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My point was not to debate the quality, but the suggested lack-of-investment intimated in KS's "bargain bin" comment.
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My point was not to debate the quality, but the suggested lack-of-investment intimated in KS's "bargain bin" comment.
And I agree with you in regards to the investment.
Problem being, many invest in losing propositions. Pinkston was the 150th pick in the draft. Lauvao really hasn't shown anything to me.
I mean you can call Facebook stock an investment rather than a novelty if you like, but isn't the true test of an investment the dividends that investment pays?
So I'm not disgreeing with you in regards to the investments that were made. My question is far more in regards to the wisdom of those two investments.
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Last year you had a 3rd year center, a 2nd year G, and a rookie G... in the best defensive division in football... who have had no consistency in their coaching or their schemes or the QB they were blocking for ...
I'd give it just a bit more time before I decided that the guards can't play at the NFL level.
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And how long is it you give a G to learn to block exactly?
Lauvao was drafted with McCoy. Are you suggesting we have more patience with a G than a QB? How does that work exactly?
And say what you will, with Thomas on one side and Mack on the other, Pinkston is surrounded with talent on both sides. I actually hold out some hope for Pinkston strictly based on his footwork, but we can't keep making excuses for players who choke and create unnecassary penalties.
They don't in other professions and hopefully the new owner will see it in that same light. I look at it this way, you can't replace an entire offense in one season.
I don't think we are where either Holmgren or Heckert want us to be yet in terms of talent. And I believe the G position is one of those places. To which I agree.
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which is why we drafted Ryan Miller. cannot fix everything at once. gotta hope that 2 of those 3 guys turn it on this year and secure their spots.
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which is why we drafted Ryan Miller. cannot fix everything at once. gotta hope that 2 of those 3 guys turn it on this year and secure their spots.
I hope that every player we have makes the pro bowl and that we win the Super Bowl.
But then again I'm getting older and delusions of grandeur get more common.
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And how long is it you give a G to learn to block exactly?
As long as it takes or until I'm in a position to find somebody better.
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Lauvao was drafted with McCoy. Are you suggesting we have more patience with a G than a QB? How does that work exactly?
I'm sure if they thought drafting a guard in the first round would have made us that much better, that is what they would have done.
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They don't in other professions and hopefully the new owner will see it in that same light.
Hopefully our truck stop billionaire owner will stay the hell out of evaluating and making decisions regarding OG talent.
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I don't think we are where either Holmgren or Heckert want us to be yet in terms of talent.
If anybody believes otherwise, they should be shot at dawn.
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And I believe the G position is one of those places. To which I agree.
So you are agreeing with your own opinion of what somebody else may or may not think?
I believe that Holmgren and Heckert viewed the OG spots as positions that were less important than others to upgrade because one season in a new system with no offseason is just as hard to gel an OL as it is a QB/WR group... I believe they may not view it as a great strength but not a great weakness and will evaluate as this season goes to see how they are gelling together... and I agree with them.
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lol
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And how long is it you give a G to learn to block exactly?
As long as it takes or until I'm in a position to find somebody better.
Exactly. As I said, you can't replace everyone you need to on O in one draft.
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Lauvao was drafted with McCoy. Are you suggesting we have more patience with a G than a QB? How does that work exactly?
I'm sure if they thought drafting a guard in the first round would have made us that much better, that is what they would have done.
Not really. You don't draft a G at #4 or #22. I guess you could if you are a SB contender, but that's not the case here. They drafted greater areas of need at skilled positions which I feel they believed was a much better investment of the picks. Not because they didn't feel the need to upgrade at G.
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They don't in other professions and hopefully the new owner will see it in that same light.
Hopefully our truck stop billionaire owner will stay the hell out of evaluating and making decisions regarding OG talent.
I didn't say that or hint that. He just won't be buying into the whole "Well it takes three or four years for a G to develop" crap.
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And I believe the G position is one of those places. To which I agree.
So you are agreeing with your own opinion of what somebody else may or may not think?
I don't really think it's an "opinion" of what somebody else thinks. They have eyes and watch the games too. And even study game films. Unless their vision is awful, it's pretty obvious as to what they think about the play at the G position. Either that, or they should be shot at dawn.
