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I just find it interesting so many people thing it'll hurt him mentally if he struggles early... I just think with all he's been through this kid is much stronger mentally than that... I expect him to struggle a bit (as I'm sure he does too) but I don't see it hurting his confidence at all.
Personally, i'd be shocked if he didn't struggle early on. Few haven't. Marino comes to mind.. but that's about it.
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Tim Rattay
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quarterback guru.
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Quote:
Quote:
Tim Rattay
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quarterback guru.
What's he done since he left the NFL to be classified as a Guru? Has he worked with some guys that have shown great promise?
Anyway,, sometimes those that can do, Do,,, those that can't, Teach..
#GMSTRONG
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I dunno about Rattay .... but Kosar and Tresman are sold on Weeden ...... and that's worth a bit more in my eyes.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
Tim Rattay
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quarterback guru.
No reason he isn't...just because he wasn't a gifted NFL QB at 6'1 190 doesn't mean he isn't a brilliant football mind.
Trent Dilfer was by most accounts a 90% failure and a full-of-himself douchebag, but he's a great football mind which I respect immensely as an analyst.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Trent Dilfer was by most accounts a 90% failure and a full-of-himself douchebag, but he's a great football mind which I respect immensely as an analyst.
That explains a lot 
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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I dunno about Rattay .... but Kosar and Tresman are sold on Weeden ...... and that's worth a bit more in my eyes.
They both carry more weight for me than Rattay. But I don't want to beat on Rattay., for all I know, he's demonstrated his skills as a teacher of QB's in some fashion.. I truly don't know. His was not a career I've followed at all.
#GMSTRONG
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Browns grabbed their QB, but who will he throw to?35By Marc Sessler NFL.com
Writer
Published: May 3, 2012 at 01:55 p.m. Updated: May 6, 2012 at 12:33 p.m. Print Friend(s) Email Your Email Send Email By Marc Sessler NFL.com Football on the outs?'Mr. Irrelevant' no more?More Columns > 253 draft picks taken over the weekend transformed NFL rosters in a matter of days. Around the League will examine the aftershocks by asking one post-draft burning question for all 32 teams. So far, we've tackled the Jets, Jaguars, Dolphins, Colts, Raiders, Bills, Patriots and Chargers.
Did Cleveland solve longstanding QB issues with the Weeden pick?
The Cleveland Browns went for it in last week's draft. After trading up one spot for running back Trent Richardson at No. 3, the team used the 22nd overall pick on quarterback Brandon Weeden.
Draft fallout
Around the League examines the aftershocks of the 2012 NFL Draft with one burning question for each team:
AFC East
• Bills | Dolphins | Jets | Patriots
AFC North
• Bengals | Browns | Ravens | Steelers
AFC South
• Colts | Jaguars | Texans | Titans
AFC West
• Broncos | Chargers | Chiefs | Raiders
NFC East
• Cowboys | Eagles | Giants | Redskins
NFC North
• Bears | Lions | Packers | Vikings
NFC South
• Buccaneers | Falcons | Panthers | Saints
NFC West
• 49ers | Cardinals | Rams | Seahawks
After months of guarded praise for Colt McCoy (amid whispers he's in their dog house), the Browns are once again rebooting the machine at quarterback -- but will it work?
It remains to be seen to whom the rookie quarterback will throw. After the Browns selected Richardson and Weeden, many expected the team to upgrade its abysmal receiving corps. The failure to do so remains a baffling footnote to an otherwise solid haul.
With wide receivers Stephen Hill, Alshon Jefferey, Ryan Broyles and Reuben Randle still on the board in the second round, Cleveland instead addressed a need at right tackle with the addition of Mitchell Schwartz. Fair enough.
What happened next led to hundreds of remote controls being launched at television sets along the shores of Lake Erie. With the receiver class shrinking at a rapid clip, the Browns selected defensive tackle John Hughes with the 87th pick. Hughes was as surprised as we were and later admitted he didn't expect to be drafted -- at least not anywhere near No. 87.
The Browns finally grabbed speedster Travis Benjamin in the fourth round, but it's almost as if the rival Cincinnati Bengals -- taking receivers Mohamed Sanu and Marvin Jones -- stole Cleveland's playbook. Coach Pat Shurmur was quizzed about the decision-making.
"An outstanding quarterback brings synergy to the whole team. Just like the addition of a running back helps the quarterback," Shurmur told the Akron Beacon Journal. "If a quarterback that throws the ball accurately, on time, makes the receivers looks good. Receivers that make circus catches or make the hard catches make the quarterback look good. When the quarterback has a little bit more time to throw it, because the line is doing their job, it makes everything look good. I think that it is all connected, I really do."
