformed it, but I think we’ve gotten better.”
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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lol Heckert drafts players who play positions on a football team what a revelation.
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lol Heckert drafts players who play positions on a football team what a revelation.
lol, right?
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“Obviously the quarterback ... it remains to be seen how that all works out. I don’t know if we’ve transformed it, but I think we’ve gotten better.”
Well that's a glowing endorsement of the #22 pick.
yebat' Putin
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LOL I was thinking the same thing. If this was a "win now or else" year for this FO (as a number of posters here have "declared"), trotting out a rookie QB who doesn't possess a singe elite quality isn't the way to hold on to your job. 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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a rookie QB who doesn't possess a singe elite quality
Big arm and good accuracy on both short and long passes. Also has a good touch on passes when needed. Maybe not elite, what ever that was supposed to mean, but he has good qualities for a QB. If you don't like him fine, but to degrade him with such a comment is unfair.
#gmstrong
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LOL I was thinking the same thing. If this was a "win now or else" year for this FO (as a number of posters here have "declared"), trotting out a rookie QB who doesn't possess a singe elite quality isn't the way to hold on to your job.
The QB without a single elite, or even average for that matter, quality was the guy who was under Center last year.
He's been replaced with a guy who should be a pretty large upgrade.
McCoy is now what he should have been all along ...... a backup.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think I get what style of GM Heckert is by now...he's NOT a BPA guy, regardless of what they tell us....he is, what I call, a "target" guy...he has only several players he really, really likes at a particular spot and those are the guys he wants then, regardless of who falls
I understand what you are saying, but it is still BPA...it's just that he uses HIS board and not the board of popular opinion.
It's like when he said we had 18 players with 1st round grades. He doesn't base first round picks on 32 slots. He bases it on whatever criteria he and his staff have set up.
I am sure the largest part of it is talent, but there also has to be some factoring on fit for this team. As an example, if a guy is a stud 3-4 DE, it sounds like he isn't going to grade out on our scale.
Again, I do understand the targeting. He sets his mind on a player or two, he is going to get them....Hughes might be a perfect example. That wasn't a flubbed pick in so far as us selecting him...he wasn't going to lose him by waiting...he was a guy we had to have.
My thinking is this on that selection. In the pre-draft meetings, Jauron was told he wasn't going to get many players and none were going to be very early. I think they asked him, if you only get one pick in this draft, what do you need most?? I think he said a DT who stuffs the run as do our current starters. Jauron saw a drop in play when others came in, and DT's are big guys. You need to give them a blow every once in a while to keep them playing at the top of their game.
All the scouting said Hughes was who we wanted....but in round 4....but we kept losing the WR's we wanted a few picks before, so Heck gave his D the player they wanted...a rotational DT.
I know that sounds like we didn't get a good player, but in todays NFL, good rotational guys are like starters. We got a guy who plays like Rubin and Taylor....we won't have to change anything and we won't see a drop in play, or much of one.
I know it isn't sexy, but this guy makes our other DT's better because he will eat up 1/3 of their minutes without a drop in play. We will be 100% up front all game long.
Who's tired of seeing last drive wins by the other team because they ran the ball in to FG position??
I think Hughes was a Jauron pick. He wanted Hughes more than anyone in that 4th round range. Since the draft got ahead of Heck's board, he gave his DC the guy he wanted in the 3rd round.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
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a rookie QB who doesn't possess a singe elite quality
Big arm and good accuracy on both short and long passes. Also has a good touch on passes when needed. Maybe not elite, what ever that was supposed to mean, but he has good qualities for a QB. If you don't like him fine, but to degrade him with such a comment is unfair.
How is what I said degrading Weeden? He doesn't have the biggest arm. It's better than McCoy, but not elite. His accuracy is good, but not elite either. Blackmon bailed him out a fair amount at OSU.
Bottom line is, he's a rookie and he'll play like one. I swear some of you people seem to think that Weeden is going to come in and just light it up. I'm just saying, don't expect that. There's nothing in Weeden's game to suggest that's likely to happen. Will he be an upgrade over McCoy? I sure hope so, but we're more likely to see a noticeable improvement in 2013 than we are in 2012.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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The more I watch of Weeden's tape, the more I see how he really put the ball on his receivers, including Blackmon.
I didn't see receivers bailing him out ..... in fact they were frequently hit in stride, in the hands, and in position to make a play with the ball.
