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Just clicking. Whats the point of increasing gun laws, it wont stop mass murders. If it were difficult to obtain guns, they would just do what criminals do in Europe. Blow everybody up with a bomb.
I dont know about any of you, but I would rather take my chances against a gun, because he may miss. But you have no chance at all against a bomb.
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j/c
I called it...
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gun-c...-193025148.html
Gun control surfaces in CT, VA Senate debates following Colorado shooting
Hilary Clinton said it - never waste a good crisis.
ONE person, ONE incident..... cause us to forget the tens of THOUSANDS that act responsibly, and it won't do anything at all to stop violent crime.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Quote:
j/c
I called it...
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/gun-c...-193025148.html
Gun control surfaces in CT, VA Senate debates following Colorado shooting
Hilary Clinton said it - never waste a good crisis.
ONE person, ONE incident..... cause us to forget the tens of THOUSANDS that act responsibly, and it won't do anything at all to stop violent crime.
So true and spot on the money. 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Well, if it ain't gun laws, then maybe we should just swallow our pride and ask the UK why their murder rate is a fifth of what ours is or Japan why theirs is a twentieth of what ours is... because it is completely ridiculous how much higher ours is compared to the rest of the stabilized world.
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i was wondering how long it would take these dopes to start talking about new gun control laws....what a joke....
the bigger joke is how many people think criminals follow the law.....These types of laws will do nothing but take away the means for honest people to defend themselves...
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I am curious how many people are killed in the UK and/or Japan as a result of violence using guns, knives, and other deadly weapons, compared to US crimes of the same types. I wonder how many total violent crimes with a weapon occur in those 2 countries compared to the US per population grouping. (Thousands, hundred thousands, etc) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...Africa-U-S.htmlAccording to this site, the UK's violent crime rate is highest in Europe, and higher than the US. (about 4 times higher then the rate in the US)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Well, if it ain't gun laws, then maybe we should just swallow our pride and ask the UK why their murder rate is a fifth of what ours is or Japan why theirs is a twentieth of what ours is... because it is completely ridiculous how much higher ours is compared to the rest of the stabilized world.
Maybe we should ask Switzerland and Finland (who have the least restrictive gun control in Europe) why their violent crime rate is half that of Great Britain?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Quote:
Well, if it ain't gun laws, then maybe we should just swallow our pride and ask the UK why their murder rate is a fifth of what ours is or Japan why theirs is a twentieth of what ours is... because it is completely ridiculous how much higher ours is compared to the rest of the stabilized world.
Maybe we should ask Switzerland and Finland (who have the least restrictive gun control in Europe) why their violent crime rate is half that of Great Britain?
meh...
I say we have harder criminal punishment... Commit a murder/shoot someone etc and it's not in self defense... That persons gets shot by a firing squad on live TV with their parents or closest kin watching (in person).
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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jc...
When I buy a ticket to see a movie, should I expect a reasonable level of security to protect me from being attacked by someone using a gun?
If the owners of the movie theater are not responsible for the safety of their paying guests, then I feel those paying guests should be allowed to protect themselves.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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One of those few times I agree with you.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Yeah but ....... is the theater owner responsible for searching each and every person who enters their theater?
Do we go to metal detectors, X-Ray scanners, and full body searches in order to just watch a movie?
If this guy can't get into the theater, does he just open fire in the parking lot? Is that the responsibility of the theater owner? How about if he just drives by and opens fire from the road?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think if the ownership of a business puts up a sign that tells the public they can't bring guns they have a permit to carry into their establishment, then you have a reasonable expectation they are going to provide you the personal security they are otherwise deciding you can't bring in yourself. I'm in the alarm business and a simple exit alarm would have stopped this entire mess. If the owner had just invested a couple of hundred bucks and put on that rear exit door an alarm that would sound if open, as soon as this man would have opened the door an alarm would have started to scream, he would have continued to leave though the door and not come back because at that point either their own security or employees would have been at the door to not only silence that alarm but to find out who the heck went outside a door they shouldn't have. You've all seen them, they've been around for a long time. 
#GMSTRONG
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Don't almost all fire exits (or emergency exits) have a lock that arms/disarms the alarm?