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I believe that Holmgren and Heckert viewed the OG spots as positions that were less important than others to upgrade because one season in a new system with no offseason is just as hard to gel an OL as it is a QB/WR group... I believe they may not view it as a great strength but not a great weakness and will evaluate as this season goes to see how they are gelling together... and I agree with them.
Lauvao can't block. This leaves lumps in you "gel..lo". Pinkston in his second year? You may very well have a point. You are right in regards to the fact that we had far greater needs right away than the G position and they addressed them.
If even most of this years earlier draft picks show signs of improvement over the course of this season, G will be an area they wil address in next years draft.
They see the needs and address them as we have seen in their previous drafts. Next year will be no different. I'm not knocking them for the way they handled this years draft. You can only do so much in one draft. But if anybody in this FO is actually waiting fort Lauvao to "gel" with anyone, maybe they really do need to clean out this FO?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Lauvao can't block. This leaves lumps in you "gel..lo". Pinkston in his second year? You may very well have a point. You are right in regards to the fact that we had far greater needs right away than the G position and they addressed them.
I'm afraid Browns fans are going to find out the real reason defenses loaded the box on Cleveland last year, especially in the middle...and it had nothing to do with McCoy being able to get the ball deep, "to loosen the defense up".
The Browns now have a QB who "can" get the ball deep and I believe we are going to see defenses load the box and attack our the middle of the Browns Oline again, this season. I wonder how many are again going blame the Browns QB and his ability to get the ball deep?
Pinkston has played like dog crap this preseason and I'm truly amazed that the Browns did not replace him because "no one" could play worse than Pinkston did in the first series against the Philly #1s last week.
Think about this...Philly (#1s) did not load the box against the Browns (#1s) and attack our middle with blitzes. Philly exposed Pinkston with simple one on one play by their well traveled (Jags,Panther,Eagles) 5 th round DT Derek Landri.
I can guarantee everyone, the Eagles are going to blitz or show blitz up the middle in the 1st regular season game. If the Eagles are successful at collapsing the pocket and making Weeden's day miserable, it won't be Weeden's fault.
Weeden is a "pocket passer", which makes our Oline responsible for providing Weeden a pocket and enough time to deliver an accurate pass.
The weak links in the Browns offense are #1 Pinkston...#2 Lauvao...#3 Schwartz.
Schwartz is getting better every game ...Lauvao is average, at best...Pinkston is dog crap.
The critical question becomes...do Lauvao and Pinkston have what it takes to improve their game enough to allow Weeden a chance?
We will find out in 10 days...
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Think about this...Philly (#1s) did not load the box against the Browns (#1s) and attack our middle with blitzes. Philly exposed Pinkston with simple one on one play by their well traveled (Jags,Panther,Eagles) 5 th round DT Derek Landri.
You need to rewatch the game. The Eagles consistently put 8 in the box.
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Think about this...Philly (#1s) did not load the box against the Browns (#1s) and attack our middle with blitzes. Philly exposed Pinkston with simple one on one play by their well traveled (Jags,Panther,Eagles) 5 th round DT Derek Landri.
You need to rewatch the game. The Eagles consistently put 8 in the box.
05...got the tape right here and just reviewed it to see who Pinkston was blocking...the Eagle ran a 4-3 defense and did not blitz on the first, second or third possession. I can check the rest of the first half if you want?
Also, after the first series, Landri was out of the game and the #2 and #3 Eagles DT was across from Pinkston.
Check your tape...
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I didn't say that or hint that. He just won't be buying into the whole "Well it takes three or four years for a G to develop" crap.
Yes you did, in fact you just said it again.... this is what you said..
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but we can't keep making excuses for players who choke and create unnecassary penalties.
They don't in other professions and hopefully the new owner will see it in that same light.
So being the fair person that I am, I will give you another chance to explain this connection between evaluating guard talent and how long it should take and whether or not the owner believes that is the case... If the owner feels the OGs are inadequate and are not developing fast enough, what exactly should he do about it?
