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Watching that angle makes me think Tate had more than I previously thought, which wasn't much. But I still think Jennings had possession first by a split second.
And by a split second, I mean hands on the ball in midair.....by the time they're on the ground, it's a free-for-all. Though, after they're on the ground for a few seconds, Jennings wrestles the ball away.
With all that being said, I still think it's an interception. I can't wait to head the NFL's explanation of the call.
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Debate over. 
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LINK Here's the NFL's long-awaited statement to the Monday Night Football mess:
In Monday's game between the Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks, Seattle faced a 4th-and-10 from the Green Bay 24 with eight seconds remaining in the game. Seattle quarterback Russell Wilson threw a pass into the end zone.
Several players, including Seattle wide receiver Golden Tate and Green Bay safety M.D. Jennings, jumped into the air in an attempt to catch the ball.
While the ball is in the air, Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty for offensive pass interference, which would have ended the game. It was not called and is not reviewable in instant replay.
When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball. Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player.
The result of the play was a touchdown. Replay Official Howard Slavin stopped the game for an instant replay review. The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball.
In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable.
That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone. Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood.
The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review.
The result of the game is final.
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The NFL Competition Committee has reviewed the play and they say that the officials got the call right.
No, no.
They say they support NOT OVER-TURNING IT.
Because it's not review-able!
That is absolutely NOT what they said.
The play is reviewable if it is a scoring play. They ruled that there was no evidence to overturn the call made.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Debate over.
Well, not really, as you can plainly see, the Seahawk player caught the Packer player that caught the ball.. shouldn't that count for something 
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I think it's pretty clear that Jennings has the ball...I really don't know how anyone sees it differently.
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Even if it is reviewable, they absolutely DID NOT say they got the call right.
They said they support not over turning it.
BIG difference.
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Debate over.
No its not, because that is after the play would be considered dead. Much as when you cross the plane, anything that happens after does not matter.
Once Jennings lands on Tate that was the end of the play. The only question is if Tate has poss, at all.
If he does the offense is awarded the ball.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Give it up, dude. He went to the ground, WITH THE BALL.
Green Bay ball. Period.
I don't understand how anyone can see otherwise.
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that pic is a second after they ruled possession. FAIL!
#gmstrong
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Give it up, dude. He went to the ground, WITH THE BALL.
Green Bay ball. Period.
I don't understand how anyone can see otherwise.
2 reasons and Ive explained it and the post above explains it as well.
1) watch the video link I put up. When they hit the ground that is the end of the play.
2) as the NFL said "when they hit the ground they both had poss"
Thats what people are not looking at. Did Tate have any type of poss of the ball when they hit the ground. The player is down by contact at that exact moment.
From my understanding of the rules while in the endzone.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Just clicking but, it's my opinion that the Packers got jobbed on that one.
Along with all of the poor saps who bet on GB to cover the 4 point spread.
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Just clicking but, it's my opinion that the Packers got jobbed on that one.
Along with all of the poor saps who bet on GB to cover the 4 point spread.
Me.
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Just clicking but, it's my opinion that the Packers got jobbed on that one.
Along with all of the poor saps who bet on GB to cover the 4 point spread.
Me.
i think we already knew that though 
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J/C, Indisputable proof  web page
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That pic is posted, its long after Tate had made contact with the ground with what looks like duel possession. This will go down along with the TD pass that was ruled incomplete as one of those plays.. On a side note I love how all the politicans are getting into the act. Maybe we should have congress look into this we all know how important the NFL is to running the country. 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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That pic is posted, its long after Tate had made contact with the ground with what looks like duel possession. This will go down along with the TD pass that was ruled incomplete as one of those plays..
On a side note I love how all the politicans are getting into the act. Maybe we should have congress look into this we all know how important the NFL is to running the country.
Sorry but I don't see dual possession here. Jennings has both hands and arms on and around the ball cradled in his chest and Tate has one hand on the end of the ball going around Jennings body.
Possession is only complete after the players come to the ground and what transpired prior to that is irrelevant.
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JC..
So many arguing that the regular refs make bad calls too.
But how many truly beleive the regular ref's would not have seen and called that push on the defender by Tate? That gets called, the the TD/INT is irrelevant.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Did you watch the video I posted because as you said what is important is did Tate have any type of possession of the ball when Jennings landed on Tate.
To me I see Tate get his second hand on the ball as they fall to the ground with Jennings on top of Tate. That is the end of the play and as you say anything before and Ill add after that happened is also irrelevant.
Its when Tate hit the ground that counts. Not Jennings because he didnt hit the ground he bounced on top of Tate. Tate therefore is down by contact with possession of the ball. He didnt lose it in the act of contacting the ground. He lost it because Jennings fought with him while rolling over which of course is after the play is dead.
Jennings was never down. Tate was.
Your still looking at the play from way after it is over. I could also see the reg refs making the exact same call.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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JC..
So many arguing that the regular refs make bad calls too.
But how many truly beleive the regular ref's would not have seen and called that push on the defender by Tate? That gets called, the the TD/INT is irrelevant.