The Browns spent last season telling the world their young wideouts were prepared to break out. Instead, they led the NFL in drops and made life impossible for McCoy. Weeden's size and arm strength are long overdue for the Browns in the AFC North, but the question remains: Who will he throw to?
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82...HP11_hot_topics
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Damanshot
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Seriously. The Shotgun snap vs snaps under center. How much of a learning curve can there be to learn to take snaps from under center when you have largley or even entirely been taking snaps from the shotgun.
Under Center, the center hands the ball to the Qb on the snap. In the Shotgun it is a form of a throw or pitch.
Seriously, dropping back, with shoulders parallel to the sideline, or Not, or a 3 step drop, a 5 step drop. How long does that take to learn.
Shoot this is USA, these are football players, do you think they've never practiced that?
It can't be completley foreign to them. These aren't sumo wrestlers trying to play runningback .
The WCO, the terminology, the reads, the progressions, the thinking the same thing as the wr as to which way to anticipate he's going to break, are going to take time to learn.
How long should it take to learn to drop back from center?
About 3 afternoons?
I don't understand the arguement people have that it should be a problem.
Just a general thought.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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How hard can it be?
Many great college QB's could never get it down.
For the record, there's sooooo much more to it than getting the ball...then throwing it. When you come from the shotgun in college, it's literally a different kind of game. It's flag-football versus tackle...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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For me, the bottom line is if Weeden doesn't make it as a NFL QB, it won't be because he can't take snaps under center, so I won't worry about that.
Plus, it's a simple fix. If he truly can't play under center and get the footwork of the drop back, don't play him under center. Part of being a good coach is adjusting what you do to put your players in to a better position to succeed.
I think everybody understands that failure isn't a option here and they aren't going to allow a faulty drop-back to be a sticking point.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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With Richardson lined up behind him he will have to work under center.
"Nobody in football should be called a genius. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein" ~Joe Theismann~
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Weeden could always learn Bernie's funky half-foot drop back if he is truly that immobile.
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Big 12 coaches skeptical of Weeden's poise under pressurePosted by Evan Silva on May 6, 2012, 4:46 PM EDT The Browns are expected to start No. 22 overall pick Brandon Weeden as a rookie, but they won’t get a good feel for Weeden’s pro readiness until the bullets start flying. While Weeden draws high marks for arm strength and accuracy — which surely will translate beautifully to the practice field — the 28-year-old’s ability to sustain effectiveness under pressure is a potential stumbling block. NFL Films guru Greg Cosell saw some struggles under pressure on Weeden’s game tape, and in interviews with the Cleveland Plain Dealer, Big 12 coaches who faced Weeden in college said they noticed the same thing. “He got quick feet. He got nervous,” observed Iowa State defensive coordinator Wally Burnham, whose Cyclones defeated Weeden’s Oklahoma State Cowboys in the 2011 regular season finale. “He really threw the ball away in a hurry. I’m not saying he was scared, he just wanted to get the ball out to his hot receiver.” Former Oklahoma defensive coordinator Brent Venables, now on Clemson’s staff, faced Weeden twice in college and similarly surmised that Weeden’s ability, or inability, to improve under duress will indicate his career path. “The challenge in the NFL,” said Venables, “will be when the pocket’s collapsing.” Weeden played behind a solid offensive line at Oklahoma State, and in a Big 12 conference that generated inconsistent to poor pass rush. His highlight reels largely consist of throws made from a clean pocket. Weeden may be in for a rude awakening in the NFL.
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I guess some of you Brandon Weeden critics missed this, so I thought that it needed repeating. Quote:
After his college season, Weeden worked extensively on his drop-back footwork with Rattay and QB specialist Marc Trestman for three months to prepare for the Senior Bowl, the NFL Combine and his pro day at Oklahoma State in March, which Browns coach Pat Shurmur and quarterbacks coach Mark Whipple attended.
It sounds easy, taking the snap and dropping back three to five yards while adjusting to the defense and anticipating your receivers' moves, but it's not. Rattay, whose father, Jim, coached Elyria Catholic to two state football championships, said Weeden showed dramatic improvement from the day they started working with him to his pro day.
"It looked like he'd been under center his whole career," he said.
Rattay said he and Whipple spoke about Weeden at the pro day for about 15 minutes. They talked about his work ethic, what kind of person he is and, of course, his footwork under center.
