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If Cleveland is blown up again I am done. What this organization has done to the fan base borders on criminal. I don't want an all new defensive scheme, I don't want to change the offense, I do not want a wholesale change in players. If they want to drop coaches I can understand as long as they don't change what seems to be a very good starting point for a good team in the coming years..
#gmstrong
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Sometimes, this organization reminds me of a toddler that has just discovered how a light switch works.
Organization or fanbase?
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Here we go....so far in this thread alone we have Haslem, Haslaam and Haslam. For a short time anyway, we'll have TripleH....Haslem, Holgrem and Heckart.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Sweet. 
Been tired of Holmgren playing the control freak and stepping in when he has something he really wants to do. That's a recipe for disaster as an executive.
His tenure as the Seahawks shot-caller wasn't very good, and in year three as the Browns President his tenure hasn't been very good.
If we're going to have a new owner, he needs to have his own people in place. If Holmgren keeping Mangini taught fans anything, it was the truth in that statement.
Good, good I say. We get a guy in here that has a PROVEN track record of success as an executive.
Mike Holmgren: HOF caliber coach, imminently underwhelming as an executive.
Thanks for trying, Mike. Wish you could have gotten the job done.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Wow, how times have changed. Remember how excited everyone was when Holmgren came aboard?
Not everyone.
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I really wish there was a limit on the number of times this organization could push the reset button.
You can go directly to people named "Lerner" for the root of that problem. Now that there isn't anyone with that name associated with the organization, we stand a greater chance of stopping the finger from hitting the Eject button...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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What about the reject button ? 
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It's gone. Been hit too many times and has cracked in half...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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. . . and Hardesty. 
Hey, first thing I said is I'm all for keeping him.
the new owners love hardesty too
Joe Thomas #73
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This fanbase has become the epitome of terrible. Complaining about blowing it up every two years, then complaining about sucking after not giving anyone enough time.
Let's get rid of Heckert because he isn't perfect ... because he drafted Hardesty and Marecic. GMAFB
Sometimes I think this fanbase deserves every bit of misery it gets. And it gets worse and worse every year.
I agree. These kids on D yesterday played their asses off and instead of a fanbase being proud of them, it is ripping on them. Apparently the only reason the Defense wasnt blown out of the stadium was because Andy Reid is an idiot. Didnt have anything to do with how they played.
I am just about done with the message board stuff. I think the rational fan that evaluates performance has been replaced with a bunch of whining, self absorbed, spoiled brats that expect everything to be perfect.
Reminds me of the last time I stopped at Dairy Queen, I saw a young mom standing in line counting her change out to get her little girl a milk shake. the mom was maybe 19 or 20 and the kid was probably 5 or 6 anyway they forget to put the whipcream and cherry on top of the shake and the kid throws it in the floor.
That is honestly, how I see this fan base anymore.
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This fanbase has become the epitome of terrible. Complaining about blowing it up every two years, then complaining about sucking after not giving anyone enough time.
Let's get rid of Heckert because he isn't perfect ... because he drafted Hardesty and Marecic. GMAFB
Sometimes I think this fanbase deserves every bit of misery it gets. And it gets worse and worse every year.
I agree. These kids on D yesterday played their asses off and instead of a fanbase being proud of them, it is ripping on them. Apparently the only reason the Defense wasnt blown out of the stadium was because Andy Reid is an idiot. Didnt have anything to do with how they played.
I am just about done with the message board stuff. I think the rational fan that evaluates performance has been replaced with a bunch of whining, self absorbed, spoiled brats that expect everything to be perfect.
Reminds me of the last time I stopped at Dairy Queen, I saw a young mom standing in line counting her change out to get her little girl a milk shake. the mom was maybe 19 or 20 and the kid was probably 5 or 6 anyway they forget to put the whipcream and cherry on top of the shake and the kid throws it in the floor.
That is honestly, how I see this fan base anymore.
Sadly I have to agree.