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I don't really think it's an "opinion" of what somebody else thinks. They have eyes and watch the games too. And even study game films. Unless their vision is awful, it's pretty obvious as to what they think about the play at the G position. Either that, or they should be shot at dawn.
You could have saved yourself a lot of typing and just said, "If they don't agree with my opinion, they should be shot at dawn." 
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Lauvao can't block.
Yet he is in the NFL and our braintrust with a hundred years of NFL experience and a vault full of film study made virtually zero attempt to find somebody who could... that's odd. If your assertion that he can't block is true and if the FO shares this opinion, I would fully expect as cuts are made for us to have a parade of OGs coming here for a look... since you absolutely can't have an OG who can't block protecting your first round QB investment.....
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The Eagles weren't a huge blitz team last year. They still led the league in sacks with 50+.
Play 1: Rushed 4. Weeden to Benjamin for 28 yards.
Play 2: Pinkston blown up on the run play
Play 3: False Start on Pinkston
Play 4: (2nd and 19) Rush 4. Weeden to Smith for 20 yards.
Play 5: TO. Run right for 6. Flag on the Eagles Off Sides.
Play 6: Run right for a 2 yard game.
Play 7: Run left for 6 yards.
Play 8: Rushed 4. Weeden to Massaquoi for 12 yards.
Play 9: Run middle for 3 yards.
Play 10: Rushed 4. Weeden to Massaquoi for 6 yards.
Play 11: Offside defense.
Play 12: Holding on Pinkston
Play 13: Hardesty fumble.
2nd series:
Play 1: Run right for 1 yard.
Play 2: Rushed 4, Weeden deep for Benjamin - Incomplete
Play 3: Rushed 4: Weeden deep for Little - Incomplete
3rd Series.
Play 1: Nice play action brought the defense to the offensive left. Weeden to Little for 3 yards. Weeden almost sacked by #54.
Play 2: Hardest fumbles.
Those are the 1st 3 series of the game. Outside of Hardesty's 2 fumbles, Weeden handled the pass rush and the Wide 9 pressure pretty well. He didn't make any horrible mistakes at that point. He went 5-7 for 69 yards.
Series 4:
Play 1: Rushed 4. Lots of time. Weeden couldn't find anyone open. Incomplete.
Play 2: False Start: Mack
Play 3: Run right ffor no gain.
Play 4: (3rd and 15) Rushed 4. Pinkston's man ran an outside loop all the way around the front of the offense. Pinkston looked lost out in space ahead of the play and was "blocking" after Cameron recovered the fumble. Thomas' man with the strip sack. Weeds had 2 seconds in slo motion.
Play 5: (Bonus Play) Blocked Punt. Eagles ball at the 3.
Series 5:
Play 1: Rushed 4. Pass dropped by Cameron
Play 2: Run right for 4 yards.
Play 3: Rushed 5. LB blitz. Pass incomplete to Little. Defensive PI.
Play 4: Rushed 7. All out blitz. Weeden sacked. No chance. Schwartz's guy went through him like he wasn't even there. Literally. He wasn't even slowed up by 1/4 step.
Anyway, that's the first 5 series. The Eagles blitzed twice to that point.
The OL didn't cover themselves in glory, but we also had drops and really poor running. Weeden's sacks were as close to unimpeded rushes as I ever want to see on one of our QBs.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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I've stayed out of these debates regarding the QB's and the guards, other than to have said I disagree with anyone who says our guards played well at any point last year. I've also stated I intentionally didn't watch any preseason games because with this cast of characters the preseason stuff doesn't hold much water or weight.
Having noted that, if what you said is true about Pinky, and I have no reason to believe you're embellishing or incompetent, then we're again going to get pathetic guard play leading to no rushing spaces for our #3 investment and no time for our cement-legged #22 investment to throw.
If that rings true, which looks far more likely than unlikely, then someone is going to have to answer for this debacle. We had TONS of free cash to upgrade a pathetic situation at both guard positions, and didn't do jack-crap.
I'm becoming less and less enamored with Holmgren with each passing day...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I wasn't responding to the blitzing portion. I made an observation about how the Eagles consistently put 8 in the box.