Are the indoor locks all unique? I would assume so, but who knows? How about those key "bump keys" that can open most exterior door locks? (I think that's what they're called, but I'm not certain. There was a huge article about them in the local paper a while ago) Could a bump key open an emergency door lock? Could a guy who bought this arsenal have gotten his hands on such a device?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I'm in the alarm business and a simple exit alarm would have stopped this entire mess. If the owner had just invested a couple of hundred bucks and put on that rear exit door an alarm that would sound if open, as soon as this man would have opened the door an alarm would have started to scream, he would have continued to leave though the door and not come back because at that point either their own security or employees would have been at the door to not only silence that alarm but to find out who the heck went outside a door they shouldn't have.
Tulsa...it is my understanding, the shooter purchased a ticket, then left the theater through the emergency exit door, but not before doing something to insure he could get back in through that door to carry out his attack.
I don't know what he did to the door to insure he could get back in, but obviously, no one checked to make sure the door was locked after the shooter left, through that door.
If all it took was a $200 door alarm to insure the door was locked...wow, what a costly oversight, especially considering the theater was built recently....maybe such alarms should be made mandatory by state or federal law??
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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As with almost everything, you can get as much security as you like. There is a key on this particular device I showed that allows the user to shut it off for door access. It's considered a local device as it's self-contained. That cylinder could be fixed with a special lock that has a grooves cut that can't be matched by an average locksmith, without the right blank the bump method becomes much more difficult.
You can also use a standard crash bar with a switch built in leading back to the security system of the building that is controlled by the coded keypad and not a key. A siren at the door would still sound. The door would be active in 24 hour mode it must be bypassed at the keypad to gain access without sounding the siren. It provides the egress necessary to meet NFPA 72 fire codes but will scream upon depress.
#GMSTRONG
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Tulsa...it is my understanding, the shooter purchased a ticket, then left the theater through the emergency exit door, but not before doing something to insure he could get back in through that door to carry out his attack.
I don't know what he did to the door to insure he could get back in, but obviously, no one checked to make sure the door was locked after the shooter left, through that door.
Mac it could have been something as simple as putting a screwdriver blade between the door and the frame, the pressure from the door closer would hold the screwdriver but as the door can't complete it's closing, prevent it from locking behind the guy.
#GMSTRONG
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Yeah but ....... is the theater owner responsible for searching each and every person who enters their theater?
Do we go to metal detectors, X-Ray scanners, and full body searches in order to just watch a movie?
No. Allowing honest law abiding citizens the right to arm and defend themselves in their facilities would be a better solution. I'll catch a lot of flack for saying that, but lives would have been saved had there been armed citizens in that theater. The law stripped them of the opportunity to defend themselves and their loved ones. Any security system can be bypassed by a clever criminal. People will scream that they want to be able to watch a movie and not have to worry about guns....but there are maniacs out there that want to kill, and no one knows where or when they'll strike. All those gunbuster signs do is create criminal protection zones....a safe haven where thugs know the law abiding will not be armed.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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There is more to it than just having armed citizens.
You would also have to have people who are willing to Do Something about it. One of the characteristics of several recent shootings is that, even though there were brief opportunities, No One, absolutely NO ONE, attempted any sort of offensive action.
People have become so dependent, so unwilling to take action on their own behalf, that I am not sure most folks are able to do what needs to be done to save their own lives. Most will wait helplessly while a nutcase walks over and puts a bullet into their brain.
Why not? When people are not even expected to feed themselves, to provide for their most basic needs, this is the result. They will wait for someone else to take care of them.
Get rid of all guns, get rid of all whackos, have armed guards in the theater. Feed me, clothe me, house me, pay for my medical care, give me a job.
There's a piece of Western history that is no longer taught in schools and is considered offensive. "The cowards never started, and the weak died along the way."