Maybe they need blown up and fiered.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif)
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I think the rational fan that evaluates performance has been replaced with a bunch of whining, self absorbed, spoiled brats that expect everything to be perfect.
So when "whining, self absorbed, spoiled brat" fans complain about a regime that has gone 9-24, looks poised for another miserable season and has failed to put together any semblance of offense despite it being their specialty... they're not evaluating performance? 
We're... we're good?
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Considering they were bitching and whining about EVERYTHING before we played our first preseason game, whining, crying brats seem more fitting.
If you want to bitch and complain, atleast do it about things that actually happened. QB played like crap. The OL i thought at times played well and at times played poorly. Receivers I thought were pretty good minus the HUGE drop by Little. The D played great.
Now I come on here and the sky is falling everything sucks. Shurmur sucks, Holmgren sucks, Heckert drafted Marecic and he sucks too. It has just gotten old fast.
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I think the rational fan that evaluates performance has been replaced with a bunch of whining, self absorbed, spoiled brats that expect everything to be perfect.
So when "whining, self absorbed, spoiled brat" fans complain about a regime that has gone 4-13, looks poised for another miserable season and has failed to put together any semblance of offense despite it being their specialty... they're not evaluating performance?
This team has never been built, so yes.
Mangini's team was the oldest, slowest and least talented team in the League and there is no 'realistic' quick fix, to fix that in one or even two years. 
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I'm very happy with the defense's performance, but I think it's a perfectly valid observation to say that the Eagles called a poor game.
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No surprise there. It will be interesting to see what Heckert does (assuming he stays) without the Walrus looking over this shoulder. I think I read that Banner isn't really a football ops kind of guy so Tom should be able to run things without Holmgren's interference. I kinda like that prospect. 
I think Holmgren is a good guy and a very good NFL coach. However, I think he's proven that he's not a particularly adept NFL executive (both here and Seattle). We'll see...
This right here. Some on here really believe that Holmgren has not had any input on the draft but I believe both Weeden and McCoy were his picks. He also "hand picked" Shurmur and what we see on the offensive side of the ball is a direct result of that action. As an executive, Holmgren is not to the same standard as his coaching pedigree.
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I DID gripe about our qb playing terrible. And I got called a whiny kid, or brat. Another poster put it in less polite terms.
Our qb went out and did exactly what the self proclaimed "experts" told us he would not do - and when faced with the reality of what happened yesterday, the excuses started, and then the "name calling".
I have NOT called for anyone's head - not Weeden, not holmgren, heckert, or shurmer.
I stated what I saw - and people attacked me for it. I guess it only shows how grade school they are.
I will continue to voice my opinion - good or bad - of all players.
I'm just in disbelief - based on what some posters have said about Weeden, that he came out and laid an egg like he did.
I was 100% of the opinion that Weeden gets the whole year (before the season started, that is), but if he continues this horridness - he just can't get the whole season.
We'll find out in the coming weeks - but I guarantee the one thing we were promised - PROMISED - was how accurate he was. He showed yesterday that accuracy is NOT a forte.
It's one game. I get that. We had no running game, I get that.
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As an executive, Holmgren is not to the same standard as his coaching pedigree.
None of you here who profess this know what the hell you’re even talking about.
Holmgren has forgotten more, then 10 of you arm chair GM blowhards will ever know.
The Fact is that nobody in this business is ever 100% correct all of the time ... it's not an exact science when humans are a part of any equation.
His job is not to evaluate talent here as President ... his job was to bring others in and delegate that authority to them and that he has in every regard and aspect of a NFL franchise.
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This fanbase has become the epitome of terrible. Complaining about blowing it up every two years, then complaining about sucking after not giving anyone enough time.
Let's get rid of Heckert because he isn't perfect ... because he drafted Hardesty and Marecic. GMAFB
Sometimes I think this fanbase deserves every bit of misery it gets. And it gets worse and worse every year.
