A 3rd round QB is almost always going to be a backup. Very few make it to being a long term starter.
They drafted Colt with the hopes that he could buck the odds. In the end, the weaknesses in his game that led to him dropping in the draft to the 3rd round were his downfall. That doesn't mean that he can't be a decent backup ... especially if we get the team to the point where we have the running game going strong, and get the defense solidified. If that happens, then we can run gameplans like we did against the Saints and Patriots, where the Browns can pick spots to throw in favorable situations, and can maybe steal a win with the backup QB if we have to.
I disagree that it is some fait accompli that Weeden will miss time this year. He is a strong, well built guy. He's not a small framed guy. Further, he gets rid of the ball quickly. He doesn't hold the ball in the pocket for way too long. He also has an understanding of how to move in the pocket. Add in the fact that the OL should be hugely improved this year, and that we will be able to run the ball very well, and I don't see any reason to expect that Weeden will have to miss time. (knock on wood)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
agreed with that! I see some reasons to keep him, but I think he has blown his chances. I consider Weeden an upgrade in many areas, especially if Chilly calls an aggressive game and about triples Shurmy's "output" this season. He is a starter; it is awward. But I MUCH prefer Colt to Seneca, and for better money. Expect some wins from the starter. But I think I saw Weeden's name on a jersey. So that must be all of it right theere.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
Quote: Keeping him is a horrible idea. It just feeds the fire.
I'd simply let him go if I couldn't convince someone to give me a conditional 5th rounder for the guy.
Afraid of a little competition?
Look, What if Colt comes and blows Weeden out of the water? do you still want weeden to start?
Let it play out..
Not at all. I am tired of split forces when it comes to our QB.
Here is a tip....no matter what happens in camp, unless he gets hurt, Weeden is the guy. The competition was over the minute they drafted the guy at #22.
Shoot, it was over when we went after RGIII.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
*shaking my head* I just don't get some people's opinion on this. Do we want the Browns team to improve, or do we want to try to impress fickle fans, and the media? Wallace is no better than McCoy, his me, me, me attitude sucks, and he makes more $$$ Than McCoy, throw in the fact that he is not going to improve at this point in his career, and it makes ZERO sense to keep him over Colt. If the front office is doing their job the will do everything they can to improve the team on the field, and ignore some crybaby fans and media members.
I hope Weeden can master the art of throwing the ball away to the sideline any time he faces pressure, like Marino used to do. In today's game that would just frustrate the defenders and cause alot of " ticky tack" fouls for head touches and such. This would come in handy vs the Pitts.
McCoy may be better along with his time in the WCO, so he may be more adept at where to go with the ball when, but eventually we are going to get to see whether Weeden has " it".
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Quote: Look, What if Colt comes and blows Weeden out of the water?
The Browns will not allow that to happen.
And if that happens, then we wasted a first round pick.
Weeden is going to be given every chance to start and work through any struggles. McCoy had his time as starter.
I doubt they even have a competition in camp.
THen the Browns are idiots.. They gotta put the best guy on the field. Like you, I think therer is very little chance that Colt starts another game. But if he comes in and totally blows Weeden out of the water and they still put weeden in,,, they should all be fired.. simple as that..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: Make Weeden earn it. If he's as good as the FO thinks he is, it will be obvious in camp that he should be the starter.
100 % agree.....Thats one of our problems with QB here, we hand over starting jobs at QB were so desperate to find the next Bernie or Brian sipe were willing to hand over the starting job to anybody who the media says can throw a football, I agree, Weeden better be the starter after drafting him at # 22, but if he dosent earn it, sit his butt down
Quote: Add in the fact that the OL should be hugely improved this year, and that we will be able to run the ball very well, and I don't see any reason to expect that Weeden will have to miss time. (knock on wood)
YT...might want to back off a little on those sky high expectations for this offensive line.
The Browns drafted a RT, which should upgrade that position, in time, but he will still play like a rookie until he gains experience.
Also, the RT is not going to fix the performance of the OGs. Only hard work and the desire to get better, beginning with the weight room in the offseason, is going to improve the play of the Browns OGs.
If either Pinkston or Lauvao fail to do the hard work, they could lose their job to a rookie, Ryan Miller.
There will be more pressure on this offensive line than ever before, with the addition of Trent Richardson and Brandon Weeden. Neither of these two will perform to their potential if the offensive line does not run block and pass protect.
