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See, that's where actually watching the players...uhm...PLAY is convenient. If Weeden would have looked the same yesterday as he did vs GB I would agree with you, as it would have been a pattern, but he really looked like a real pocket QB yesterday... I understand your concern and it IS a legit point, BUT I don't expect the OL to be this bad again in ANY game, they're simply better than that and were the only unit that actually improved during the 2ns half last season...and ALL OLs need some time to gel...that isn't news and that's why I mentioned other examples around the league
Not gonna watch Weeden until the bullets are real, hehe. We're using a dumbed-down offensive playbook...especially against a team we're going to play in a matter of days...and you'll note that I didn't critique Weeden's numbers. By many accounts he played better than the numbers indicated, which is good news, but not gonna make any claims of opinion until the plays count.
As for your belief in the O-line, I've always held your opinion in a higher regard, even if you did go to the school of Diam and graduated with honors in his version of Tact  However, I haven't liked what I've seen from those guys, and reports so far are that they aren't making great strides. I feel that they are not great risks but have left the door open. My big gripe is that we drafted a statue for a QB yet invested only a 2nd pick to upgrade a flat-bad line. If these guards don't do as you believe they will, this FO should be fired mid-season for an idiotic gamble. Quite simply, my gripes come from a head-scratching game-plan where they did squat in free agency, then turned right around and panicked and went all-in with players in the draft, including a pot-headed receiver who is one good toke from missing a large part of the season. If they were willing to invest that heavily for the here-and-now, they should have done it with a veteran guard who could come in and help immediately, or at least be ready should Pinky and Luvy falter.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Its funny how when the o-line doesn't block or receivers drop the ball or we pick up up some stupidpenaltys these QBs all look alike. Weeden looks like McCoy, McCoy looks like Frye, Frye looks like....... Ah Hell lets draft another QB next year.
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The Browns have the worst starting tandem of OG's in the AFC. Lavaou is nothing more than a oversized paperweight. Pinkston is playing out of position.
these 2 are examples of Heckerts ineptness in the draft and his man crush on these 2.
The Browns handed these 2 players their starting jobs this year.
If they would have delved into free agency and brought in a upgrade,we may not be having this conversation.
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Totally agree on doing nothing in FA (wanted Tolbert or Jacobs for RB....both were very cheap and several LBs) and yes if the combination of OL and Weeden is a disaster they deserve to be fired for naivety
I really think though that the Gordon move came when H&H got wind that Lerner was about to deal the Browns to a HeeHaw guy, who cant wait to get rid of them. I think that forced them into win now mode more than anything....if they knew that Lerner would sell they would have been more aggressive in FA, I'm pretty sure. Timing of that sell could not have been worse...I feel like going from Crennel to Mangini in terms of woners...from a nice clueless dude to a hands on boot camp guy...I have that bad feeling that Haslam is a Jerry Jones or Snyder type
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.. " HeeHaw guy .. "
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Come DJ that's pretty low by anyone's standards !
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Maybe it's a semtanics thing or I dont know exactly the connotation of HeeHaw, but going off his politics I think he is that kind of hands on guy who wants bootlickers under him...we could go 12 wins + and I dont see any way Heckert could survive under him, as he has too much his own head....in my mind he's already gone, only that this season will determine how much I will cry for that loss...but I don't expect any guy with competence to work under Haslam, that's jmho though
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Wow this is becoming a funny thread all of a sudden. We go from Ok we all understand that the rookie qb will need time and as the season progresses and people are lining up on the 480 bridge we will be here to help talk you down to doing the same knee jerk reactionary thinking about the FO and other players.  Well I will be here to help talk you guys down when needed too. Gordon this WR your worried about is the best WR we have. He's a rookie he's going to make mistakes. Weeden is a rookie hes shown improvement every week. That is a good sign. Hes going to make mistakes. Pinky had probably the worst game Ive seen him play. Happens that way sometimes and the same can be said for Thomas as well. Im not worried about it. Rookies will look lost at times, lose focus, do dumb things and then they become vets or are cut. Its the natural order of the NFL. I didnt see them reach on any of their picks in the draft and dont think getting the best WR possibly as time goes on of the whole draft class of 2012 is a "panic move". I think its a smart FO doing what they are supposed to do. Already the we needed to overspend on free agents people are starting up again. I cant believe they didnt come to my house and discuss with me exactly what they should do and then do exactly that. WTF they should all be fired right now or mid-season because my hypathictal told you so can still be seen as the truth in my mind. The Browns are going to win 3-8 games this year mark it down. Weeden and Gordon are good enough improvements to make sure we win at least 3 games. If we lose more then that its on the HC and coaching staff,
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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The reason that McCoy is no longer the starter is because he cannot make plays down the field at all.
He will look off a wide open receiver 25 yards down the field, instead opting for the covered receiver 3 yards away. He played scared. NFL QBs cannot play scared.
That's BS.
McCoy is not the starter because Weeden is a better NFL QB.
You do not need to make stuff up to prove that point.