I agree. These kids on D yesterday played their asses off and instead of a fanbase being proud of them, it is ripping on them. Apparently the only reason the Defense wasnt blown out of the stadium was because Andy Reid is an idiot. Didnt have anything to do with how they played.
I am just about done with the message board stuff. I think the rational fan that evaluates performance has been replaced with a bunch of whining, self absorbed, spoiled brats that expect everything to be perfect.
Reminds me of the last time I stopped at Dairy Queen, I saw a young mom standing in line counting her change out to get her little girl a milk shake. the mom was maybe 19 or 20 and the kid was probably 5 or 6 anyway they forget to put the whipcream and cherry on top of the shake and the kid throws it in the floor.
That is honestly, how I see this fan base anymore.
Sadly I have to agree.
Maybe they need blown up and fiered.
Nobody is complaining about the defense. Just wanted to correct that.
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I saw a regime building an entire roster. They weren't just patching a hole. I think they have done a marvelous job in building the team. There is work to be done however. This was the oldest and slowest roster in the entire NFL and there was no upside when 70% of your team is ready to retire.
Now we have the youngest roster and they are holding their own without the benefit of any help from the QB. We won 4 games last year and lost another 7 games by less than a TD. Yesterday we lost by 1 to the team everyone is predicting to go to the Super Bowl and we did it with absolutely horrible play from the QB and an ineffective run game.
Weeden may or may not be the answer. I was not a fan of drafting him but I do understand why they fell in love with the guy. I thought Colt showed a lot of improvement in preseason in comparison to last year. Is either guy the answer? Probably not to be honest. I worry that Weeden may be a finished product. I do think Colt may improve with more time in the O, but then you are back to how much can he improve.
If we have to draft another QB so be it but while we are looking for the superstar QB, this regime is building a pretty good team around whomever ends up the QB.
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his QB finding track record was abysmal
Can you name me Banners success in finding QBs ?
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How he was stripped of GM duties
Banner has never even had GM duties, outside of the contract aspect, and he is locally known for being a tightwad that led to DJs holdout last year. Reid himself had to step in and get McCoys contract done. Wait and see what happens in Cleveland when he doesnt want to pay LBers or WRs.
Banner is going to end up with more power and responsibility here than he ever had before. So once again he will be learning on the job.
I dread this move, wether any one else sees it or not, we are taking a huge leap backwards again. Annother new offensive system again, another reason failure will be acceptable next season, again.
The Browns have become a circus sideshow.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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I could still see a situation where Banner takes over the business side and Holmgren controls the football side. That would put both in control of what they do best.
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As an executive, Holmgren is not to the same standard as his coaching pedigree.
None of you here who profess this know what the hell you’re even talking about.
Holmgren has forgotten more, then 10 of you arm chair GM blowhards will ever know.
The Fact is that nobody in this business is ever 100% correct all of the time ... it's not an exact science when humans are a part of any equation.
His job is not to evaluate talent here as President ... his job was to bring others in and delegate that authority to them and that he has in every regard and aspect of a NFL franchise.
That's right. I'm crazy for having a differing opinion that you. In fact Paul Allen is crazy too for relinquishing Holmgren from his GM role in Seattle.  
You are right, his job isn't to evaluate the talent of players, however he is supposed to bring in talent within the coaching staff. Shurmur was his guy and Pat really looks like he has his stuff together on game day
I'll admit, he did a great thing bring in Jauron, but 1) the hiring of Shurmur, 2) not keeping Brad Seely on staff as ST coach (we've not been the same since, look at SF ST now) and 3) the influence on picking McCoy and Weeden are all on Holmgren as well.
But hey, I'm just a fan posting on here that disagrees with you.
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I saw a regime building an entire roster. They weren't just patching a hole. I think they have done a marvelous job in building the team. There is work to be done however. This was the oldest and slowest roster in the entire NFL and there was no upside when 70% of your team is ready to retire.
I did too.....man, Washington put together one helluva offense together overnight in 1 offseason by hiring vets and bringing in a real QB
Sorry, couldn't help it. Too soon?