How many times did you see Blackmon bailing Weeden out? Can you put up some video so I can see it too?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The QB without a single elite, or even average for that matter, quality was the guy who was under Center last year.
He's been replaced with a guy who should be a pretty large upgrade.
McCoy is now what he should have been all along ...... a backup.
Pretty sure I didn't mention McCoy, but your agenda travels before you wherever you go so... Whatever. 
I noticed that you didn't disagree with my point that Weeden isn't an elite prospect (because he isn't).
I wouldn't disagree with you that Weeden should be an upgrade over McCoy; maybe even a big one. However, he's a rookie who has a LOT to learn. He's gonna play like one. Expecting to see a huge improvement in 2012 is wishful thinking. I just hope to God that he's showing a big leap by 2013. I have my doubts...
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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I expect a fairly big upgrade over last year because of the fact that our QB play was so incredibly inept last year. I truly believe that the QB held down the rest of the offense. It is obvious that the front office agrees, since they drafted a new QB, but largely stayed with the same receivers. When the QB doesn't throw the ball down the field, receivers don't make plays. It's weird how that works ......  I look at Weeden, and while he wasn't my 1st choice, he is far, far superior to our QB last year in terms of arm strength, accuracy, ball placement, anticipation, quick (and almost immediate) reads, and so on. I look forward to much of this to translate the the NFL level. Will Weeden be a perfect QB? Almost certainly not. Can he have enough plus qualities to be a winning QB for us? Absolutely. He may never reach great level ..... but I believe that he can be a very, very good QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The more I watch of Weeden's tape, the more I see how he really put the ball on his receivers, including Blackmon.
I didn't see receivers bailing him out ..... in fact they were frequently hit in stride, in the hands, and in position to make a play with the ball.
How many times did you see Blackmon bailing Weeden out? Can you put up some video so I can see it too?
What "tape" are you watching? A handful of YouTube videos? I didn't spend a whole lot of time on it, but I watched as many OSU games as I could last season because I thought Blackmon was a guy the Browns might target. There weren't that many (4 IIRC), but I saw plenty of big-time catches that required significant adjustments (mostly on outside throws).
The other thing I noticed was that Blackmon was generally wide-open a lot of the time. I don't recall seeing very many tight throws. The quality of the defenses Weeden faced was hardly elite, so, like all rookie QBs, he'll have to adjust to that as well.
In Weeden I just don't see a saviour (at least short term). I think we're going to struggle again next season. If we run the ball more effectively, we might win a couple more games, but Weeden isn't likely to helps us that much in 2012. Hopefully, he can get to Flacco's level at some point (good, but nothing special). However, that's really his ceiling, IMO. ::shrug::
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It is obvious that the front office agrees, since they drafted a new QB, but largely stayed with the same receivers. When the QB doesn't throw the ball down the field, receivers don't make plays. It's weird how that works
If receivers don't catch the balls that reach their hands, they don't make plays either. Funny how that happens as well...
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Not a huge weeden fan but I watched Weeden vs Luck and to be honest, if noone knew the names, you would have thought one guy looked like an NFL QB hitting the receivers in stride and the other guy threw a billion screens to wide open guys.
Weeden looked better and he put the ball in position for Blackmon to have success. Now blackmon did break a couple tackles and had monster yards after catch but point is, he didnt have to slow his momentum and that is huge in this offense.
I hope Weeden is who Heckert believes him to be because this was the Heckert pick.
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Not what I saw in the games I watched, but it doesn't matter now. We'll have to wait and see what happens when he faces real defenses at this level (and he'll see plenty of really good ones this season). ::shrug::
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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I think your right. It think Heck told DJ that the top 3-4 rounds would be for the O and he could have who he wanted after that. But with the WR dropping off in rds. 2-3 He decided to give DJ a bone and get the guy he wanted. It looks funny because the first 3 picks were all O and then we see D when were still short a WR.
I don't see a bad pick at 3, as some claim. They think we just up an made a pick and then turn around and say ol man, we made a bad pick time for damage control. Just don't think it works that way.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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Yeah, a lot of online videos.
There are videos of every throw in games that show a great deal. I don't see tons of throws that require the receiver to do a whole lot of adjusting to the ball. I see a lot of passes that hit guys right in the hands.
He's not perfect by any stretch, but he is a damn good college QB. Hopefully he becomes a great QB for our Cleveland Browns.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I hope Weeden is who Heckert believes him to be because this was the Heckert pick.