Wow, looks like a lot of pre-emptive excuse making for Weeden going on in this thread... When/If Weeden starts on day 1 this season he will have already had more time and prep in this system than Colt did when he stepped on the field week 1 last year, he will have better weapons at his disposal, most of his supporting cast will be in their second year in the system, and he will only have a handful fewer NFL starts.
If Weeden hasn't clearly separated himself by about week 6 then we have a problem. I'm not saying he has to be winning a bunch of games but if you can't watch the offense and just tell that we are in a better place, then something is seriously wrong.
Quote: Wow, looks like a lot of pre-emptive excuse making for Weeden going on in this thread... When/If Weeden starts on day 1 this season he will have already had more time and prep in this system than Colt did when he stepped on the field week 1 last year, he will have better weapons at his disposal, most of his supporting cast will be in their second year in the system, and he will only have a handful fewer NFL starts.
If Weeden hasn't clearly separated himself by about week 6 then we have a problem. I'm not saying he has to be winning a bunch of games but if you can't watch the offense and just tell that we are in a better place, then something is seriously wrong.
Oh I agree with ya on those points.
I think its fair to say that it's a foregone conclusion that Weeden will get the reps in camp and will have every opportunity to show he's the guy.
I also think that if he falters, the Browns will stay with him if for no other reason than to allow him more time to learn and improve.
Now the really neat thing about that is, McCoy (should he remain with the team and I'm of the opinion he should) will finally get time to sit back, relax, learn and improve. Like it was supposed to be to begin with.
He might actually end up better for it.
As for me, I wanna win, so I don't care who the QB is.. they could bring back Otto Graham from the dead if they think that's the answer for all I care... LOL
I'm just tired of looking inept.. time to fix it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: Wow, looks like a lot of pre-emptive excuse making for Weeden going on in this thread... When/If Weeden starts on day 1 this season he will have already had more time and prep in this system than Colt did when he stepped on the field week 1 last year, he will have better weapons at his disposal, most of his supporting cast will be in their second year in the system, and he will only have a handful fewer NFL starts.
If Weeden hasn't clearly separated himself by about week 6 then we have a problem. I'm not saying he has to be winning a bunch of games but if you can't watch the offense and just tell that we are in a better place, then something is seriously wrong.
Oh I agree with ya on those points.
I think its fair to say that it's a foregone conclusion that Weeden will get the reps in camp and will have every opportunity to show he's the guy.
I also think that if he falters, the Browns will stay with him if for no other reason than to allow him more time to learn and improve.
Now the really neat thing about that is, McCoy (should he remain with the team and I'm of the opinion he should) will finally get time to sit back, relax, learn and improve. Like it was supposed to be to begin with.
He might actually end up better for it.
As for me, I wanna win, so I don't care who the QB is.. they could bring back Otto Graham from the dead if they think that's the answer for all I care... LOL
I'm just tired of looking inept.. time to fix it.
And when Father Time retires Colt will still have a few years left. ;-)
Quote: Wow, looks like a lot of pre-emptive excuse making for Weeden going on in this thread... When/If Weeden starts on day 1 this season he will have already had more time and prep in this system than Colt did when he stepped on the field week 1 last year, he will have better weapons at his disposal, most of his supporting cast will be in their second year in the system, and he will only have a handful fewer NFL starts.
If Weeden hasn't clearly separated himself by about week 6 then we have a problem. I'm not saying he has to be winning a bunch of games but if you can't watch the offense and just tell that we are in a better place, then something is seriously wrong.
Oh I agree with ya on those points.
I think its fair to say that it's a foregone conclusion that Weeden will get the reps in camp and will have every opportunity to show he's the guy.
I also think that if he falters, the Browns will stay with him if for no other reason than to allow him more time to learn and improve.
Now the really neat thing about that is, McCoy (should he remain with the team and I'm of the opinion he should) will finally get time to sit back, relax, learn and improve. Like it was supposed to be to begin with.
He might actually end up better for it.
As for me, I wanna win, so I don't care who the QB is.. they could bring back Otto Graham from the dead if they think that's the answer for all I care... LOL
I'm just tired of looking inept.. time to fix it.
And when Father Time retires Colt will still have a few years left. ;-)
Well, if it works out that way,,, I mean if the stars align just like that, then we are still set for 10 years.. Isn't that about the most you can reasonably expect from a QB anyway? with exceptions like Payton Manning and Brett Favre of course.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: Look, What if Colt comes and blows Weeden out of the water?
