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And that is ALL an owner can do.... EVERYTHING ELSE is HIT OR MISS.
By definition, if he has done whatever it takes to try to field a winner, then there is nothing more he could have done. HE didn't fail, he was failed.
There's a big difference between trying and succeeding. If you're managing at a company and the people you hire screw up their jobs, is your boss going to go and ream your direct reports for not executing or is he going to go after you for hiring such lousy workers? The only reason Randy made it remotely this long given his track record is because he IS the boss.
The bottom line is that while Randy TRIED his hardest to run the team, he was terrible at it. Ever since he has taken over, he has put people in charge that can't get the job done... sure he's paid for them and worked hard to learn how to hire good ones (which is why I still think he's a good, well intentioned person) but that doesn't change the fact that they couldn't get the job done. You can commend him for his effort all you want but in the end, the buck stops with him.
We're... we're good?
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God is a Browns fan.
Only if he also goes by the name Loki.
Yeah, Loki  not Odin LOL.
Randy Al-Son?
Not a reference to Randy, but to what God. ie Loki (the God of the underworld), because we surly have suffered as such.
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NRTU specifically... I find it kind of funny that I predicted this long ago. From the Aston Villa purchase and the Aston Villa tatoo it's not too hard where the man's true passion was. When he hired Holmgren to do his job for him it just made it all the more clear. Now we learn that his dad asked for a 10 year morotorium on selling the team...and he's trying to sell it on that date with no room to spare!  Oh well....things that are simple and logically clear just aren't that way for people for some reason or another. It was obvious to me. And I'm glad he's selling it. We can get an owner in here that will be in tune with the organization he owns. I see this as a positive, frankly a big positive, if the left tail stuff doesn't materialize. Thank you Randy for stepping aside.
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In a landslide! Still hate him if any polls are being taken. Those who don't hate him, well, they don't know him well enough yet (or he hasn't stolen their beloved team out from under them yet).  
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Ok, but now let's be real about this.
Scratch Butch off the list - he didn't hire him, he inherited him.
Lerner gave him a contract extension and handed him total power of the team, making it so that Butch answered solely to him.
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Kokinis & Mangini are one item.
It can be assumed that there was a wink-wink deal to bring Mangini first then Kokinis second, but that's not a lock. It still had to have Lerner's blessing. However, Lerner then fired Kokinis but kept Mangini. I would argue that Lerner allowed a faulty power structure to exist if he hired a GM who didn't really have any power, and thus did nothing but sit in his office and sulk, leading to his demise and an embarrassing thing for Lerner.
However, let's forget all that and just call them a single unit. Lerner is still 0-2. Add in Savage, who was a failure, and that's 0-3.
Now as I said, if you wanna call Walrus a TBD, fine, but that's 0-3-1. Ugh. I would argue that Holmgren hasn't done much of anything here. He kept a head coach who failed miserably, and hand-picked McCoy who also failed. Sure, I'm on-board with giving him a TBD, but if we're going to be fair, you must then admit that he's FAR closer to being a failure than being a success.
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I reckon we have a different idea of fair. You seem to think that someone should get things right the firs time every time with everything they do.... it must suck to live in your world, the level of disappointment you must suffer has to be truly maddening.
First time? Nope. FOURTH time? Yup. 
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Not irrelevant when you stated that he has no clue. He does, and a helluva lot more than some internet keyboard jockey judging him.
He has one of the worst records in the NFL over his tenure, and we are viewed by many outlets as being the 32nd best team in the league.
I'd say there's more than keyboard jockey's indicting his tenure.
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By definition, if he has done whatever it takes to try to field a winner, then there is nothing more he could have done. HE didn't fail, he was failed.
Horsefeathers. There aren't any silver-medals here for trying. This isn't a summer soccer-camp for 8-10 year olds.
His people failed. His people. If enough of my people fail whom I hired, I'm fired. The buck stops at my desk, just as it stops at Lerner's.
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You want to take the buck stops here line, blah blah... that's a load of crap. Hell, if that's the case, then how the hell are you blaming Holmgren for Mangini...