I was reading somewhere, Ill try to find it that suggests this was Holmgrens pick. Holmgren also pulled rank and moved up to #3. Heck wanted to sit at #4 and wanted to wait for Weeden at #37.
It was a local article, not something off a rumor mill...maybe in the ABJ or Canton paper.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I think I'm *this close* to putting Holmgren into my sig line, and the history of people who've made it to my sig line have all ended the same way...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Holmgren himself alluded as much about 75%-80% into the 4/28 presser, right before calling shurmur "the peacemaker." I got the feeling shurmur wasn't big on the move either.
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It is so terribly simple to see what Hecker is doing..
he's building from the Ground up. I still don't understand all his picks, but I can appreciate the method.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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It is so terribly simple to see what Hecker is doing..
he's building from the Ground up. I still don't understand all his picks, but I can appreciate the method.
Love the foundation that is being laid out here. Lots of young guys. Some up and comers.
I am big fan of Heckert. I think he's doing a great job, and I hope the fans of Cleveland don't run him out of town.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I think I'm *this close* to putting Holmgren into my sig line, and the history of people who've made it to my sig line have all ended the same way...
Seriously, let Heckert do his job. If Heckert goes down for bad picks, at least let it be for picks he wanted to make. Holmgren does a lot of things well. Drafting isn't one of them.
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Quote:
It is so terribly simple to see what Hecker is doing..
he's building from the Ground up. I still don't understand all his picks, but I can appreciate the method.
Love the foundation that is being laid out here. Lots of young guys. Some up and comers.
I am big fan of Heckert. I think he's doing a great job, and I hope the fans of Cleveland don't run him out of town.
The problem with some fans is that they hear 5 year plan. It's human nature to think,, ok,, 5 year plan. Increase the win totals by 1 or 2 games a year over 5 years.. as if it's some kinda even growth pattern.
it's not necessarly gonna work out that way. sometimes you have 0 growth and maybe even some regression until pieces are in place and begin to work together to produce.
My hope is that most fans understand that.. but if they don't,, as long as Holmgren and more importantly, Lerner understand it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Holmgren himself alluded as much about 75%-80% into the 4/28 presser, right before calling shurmur "the peacemaker." I got the feeling shurmur wasn't big on the move either.
I haven't watched the presser yet, but do you think this means Heckert was willing to forego getting Richardson?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Holmgren himself alluded as much about 75%-80% into the 4/28 presser, right before calling shurmur "the peacemaker." I got the feeling shurmur wasn't big on the move either.
I haven't watched the presser yet, but do you think this means Heckert was willing to forego getting Richardson?
I wouldn't be surprised, knowing how Heckert likes to build in the trenches. If someone jumped us for Richardson, that'd mean we'd have the top tackle prospect sitting there for us. We could take a trade back a few spots (including from the Vikings, if they had indeed traded back to 5). I mean, look at all the activity at the top of the draft. Dropping to 7 with Jacksonsville so they could take Blackmon, or even with Dallas to 15, and picking up a first next year? None of those were bad options.
Richardson looks to be a great back, but missing him and getting a great tackle, or a few extra high picks, isn't like missing out on luck or RG3. I brought it up before, but if we had picked Kalil and put him on the right side, and then used 37 for a RB, I wouldn't have been upset in the least.
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Why do people find it so hard to believe that they liked Blackmon? They've all said they liked Blackmon.
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I haven't watched the presser yet, but do you think this means Heckert was willing to forego getting Richardson?
Well, the thing Heckert had said all along is that "they were going to get a good player at 4" even "guaranteeing" he wouldn't trade up, but might trade back a few picks. The comments I'm talking about from Holmgren are at 27:30 in case you are interested.
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It's hard taking Heckert, or any other talking head of an organization, at their word, especially right before the draft.
If it keeps other teams guessing, I want them lying through their teeth. What I DON'T want is the Walrus telling Heckert and the world that it's his draft to conduct...right until the Walrus decides he's going to step in and force his will upon things. That kind of micromanagement seldom ever creates success. In fact, that kind of thinking gave us McCoy, which has now been branded a failure, not by us, but by the guy who threw his weight around to get him in the first place.
The bottom line is that it's become apparent the Walrus isn't letting Heckert run the show, as he stated he would. That makes me very, VERY uncomfortable, because Heckert has a greater track record of success as an executive.