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As an executive, Holmgren is not to the same standard as his coaching pedigree.
None of you here who profess this know what the hell you’re even talking about.
Holmgren has forgotten more, then 10 of you arm chair GM blowhards will ever know.
The Fact is that nobody in this business is ever 100% correct all of the time ... it's not an exact science when humans are a part of any equation.
His job is not to evaluate talent here as President ... his job was to bring others in and delegate that authority to them and that he has in every regard and aspect of a NFL franchise.
That's right. I'm crazy for having a differing opinion that you. In fact Paul Allen is crazy too for relinquishing Holmgren from his GM role in Seattle.
You are right, his job isn't to evaluate the talent of players, however he is supposed to bring in talent within the coaching staff. Shurmur was his guy and Pat really looks like he has his stuff together on game day
I'll admit, he did a great thing bring in Jauron, but 1) the hiring of Shurmur, 2) not keeping Brad Seely on staff as ST coach (we've not been the same since, look at SF ST now) and 3) the influence on picking McCoy and Weeden are all on Holmgren as well.
But hey, I'm just a fan posting on here that disagrees with you.
Seattle hasn't been to a SB since either, so what's that prove? Nothing
We have one of the most experienced Coaching staffs in the League and imo much of the criticism directed towards Shurmur is premature and unwarranted.
Crazy … well that’s your words not mind, but hey like people say, if the shoe fits…..
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Shurmur is calling plays that get receivers open and Weeden overthrows them by 10 yards so its Shurmur's fault for the overthrow. Gotta know how it works. I had people telling me how much of a dud Chud was and how we needed a new OC everytime DA threw one a mile over someone's head as well.
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I saw a regime building an entire roster. They weren't just patching a hole. I think they have done a marvelous job in building the team. There is work to be done however. This was the oldest and slowest roster in the entire NFL and there was no upside when 70% of your team is ready to retire.
I did too.....man, Washington put together one helluva offense together overnight in 1 offseason by hiring vets and bringing in a real QB
Sorry, couldn't help it. Too soon?
It remains to be seen how they will maintain that when the hard salary cap is enacted or how far it will even take them.
I find it insane how so much speculation is made out of one fricken game.
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I saw a regime building an entire roster. They weren't just patching a hole. I think they have done a marvelous job in building the team. There is work to be done however. This was the oldest and slowest roster in the entire NFL and there was no upside when 70% of your team is ready to retire.
I did too.....man, Washington put together one helluva offense together overnight in 1 offseason by hiring vets and bringing in a real QB
Sorry, couldn't help it. Too soon?
It remains to be seen how they will maintain that when the hard salary cap is enacted or how far it will even take them.
I find it insane how so much speculation is made out of one fricken game.
Didn't you know the Redskins are winning the next 3 superbowls... they already have the rings made up and everything 
<><
#gmstrong
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I saw a regime building an entire roster. They weren't just patching a hole. I think they have done a marvelous job in building the team. There is work to be done however. This was the oldest and slowest roster in the entire NFL and there was no upside when 70% of your team is ready to retire.
I did too.....man, Washington put together one helluva offense together overnight in 1 offseason by hiring vets and bringing in a real QB
Sorry, couldn't help it. Too soon?
It remains to be seen how they will maintain that when the hard salary cap is enacted or how far it will even take them.
I find it insane how so much speculation is made out of one fricken game.
Didn't you know the Redskins are winning the next 3 superbowls... they already have the rings made up and everything
Yeah and they will be playing the Bengals, who are getting throttled right 40-13 now by the RATS lol.
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Shurmur is calling plays that get receivers open and Weeden overthrows them by 10 yards so its Shurmur's fault for the overthrow. Gotta know how it works. I had people telling me how much of a dud Chud was and how we needed a new OC everytime DA threw one a mile over someone's head as well.
I feel the same frustration as you Mourg.