Because Holmgren elected to keep him when he should have fired him. And don't give me any of that "hindsight is 20/20" crap. Holmgren is paid the HUGE bucks to make the right calls. History is his judge, not me. He either got the decision right or he didn't. Mangini was a disaster after he was retained, which means Holmgren blew the call.
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Make up your mind already. Does the buck stop at the top or not??
Always.
If more than one head coach fails, the GM that hired them has to shoulder the blame. If multiple GM's fail, the owner who hired them has to shoulder the blame.
So...yet again...I applaud Lerner for trying like Hell, but trying doesn't equal success. Success is measured in Win's and Losses, and by that ultimate measure...well...need I post the Browns Win's-and-Losses record over his tenure? I'd rather not...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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People wondered why we stocked up on experienced, "NFL ready" type players on offense, then took a shot at Gordon in the Supplemental Draft.
Perhaps now we know why.
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Heckert knows that this is the year that this team needs to show major improvement, or he could be swept out once the sale of the team is completed. The only thing that really surprises me is that we didn't load up a bit more on free agents in order to jump start the process even faster.
Considering the guy buying the team is a "footbal guy", I think that would not have looked good for the long term success of the team and may have been more of a negative that a positive for Heckert.
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I think that we are in "Win now, because next year could be too late" mode.
At least I'm not the only one playing connect the dits on this thing. I couldn't agree with you more. The whole Gordon thing makes a lot more sense to me now. You don't see a guy like Heckert do something so totaly out of character for no reason.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I love the Browns, if I had a billion to invest and the Browns weren't for sale and I could buy another team so I could own an NFL team, I would do it. I would root like crazy for the team I owned and do everything I could to get them to the superbowl... then I'd wear my Browns hat in private and hope that if I didn't win the super bowl that the Browns would.
Lots of players (as in almost all) grow up rooting for SOMEBODY and most don't get to play for that team... That doesn't stop them from wanting to win a superbowl for whatever team they are on.
yebat' Putin
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While I'm not opposed t this..I want to seewhat this new group does..are they going to can people or leave the setup in place?
Holmy put a lot of people in exe positions..just wonder where thats going to go.
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Holmgren addresses Cleveland media Posted 1 hour ago By Matt Florjancic, Staff Writer During the opening minutes of Friday afternoon’s practice, Browns president Mike Holmgren addressed the Cleveland media as a follow-up to an earlier statement from owner Randy Lerner. undefined As the Cleveland Browns’ players and coaches got practice started Friday afternoon to kick off their 2012 training camp schedule, team president Mike Holmgren addressed the media regarding a statement owner Randy Lerner released earlier in the day. Lerner released a statement regarding Mr. Jimmy Haslam’s interest “in making an investment in the Cleveland Browns.” “Randy’s No. 1 concern, in our meetings during the last couple of days, has been it not become a distraction, if possible, for the coaching staff and the players,” Holmgren said. “They have a hugely important job to do. We’re in the business of winning football games and we have a good, young team that, I think, is on the verge of what we all wanted. “The No. 1 thing our owner wanted me to pass along to you was that this is a great community that deserves a fine football team. I think we’re getting close and he just does not want any of this to disrupt that for the coaches and/or the players.” Holmgren said negotiations regarding the potential investment have been about “a controlling interest of the team.” “He has a deep love for this team,” Holmgren said of Lerner. “He’s been with the franchise since his father passed away -- has been running it -- and is trying his best to do the right things. As his kids have gotten older, his life has changed a little bit and he was very concerned about the right person stepping forward, if he was going to sell the football team, and apparently, all the stars aligned in the last few months.” Holmgren assured the media of one point in the negotiations. “It’s my understanding that from the get-go, one of the stipulations, both principles understand the Cleveland Browns aren’t going anywhere,” Holmgren said. “The Cleveland Browns are the Cleveland Browns and they’re going to stay.” Holmgren was on vacation earlier this summer when Lerner gave him a “preliminary report” on the potential investment. Since that initial call, the two men have been in constant contact with regard to the situation. “You’re always surprised when something of this magnitude comes up, but it happens with a franchise,” Holmgren said “There are certain things we can’t talk about right now. The league has certain protocols. They have to vote on any sort of change. We’re following those rules; we’re in contact with the league and doing what we have to do that way. “I don’t want people off-balance. This goes on in professional sports, on occasion.”Cleveland fans be "off-balance"? never
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif)
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was just a theory.... but, being that the situation is a little different than it was with The Move - we're a little touchy now, I'd say - I could see where they may worry about such a thing.