I'm nervous. We could be 16-games away from another regime change, and much of that hinges on the production of a 29-year old rookie QB who comes from a college spread offense...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I kind of see what you're saying, but I think Mike should have his input, he's being paid a lot of money to see this thing through.
I'm sure his fingerprints were all over this Weeden pick. I know Mike said that Heckert had to convince him to get out of their pick last year to acquire what would be Brandon Weeden.
I just don't want a regime change. If this thing falls flat, Weeden is a bust, and we're at 4-5 wins again, I don't think Heckert should lose his job.
Nobody wants to think about that right now. I'm trying to stay positive. I think Weeden is going to have some things working for him this year that Colt didn't last year, a full offseason, additions to the offensive line, an elite running back prospect behind him... A coach with a full year under his belt who may have actually seen it all in one year.
It just has to work this time.
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If you watch the way the Shurmur, who usually gets about as excited at press conferences as a 90 year old blind guy at a dead turtle race, talk about Weeden, I think that he really, really wanted the guy. He was as close to giddy as I have seen him at any time since he showed up in Cleveland.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,395
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,395 |
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who usually gets about as excited at press conferences as a 90 year old blind guy at a dead turtle race
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 295
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 295 |
Mike should have all sorts of input. He should let Heckert know his thoughts on everything. Then, when the draft starts, he should STFU and sit quietly unless Heckert asks him for his advice.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
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If you watch the way the Shurmur, who usually gets about as excited at press conferences as a 90 year old blind guy at a dead turtle race, talk about Weeden, I think that he really, really wanted the guy. He was as close to giddy as I have seen him at any time since he showed up in Cleveland.
Yeah, I noticed that too.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,554
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,554 |
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Holmgren himself alluded as much about 75%-80% into the 4/28 presser, right before calling shurmur "the peacemaker." I got the feeling shurmur wasn't big on the move either.
That was included in what I read....Shurmer was acting as peace maker. It wasn't that they were bickering or anything like that....just Heck not wanting to move up or take Weeden at 22 unless he was told to make the moves.
I think I agree with Homie. The word out there is the Vikes did have offers and moving up was the only way to get Richardson, and he was the target at that pick
Everybody was also in agreement Weeden was the guy we wanted, we just differed on when to take him. I have a feeling Weeden wouldn't have lasted until our next pick. Someone in the next 14 oe so picks would have taken him.
Even if not, this shows how shaken the team was about blowing the RGIII deal. They were determined to get nearly every player they had targeted...there was no way to move up for Wright, so they had to wait that out. Once he got snapped up a few picks before us, we just moved every round up starting with the Hughes pick.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
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I think I agree with Homie. The word out there is the Vikes did have offers and moving up was the only way to get Richardson, and he was the target at that pick
I don't know to believe that the Vikes had other offers on the table for the #3 pick, but I do know this: The Rams desperately wanted a wide receiver. They traded back to #6 rather certain they'd land Blackmon, but the Jags moved up to get their guy. The Jags won, and the Rams lost. So the Rams moved again. They thought they had their hands all over Floyd, only to have the team in front of them AGAIN steal the WR out from under them.
When you also factor in how we lost out on the guy we really wanted, in spite of the fact we had more firepower than the 'Skins, we couldn't afford to end up...like the Rams.
Lastly, no team is going to carry 13 draft picks. We had to burn the picks somehow, and I feel that using them to guarantee your guy is a small price to pay.
I've become increasingly critical of The Walrus as time has marched on, and (of course ) IMHO it's very justified. However, I'm perfectly good with this move. Spend the extra picks to get the guy you wanted. And in case anyone thinks I feel that way because of how loudly I banged the drum for Richardson, I'd have the same opinion of the Jags if they "overpaid" to get Blackmon.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 295
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 295 |
Quote:
The Rams desperately wanted a wide receiver. They traded back to #6 rather certain they'd land Blackmon, but the Jags moved up to get their guy. The Jags won, and the Rams lost. So the Rams moved again. They thought they had their hands all over Floyd, only to have the team in front of them AGAIN steal the WR out from under them.
When you also factor in how we lost out on the guy we really wanted, in spite of the fact we had more firepower than the 'Skins, we couldn't afford to end up...like the Rams.
Couldn't have been happier to watch the Rams/Skins trade bite the Rams where the sun don't shine.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Scouting Tom Heckert
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