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The Eagles did consistently play 8 in the box, often with single cover on the outside, but also occasionally mixing up their coverages. Also, their starting CBs are Asomugha and Rodgers-Cromartie .... so it's not like they are throwing generic crap out there on the outside.
One thign that really surprised me was how little we used the TE up the seams again yesterday, and hos many times we tried going deep.
He had the pass to Gordon for 28, the pass to Smith for 20, (screen pass) Deep incompletion passes to Little and Benjamin on the next drive, a deep pass to Norwood for 19 yards, and an incomplete deep pass to Gordon.
That's 5 deep passes plus the screen for 20 yards out of 20 attempts. I don't know that we're going to try that same ratio in regular season games.However, if teams play 8+ in the box, then I can see Weeden going deep quite often.
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I think that teams will do this constantly until we can beat them deep for points. Until we can consistently block long enough for a wideout to get deep...said wideout get open enough to throw him the ball...and our QB hit said WR on the money to get us either 7 or into scoring position, we're going to see a lot of 8 in the box and single coverage.
Its been the way to suffocate us since DA left (with the exception of the couple healthy games Delhomme had)...therefore that's what we'll see until we prove we can beat that.
So we're going to run and test deep alot and try to beat them on quick slants and short routes that dont let the zone set up in time...If we hit on some of these itll open up the rest of our offense.
This could bode well for us as we beat Asomugha and Rodgers-Cromartie a few times last game and we could do it more often but in a real game and pull the top off their D
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i agree and also find it a bit humorous that some of our greatest successes on offense last year were Colt just throwing it up for grabs deep (2 TDs in Miami game, etc.).
honestly, if Philly keeps 8-9 in the box, then Weeden should have an audible where he just goes deep into 1on1 coverage. Gordon beat Asomugha on such a ball a couple weeks ago. Let's keep doing it.
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The Eagles did consistently play 8 in the box, often with single cover on the outside, but also occasionally mixing up their coverages.
I'm confused now. I thought having a strong armed, accurate qb was going to force defenses to NOT put 8 or 9 "in the box". I thought we were told that with Weeden, single coverage would be our friend.
Help me out - we have a strong armed, super accurate qb, and teams are still putting 8 in the box?
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Help me out - we have a strong armed, super accurate qb, and teams are still putting 8 in the box?
And he has hurt a few team in preseason by hitting guys deep (Travis Benjamin game 1, Josh Gordon game 3). The more he shows he CAN do that the less opposing teams will want to put 8 in the box.
Last edited by FreeAgent; 08/30/12 03:39 PM.
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The Eagles did consistently play 8 in the box, often with single cover on the outside, but also occasionally mixing up their coverages.
I'm confused now. I thought having a strong armed, accurate qb was going to force defenses to NOT put 8 or 9 "in the box". I thought we were told that with Weeden, single coverage would be our friend.
Help me out - we have a strong armed, super accurate qb, and teams are still putting 8 in the box?
This is a somewhat baited post, but I do just have to say it was one team who did it in the preseason. My ASSumption is they did it to get a look at how Weeden handles pressure and possibly testing out D formations to shut down our run game, since they probably figure we're going to run right at them if Richardson's in and healthy on opening day.
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Add in a more accurate deep ball thrower in Weeden and better deep ball WRs in Benjamin and Gordon and we have a recipe for deep ball success. Not every play mind you, but the ability will stretch out defenses and force more DBs into coverage.
Theyre going to continue to stack the box until we show we can beat it. Gordon and Benjamin are going to soften things up for us big time...more so, Cameron and Moore going up the seam (hopefully) will soften it even more.
Little could have a big season come late in the year if we can stretch defenses.
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Help me out - we have a strong armed, super accurate qb, and teams are still putting 8 in the box?
And he has hurt a few team in preseason by hitting guys deep (Travis Benjamin game 1, Josh Gordon game 3). The more he shows he CAN do that the less opposing teams will want to put 8 in the box.
so did colt..
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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The Eagles weren't a huge blitz team last year. They still led the league in sacks with 50+.
Play 1: Rushed 4. Weeden to Benjamin for 28 yards.
Play 2: Pinkston blown up on the run play
Play 3: False Start on Pinkston
Play 4: (2nd and 19) Rush 4. Weeden to Smith for 20 yards.