I agree YTown makes stuff up. This isn't really one of them.
McCoy refuses - for a lack of a better term - to go downfield unless everything shakes out perfect on a play. He needs everything around him to be perfect to succeed. He couldn't have made the first throw of the game to Gordon, but the sad thing is he wouldn't even try anyway.
I can't believe more people aren't frustrated watching him play. I would have rather seen Cribbs in there yesterday.
I agree with Django, people form strong affections for mediocre players ... must be that losing culture thing.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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You know Toad, I like you...really do. Looking forward to grabbing that beer we talked about if you ever get your arse out to Vegas. You know I like going against you on this board too as we don't often see eye to eye. But your takes sometimes come across almost like you want the Browns to do bad. I know you are a true fan and want them to do well, but I think somewhere in your subconscious you wouldn't know what to do with yourself if they started winning and that scares the crap out of you ... 
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Maybe it's a semtanics thing or I dont know exactly the connotation of HeeHaw, but going off his politics I think he is that kind of hands on guy who wants bootlickers under him...we could go 12 wins + and I dont see any way Heckert could survive under him, as he has too much his own head....in my mind he's already gone, only that this season will determine how much I will cry for that loss...but I don't expect any guy with competence to work under Haslam, that's jmho though
The Browns getting a "new owner" is the absolute best thing that could happen to this franchise. We now have an owner that:
1. actually cares about his team and will invest the time to make them winners.
2. He will make the right choices and put the right people in place (which by the way Heckert, Holmgren, and Shurmur are NOT the right people)
3. Haslan will probably look to bring over someone from the Steelers Front Office, and perhaps pluck a coach from the Steelers tree that he is famliar with (who knows, maybe Cowher will be willing to come here and work for an owner he worked for previously and probably knows well)
Look for Haslan to change the culture here in cleveland...he is going make that Culture more "Steeler like" which has its roots in old school Cleveland Browns football that Cowher took to Pittsburgh after his years with Marty in cleveland.
Haslan has made it quite clear that he is not going to tolerate this losing nonsense and excuses every year. We finally have an owner like Kraft, Biscotti, Rooney, that won't tolerate excuses and losing...its about darn time!
folks want a winner and cleveland, and we finally got an owner that will be put forth the work to get the goal accomplished! He doens't have to live in cleveland, but i bet you see this guy at every home game actually taking an interest in his team...which is more then we could say for absetee JR
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I don't want anyone from the Steelers FO as I think their drafts recently stunk....I laughed at Mendenhall and that Texas WR I already forgot the name....every "expert" was gaga over that draft, I was happy as those idiots drafted Rb and WR without an OL....and now they drafted a G in round 1 and a lazy bum OT in round 2 and that "next Hampton" NT in round 3/4 that got owned by the Baylor C, Blake...and again the "experts" were all over the Steelers...I love it...I want no part of their scouting or FO right now...the only reason they're a PO contender is named Dick Lebeau...that and lucking into Roethli because we were too dumb to draft him and BUF being too dumb to trade up in front of them on that draft...w/out those 2 we're looking at the Cleveland Browns  Not gonna discuss anything with you any further as it's a waste of time but thanks for cementing my opinion on Weeden with your post...pretty much guaranteed that he'll be good now, lol Btw, how's your boy Mangini doing these days? Wish we had him as our ST Coach
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McCoy refuses - for a lack of a better term - to go downfield unless everything shakes out perfect on a play. He needs everything around him to be perfect to succeed. He couldn't have made the first throw of the game to Gordon, but the sad thing is he wouldn't even try anyway.
Thats not true, i saw McCoy make a ton of deep throws in college with guys covered, and i have seen him bomb a few in the NFL when he actually has time.
McCoy's problem why he won't go deep is because of two reasons:
1. He has no confidence in an OL that has gotten him destroyed the last 2 seasons....i do believe he has been on IR to end the season in 2010 and 2011 thanks to this OL.
2. He has no faith in our receivers to actually get open and catch the stinking ball (we led the league in drops the last 2 years)
lets see you, me, anyone else on this forum stand behind that OL and not hear footsteps or have faith they are going to protect us...yeah right!
by mid-season you will see Weeden developing the same things McCoy did because he will be nervous because his line has gotten him destroyed and he will start hearing footsteps....all QB refuse to go deep and get happy feet when their OL gets the QB stuffing knocked out of them.....
IMo our problems at QB have mostly been because of awful OL....thats like 80% of it..with the other 20% being the receivers...but the OL is the biggest problem with our QB
until this team gets a OL that can actually make and hold a pocket a decent amount of the time...well...it won't matter who is QB....the problem with our OL is the LG, RG, and RT (all 3 of them suck even the rookie...guy is terrible) until we fix that...we jusrt better hope Weeden don't end the season on IR..