"It just didn't take [Weeden] long to where he looked really comfortable doing it," Rattay said.
As for his ability to escape a pass rush, throw on the run and keep drives alive with his feet, Weeden didn't think the criticism about his mobility was fair or accurate.
"To be honest, I think I throw the ball just as well, if not better, on the run than I do in the pocket," Weeden said. "It's just something that wasn't really asked of me at Oklahoma State."
Sounds like he is a quick study. I am not concerned with his ability to learn the pro QB position.
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Let's see ...... Weeden and Oklahoma State put up 31 against Iowa State in 2011, and 41 against Oklahoma in 2010 in the 2 losses referred to in the article ........ (plus 44 against Oklahoma in 2011) The 41 allowed by Oklahoma in 2010 was the most the allowed all year long. Iowa State played OSU the day of a tragedy, when a coach for one of the other sports at OSU was killed in a plane crash. I dunno if I would put a ton of credence in the words of a guy who lucked into the death of someone at the school, or a coach who allowed 85 points in 2 encounters as gospel. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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To be fair, the fact that they weren't successful in capitalizing on it doesn't mean they didn't notice it. I'm sure our coaching staff noticed some holes in the Steelers defense that could be exploited last year.. the fact that we weren't good enough to capitalize on them doesn't mean they weren't there.
yebat' Putin
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Fair enough.
However, the whole premise of the article was that these 2 defenses were the only 2 "good enough" to stop Brandon Weeden. In the 3 games against these 2 defenses in the past 2 years, Oklahoma State put up 116 points.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Fair enough.
However, the whole premise of the article was that these 2 defenses were the only 2 "good enough" to stop Brandon Weeden. In the 3 games against these 2 defenses in the past 2 years, Oklahoma State put up 116 points.
Texas made life miserable on Weeden by doing exactly what these coaches noted last year. Their offense wasn't good enough to capitalize though (and OkieState got a couple of lucky bounces - like Weeden stepping out of bounds by accident for a safety on a play he threw an INT-for-TD).
I hope that Weeden succeeds. I am fully in his corner and want him to start right away (because otherwise what is the point?), but let's not just mask the obvious flaws he has. He was a shotgun-pocket-only QB who struggled to make plays when there was pressure (so, he's not like RGIII or even Luck who would extend plays out of the pocket). Now, that doesn't mean he cannot be successful. Not by a long shot. But, let's not mask his weaknesses here.
#gmstrong
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And almost every young QB has weaknesses somewhere.
I think that the WCO, with quick reads and quick throws will help any potential problem in this area immensely. I should also say that quick throws don't have to be 3 yard throws. Bernie Kosar showed that throws can be made quickly, and still down the field. He would throw the ball sometimes right at the bottom of his drop, only to hit the receiver in stride, right in his hands, and often 15-20 (or more) yards downfield.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
From ‘fred2’:
A link to an article headlined “Big 12 coaches skeptical of Weeden’s poise under pressure.”
Our thoughts: That’s the $50 million headline. Surely H&H addressed this in their many talks about Weeden. Surely they concluded Weeden can be steeled into the man they want.
Surely we will not know until the weather turns cold.
You may recall this snippet from two months ago from Pro Football Weekly’s scouting report:
“Struggles to handle and escape pressure and has limited mobility to escape. Can be rattled by the rush. Does not like to be hit.”
• • •
(Against Big 12 opposition in 2011, Weeden’s team scored:
- 52 points against second-place Kansas State
- 59 points against third-place Baylor
- 44 points against third-place (tie) Oklahoma
- 45 points against fifth-place Missouri
- 30 points against sixth-place Texas A&M
- 31 points against eighth-place Iowa State in a 37-31 double-OT loss, the Cowboys’ only loss of the season.
Alternative headline: Scouts skeptical of Big 12 coaches)
link
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I agree.
and, among the strengths that Weeden has going for him is that OkieState did incorporate the WR-triangle routes that we ran last year. It's a grantland article(Oklahoma State and the Stick Concept), so I can't link to it, but it shows the similarity in at least a few of the basic WCO sets to what he did in college. Of course, from the shotgun instead of from under center. And, a pre-snap read instead of multiple post-snap reads, but still it's encouraging to see the concept a part of what he did.
#gmstrong
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Former Oklahoma defensive coordinator Brent Venables, now on Clemson’s staff, faced Weeden twice in college and similarly surmised that Weeden’s ability, or inability, to improve under duress will indicate his career path.