Play 5: TO. Run right for 6. Flag on the Eagles Off Sides.
Play 6: Run right for a 2 yard game.
Play 7: Run left for 6 yards.
Play 8: Rushed 4. Weeden to Massaquoi for 12 yards.
Play 9: Run middle for 3 yards.
Play 10: Rushed 4. Weeden to Massaquoi for 6 yards.
Play 11: Offside defense.
Play 12: Holding on Pinkston
Play 13: Hardesty fumble.
yt...first play, 28 yd pass, was to Gordon, not Benjamin
...last play of Browns first series...it was Weeden who fumbled, not Hardesty. To my knowledge, Hardesty had only 1 (too many) fumbles, not 2 fumbles.
Again, the Eagles did not run any fancy defenses against the Browns in the first 3 series. There are no excuses for lack of good blocking and Pinkston was darned near a one man wrecking crew on the first series with all his screw ups, capped off by a holding call on a 1st and goal from the 2 yd line...then Pinkston's "o'lay block" when his man stripped Weeden on an attempted screen pass.
If teams stack the box on the Browns...and by stacking the box, I'm not talking about just playing 8 or 9 in the box...I'm talking about showing and bringing the blitz right up the middle over the Browns guards and center.
The Browns guards are going to be a target of every defense until they prove they can defeat whatever teams throw at them. Weeden is going to look no better than McCoy did if this Oline does not "protect" him and give him enough time to find a receiver.
Trent Richardson is going to look very average if this Offensive line does not block for him.
I can understand and forgive our rookie RT if he has some trouble adjusting. But Pinkston and Lauvao started last year and they have no excuses for poor play.
Last edited by mac; 08/30/12 06:56 PM.
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The Eagles weren't a huge blitz team last year. They still led the league in sacks with 50+.
Play 1: Rushed 4. Weeden to Benjamin for 28 yards.
Play 2: Pinkston blown up on the run play
Play 3: False Start on Pinkston
Play 4: (2nd and 19) Rush 4. Weeden to Smith for 20 yards.
Play 5: TO. Run right for 6. Flag on the Eagles Off Sides.
Play 6: Run right for a 2 yard game.
Play 7: Run left for 6 yards.
Play 8: Rushed 4. Weeden to Massaquoi for 12 yards.
Play 9: Run middle for 3 yards.
Play 10: Rushed 4. Weeden to Massaquoi for 6 yards.
Play 11: Offside defense.
Play 12: Holding on Pinkston
Play 13: Hardesty fumble.
yt...first play, 28 yd pass, was to Gordon, not Benjamin
...last play of Browns first series...it was Weeden who fumbled, not Hardesty. To my knowledge, Hardesty had only 1 (too many) fumbles, not 2 fumbles.
Again, the Eagles did not run any fancy defenses against the Browns in the first 3 series. There are no excuses for lack of good blocking and Pinkston was darned near a one man wrecking crew on the first series with all his screw ups, capped off by a holding call on a 1st and goal from the 2 yd line...then Pinkston's "o'lay block" when his man stripped Weeden on an attempted screen pass.
If teams stack the box on the Browns...and by stacking the box, I'm talking about just playing 8 or 9 in the box...I'm talking about showing and bringing the blitz right up the middle over the Browns guards and center.
The Browns guards are going to be a target of every defense until they prove they can defeat whatever teams throw at them. Weeden is going to look no better than McCoy did if this Oline does not "protect" him and give him enough time to find a receiver.
Trent Richardson is going to look very average if this Offensive line does not block for him.
I can understand and forgive our rookie RT if he has some trouble adjusting. But Pinkston and Lauvao started last year and they have no excuses for poor play.
Interesting.
So you're saying ytown was wrong on some things..........hmmm.
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Yeah ..... I did make a couple of mistakes on names.  I'm sorry. I know that's the first time anyone did that on the board.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Yeah ..... I did make a couple of mistakes on names.
I'm sorry. I know that's the first time anyone did that on the board.
That's Okay YTown you can still be the President
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Help me out - we have a strong armed, super accurate qb, and teams are still putting 8 in the box?