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Maybe it's a semtanics thing or I dont know exactly the connotation of HeeHaw, but going off his politics I think he is that kind of hands on guy who wants bootlickers under him...we could go 12 wins + and I dont see any way Heckert could survive under him, as he has too much his own head....in my mind he's already gone, only that this season will determine how much I will cry for that loss...but I don't expect any guy with competence to work under Haslam, that's jmho though
DJ. I know it's just speculation on your behalf, but I think that you could be dead wrong on this one.
Jimmy said that he want's to win now and to me that is not an overwhelming endorsement of your speculation, because winning now normally doesn't in tale a total tear down of the franchise. He strikes me as a pretty methodical guy and he will not be prone to knee jerk reactions from the teams growing pains.
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Yesterday Weeden completed more 20yds outs than McCoy did even try in 2 years...that's fact and I think both have the same OL and mostly the same WRs
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The reason that McCoy is no longer the starter is because he cannot make plays down the field at all.
He will look off a wide open receiver 25 yards down the field, instead opting for the covered receiver 3 yards away. He played scared. NFL QBs cannot play scared.
That's BS.
McCoy is not the starter because Weeden is a better NFL QB.
You do not need to make stuff up to prove that point.
I agree YTown makes stuff up. This isn't really one of them.
McCoy refuses - for a lack of a better term - to go downfield unless everything shakes out perfect on a play. He needs everything around him to be perfect to succeed. He couldn't have made the first throw of the game to Gordon, but the sad thing is he wouldn't even try anyway.
I can't believe more people aren't frustrated watching him play. I would have rather seen Cribbs in there yesterday.
I agree with Django, people form strong affections for mediocre players ... must be that losing culture thing.
I agree too.
When the pocket is clean Weeden looks really really good throwing the ball. We invested plenty of draft picks, time and money to have a very good line. I think we will have a very good one in time.
I'm a little worried about Schwartz because he's being beaten athletically instead of mentally. Lauvao is the exact opposite.
My biggest concern is Pinkston because he's playing in between the best LT in the NFL and a very good center. If you look like crap playing inbetween those two then you're crap. Bottom line.
Finally back to Weeden....
Give him a clean pocket and he's going to tear up defenses. I'm serious about this we'll have more than a few 35+ point games this year. He's going to go up against a few terrible DLs and he's going to look like an All-Pro. I love watching him step into throws.
But if he gets pressure up the middle then this team is DOA on 3rd and 8+.
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Maybe it's a semtanics thing or I dont know exactly the connotation of HeeHaw, but going off his politics I think he is that kind of hands on guy who wants bootlickers under him...we could go 12 wins + and I dont see any way Heckert could survive under him, as he has too much his own head....in my mind he's already gone, only that this season will determine how much I will cry for that loss...but I don't expect any guy with competence to work under Haslam, that's jmho though
DJ. I know it's just speculation on your behalf, but I think that you could be dead wrong on this one.
Jimmy said that he want's to win now and to me that is not an overwhelming endorsement of your speculation, because winning now normally doesn't in tale a total tear down of the franchise. He strikes me as a pretty methodical guy and he will not be prone to knee jerk reactions from the teams growing pains.
I really hope you're right but I'll believe it when I see it...I think the chances of H&H remaining are as good as Mangini's in 2010....they have to win NOW
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And the reason that Weeden is seen as a better NFL QB is because he drives the ball down the field. He doesn't play dink dink dink dink dink dunk dunk dink dink dink.
McCoy actually did do what I described in a game last year. The announcers even talked about it ......... how he had Cribbs, IIRC, wide open down the field, and McCoy looked at him, looked at him, then dinked the ball down instead. Luckily I have pillows specifically to throw at the TV, because I needed all of them on that play.
No BS and no making things up. That was McCoy's biggest problem last year. He played timid under almost every set of circumstances. The only time he was at all aggressive was when teams went to soft zones with no rush at the end of games they had won, and McCoy could stand in, process, see a receiver in a spot, and throw to him. If he could just throw to spots he might be OK, but in the NFL you also have to throw to moving targets as well.
Actually you are correct and also your mistaking Colt form last year.
He has progressed in that area this preseason. 2 of his 7 completions went for 20+ yards.
24 yards to Windsor and 23 yards pass to Norwood in last nights game.
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My biggest concern is Pinkston because he's playing in between the best LT in the NFL and a very good center. If you look like crap playing inbetween those two then you're crap. Bottom line.
I agree that Pinkston is too inconsistent but I still contend that Mack is VASTLY overrated around here....yes, he was a 1st round C, but he's not playing like it....he's not a top 5 or even 10 C imho....he's above AVG usually good at run blocking (though he was crap at that too yesterday, but everyone was crap on that OL yesterday, goes to show that it's a UNIT thing) but below AVG in pass protection....my biggest problem with Mack thogh has been that he doesn't direct/recognize blitzes good enough...he's all about power not brain and your C should be the QB of the OL so to speak
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Maybe it's a semtanics thing or I dont know exactly the connotation of HeeHaw, but going off his politics I think he is that kind of hands on guy who wants bootlickers under him...we could go 12 wins + and I dont see any way Heckert could survive under him, as he has too much his own head....in my mind he's already gone, only that this season will determine how much I will cry for that loss...but I don't expect any guy with competence to work under Haslam, that's jmho though
DJ. I know it's just speculation on your behalf, but I think that you could be dead wrong on this one.