In two games against Venables D, Weeden and OSU put up more than 80 points. Sour grapes?
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2nd String
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Quote:
Former Oklahoma defensive coordinator Brent Venables, now on Clemson’s staff, faced Weeden twice in college and similarly surmised that Weeden’s ability, or inability, to improve under duress will indicate his career path.
In two games against Venables D, Weeden and OSU put up more than 80 points. Sour grapes?
While sour grapes is possible, it's unlikely. Rather than attack the person with the criticism (who was just responding to a question) how about acknowledging that Weeden has some issues to overcome.
Too many fans can't take their players being criticized. The criticism is valid, and not just by this guy. By many coaches, scouts, and players on this board. Weeden has some weakness he needs to address. He's not perfect.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Former Oklahoma defensive coordinator Brent Venables, now on Clemson’s staff, faced Weeden twice in college and similarly surmised that Weeden’s ability, or inability, to improve under duress will indicate his career path.
In two games against Venables D, Weeden and OSU put up more than 80 points. Sour grapes?
While sour grapes is possible, it's unlikely. Rather than attack the person with the criticism (who was just responding to a question) how about acknowledging that Weeden has some issues to overcome.
Too many fans can't take their players being criticized. The criticism is valid, and not just by this guy. By many coaches, scouts, and players on this board. Weeden has some weakness he needs to address. He's not perfect.
Well, see, thats the point of questioning the source,, He may, given the pounding his D took, may have a bit of an axe to grind.. That brings into question his objectivity.
It's like Grossi tweeting the stuff he did about Lerner.. At that point, he let the cat out of the bag about his personal feelings on the owner.. Now you have to question his objectivity.
Just something to think aboiut...
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Quote:
Quote:
Former Oklahoma defensive coordinator Brent Venables, now on Clemson’s staff, faced Weeden twice in college and similarly surmised that Weeden’s ability, or inability, to improve under duress will indicate his career path.
In two games against Venables D, Weeden and OSU put up more than 80 points. Sour grapes?
You bet your bottom dollar.
All of this is silly talk anyway.
Who can show me a QB who thrives under pressure? (Not to be confused with a blitz)
We like QB's who don't throw INT's or takes sacks under pressure/duress and gets rid of the ball in half a heart beat.
If the OL and others do their job ... This is a moot point. Isn't it though?
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Tom Brady is one of the worst QBs when you get pressure on him...
I'd settle for Tom Brady...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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All Qb's struggle when you get pressure on them.
The good ones find a way to avoid that pressure. Make sure the right protection is called, move in the pocket, quick release.
Sounds like these coaches were critiizing Weeden for getting rid of the ball quickly when they were pressuring him. What do they want him to do? Hold the ball and take the sack? I suppose they did.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Wasn't Weeden sacked FAR less than RG3?
QBs are passers 1st, everything else 2nd....somehow that's forgotten in those discussions...and why did we draft Thomas, Mack and Schwartz high again? Let them earn their money and deliver a clean pocket for the Jugs Machine
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Weeden is horrid under pressure. All he does is continue to drop deeper into the pocket or make a horrible throw off the back foot. Weeden really has a lot to work on because of his atrocious pocket presense and his complete lack of fundamentals under pressure. He forced throws to spots rather than throwing it away. Pretty much everytime pressure came on Weeden the result was a horrid throw off the back foot, a sack or an interception.
Weeden in 7 v 7 ball without a pass rush will be incredible. He can drop set a throw. He is comfortable as a pitcher, but when he has to move or adjust in the face of pressure, he just cannot do it.
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Quote:
Well, see, thats the point of questioning the source,, He may, given the pounding his D took, may have a bit of an axe to grind.. That brings into question his objectivity.
I suppose but it seems kind of backwards. If I'm a DC and another QB hangs 44 points on me, I'm not going to grind my axe by telling you how BAD he is or how he is weak in certain areas, that just makes me look WORSE... if another QB hangs 44 points on me, I'm going to tell you that he is unfreakin' stoppable and we played our butts off to just give up 44 and this guy deserves to be the first pick in the draft...... so it's not MY fault that we gave up 44. 
The implication is that if he wasn't shaky under pressure, he might have hung 60 on us. 
yebat' Putin
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This whole thread is hilarious.... thx yt & arch
I do agree with arch... weeden is not the answer.