And he has hurt a few team in preseason by hitting guys deep (Travis Benjamin game 1, Josh Gordon game 3). The more he shows he CAN do that the less opposing teams will want to put 8 in the box.
so did colt..
Not even close to what Weeden has shown and Weeden did it against 1st team defenses. Guys like Nnamdin Asomungha.
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Yeah ..... I did make a couple of mistakes on names.
I'm sorry. I know that's the first time anyone did that on the board.
That's Okay YTown you can still be the President
Only if I can make it to all 57 states in my campaign.
Man my brain is just not right with the medication I'm on. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,199
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Help me out - we have a strong armed, super accurate qb, and teams are still putting 8 in the box?
And he has hurt a few team in preseason by hitting guys deep (Travis Benjamin game 1, Josh Gordon game 3). The more he shows he CAN do that the less opposing teams will want to put 8 in the box.
so did colt..
Not even close to what Weeden has shown and Weeden did it against 1st team defenses. Guys like Nnamdin Asomungha.
How big was that fish you caugh? thiiiiiiiiis big? or was it thiis big? Look weeden has a great chance to be good. Weeden made about 5-7 good throws so far this preseason. the rest were all over the place.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Joined: May 2008
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Hall of Famer
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Yeah ..... I did make a couple of mistakes on names.
I'm sorry. I know that's the first time anyone did that on the board.
That's Okay YTown you can still be the President
Only if I can make it to all 57 states in my campaign.
Man my brain is just not right with the medication I'm on.
meh! It happens
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Oh, man - you're not allowed to say that. The company line on here is "Weeden will make the running game better, the receiver's better, the O line better, our defense better, we'll have many 20 plus yard passes, receiver's won't get hurt" etc.
And if you don't buy into that, you'll get "well golly gee, he's just a rookie", and if you don't buy into that you'll get " you're just a colt lover"........and when that doesn't work, you'll get "shurmer sucks the play calling sucks, and it's not our first round draft pick's fault at all. He needs 2 or 3 years to learn the system. He's strong armed, he'll make the d respect our deep threat, even if they still put 8 in the box......"
Once game time comes around, I'll be all for Weeden. But, truth be told, if he isn't half the qb we've been told he would be by a couple of posters, I'll be all over them when they toss out excuses.
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Oh, man - you're not allowed to say that. The company line on here is "Weeden will make the running game better, the receiver's better, the O line better, our defense better, we'll have many 20 plus yard passes, receiver's won't get hurt" etc.
And if you don't buy into that, you'll get "well golly gee, he's just a rookie", and if you don't buy into that you'll get " you're just a colt lover"........and when that doesn't work, you'll get "shurmer sucks the play calling sucks, and it's not our first round draft pick's fault at all. He needs 2 or 3 years to learn the system. He's strong armed, he'll make the d respect our deep threat, even if they still put 8 in the box......"
Once game time comes around, I'll be all for Weeden. But, truth be told, if he isn't half the qb we've been told he would be by a couple of posters, I'll be all over them when they toss out excuses.
I'm fully aware of that
I also think that pointing out how well colt has done in his preseason playing time minus tonight. It is also important to point out how shoddy weeden has done.
24/49 for 297 yards 0 tds 1 int 2 fumbles bq rating of 59.7
his long was 34 yards
colt's 20/29 for 250 yards 1 td 1 int colts long was 42 yards qb rating unknown as of this moment but his 9.2 qb rating on tonight's 5 passes isn't going to help his average.
furthermore... Weeden is no Andrew Luck or RG3 nor is colt
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Once game time comes around, I'll be all for Weeden. But, truth be told, if he isn't half the qb we've been told he would be by a couple of posters, I'll be all over them when they toss out excuses.
I'm not saying you do, I'm just saying it's post like this one, that make you SOUND like a guy who'd rather be "right" about Weeden, then the Browns being successful with him...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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All Pro
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then someone is going to have to answer for this debacle. We had TONS of free cash to upgrade a pathetic situation at both guard positions, and didn't do jack-crap.
I'm becoming less and less enamored with Holmgren with each passing day...