Jimmy said that he want's to win now and to me that is not an overwhelming endorsement of your speculation, because winning now normally doesn't in tale a total tear down of the franchise. He strikes me as a pretty methodical guy and he will not be prone to knee jerk reactions from the teams growing pains.
I really hope you're right but I'll believe it when I see it...I think the chances of H&H remaining are as good as Mangini's in 2010....they have to win NOW
Everything and anything is possible with a new owner for sure but ATM he is saying things like I believe we are on the right track. Building through the Draft is the correct way to do things.
We have had good drafts the past couple years.
All of that speaks of he see's the big picture and knows what is going on is the correct way to do it with the correct people doing it.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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I think that Jimmy did his home work and is still doing so. He couldn't deal with our brass before he sealed the deal with Lerner, but he did have a lot of input from Banner and Banner is very knowledgeable about our brass.
I think that he had a pretty good idea of what the condition was going forward of the franchise he was purchasing.
Last edited by FL_Dawg; 08/25/12 08:06 PM.
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I'm really curious as to what I have "made up".
Prove it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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J/C
IMO our FO has set all of our QB's up for failure. After watching the Colts and Redskins in preseason. The Colts have Wayne and Collie for Luck, The Redskins have Morgan and Garcon for RG3. We have Little and Gordon, that right there is our biggest problem. I know our FO have said they tried to sign some vets, but I ain't buying it. Give Weeden, or even McCoy some real NFL wr's and I think there would be some major improvement.
Our OL sucks, Mack sucks, Pinkston sucks, Lauvao sucks, Swartz sucks, and I never thought I would say it but Joe T sucks. Come on you can't even block Philly's 2nd teamers.
So tired of this crap we put out there, but I'm not going anywhere. One of these days we will again have a good team, I hope!!!
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Everyone and anyone can have a bad day.
Plus, the Eagles acted like they were going to play pretty vanilla so they didn't show anything to the Browns, then they threw just about everything imaginable at them on defense. With no game-planning, it's not a huge surprise that they struggled with different schemes.
The Eagles blitzed 6 or 7 on occasion in yesterday's game. How many teams go all out like that against a team they are playing week 1?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You know Toad, I like you...really do. Looking forward to grabbing that beer we talked about if you ever get your arse out to Vegas. You know I like going against you on this board too as we don't often see eye to eye.
But your takes sometimes come across almost like you want the Browns to do bad. I know you are a true fan and want them to do well, but I think somewhere in your subconscious you wouldn't know what to do with yourself if they started winning and that scares the crap out of you ...
Rish, the inherent problem with being realistic this time of year is the rampant optimism that exists for every team. So when optimism is running rampant, being realistic looks and sounds just like pessimism.
Consider what I've said about Weeden, in spite of my non-belief in him, which is that people will have to accept he's going to have a rough rookie year and it's going to likely be ugly. That sure sounds like pessimism, doesn't it? In truth, when a guy like Dalton has the kind of year he did, that's akin to a football miracle, hehe. Yet because I'm not toting the optimistic company line, I appear to be very pessimistic.
So apply that to our guards.
Fact: They didn't play very well last year.
Optimism: They will be improved from last year and will play better this year.
Pessimism: They sucked last year, they have sucked in the pre-season, and therefore they just flat-out suck and have no chance of ever getting better.
Realism: They sucked last year, they haven't shown much improvement this year, so the odds that they are going to play well this year aren't better than 50/50.
Only one of those is TRULY a negative-Nancy viewpoint, but it sure looks like the realistic viewpoint is pessimistic.
As for the perception that I'm always negative, well, that's because for the most part we've been a very poor team for the last 12 seasons. Since I've only always called'em the way I see'em, I've always seen this team as a bad one. Until they give me reason to believe they will be a good team, my "realistic" viewpoint will sound very negative.
Now as to your thought that I wouldn't know what to do if they started winning, well, I'd love to find out.  Until then I'm going to maintain that we're devoid of talent in relation to the rest of the NFL, and until we get a regime in here that can get it right, we're going to do more losing than winning. I'm now about 90% off of the Holmgren bandwagon, a group that I was never fully on board with. He's a fantastic coach but has been a poor executive and to this point he's made more negative moves than positive ones. If we suck as badly as I think we're going to suck, I won't be sad to see him go. I'll view him in the exact same light as Randy Lerner: They both tried their damnedest but this isn't soccer camp for 8-10 year olds where you get a trophy for trying.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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First off missed the game yesterday and not gonna comment about it.
But I have to agree with somebody who said it allnready... If weeden isn't ready, there is no rule thatnsays we can't let a 1st Rd qb mature n n learn. In fact, that was the norm until 4 years ago.