Weeden does have major footwork and pressure issues to overcome. People want to keep putting his college stats up to support their arguement. The one stat I look at is that he went against some seriously horrible pass defenses. Any good college QB can excell by picking on the weak links. Especially, when you have a stud on the outside like Blackmon. I hope Weeden works out.... I really do. Wether he does or not, how long is his shelflife... 5? 6? years max? I just don't understand spending a 1st rd pick on a QB that needs a learning curve (all college QB's do). And as most of us know.... your body goes through some serious changes after 30 and Weeden is only 1 year away from that.
Whether he beats out McCoy for the starting job or not... I think this is a horrible move by our FO. I'd rather have Tannehill.... who i think is a bust then Weeden but atleast he has time to mature. Weeden doesn't have that luxury.
My bet is that McCoy competitiveness and work ethic lets him keep the starting job and Weeden never starts for the Browns. Ever.
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and Weeden never starts for the Browns. Ever.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Practice Squad
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Practice Squad
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how long is his shelflife... 5? 6? years max?
My bet is that McCoy competitiveness and work ethic lets him keep the starting job and Weeden never starts for the Browns. Ever.
Yes, because as we all know, the biggest problem the Browns have had at QB is signing them to that extension contract after they have fullfilled their first one 
Even if Weeden flails Akili Smith style in camp, OF COURSE at some point he's still gonna get a few starts this year, and at least into next year. Nobody has questioned McCoys heart, work ethic, or desire. The question has always been if he has the goods at this level.
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Legend
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Legend
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I understand that the Browns will have done their homework on this one, but NFL personnel teams are not infallible. I think the Browns got this wrong, badly wrong, and it is not going to do anything but hurt. It will eventually lead to guys being fired.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,303 Likes: 42
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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I understand that the Browns will have done their homework on this one, but NFL personnel teams are not infallible. I think the Browns got this wrong, badly wrong, and it is not going to do anything but hurt. It will eventually lead to guys being fired.
Well I hope not, even though I was ready to give up the tickets before the weeden pick.
Personally the weeden pick gives me hope and he's why I renwed my season tickets. Spending the gas money to watch Colt McCoy didn't seem much different than watching Frye. Yes we're going to suffer through INTs with Weeden but at least we have a gun slinger. And that is something I will pay to watch.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,588 Likes: 815
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,588 Likes: 815 |
And maybe you should plan to join up with some of us for a tailgate this season.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Well, see, thats the point of questioning the source,, He may, given the pounding his D took, may have a bit of an axe to grind.. That brings into question his objectivity.
I suppose but it seems kind of backwards. If I'm a DC and another QB hangs 44 points on me, I'm not going to grind my axe by telling you how BAD he is or how he is weak in certain areas, that just makes me look WORSE... if another QB hangs 44 points on me, I'm going to tell you that he is unfreakin' stoppable and we played our butts off to just give up 44 and this guy deserves to be the first pick in the draft...... so it's not MY fault that we gave up 44.
The implication is that if he wasn't shaky under pressure, he might have hung 60 on us.
Yeah,, maybe. But more often than not, you hear it the other way.
Last edited by Damanshot; 05/08/12 07:39 AM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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Jc.
1) what qb doesn't struggle under pressure? All of them do. It's up to the oline, fb, and rb to to block whoever is under center. Weeden has one thing to offset a team blitzing though, and that is his arm. Teams will have trouble against our offense.. if they blitz weeden can throw into 1 on 1 coverage. And even better now he can dump it off to TRich who has the ability to get big yards.
2) what's up with all the lack of mobility talk? Two of the best Qbs in the league are 10 times
slower.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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1) what qb doesn't struggle under pressure? All of them do.
It's not that simple.
Do all QB's have less success when pressured? Yes.
Do some QB's struggle more with pressure than others? THAT'S the foundation of the criticism.
Some QB's stand tall in the pocket and deliver strikes before they get popped in the mouth. Some QB's have the mental awareness to throw the ball away instead of throwing it up into a crowd of players when they sense they are going to get nailed.
Weeden struggles with pressure more than any of the "name" QB's in the 2012 draft. That was a criticism long before he was on our radar, and stands as one of the critical hurdles standing between him and success. Such a problem was also noted by McShay, who said...and I'm paraphrasing here...that of the top-7 QB's in this draft, Weeden graded out dead-last in terms of making smart plays when faced with pressure.
That's a bad sign.
We can sugar-coat spending the 22nd pick in the draft on a guy who will be 29 in his rookie season if we so desire, but Weeden has several issues he has to overcome. I'm ready for the season to start so I can see what progress he's made. It's hard for me to imagine Weeden making these great strides, strides that so few QB's are able to make as rookies...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Weeden think he'll be ready to
start right away
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