Afterall, we are the ticket and merchandising income.
We've been tried, tested and proven true. We are a commodity and everyone knows it. We have already been tested and passed many times.....
Modell fires Paul brown
The Move
The guy who supplied Modell the plane to go to Baltimore to negotiate moving the team, buys the new team.
Still we have supported the Browns.
Nobody need to "test market" a new owner here..... To think that a new owner needs to be "tested" after all we've been through to this point? Seriously?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Kind of an odd time for this to come out if they want to avoid distraction.
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Just clicking
All afternoon, I've been cruisin the web, watching various TV Stations and Radio stations.. I'm not one to panic much but damn, this looks real folks..
Randy appears to be getting out.
Donovan said that an offer of about 730 million was made last spring which was immediately rejected.
So the numbers are gonna be FOR REAL. This is a 900 million business. that should be the price (in that area anyway)
I'm disappointed that Randy would dump out, but hey, how many times have we heard, it's a business.
The thing that bothers me is this, the Drafts we've had for a few years really look good. we've finally got a lot of the parts that should make this thing work and if a new owner comes in, it could all revert back to garbage again.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Kind of an odd time for this to come out if they want to avoid distraction.
When it's the Browns..when is it ever odd??
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The thing that bothers me is this, the Drafts we've had for a few years really look good. we've finally got a lot of the parts that should make this thing work and if a new owner comes in, it could all revert back to garbage again.
Thats the thing that bothers me too. If the new proposed owners were strictly business entitities who just wanted to own a team and not really run it, I might feel better... but this group really seems to want to be hands on... at least thats the impression I get...
Then again other business owners have come in and tried to run things (Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones come to mind) and really not done well...
I guess all we can do is wait and see but I would at least hope that he lets Holmgren finish his contract because I think we really are headed in the right direction.
yebat' Putin
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I'd like Holmgren to finish his contract, too, but maybe this is a good season for him to "walk away.". Heckert is getting the FO straight and Shurmur is getting things the way he likes.
In other words, if we're going to get rid of guys, I'd rather it be Holmgren than Heckert/Shurmur. But I'm not saying I want Holmgren gone.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Kind of an odd time for this to come out if they want to avoid distraction.
For us, it would be odd if the timing made sense.
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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Just clicking
All afternoon, I've been cruisin the web, watching various TV Stations and Radio stations.. I'm not one to panic much but damn, this looks real folks..
Randy appears to be getting out.
Donovan said that an offer of about 730 million was made last spring which was immediately rejected.
So the numbers are gonna be FOR REAL. This is a 900 million business. that should be the price (in that area anyway)
I'm disappointed that Randy would dump out, but hey, how many times have we heard, it's a business.
The thing that bothers me is this, the Drafts we've had for a few years really look good. we've finally got a lot of the parts that should make this thing work and if a new owner comes in, it could all revert back to garbage again.
On the other hand ... maybe he will build a monopoly like he has with the Truck stop travel centers.
Like the rest of you though all of the change is wearing my patients pretty thin.
If not for the mention of Banner, then I would hope or expect very little change at all.
I think it's fair to expect a certain amount, but ours has been trying to say the least.
Like everything else the devil will be in the details.
Sadly I don't think that we will have all those details any time before October.
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I think this is terrible news for a few reasons:
1. The players and coaching staff will be distracted all season long. Make no mistake about it.
2. Bye, bye Heckert. Word is him and Banner weren't best friends in Philly.
3. Bye, bye Shurmur and reboot.
Oh joy. Only in Browns Town.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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There's a reason we are a laughingstock.