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I'm going to reply to several posts in one, but I'm not going back to reference posters.  1) Many theater exits are not strictly emergency exits, therefore often do not have the panic alarms on them. I know I have used the theater exit doors many times as I often park in the lot behind the theater and the back doors open up right to that lot. I bet this changes in the near future, to at least have sensors on the doors that alert staff of an open or propped door. 2) A sign on the door to the theater not allowing firearms in a state that has concealed carry permits is nothing. If you have your permit and there is nothing in the state carry laws prohibiting carry in a theater, then the sign is more of a trespass notice, and if the operator of the theater suspects you are carrying (which if your properly concealed they shouldn't) the most they can do is ask you to leave, and.or have the police remove you. It is not illegal to ignore that sign if you are leaglly carrying. Quote:
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Yeah but ....... is the theater owner responsible for searching each and every person who enters their theater?
Do we go to metal detectors, X-Ray scanners, and full body searches in order to just watch a movie?
No. Allowing honest law abiding citizens the right to arm and defend themselves in their facilities would be a better solution. I'll catch a lot of flack for saying that, but lives would have been saved had there been armed citizens in that theater. The law stripped them of the opportunity to defend themselves and their loved ones. Any security system can be bypassed by a clever criminal. People will scream that they want to be able to watch a movie and not have to worry about guns....but there are maniacs out there that want to kill, and no one knows where or when they'll strike. All those gunbuster signs do is create criminal protection zones....a safe haven where thugs know the law abiding will not be armed.
I'm not sure anyone armed would have been much help, the guy took everything to his advantage.
1) a place most people feel safe
2) element of surprise
3) cover of darkness
4) confusion and panic.
5) bullet proof vest and riot gear.
Unsuspecting muzzle flashes in a dark room like a theater would be temporarily blinding, smoke grenades, people running panicking. I would be hard pressed to begin returning fire in a situation unless I was within mere feet of my target.
I most likely would have taken cover between the seats, ensure my wife is OK, then draw my weapon, check that my wife has hers drawn for her own personal protection, and wait but be ready to fire only once I could confirm my target and guarantee I don't hit an innocents running for their lives.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 07/24/12 08:36 AM.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Any security system can be bypassed by a clever criminal.
I think you may have seen too many movies.
#GMSTRONG
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If the owner had just invested a couple of hundred bucks and put on that rear exit door an alarm that would sound if open,
I think that's a little unfair to call out the owner like that. I've been to probably 20 or so different movie theaters in my life in 4 different states and two countries and I've never seen any theater have alarms on those doors. I've used those doors many time to get to the parking lot quicker after a movie was over.
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah but ....... is the theater owner responsible for searching each and every person who enters their theater?
Do we go to metal detectors, X-Ray scanners, and full body searches in order to just watch a movie?
No. Allowing honest law abiding citizens the right to arm and defend themselves in their facilities would be a better solution. I'll catch a lot of flack for saying that, but lives would have been saved had there been armed citizens in that theater. The law stripped them of the opportunity to defend themselves and their loved ones. Any security system can be bypassed by a clever criminal. People will scream that they want to be able to watch a movie and not have to worry about guns....but there are maniacs out there that want to kill, and no one knows where or when they'll strike. All those gunbuster signs do is create criminal protection zones....a safe haven where thugs know the law abiding will not be armed.
This guy was wearing better body armor than the police wear. He had every inch of his body protected, and the average handgun probably wouldn;t have made a bit of difference in this particular case, except in maybe getting additional people hurt or killed.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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J/C
My thoughts on concealed carry (I have a lifetime CCL, and carry often)
I carry many places that don't allow guns (not bars/schools/or banks). Places like WalMart, a couple local restaurants, and movie theaters. I have yet to be outed or asked to leave and I dont worry about it. If I ever had to expose that I was carrying the people around me would have more to worry about. If nothing happens, nobody would know.
I also frequent quite a few firearm forums, and I promise you that a no guns sign doesn't discourage most CCL holders.
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That's why they make Teflon-coated bullets.
I asked the question before, and nobody addressed it. If a cop was present, and supposed to take the shot, to make the attempt to stop the killing, why is it that an ordinary citizen shouldn't?
If you have a good reason for that, then address the fact that there were no cops present, and the ordinary citizen was all that was available.
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Quote:
Quote:
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Yeah but ....... is the theater owner responsible for searching each and every person who enters their theater?
Do we go to metal detectors, X-Ray scanners, and full body searches in order to just watch a movie?