The Browns will not allow that to happen.
And if that happens, then we wasted a first round pick.
Weeden is going to be given every chance to start and work through any struggles. McCoy had his time as starter.
I doubt they even have a competition in camp.
THen the Browns are idiots.. They gotta put the best guy on the field. Like you, I think therer is very little chance that Colt starts another game. But if he comes in and totally blows Weeden out of the water and they still put weeden in,,, they should all be fired.. simple as that..
McCoy had to know what was going to happen late last season. He smelled up the place, as did our receivers, and nobody is going to risk their career on a guy like that. Any discussion of Colt McCoy as a starting quarterback were answered in 2011. He's a third rounder who's going to make a half million a year as a second string quarterback in the NFL. I expect him to embrace that role because that's the way it is.
I think Wallace is going away. Given his contract I'm not sure they'll be able to trade him off. Wallace couldn't even take McCoy's postion, so he's obviously expendable. My bet is any team that had an interest in him would be willing to gamble on us cutting him. I had high hopes for him but it never worked out so well.
Weeden? Who knows? Maybe he'll work out, maybe not. I suspect if it weren't for his age there would be a lot more folks excited about him. We'll see how he handles the NFL soon enough. I can't see how he could possibly do worse than what we've called the starter for the last several years. If he stinks it up then we'll have to draft another one next year. He was the best quarterback available for that draft pick so he's what we got.
I don't care who the quarterback is. If McCoy comes on strong and is just flatly dominating the camp then maybe he'll get the start, and he would probably deserve it. If he can make a strong enough case that we don't have to go back to the well for yet another QB in the draft then I'm OK with that. Problem is I just don't see McCoy being able to overcome the baggage of 2011 to make that case.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
Quote: I suspect if it weren't for his age there would be a lot more folks excited about him.
While true, his age is not a concern of mine. His age means he'll have a shorter career, which only comes into play in a conversation of value versus where he was taken in the draft. However, my own personal concerns revolve around how skittish he is in the pocket when faced with pressure, and his background in the very same college offense that duped the Browns into taking Colt McCoy.
Removing his age as a factor still leaves several other issues for me.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: I suspect if it weren't for his age there would be a lot more folks excited about him.
While true, his age is not a concern of mine. His age means he'll have a shorter career, which only comes into play in a conversation of value versus where he was taken in the draft. However, my own personal concerns revolve around how skittish he is in the pocket when faced with pressure, and his background in the very same college offense that duped the Browns into taking Colt McCoy.
Removing his age as a factor still leaves several other issues for me.
I hear you loud and clear on the issue of handling pressure.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
Quote: The Browns drafted a RT, which should upgrade that position, in time, but he will still play like a rookie until he gains experience.
If he plays like a lost rookie that will still be a 50 percent improvement over last years RT's
Quote: Also, the RT is not going to fix the performance of the OGs. Only hard work and the desire to get better, beginning with the weight room in the offseason, is going to improve the play of the Browns OGs.
Experience is also going to improve the Guards, along with playing with the same guys next to them for another season.
Quote: If either Pinkston or Lauvao fail to do the hard work, they could lose their job to a rookie, Ryan Miller.
Desperation is a wonderful motivator. It's right up there with hunger, physical pain, and humiliation. It's all about finding the right button to punch for a particular individual.
For a half million a year I'd sure as shooting show up for work every day.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
Quote: and his background in the very same college offense that duped the Browns into taking Colt McCoy.
Oklahoma State's offense was ran much differently than Texas.
Texas would keep the ball close to the line then occasionally hit out for a long pass. Oklahoma State would throw the same short slants, but they were not afraid to go deep at any point. They ran many more post routes over the middle and 15 yard outs.
I think if you watched them both play in college, you'd see a noticeable difference in their arm and the way coaches gameplanned for their QB's.
I was speaking more in terms of the college spread exclusively out of the shotgun as opposed to specifics of the offense. Sure, one spread is not the same as another, as exemplified by RG3's offense which was tops in terms of bubble-screens, but the common denominator in all spreads are simplified routes and route-combinations.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
I don't think the spread plays a huge difference in how a QB plays. Just because he's sitting in the shotgun and making quick reads doesn't mean he cannot drop back and make quick reads.
I don't see his college offense being a huge problem. His mechanics and bravery are a much bigger concern.