And we continuously earn that moniker.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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We are a laughingstock because our owner doesn't want to be here anymore?
That's odd.
you had a good run Hank.
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web page Transcript of Browns President Mike Holmgren's press conference transcript of what Browns President Mike Holmgren had to say during media availability today, regarding the potential sale of the team: (Opening statement) “I think anything I would say has probably already been written. The club is in negotiations with a buyer, an investor, and it’s an ongoing thing right now. Randy’s (Lerner) number one concern, in our meetings in the last couple of days has been that it not become a distraction, if possible, for the coaching staff and the players. They have a hugely important job to do. We’re in the business of winning football games and we have a good young team that I think is on the verge of becoming what you all wanted and what we all wanted. That’s his number one concern. Moving forward, things will be written, things will be said and I would ask you to go through Neal (Gulkis) and we will try to sort it out and try to answer as many things as we go along. Obviously there are some things that we can’t talk about right now. The league has certain protocols that you all know about where they have to vote on any sort of change and those types of things. We’re following those rules, we’re in contact with the league and doing what we have to do that way, but the number one thing I think our owner wanted me to pass along to you was that this is a great community that deserves a fine football team. I think we’re getting close and he just does not want any of this to disrupt that for the coaches or the players. If there are a couple of questions I will try to answer them to the best of my ability and then I am going to watch practice.” (On his future) “My future is bright. Tony (Grossi), that will be answered probably down the road and you control the things you can control and do the best you can. I think we’ve done a lot of great things here in getting to this point, but we will see.” (On if he was surprised to learn the team was for sale and when he first found out) “I was in California this summer and Randy contacted me and gave me preliminary reports. Since that point, we have been in constant contact. He’s kept me abreast of every single thing that has been going on and he has been more than fair that way. Clearly there had to be some confidentiality involved in this thing, but I appreciate that he involved me in this. I think you are always a little bit surprised when something of this magnitude comes up I think, but it happens. This stuff happens.” (On if it will be a complete sale) “What I can say is that he is giving up a controlling interest in the team. That’s what I can say. As details come out we can elaborate a little bit more, but it is a controlling interest.” (On if this changes his plan to fulfill his contract) “To me, a contract is a contract. I have said that before and I try to be honest with you about that. We’ll deal with those things as we go down the road. Right now I am the President of the team and that’s how I am operating.” (On if there is a guarantee that the team is not moving) “It’s my understanding that from the get-go that’s been one of the stipulations and both principles understand that. The Cleveland Browns are not going anywhere. The Cleveland Browns are the Cleveland Browns and they’re going to stay.” (On if he told the players about this) “Pat (Shurmur) talked to the players this morning. We had an email that went around to the folks in the building and I plan to talk to them as a group next week. I don’t want people off balance. This goes on on occasion in professional sports, as you know, but Pat talked to the coaches and players this morning.” (On if there is a timetable for when this will get done) “I can’t answer that. Honestly, I really can’t answer that right now. All I go by is league protocols and what has to happen there. I know nothing is finalized until the league votes on it.” (On if Joe Banner is a part of this) “I don’t know. I honestly don’t know.” (On the report that this deal is close to being done) “Like I said, sometimes you guys have a little more knowledge than I do. I don’t know. I can’t comment on that.” (On if he has spoken with the prospective new owner) “No, I have not. He is a very impressive man when you read about him and people that I have talked to who know him say he is a tremendous guy.” (On if Randy Lerner said why he going forward this way) “Well of course he and I had a lot of discussions about this and he has a deep love for this team. He’s been with the franchise since his father passed away, as you know, and running it and trying his best to do the right things. I think as his kids have gotten older and his life has changed a little bit and he was very concerned with and interested in the right person stepping forward if he was going to sell the football team. Apparently, all the stars aligned in the last few months.” (On if this would be a Lerner family decision) “You would have to ask them. I am staying out of that one, but I would think so. It’s a family business.”
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We are a laughingstock because our owner doesn't want to be here anymore?
That's odd.