No. Allowing honest law abiding citizens the right to arm and defend themselves in their facilities would be a better solution. I'll catch a lot of flack for saying that, but lives would have been saved had there been armed citizens in that theater. The law stripped them of the opportunity to defend themselves and their loved ones. Any security system can be bypassed by a clever criminal. People will scream that they want to be able to watch a movie and not have to worry about guns....but there are maniacs out there that want to kill, and no one knows where or when they'll strike. All those gunbuster signs do is create criminal protection zones....a safe haven where thugs know the law abiding will not be armed.
This guy was wearing better body armor than the police wear. He had every inch of his body protected, and the average handgun probably wouldn;t have made a bit of difference in this particular case, except in maybe getting additional people hurt or killed.
Hard to say. They say even with body armor getting shot is like being hit with a hammer...That MIGHT have scared him enough to stop. Nobody will ever know...
not sure how more people would have been killed if an armed citizen would have shot him a couple times.
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Well, if it ain't gun laws, then maybe we should just swallow our pride and ask the UK why their murder rate is a fifth of what ours is or Japan why theirs is a twentieth of what ours is... because it is completely ridiculous how much higher ours is compared to the rest of the stabilized world.
Maybe we should ask Switzerland and Finland (who have the least restrictive gun control in Europe) why their violent crime rate is half that of Great Britain?
Yes, I think we should do that, too, because this country's violent crime and murder rate is a national embarrassment IMO.
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not sure how more people would have been killed if an armed citizen would have shot him a couple times.
Friendly fire. It was dark, smokey, tear gas, people running all over in panic. If people started returning fire, there likely would have been innocent people caught in the cross fire.
I'm all for conceal carry, but I think this is a situation where people firing back would have done more harm then good.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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not sure how more people would have been killed if an armed citizen would have shot him a couple times.
Friendly fire. It was dark, smokey, tear gas, people running all over in panic. If people started returning fire, there likely would have been innocent people caught in the cross fire.
I'm all for conceal carry, but I think this is a situation where people firing back would have done more harm then good.
too many variables. We'll never know.
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TWELVE people are DEAD. 40 or more wounded.
Just how bad does it have to get before taking some action becomes preferable?
If you choose to just lay down and die, that is your option.
There does not seem to be any evidence that this whacko took any target practice of any kind. At least decent odds that somebody, anybody, doing something, would have slowed him down, if nothing else.
Jesus H. Christ, even some idiot trying to ask him what he was so angry about and if they could just be friends might have had some effect.
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TWELVE people are DEAD. 40 or more wounded.
Just how bad does it have to get before taking some action becomes preferable?
If you choose to just lay down and die, that is your option.
There does not seem to be any evidence that this whacko took any target practice of any kind. At least decent odds that somebody, anybody, doing something, would have slowed him down, if nothing else.
Jesus H. Christ, even some idiot trying to ask him what he was so angry about and if they could just be friends might have had some effect.
So let's see, your sitting in a dark theater watching a movie, when suddenly there is a loud bang, smoke, and what what appears to be gunfire. Mind you at the premier of a movie with those same effects.
So after you realize it is not a side act as part of the premier, your going to stick your head up and look around to figure out who is the shooter, and you can be assured HE is the shooter and that the person you see is not a patron returning fire.
It's easy to say that your going to be a bad ass and walk up the guy and pull a Chuck Norris, disarm him, punch him, and stand over him with your hands on your hip and yell out "Fear not weak citizens, for I have saved you." It is a whole other ballgame to suddenly have gunfire and smoke and screaming, and people running all over.
Most people, even armed will seek safety first. Even as a concealed carrier, I will first preserve mine and my wives lives before I get involved and start shooting back, especially in these circumstances. It's hard enough to hit a target at distance under duress, it's even harder in a dark smoke filled room with panic all around, and repeated fire.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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jc...
When I buy a ticket to see a movie, should I expect a reasonable level of security to protect me from being attacked by someone using a gun?
If the owners of the movie theater are not responsible for the safety of their paying guests, then I feel those paying guests should be allowed to protect themselves.
I actually have experience with this exact question and scenario - and while I agree to an extent, I hope that nothing succeeds against the theater in any way, shape, or form.