As far as the Weeden goes... He's not ready and not close. Don't ruin him to satisfy ego of the FO. Horrible footwork, no touch on his passes, game hasn't slowed down enough (deer in headlights effect), and I hear ppl say he got better this, got better that..... I did see improvement(limited) from ps1 - ps2 games. But I just don't see the improvement that the Hatfields do. Or that weeden has out played Colt. I think it's vice versa. And wouldn't expect weeden to out play him at this time.
Having a stronger arm pass does not equal better!!!!! It's like saying someOne taller is automatically better at basketball.
But I also saw a dumbing down of what was run in ps2. For Ps3 it would be hard to judge cuz I don't see us running any of the same plays n 2weeks and I'm sure we didn't display how we gona adjust to wide 9 completely (hopefully) or run the plays we like to counter that defense. So obviously weeden had an uphill battle before the kickoff.
It's funny the Hatfields are now making all the same excuses for weeden, that the mccoys did for not drafting a qb.
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I dont see you as negitive mostly I think alot of your thoughts are spot on. I think alot of people are just starting to realise this is not going to be a great season because we are starting so many rookies.
Some of understand that is part of the process and 1st and 2nd year players are going to need time esp when tossed to the fire so early in their careers.
Those that dont are already after only our first loss this PRE-season looking for someone or something to blame. Its going to be a rough season around here this year.
People will want heads to roll they dont really care whos heads because they have no idea why they are chopping them but they will want them.
Good chance this year I will be laughing at all the silly stuff and over the edge postings because once this all clicks and the final peices are in place they will claim they were right and if only.....insert BS here... we had done that sooner.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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It's true I'm not high on weeden. More becuz of his age and where he was drafted. I do thnk he has potential n helluva arm. But I don't thnk he is close to being ready. I don't want to further compound the mistake of reaching for him by possibly ruining him by rushing him. There are players, that thrive through competition. I believe Trent Richardson is one of them. And despite what all the naysayers say .... McCoy is serviceable as a qb. He can manage a game and has shown improvement within the system and arm strength. He's beaten Brees n Brady. And that is why he has the trade value that u all speak of.
One thng for sure... It's gona be a long season. IMHO a good n growing pains type of season. I still thnk we should win 6 games. We have some good talent on this team. Even tho we may not have all the top notch talent in all the right places yet. This team has some good young depth in key areas. I'm loving this last draft. Stop being pessimists.
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Quote:
People will want heads to roll they dont really care whos heads because they have no idea why they are chopping them but they will want them.
Hehehe...That's very true.
Someone will have to pay the price, they'll say.
I don't know Haslam at all. I can only go by his quotes, and my (un)educated guess is that if there are some rather sizable strides made he might not take the cover off the guillotine. I just don't see how a new owner can come in and see that after three years under Holmgren we're one of the worst teams in the league. Sure, we can say it's because we're one of the youngest, and that'd be a very true statement, but would this new owner, who just paid one billion dollars ( :say what: ) say "Hmmm...Sure, I'll gamble another couple of years with this regime."
I don't think so.
There is no more "boom or bust" QB that came out of this class. Weeden can be a star, but he can easily be Derek Anderson. God I hope he isn't Derek Anderson...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Sure, we can say it's because we're one of the youngest, and that'd be a very true statement, but would this new owner, who just paid one billion dollars ( :say what: ) say "Hmmm...Sure, I'll gamble another couple of years with this regime."
Browns fans are going find out if Jimmy Haslam is any different than the previous owners, Al and Randy Lerner.
If Haslam come in a rips it all up, with mass firings, he will be just like the other owners and somewhat of a "hypocrit".
It's obvious that Haslam has done some research into the Browns recent history, since their return in 1999.
In early August, Haslam gave an interview to Peter King and one of the most interesting points Haslam made, was identifying what he believed was a major reason for the Browns lack of success since their return in 1999, saying the Browns have averaged a new head coach every 2.8 yrs.
Haslam commented that he felt every coaching change sets a franchise back 3 or 4 years.
If fans have listened to Haslam, he has agreed with the need to rebuild the team via the draft. I believe Haslam understands and agrees with the direction Lerner, Holmgren and Heckert have taken in the rebuilding of the entire team via the draft.
In short, Holmgren and Heckert have the Browns on a path that Haslam supports and believes will result in success... at least that is what Haslam is saying. Now, will Haslam change his tune and become part of the problem...or will Haslam backup his claims and beliefs by following through with what was started in 2010.
I have little doubt that Holmgren laid out the strategy of the rebuild and the timeline to success.
Is year 3 of the rebuilding process, when the new owner should expect and demand results from the 5 yr rebuilding program?
Is the 2012 season when Haslam should expect winning football?...when the Browns turned their rebuilding focus away from the defensive side of the ball and drafted a QB, RB in the first round and a RT and WR in the 2nd round (reg/supplemental)...all expected to be starters for years to come.
Is the 2012 season, when the Browns roster will be one the youngest or 2nd youngest roster in the NFL, when Haslam should expect winning football? A few weeks ago, I took the time to figure out the average experience level of the Browns starting offense...it came out to something like 2.3 yrs per man, with our QB, RB and RT having 0 yrs of experience.