If they decide to once again blow this thing up and bring in new people, wouldn't you at least agree the new regime will have a very good starting point? A lot of young talent which will be a year wiser after this year. TONS of free cash as you have stated to upgrade any holes. I don't see how people can't see that the roster was torn down and improved and to do that while not patching holes with FAs is very impressive. This year we will stink again because of youth, but Holmgren has this franchise going in the right direction.
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I agree. I think as long as thing don't go super duper south this year, H, H, & S will get another shot.. And THAT is when they will throw all the chips down. (Because they have to) Next year we may be that Buffalo style team that sweeps in and steals a prized FA. (Or we may sign a starter and a backup, like the last two years )
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I don't see how people can't see that the roster was torn down and improved
And, if it is blown up - again - it will be torn down and "improved" - again.
That's how it works.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Browns roster 2009:
Quarterbacks
3 Derek Anderson
13 Richard Bartel
5 Brett Ratliff
Running Backs
41 Charles Ali FB
28 James Davis
35 Jerome Harrison
33 Noah Herron
31 Jamal Lewis
47 Lawrence Vickers FB
Wide Receivers
16 Josh Cribbs
88 Mike Furrey
89 Paul Hubbard
9 Lance Leggett
11 Mohamed Massaquoi
2 Jordan Norwood
81 David Patten
80 Brian Robiskie
12 Syndric Steptoe
Tight Ends
82 Steve Heiden
85 John Madsen
84 Robert Royal
86 Martin Rucker
87 Aaron Walker
Offensive Linemen
75 Branndon Braxton T
74 George Foster T
66 Hank Fraley C
62 Dustin Fry C
70 Rex Hadnot G/C
55 Alex Mack C
63 Kurt Quarterman G
61 Isaac Sowells T/G
78 John St. Clair T
65 Eric Steinbach G
73 Joe Thomas T
72 Ryan Tucker T/G
77 Floyd Womack T
Defensive Linemen
90 Kenyon Coleman DE
67 Adam Hoppel DE
93 Louis Leonard NT
69 C. J. Mosley DE
60 Melila Purcell DE
92 Shaun Rogers NT
71 Ahtyba Rubin NT
98 Robaire Smith DE
91 Shaun Smith NT/DE
97 Santonio Thomas DE
99 Corey Williams DE
Linebackers
50 Eric Barton ILB
58 Beau Bell ILB
49 Marcus Benard OLB
96 David Bowens ILB
59 Titus Brown OLB
44 Blake Costanzo ILB
51 Alex Hall OLB
53 Phillip Hunt OLB
52 D'Qwell Jackson ILB
56 Kaluka Maiava ILB
43 Bo Ruud ILB
57 David Veikune OLB/ILB
94 Leon Williams ILB
95 Kamerion Wimbley OLB
Defensive Backs
42 Hamza Abdullah SS
20 Mike Adams FS
37 Don Carey CB
26 Abram Elam SS
40 Roderick Hood CB
29 Corey Ivy CB
30 Gerard Lawson CB
39 Bret Lockett SS
22 Brandon McDonald CB
21 Brodney Pool FS
23 Hank Poteat CB
27 Nick Sorensen SS
24 Eric Wright CB
Special Teams
4 Phil Dawson K
64 Ryan Pontbriand LS
15 Dave Zastudil P
...and now compare this old mess Mangini assembled with today's roster....in terms of talent and age...never forget how DEEP it was torn down before H&H got here....even Savage left over a better roster...that catastrophic offseason of 2009 not only destroyed ANY little improvements by the previous regime, it also set us back another good 2-3 years....we're just starting to stick our neck out of that hole that was created in just 3-4 months early in 2009
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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That shows what? Is it supposed to be isolated proof of something? Do you not think that the same post will be getting made in the future after they tear this version down?
Do you really think that them blowing it up again won't result in another tear down?
Have you been absent for the last 247 regime changes here since 1999 where they have ALL done a tear down and "improved"?
When a new regime comes in, they want to put their stamp on things, they want *their* guys.
It buys them a built-in excuse and if they can turn it into a winner, they get to claim full success... none of that "yeah, you just took what Fred built and continued the progression with it, anybody could have done that".
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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