Let it play out ..I don't care what round someone drafted in .. Just want " W's " on the board .. Shoot I would have tried to trade Cribbs for a draft choice if I was running thing
Ok, Toad, maybe you can explain something to me that seems fairly counterintuitive... if the spread is composed of simplified routes and simplified combinations of routes, how does it result in players running wide open and these huge throwing windows that I hear about?
Quote: Ok, Toad, maybe you can explain something to me that seems fairly counterintuitive... if the spread is composed of simplified routes and simplified combinations of routes, how does it result in players running wide open and these huge throwing windows that I hear about?
Maybe I can, and maybe I can't. I suppose it comes down to whether or not I can be articulate enough, or if I'm going to solidify my reputation as a profound blowhard.
First and foremost, the theory of the spread works in practice for the same reasons the Run and Shoot worked in theory and practice at the college level: You spread out the defenses with receivers, where the defense doesn't have the firepower to keep up with the offensive speed.
I'll use the R&S as the example because it allows me to use the size of their receivers to make a point...
In today's NFL, size in a receiver is viewed as a critical component to success. However, the R&S allowed small, even tiny, receivers to thrive due to the spaces created by the fundamental results of spreading defenses out and attacking them with more speed than they possess. Not only could college receivers be smaller, the Houston Oilers even employed a roster filled with guys that wouldn't make CFL rosters due to their size, yet they excelled. Had the Oilers defense not collapsed against Frank Reich they'd have been in the Super Bowl.
So the reason I mention this is to establish that the process of spreading defenses out by itself creates space for receivers, which eliminates the need for complex route combinations and difficult NFL-style routes. Simplifying this even more, receivers have more speed than defensive backs which makes it easier for them to break open in space.
Now let me back this up a bit and talk again about the complex route combinations that we all know the NFL uses. We know that defenses in the NFL are talented enough to at least moderately handle most offenses. The game has been tilted towards the offensive side so much that the great offenses will almost always overcome defenses, but that goes beyond the scope of this topic. But what about the simplified routes I mentioned? In the R&S receivers ran more options routes than complex routes structures. They simply made a read on the defender they were playing and ran the route according to how that player was positioned. The QB made the same simple read and played a short version of pitch-and-catch.
Nice. Tidy. Neat.
The spread isn't that much different in terms of structure. Simple slants, hooks, and screens are made easy because of the amount of space given to receivers by slower defensive players.
Now to the NFL. It's FAR harder to create those spaces because, put in the most simplistic terms, defensive speed is much closer to offensive speed.
So, in trying to keep this short and simple, the very basic reason routes can be kept simple in college is because the discrepancy between offensive speed and defensive speed allows easier routes to succeed. In the NFL, those concepts don't work, so it takes more advanced routes and route combinations to beat defenses. Wanna score points in college? Just let your QB stand in the shotgun and play what is, in effect, almost flag-football because defenses have a very difficult time stopping it.
Really, there aren't many differences in the R&S and so-called "Air Raid" offenses of today. They are built on WR screens, short crosses, and pick plays. In the NFL, these concepts are much harder to execute, so more complex concepts are required. If they are harder to execute, they take longer to develop and for the QB to make the throws, and if it takes longer, the NFL defensive talent has the speed to get to the QB and knock him out of the game. All that results in a more conventional offense being required for the vast majority of teams.
Super-short and sweet: College defenses don't have the firepower to match up with college receivers which opens up huge passing windows. Those windows don't exist in the NFL.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Yeah, but these days NFL teams try to spread out defenses to create better mismatches ....... which is the main purpose of running the spread in college.
NFL teams run hurry up .... or huddle at the line ..... so that the defense can't substitute ......
I have been watching a lot of Weeden videos over the course of the past week or so, and he is a pretty damn good QB from what I have seen. He is remarkable quick at getting the ball out, especially when under pressure. I thought that his OL was pretty good looking just at stats and such, but they allowed a fair amount of pressure. (and part of that, to be fair, was because they ran a lot of 4 and 5 receiver patterns) He was often very quick and decisive with the ball almost immediately after the snap.
He also did a great job of looking off the Safety on a number of his deep throws. It was almost unfair on some plays where he would fake a screen to the RB, then fire the ball deep to a receiver breaking open down the middle. I honestly don't know how many of the other throws were to his 1st read, but man, he gets the ball gone fast when he needs to a lot of the time. There were some jailbreaks right up the middle of his protection where he had the ball gone half a second before the rush could get to him.