Is the 2012 season, when the Browns with one of least experienced offensive teams, which will be playing one of the toughest schedules in the NFL...is that the year Haslam should expect winning football from his team?
Browns fans are going to find out just how football smart Jimmy Haslam is and if he has the conviction of his own stated beliefs when it comes to rebuilding the Browns.
As for Weeden's success at playing QB...he will be as good as his offensive line allows him to be...no different than any other NFL QB.
If the Browns Oline protects their "pocket passer", he will have a good year.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I don't know Haslam either and am going off his quotes as well, but I really feel he wants to stick with this FO and not make any major changes right now because he wants there to be some consistency... I think for the first few years he's going to come in and make big changes on the marketing/business side of things rather than the football side.
I personally think Holmgren will get to finish off his contract (which i think is only 2 more years) and at the end of that contract they'll re-evaluate and see if Holmgren wants to come back and if Jimmy wants him.
Though, with that said, if we win 5 games or less the next two years I wouldn't fault the new owner for blowing it up... but I think with how much young talent we have we (hopefully) are on the right road to be strong for years to come... I'm hoping we've gotten through our growing pains... it'll really depend on how good our scouts have been evaluating these young guys.... we'll see....
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Quote:
Now, will Haslam change his tune and become part of the problem...or will Haslam backup his claims and beliefs by following through with what was started in 2010.
I wouldn't fault him for 'blowing it up' IF he wants to go out and bring in people that he believes in...
but, with everything he has said, it sounds like he won't make a ton of changes because he has a ton of respect for H&H and he has said he needs to get more football knowledge... unless he's just blowing smoke, I really don't see a lot of football changes in the next two years....
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Mac I think that we see the same things at work here.
Jimmy Haslam did not dive in head first into this venture of becoming a NFL franchise owner and I don't think that he would have bought a lemon expecting to make lemonade either .
Much of the outsider speculations are based on what new owners have done in the past, but Jimmy did not dive into this venture head first. He tested the water firstly by buying a share of a proven and stable franchise (as much as it pains me to state as such).
I'm certain that he could have pulled the trigger much sooner then he did, but he wanted to wait for an oppritunaty that he felt was right for him. One that he felt like there was something there to build on and not one to tear down and start over from scratch.
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Until then I'm going to maintain that we're devoid of talent in relation to the rest of the NFL, and until we get a regime in here that can get it right, we're going to do more losing than winning.
This is probably where we disagree Toad....I've been known as a pessimist too around here and I still think that you're fighting windmills when going up agains the "optimism around here"....what optimism? I think most here understand that we're a 4-7 win team...and every NFL team that has this prognosis can land at 2-3 wins if a lot goes wrong during the season.
What irks me and probably others too is your opinion that we're a bottom 3rd team because of lack of talent.....well, maybe semantics here, but I don't see a 4-7w team with dozens of 30yo washed up never beens we had under Mangini....we actually HAVE some talent, some HIGH ceiling players, who are very young and just started their career. Sure, not everyone will reach their ceiling, some will bust and if we win 4 games that's our talent level for THAT particular season....
Just to be clear: is that what you mean with "lack of talent"? Is there no difference for you in talent comparing this roster to Mangini's even though both will have a very similar record? While I agree on the W-L prognosis I also think that this roster has some long term/projected talent that is still untapped. I'm NOT saying that this roster is good enough if kept for 3 years but I actually see a PLAN that aims at high ceiling prospects and I think this plan has a much better shot at working than drafting blocking WRs in round 2, ST LBs in round 4, low ceiling specs all around and filling out half the roster with no talent ST bubble players from around the NFL
So, yes we will most probably be a loser again this season...everyone realizes that I think, but I and many other are of the opinion that this might be a worthwile losing season....Ventrone is still Ventrone next season, there's no uspide in that "plan" but Taylor, Haden, Sheard, JMJ, Wade, Cameron, TRich, Weeden, Schwartz, Gordon, Little will most probably be much better players with experience and most of them already proved to be decent NFL players already
No?
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There is no more "boom or bust" QB that came out of this class. Weeden can be a star, but he can easily be Derek Anderson. God I hope he isn't Derek Anderson...
He's already better.....as a passer he reminds me of Cutler
#gmstrong
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General reply:
The OL had a miserable game as did Hardesty and Little but you cant put their mistakes on Weeden. Weeden's mistakes were putting the ball on the ground twice and failing to process the defensive sets quickly enough in certain situations. Now we also have to remember, he has never seen many of the defensive designs that are being thrown at him in preseason.
His ball placement was outstanding. I thought he stepped into the pocket and showed a willingness to take the hit to deliver the football. He made throws that honestly were WOW throws. As a unit it is not there yet but the individual play was more than acceptable. If you really watch each individual play, you will come away surprised at how well the guy really looked.
I also thought Colt played a pretty good game. The defense was dropping back into a zone and leaving him lanes to run. He bounced a pass but overall it was a good showing.