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Maybe they need blown up and fiered.
if you blow them up first, then there is no point ot firing them
#gmstrong
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Maybe they need blown up and fiered.
if you blow them up first, then there is no point ot firing them
Well if they can, so can I
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Maybe they need blown up and fiered.
if you blow them up first, then
there is no point ot firing them
I imagined bodies flying! Lol.
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Maybe they need blown up and fiered.
if you blow them up first, then
there is no point ot firing them
I imagined bodies flying! Lol.
It's not for the faint at heart
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Maybe they need blown up and fiered.
if you blow them up first, then
there is no point ot firing them
I imagined bodies flying! Lol.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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As an executive, Holmgren is not to the same standard as his coaching pedigree.
--------------
None of you here who profess this know what the hell you’re even talking about.
The facts beg to differ, dude.
As a coach, Holmgren had few piers in his day, but as a GM in Seattle, he managed a losing record, going 31-33 and saw Paul Allen fire him as GM.
Here in Cleveland, he hasn't done anything more than he did in Seattle. It can be argued he's done quite a bit less. All we have are promises of talent, not results, and by results, I don't mean wins.
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Holmgren has forgotten more, then 10 of you arm chair GM blowhards will ever know.
I didn't forget how to look up his losing record as a GM in Seattle and the exact date he was demoted. 
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His job is not to evaluate talent here as President ... his job was to bring others in and delegate that authority to them and that he has in every regard and aspect of a NFL franchise.
Except he DID evaluate talent and force his will upon Heckert. He admitted that himself, and that's the singular biggest reason I call him a failure. He threw his weight around when he wanted McCoy, and McCoy failed. That's a black-eye he can never see heal, and it's indicative of the problem he had in Seattle: He just wasn't that great at evaluating the right talent and putting a team together. His record backs that up, and his actions have backed that up here.
Setting all that aside, I'll tell you what I'm ready to read:
I remember MAC telling all of us that Haslam agrees with him when he says Holmgren gets his 5-year plan. If Haslam fired Holmgren that would make him part of the problem just like Lerner.
Well, Mac? It appears Haslam doesn't really agree with you afterall. So, how do you feel now? Inquiring minds wanna know
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Sweet.
Been tired of Holmgren playing the control freak and stepping in when he has something he really wants to do. That's a recipe for disaster as an executive.
His tenure as the Seahawks shot-caller wasn't very good, and in year three as the Browns President his tenure hasn't been very good.
If we're going to have a new owner, he needs to have his own people in place. If Holmgren keeping Mangini taught fans anything, it was the truth in that statement.
Good, good I say. We get a guy in here that has a PROVEN track record of success as an executive.
Mike Holmgren: HOF caliber coach, imminently underwhelming as an executive.
Thanks for trying, Mike. Wish you could have gotten the job done.
Going to hold you to this one Toad. The new owner will get everything right next year perfectly with HIS people in place. I'm not lying Im holding you down on this. He will get it right the very first time because he has a PROVEN TRACK RECORD.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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I believe he had some key injuries in the later stages, which played a key role in his record in Seattle too.
So you think that you can do better? HaHa! Dream on dude.
You’re one funny Toad.
He forced his will on a 3rd round pick only after the prospect that Heckert wanted there was picked.
I can live with that and I can live with us getting a backup QB out of the deal, which is exactly what I thought we got at the time we drafted him. I can’t help the fact that you expected more.
I don’t recall Big Mike ever stating that he was our franchise QB.
I can’t believe you are calling for firing someone, before the games have even been played.
He said from the time he was hired that it was a new thing for him being the President and unless he gets to finish what he started then nothing has been proven one way or the other.
It’s just your agenda and it’s not constructive in any way.
A fact is only a fact after the fact. Anyone here can make an educated guess and that’s all it isyour doing here, nothing more.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
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Sweet.
Been tired of Holmgren playing the control freak and stepping in when he has something he really wants to do. That's a recipe for disaster as an executive.