In 1996 I was working at Panini's in the Flats when a stabbing occurred there. I was one of the people stabbed along with two others, one of which who effectively died of his wounds at the scene.
In the Civil trials that followed, this line of thinking was the basis for the suits against Panini by the family of the deceased. Thankfully, those suits generally failed.
Why am I happy about that? Because just as you and I have a right to expect a reasonable level of safety when we enter an establishment, they have the right to be able to expect to not have to account for every whacked out possibility out there and I feel that "check every person entering the theater for a mobile arsenal" goes a little past what they should reasonably have to do.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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And it probably still cost Panini's a fortune to fight, which is part of the problem with the system.
If your case isn't strong enough to win, then the Judge at the very least should have the ability to award the defendant some reimbursement for their costs in defending themselves.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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EDIT: removed for being off topic. Sorry
Last edited by NickBrownsFan; 07/24/12 12:30 PM.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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IMO it doesnt belong in this thread. Maybe there should be a gun violence thread, or 2nd amendment thread.
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IMO it doesnt belong in this thread. Maybe there should be a gun violence thread, or 2nd amendment thread.
Yeah your probably right I removed it.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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jc.
One thing I think we can all agree on is that there are just crazy people out there that can't cope with what's going on, and some of them snap. I don't know why injuring or killing innocent people is in anyway going to make them feel better, but then I'm not a shrink.
What we don't all agree on is the method at which to deal with it. Not that anyone's idea is wrong, but in most cases none of the solutions covers everyone 100% of the time. So it leaves a lot for gray area, in which all sides have a legitimacy.
Would I OK with a complete ban on guns? I would, only if you could guarantee me 100% that not one gun would be left behind(that would have be worldwide), and no one will ever be able to make that guarantee.
As long as there is a chance some nut job or thug could enter my house or put my family's life in danger in public, I want to maintain my right to arm myself and be able to defend myself, because I truly believe if I called 911 I'd still be on hold long after the suspect was done and on his way out.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 07/24/12 12:41 PM.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
I think that a lot of the desire for laws and regulations and stuff is that people just inherently don't want to accept that they are completely and utterly powerless over something that another person might do.
The idea that there is absolutely NOTHING they can do to prevent something is just unacceptable, so you end up with people brainstorming to come up with ideas that get latched onto because then people can at least FEEL like they aren't just sitting idle on their hands. The reality that the person that wants to do this will still do this never enters the equation.
I mean, if someone wants to shoot up a theater, do you REALLY believe that having to illegally get a weapon is going to stop them? Hell, the illegally begotten weapon will likely be better, anyway.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
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I did not intend to give the impression it would be simple, or easy, or that your odds of survival would be very good.
My intent was to convey that very, very few people would even consider the option of taking some action, and it would appear the vast majority would prefer that no one did anything. I agree with the above poster who stated the problem that people just want to believe they are safe. Being forced to consider desperate action underlines the fact that they are NOT safe. It is easier just to dismiss the possibility of finding it necessary to take action.
You have at least considered the situation, and examined the options and feasibility of taking action. I agree with the problems, and have already considered them. However, as you watch the bodies rolling down the aisle, and see people crowding the exits being mowed down, given the choice of two options, would you rather curl up into a ball and hide, or have a gun in your hand?
There is a point at which you have to realize that no one is coming to save you. You don't have to be Rambo, you don't have to do a Billy Badass act. You may have to save your own ass, or die. Making the attempt may not save you, but IMO it's better to die trying than to just die.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,480
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
The idea that there is absolutely NOTHING they can do to prevent something is just unacceptable, so you end up with people brainstorming to come up with ideas that get latched onto because then people can at least FEEL like they aren't just sitting idle on their hands. The reality that the person that wants to do this will still do this never enters the equation.
Airport "security" anyone?
#gmstrong
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,126
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,126 |
Quote:
You may have to save your own ass, or die. Making the attempt may not save you, but IMO it's better to die trying than to just die.
The concern here is not about my well being if I take action. It's about the other innocent people in that theater. Shooting blindly across a dark theater where you have a high probability of hitting someone besides the shooter is not the best decision. Action for the sake of action isn't always the right thing to do.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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