Colt and Weeden are as different in skill set as daylight and dark but both can be effective in running an NFL offense. Weeden is a pure pocket passer and Colt is looking to get outside the pocket. That does produce another challenge for the OL as well.
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This is probably where we disagree Toad....I've been known as a pessimist too around here and I still think that you're fighting windmills when going up agains the "optimism around here"....what optimism? I think most here understand that we're a 4-7 win team...
One quote but two different topics to separate, so...
1) "Devoid of talent." I don't believe we have as much talent, tapped or untapped, as the average NFL team. Talent, unfortunately, can be an ambiguous term meaning both ability and production. A guy like Kelly Gregg in his prime didn't have much "talent" but had great production. A guy like Hardesty has great "talent" but no production, hence the ambiguous nature of the definition. So to try and answer you in the most straight-forward and clear way possible, I don't believe we match up against most NFL teams in that regard.
2) You asked "what optimism?" I was speaking to Rishuz's comments which come from a broader range than just the 2012 season. From that context, I've always gone against the optimism that runs rampant this time of year. Now if the question comes from the angle you're presenting, which is the common view for this year, I would agree that most fans have us pegged as a 4-6 win team. I would call 7 wins exceedingly optimistic 
MAC, it's my opinion that you've taken broad statements by Haslam and fit them into your definition and interpretation of what's been wrong with the Browns. If Haslam says:
"The problem with Cleveland has been the turnover of the staff every 3 years."
You decided that it meant we've fired regimes too quickly and haven't stayed the course. That has been your opinion for years, and thus you've just stated if he fires the staff after a bad year he'll then become just like the rest of the losers who have called the shots.
Balogny, I say.
The problem with the ownership over the years hasn't been that they've pulled the plug on people too early. They have given various people PLENTY of time, only to watch them fail year after year.
The REAL problem has been that ownership hasn't been competent in their ability to select the right people to run the show. Most, by now, fully understand that. The only guy right now of ANY of our former shot-callers who has a similar job is Romeo Crennel, and right now the Chiefs look like a bunch of bumbling dopes with Crennel not having any answers.
You're not gonna get away with labeling Haslam as just another bum of an owner if he doesn't go along with your vision of what the Browns should do. As down as I'll be on Holmgren if this team doesn't make great strides in development, I'm not going to nail Haslam to the cross if he chooses to keep him.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
MAC, it's my opinion that you've taken broad statements by Haslam and fit them into your definition and interpretation of what's been wrong with the Browns. If Haslam says:
"The problem with Cleveland has been the turnover of the staff every 3 years."
You decided that it meant we've fired regimes too quickly and haven't stayed the course. That has been your opinion for years, and thus you've just stated if he fires the staff after a bad year he'll then become just like the rest of the losers who have called the shots.
toad...When the Browns new owner gives an interview to one of the top reporters in sports, Peter King...and he says this...
"They've averaged a new coach once every 2.8 years (since the franchise returned to Cleveland in 1999) and that's just not a good recipe," Haslam told SI.com's Peter King. "One thing I learned from watching the Steelers is the importance of consistency in coaching, and how much it sets you back when you're always making a change. When you change coaches, it can be a three- or four-year deal to get back."
web page
...I take the man at his word. One of my first impressions of Haslam...he is not big into making idle comments just garner attention. Jimmy Haslam appears to be a man of his convictions and I will continue to listen and believe in his words until he gives me reason to believe he can't be trusted or his word can't be trusted.
Do I take it to mean that Haslam will make no changes...hell no!
I look for Haslam to make some changes but I do not expect him to rip everything up and start all over, setting the franchise back, rather than moving it forward.
I believe Haslam will make some additions to help continue the rebuilding process, knowing we are nowhere near done rebuilding the team. This is still only year 3 of Holmgren/Heckert's 5 year plan and I'm confident Holmgren laid out the entire 5 year plan when he had dinner with Haslam the night before his introduction to the media.
Haslam knows he bought the youngest team in the NFL and they now need experience before they can compete for anything.
I also realize the Browns have some young and impatient fans (and media) that believe in ripping everything up and starting over because the team didn't win. There is a faction of the fan base that thinks with their hearts and not their brain and when the Browns do not win, they are always looking for "someone to blame"...someone to hold responsible.
Some fans seem to believe if the Browns don't win in 2012, the new owner needs to fire everyone...yea, that will solve the problem. Thankfully, Haslam seems to understand, emotional decisions, such as firing everyone, would do more harm to the franchise than good.
We will find out more about Haslam once he becomes the official majority owner of the Browns but so far, I agree with his comments above.