His tenure as the Seahawks shot-caller wasn't very good, and in year three as the Browns President his tenure hasn't been very good.
If we're going to have a new owner, he needs to have his own people in place. If Holmgren keeping Mangini taught fans anything, it was the truth in that statement.
Good, good I say. We get a guy in here that has a PROVEN track record of success as an executive.
Mike Holmgren: HOF caliber coach, imminently underwhelming as an executive.
Thanks for trying, Mike. Wish you could have gotten the job done.
Going to hold you to this one Toad. The new owner will get everything right next year perfectly with HIS people in place. I'm not lying Im holding you down on this. He will get it right the very first time because he has a PROVEN TRACK RECORD.
Nick, what exactly are you going to hold me to?
All I said is that we are getting a guy who has a proven track record of success, and I said that's a good thing.
That isn't the same as saying I'm guaranteeing success.
The not-so subtle inference is that Holmgren doesn't have a proven track record as an executive, and we're replacing him with a guy who does.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
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Sweet.
Been tired of Holmgren playing the control freak and stepping in when he has something he really wants to do. That's a recipe for disaster as an executive.
His tenure as the Seahawks shot-caller wasn't very good, and in year three as the Browns President his tenure hasn't been very good.
If we're going to have a new owner, he needs to have his own people in place. If Holmgren keeping Mangini taught fans anything, it was the truth in that statement.
Good, good I say. We get a guy in here that has a PROVEN track record of success as an executive.
Mike Holmgren: HOF caliber coach, imminently underwhelming as an executive.
Thanks for trying, Mike. Wish you could have gotten the job done.
Going to hold you to this one Toad. The new owner will get everything right next year perfectly with HIS people in place. I'm not lying Im holding you down on this. He will get it right the very first time because he has a PROVEN TRACK RECORD.
Nick, what exactly are you going to hold me to?
All I said is that we are getting a guy who has a proven track record of success, and I said that's a good thing.
That isn't the same as saying I'm guaranteeing success.
The not-so subtle inference is that Holmgren doesn't have a proven track record as an executive, and we're replacing him with a guy who does.
So in otherwords your saying you have no idea if we will do better? You either think he will or wont no fence sitting on this one. He will hire the right people and we will be better out the gate or not.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
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So you think that you can do better? HaHa! Dream on dude.
You’re one funny Toad.
I'm not Anarchy who claims he could.
Besides, regardless of my opinion I don't have to do better to know that Holmgren hasn't done well.
Afterall, I can't play QB as well as Charlie Frye but that doesn't mean I have to in order to know he sucked.
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He forced his will on a 3rd round pick only after the prospect that Heckert wanted there was picked.
You can justify it however you wish but it's still factual and what's worse...it was still wrong.
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I don’t recall Big Mike ever stating that he was our franchise QB.
He didn't have to. His actions said all that needed to be said. He signed a worn-out has-been in Delhomme, then followed that with a never-was in Wallace. He set McCoy up for success by making him the unquestioned QB of the future. McCoy got his shot for two seasons and he laid an egg. Only then did we go after another QB. Not one moment sooner.
You can play semantics with the term "franchise QB" if you wish, but if you'd rather use the term "unquestioned starter" it all means the same thing: He took McCoy with the idea he could turn him into something good. He was wrong. Black-eye indeed.
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He said from the time he was hired that it was a new thing for him being the President and unless he gets to finish what he started then nothing has been proven one way or the other.
Well how convenient for Holmgren.
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It’s just your agenda and it’s not constructive in any way.
My agenda...hmmm....: Agenda-definition: things to be done or a list of those things, as a list of the matters to be discussed at a meeting.
It's not constructive for your side of the argument. It's quite constructive for mine.
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A fact is only a fact after the fact.
You have chinese delivered tonight? 
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Anyone here can make an educated guess and that’s all it isyour doing here, nothing more.
While true, I'll put my track record of educated guesses up against anyone elses any day of the week. That's why I love these debates...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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