No, we are a laughingstock because it is always SOMETHING... being moved followed by, new QB every year who fails, new coach every other year who fails, new GM every 3rd or 4th year who fails, draft picks that don't pan out, players leaving and bad mouthing the team, the occassional surprise positive season always followed by returning to 4 or 5 wins... now that the FO seems to be squared away, the coaching staff at least appears stable, the draft picks appear to be much better, we have a decent talent base in the works, we have positive signs at QB... what could possibly go wrong? The owner sells the team... 
That is why.
yebat' Putin
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This could all be fixed by letting me, FL, and Turk run the scouting department. 
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Looks like its gonna be another blow up...im gonna rage out
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This could all be fixed by letting me, FL, and Turk run the scouting department.
The League will need to take some steps and have a meeting to take a vote ... this will (conveniently for Randy) not take place until October.
Why let the cat out of the bag at this time?
I think with almost a day of reflection now that they wanted us to kinda get used to the fact before any such sale.
Still we won't know what the future holds by way of Coach's/systems and FO until the details are allowed to come out.
My biggest concern is with starting over from scratch. If they do a major blowup of this team now, then I think that they (the Browns and NFL) will lose my fanship.
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j/c
I understand the 30 year lease and all.............but leases can be bought out. Is L.A. the next step for the "browns"?
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Kind of an odd time for this to come out if they want to avoid distraction.
I used to refer to Jr as Mr Bad Timing. He always seemed to hold on to things too long or pull the trigger to early. Never seemed to have an ear for timing in the slightest. First thing I thought when I read about this this afternoon was Mr Bad Timing is at it again. I mean, could you possibly pick a MORE distracting time for FO & coaching that the very beginning of training camp in what looks like will be a high growth year but challenging and ? How can they not all be suddenly thinking about the different the kind impression they need to be giving? Whatever trajectory the team was on, from a FO and coaching standpoint, it now needs to be ramped up much faster. They're basically going to have this year to make their case and they have to know it. Bravo Randy!
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
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j/c
I understand the 30 year lease and all.............but leases can be bought out. Is L.A. the next step for the "browns"?
I thought we put that pony in the barn.
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We will see.
Do you have any write ups about the Heckert/Banner deal? I'd like to read something to this effect.
Let's just say I was the one buying the team. Would I want to put my stamp on it. Of course. But I surely wouldn't want to throw a wrench into the gears and disrupt this season.
I relate it to buying a house. I want to live in it for a little bit before I start making changes.
I think having Randy as owner was a drag on the organization as a whole. I'm hopeful that this guy is a PRUDENT owner who is involved and passionate and will spare no expense to make this team a winner.
By the way...hey Randy....why not me?!?
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We are a laughingstock because our owner doesn't want to be here anymore?
That's odd.
No, we are a laughingstock because it is always SOMETHING... being moved followed by, new QB every year who fails, new coach every other year who fails, new GM every 3rd or 4th year who fails, draft picks that don't pan out, players leaving and bad mouthing the team, the occassional surprise positive season always followed by returning to 4 or 5 wins... now that the FO seems to be squared away, the coaching staff at least appears stable, the draft picks appear to be much better, we have a decent talent base in the works, we have positive signs at QB... what could possibly go wrong? The owner sells the team...
That is why.
Thank you.
I underlined the main point and bolded the main word.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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j/c
I understand the 30 year lease and all.............but leases can be bought out. Is L.A. the next step for the "browns"?
I thought we put that pony in the barn.
Oh. It's a long thread, I didn't read every post. How is that pony in the barn?
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Kind of an odd time for this to come out if they want to avoid distraction.
I used to refer to Jr as Mr Bad Timing. He always seemed to hold on to things too long or pull the trigger to early. Never seemed to have an ear for timing in the slightest. First thing I thought when I read about this this afternoon was Mr Bad Timing is at it again. I mean, could you possibly pick a MORE distracting time for FO & coaching that the very beginning of training camp in what looks like will be a high growth year but challenging and ? How can they not all be suddenly thinking about the different the kind impression they need to be giving? Whatever trajectory the team was on, from a FO and coaching standpoint, it now needs to be ramped up much faster. They're basically going to have this year to make their case and they have to know it. Bravo Randy!