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Browns rookie QB Brandon Weeden focuses on limiting his fumblesBy Nate Ulrich Beacon Journal sports writer August 27, 2012 - 08:39 AM BEREA: Rookie quarterback Brandon Weeden has been strip-sacked three times in roughly five quarters of preseason action, but he’s not planning on obsessing over his recent fumbling problem. “I’m not going to carry a football around with me at night,” Weeden said Sunday after practice. “I’m not going to do that. If you start thinking about all of that other stuff, you get in trouble. … It’s not something I’m going to lose a lot of sleep over, but I’m definitely going to take it seriously, and when I can work on it, I’m definitely going to work on it.” The Browns desperately need Weeden to solve his problems with protecting the ball before their Sept. 9 rematch against the Philadelphia Eagles in the regular-season opener for both teams. The Eagles’ quick pass rushers manhandled the Browns’ offensive line and tormented Weeden Friday during the Browns’ 27-10 exhibition loss. “I think ball security is primary for anybody who touches the ball, especially the quarterback, who touches it every play,” Browns coach Pat Shurmur said. “He knows that we drill that. A great deal of fumbles in this league involve the quarterback in the pocket, and he knows that. We drill that and it’s very important for him to maneuver in the pocket where he doesn’t fumble, and if he’s getting tackled or sacked, he needs to wrap the ball up. He knows that.” Shurmur’s last chance to pit Weeden against an opposing defense before the real games begin will be Thursday night, when the Browns host the Chicago Bears in the preseason finale. But if Weeden faces the Bears, it probably won’t be for long. Shurmur said the starters have played more than 90 snaps in the past two exhibition games, and he’s pleased with that workload. “There’s a chance that [the starters] could play,” Shurmur said. “There’s a chance. When I send the ones out there, there is a very good chance you won’t see some guys.” Regardless, Weeden knows hanging onto the football is a top priority. “You just have to have a death grip on it,” Weeden said. “That’s all there is to it.” Weeden fumbled twice Friday against the Eagles. On first-and-goal at the Eagles’ 12-yard line, Weeden faked a handoff, turned to look for running back Montario Hardesty on a screen and was hit immediately by defensive tackle Derek Landri. The ball was knocked loose by Landri’s swiping left hand and recovered by Eagles defensive end Trent Cole with 9:38 left in the first quarter. During screens, offensive linemen are often supposed to hold their blocks momentarily before letting the defensive linemen go. Then they’re supposed to set up blocks downfield. The timing, though, is key. Browns left guard Jason Pinkston released Landri too soon, and Weeden had only a split-second to react. “I was supposed to turn, basically do a play-fake to my left, get my head around, and by the time I tried to get my head around, [Landri] hit me in the chin,” Weeden said. “It all happened pretty fast. I think Pinkston, we talked about it yesterday. … He said he let him go a bit fast and he watched it five or six times and said it made his stomach hurt. Like I said, it happens. “[The offensive linemen] played well for me. They’ve been playing well this entire preseason, and I’m not going to let one little play discount how well they’ve played. He’s doing a great job. That was a play we hadn’t really run a bunch against our defense in practice.” On third-and-15 at the Browns’ 15, Weeden took a shotgun snap, looked downfield and held the ball in his right hand down by his waist as he absorbed defensive end Darryl Tapp’s hit from the blind side. The ball shot out and was recovered by Browns tight end Jordan Cameron with 2:49 left in the first quarter. Tapp beat left tackle Joe Thomas with a pass rush to the outside. Running back Montario Hardesty didn’t help Thomas with a chip block, even though Weeden said he was supposed to. “The ball got a little low on me, and he tackled me from the waist,” Weeden said. “I worked on it today, just keeping the ball up a little bit. … I had the ball up high, and as I stepped up, the ball came down to my belly button, and I just reached for my waist and tomahawked through it. Those [defensive linemen] are strong. They’re 300 pounds, and they’re stronger than I am. I’ve got to have good ball security up top, and I think it’s more of a want-to thing. I’ve just got to get it done. There’s no other way around it.” Weeden’s first fumble was in the preseason opener Aug. 10 against the Detroit Lions. On third-and-15, Lions defensive end Willie Young beat rookie right tackle Mitchell Schwartz with an inside pass-rush move and hit Weeden as he tried to throw. The ball squirted away, officials called it a fumble and the ruling stood after a replay review. Thomas, though, is confident that Weeden will get a grip. “I think any good quarterback, one of the attributes he has is going to be able to feel the rush and slide right, slide left, up, back, kind of feel the rush without having to take his eyes off downfield,” Thomas said. “But I think Brandon has done a nice job, and I think he’s going to continue to improve.”
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We had a lot of fumbles from the QB position last year as well. I do wonder somewhat if it is coaching. McCoy had 11 fumbles last year (losing 2) in 13 games, and Wallace had 1 in limited action. (lost)
That seems like a lot of fumbling by the QBs to me.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Mac, those are rational thoughts. I agree with them. They are fundamentally different, though, than what you'd said earlier, which is essentially that if Haslam doesn't stay the course he's not a smart owner (paraphrasing).
So here's the question I might pose to anyone who'd care to answer it: If this team plays very bad football and doesn't show improvement outside the realm of wins and losses and Haslam blows the thing up, would people view him as a bum or allow him to rebuild the organization in his image?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Brandon Weeden named starting QB
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