He does make some boneheaded plays on occasion, and he does trust his arm too much on occasion. To me the latter isn't a huge fault, because I'd rather work to rein in a guy with too much confidence in his ability to make throws than to try and get a timid guy to suddenly take a few chances.
Anyway ..... for more teams, the spread is a simple, roll out/cut the field in half/use simpler reads type of offense. I didn't really see a ton of that in Oklahoma State's offense. I did see a lot of quick read/throw at the snap .... which is, ideally, what a WCO QB should do.
I think that Weeden is going to do well in the WCO.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
so what happens in 2 years if the Browns go 9-23 and the offense is averaging under 20 pts a game? are they gonna get kick Weeden to the curb? I will say this for all the dysfunction the Browns offense showed in 2011,Colt McCoy managed to improve his TD to INT ratio. It went from a -3 to a +3. And this was with no running game,and the worst set of WRs in the NFL and a head coach that couldn't play call if his life depended on it. In fact there was a time last year where Colt McCoy threw for 10 TDS and 5 INT. thats respectable on any level. 20 starts isn't long enough to judge a QB esp. when have the garbage that surrounded McCoy last year. I will say Weeden is coming into a much better enviroment then McCoy did.
His accuracy is not special by any means. He seldom looked off anybody. He loves to dump off. The team ran so many w.r. screens......
I hope I'm wrong, but I think you're going to be disappointed this year - well, better put, your expectations probably aren't going to be even close to being met.
Colt's done for as far as a starter for the Browns. It's the Weeden show now. We'll find out in a few short months how the Weeden show goes.
Oh, I've also watched a lot of tape on Weeden over the last week.
They did run WR screens .... just like the majority of college teams do. However, he also threw the ball down the field quite a bit as well.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
The Browns offense will be closer to my numbers than yours. 40 points....almost impossible in this day and age. especially when the Browns best offensive threat is a rookie RB. thats sad right there in itself.
Quote: The Browns offense will be closer to my numbers than yours. 40 points....almost impossible in this day and age. especially when the Browns best offensive threat is a rookie RB. thats sad right there in itself.
hmmm. Perhaps a few batteries in the old sarcasm detector are in order. My point was that if he completely sucks and the Browns completely suck, then of course they would dump him in 2 years. Just like if he is completely awesome and the Browns are completely awesome, then of course the Browns would sign him to an extension in 2 years (perhaps 3 if he's on a 5yr deal).
I just don't get why you see the need to state the obvious, so I sarcastically stated the other side of the obvious back at you.
Quote: Maybe I can, and maybe I can't. I suppose it comes down to whether or not I can be articulate enough, or if I'm going to solidify my reputation as a profound blowhard.
Quote: With Weeden's lack of mobility it's probibly just a matter of time.
I'm going to assume you've never REALLY watched Weeden play for an extended period of time...
Does he have the wheels of a Mike Vick? Of course not...
Is he a statue like DA was? Hardly...
I think one of the things he has on McCoy from what I've seen is his pocket movements, and ability to FEEL the pressure, he doesn't run from it (or into it) he side steps and throws...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
Quote: It's amazing what having receivers that go get the ball will do for a team - receivers that not only go get it, but actually catch it.
Or, was it all DA?
ytown may have a stroke watching that.
Every single throw in the video - with the exception of the diving catch by BE against Cinci - was just awesome. Not really sure what you are watching if you think the receivers were bailing DA out. That couldn't be more fabricated. What was it you told YTown ... you see what you want to see ... LOL. Gimme a break.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
Man, I really thought we caught lightning in bottle with DA. I remember after the Cinci game I thought that season was going to be special. I remember talking to my cousin the morning before Game 4 and we both said we felt good about beating the Ravens, and it was really no contest. If only we could have made the playoffs that year.
And watching BE, I shake my head all the time at that waste of talent. Guy could have really been something special.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Do we want the Browns team to improve, or do we want to try to impress fickle fans, and the media? Wallace is no better than McCoy, his me, me, me attitude sucks, and he makes more $$$ Than McCoy, throw in the fact that he is not going to improve at this point in his career, and it makes ZERO sense to keep him over Colt. If the front office is doing their job the will do everything they can to improve the team on the field, and ignore some crybaby fans and media members.
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