I think that's a valid point ... everyone will auditioning for next year this year. I guess to an extent they always are, but even more so now.
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I understand the 30 year lease and all.............but leases can be bought out. Is L.A. the next step for the "browns"?
I'd think our asking price is quite high to buy and move! Couldnt JVille or other teams be half the price and more suited to uproot and go?
Stadium repairs done six years ahead of the money, fantastic fan support, ten year labor agreement, new TV deal and a team apparently on the climb makes me more inclined to say its a good time to buy a team and theyre going nowhere.
Last edited by 1oldMutt; 07/27/12 06:26 PM.
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j/c
I understand the 30 year lease and all.............but leases can be bought out. Is L.A. the next step for the "browns"?
I thought we put that pony in the barn.
Oh. It's a long thread, I didn't read every post. How is that pony in the barn?
Frank Jackson issued a statement saying they signed a 30 year lease, and they'd owe the city.
Randy Lerner made it clear that the first point of the sale would be that the team stays in Cleveland.
The NFL would not allow the Browns to leave again.
It's not going to happen again.
you had a good run Hank.
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j/c
I understand the 30 year lease and all.............but leases can be bought out. Is L.A. the next step for the "browns"?
I thought we put that pony in the barn.
Oh. It's a long thread, I didn't read every post. How is that pony in the barn?
Firstly it was Al Lerner's wishes that it be part of any such sale.
Secondly and probably less dependable, but it has been stated by Holmgren himself.
Lastly the legal issues that would have to meet with League approval as far as being permitted to break the lease.
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We are a laughingstock because our owner doesn't want to be here anymore?
That's odd.
No, we are a laughingstock because it is always SOMETHING... being moved followed by, new QB every year who fails, new coach every other year who fails, new GM every 3rd or 4th year who fails, draft picks that don't pan out, players leaving and bad mouthing the team, the occassional surprise positive season always followed by returning to 4 or 5 wins... now that the FO seems to be squared away, the coaching staff at least appears stable, the draft picks appear to be much better, we have a decent talent base in the works, we have positive signs at QB... what could possibly go wrong? The owner sells the team...
That is why.
Thank you.
I underlined the main point and bolded the main word.
I think it's hilarious. Almost every "expert" has said that this is great for Cleveland.
Status Quo is only good when you have good people in place, and Lerner was a terrible owner.
you had a good run Hank.
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I'd like Holmgren to finish his contract, too, but maybe this is a good season for him to "walk away.". Heckert is getting the FO straight and Shurmur is getting things the way he likes.
In other words, if we're going to get rid of guys, I'd rather it be Holmgren than Heckert/Shurmur. But I'm not saying I want Holmgren gone.
Yeah, but what if the new owner is like a Jerry Jones or Dandy Dan Snyder and just decides to rip hell out of things. (jones not so much but he's really not been a good owner the last ten years)
I really believe we've made some progress these last two years. three really. we've begun to add the core players. We've moved to the WCO, we've moved to the 4-3 Defense.
What if the new owner doesn't want those things?
What if he says, I'm a hands off guy and hires someone that doesn't believe in those systems.. What then,, Rip it up and start all over again and we're looking at another 3 or 4 or 5 years of dead NFL Football in Cleveland.
Who's this Banner guy I keep hearing about. He has roots with Heckert and Shurmur and probably Childress as well from Philly. If he comes in as Pres.. then maybe we don't have a problem at all. If we retain Holmgren, I don't think anything will change either. we'll stay the course and that would be fine by me.
I really think we are on the right track finally. I don't want to see that disrupted..
I've been a pretty staunch defender of Randy Lerner, but this may be the straw that breaks the camels back for me with him.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'm scared the team is going to move, I don't believe these guys.
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My fear is this is the end of Heckert, Shurmur, and some the players we have acquired over the last few years.
In other words, another reboot.
For the first time in a long time, I've loved what we've done the last few years. I feel like we are on the right track.
I don't want another reboot.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I'm scared the team is going to move, I don't believe these guys.
And know one should blame you either.
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