IDK if they make that call or not, sometimes they let some things go when doing a hail mary. I've seen players get away with it for years However you are correct if the reg or replacement refs had called that this wouldnt be an issue. To me it looked like a push off.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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JC..
So many arguing that the regular refs make bad calls too.
But how many truly beleive the regular ref's would not have seen and called that push on the defender by Tate? That gets called, the the TD/INT is irrelevant.
After soaking on this one for a while, I could go along with the argument for calling it duel possession the first time you see it at true game speed. And furthermore, I could almost buy the duel possession argument when Tate hits the ground and Jennings is on top of him, just that instant only. So, the waters are muddy looking at it that way.....
With all that being said, and to your question, the regular refs call the OPI 95% of the time and they probably call the play itself an interception 55% of the time (maybe more).
I can live with the call as is because the instant replay official, which is not a scab, had the opportunity to overturn the call. Some of us were wrong last night, saying it’s a judgment call and not reviewable….but simultaneous possession is reviewable in the end zone. So, they could have flipped it back but didn't (for whatever reason).
You know, all this bashing of the NFL, Roger Goodell and the refs seems bad….but I watch the NFL for entertainment….and boy have I been entertained the past 15+ hours. 
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Did you watch the video I posted because as you said what is important is did Tate have any type of possession of the ball when Jennings landed on Tate.
To me I see Tate get his second hand on the ball as they fall to the ground with Jennings on top of Tate. That is the end of the play and as you say anything before and Ill add after that happened is also irrelevant.
Its when Tate hit the ground that counts. Not Jennings because he didnt hit the ground he bounced on top of Tate. Tate therefore is down by contact with possession of the ball. He didnt lose it in the act of contacting the ground. He lost it because Jennings fought with him while rolling over which of course is after the play is dead.
Jennings was never down. Tate was.
Your still looking at the play from way after it is over. I could also see the reg refs making the exact same call.
Oh I watched the video, but I still can't say that Tate ever had possession of the ball at any time.
In my mind there where two bad calls on that play. One that wasn't called and the one that was called.
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JC..
So many arguing that the regular refs make bad calls too.
But how many truly beleive the regular ref's would not have seen and called that push on the defender by Tate? That gets called, the the TD/INT is irrelevant.
After soaking on this one for a while, I could go along with the argument for calling it duel possession the first time you see it at true game speed. And furthermore, I could almost buy the duel possession argument when Tate hits the ground and Jennings is on top of him, just that instant only. So, the waters are muddy looking at it that way.....
With all that being said, and to your question, the regular refs call the OPI 95% of the time and they probably call the play itself an interception 55% of the time (maybe more).
I can live with the call as is because the instant replay official, which is not a scab, had the opportunity to overturn the call. Some of us were wrong last night, saying it’s a judgment call and not reviewable….but simultaneous possession is reviewable in the end zone. So, they could have flipped it back but didn't (for whatever reason).
You know, all this bashing of the NFL, Roger Goodell and the refs seems bad….but I watch the NFL for entertainment….and boy have I been entertained the past 15+ hours. 
True , but the replay official is only there to review the call on the field by means of indisputable evidence.
His job becomes one of disproving the call made on the field and not one of making the call himself.
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Debate over when the winning teams star offensive player says it was wrong: As Lynch watched Packers safety M.D. Jennings snatch the pass out of the sky and pull it to his chest while Tate, who had blatantly pushed off against Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields, belatedly latched on one arm at a time, the running back's eyes grew big and his jaw dropped low. The room was dead silent as the realization gripped Lynch and his companions: Like most of the viewing public, they now understood that the Seahawks had received an extraordinary gift from the replacement officials. "We didn't win that game," someone at the table said, and nobody made a peep to challenge him. By the time Lynch left the restaurant early Tuesday morning and, while waiting for his ride to arrive, reassured a group of Packers fans on Second Avenue almost apologetically that their team would bounce back from this bitter defeat, it was clear the league's already problematic officiating lockout had reached critical mass. from here
![[Linked Image from img.photobucket.com]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/Concor1033/NEWDTsig.jpg)
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True , but the replay official is only there to review the call on the field by means of indisputable evidence.
His job becomes one of disproving the call made on the field and not one of making the call himself.
Exactly, he wasn't there to just decide from scratch....he had to find irrefutable evidence that Jennings had clear possession before Tate did. According to his final decision, he couldn't find that.
Is there really 100% visual evidence that Jennings had possession before Tate? To me, the instant they both hit the ground and had their hands wrapped around the ball, it’s tough to say it wasn't simultaneous possession. Now, just before and just after it gets harder to argue….but like others have said, Jennings may have had his hands on it first, but he never has control and possession until he hits the ground, which is when Tate has both hands on it too. And then after, when Jennings rips it away from Tate, the possession decision could have already been argued to be over….so it didn’t matter who ended up with it.
And here’s something to really think about, we’ve all seen it 425 times……but the first time you see it at game speed, it’s tough. I’d still have called it an interception, but whateva. Maybe this ends up being “one of those calls” that can’t be overturned because a lack of visual evidence (like the Holmes TD catch in the Super Bowl, had they called it incomplete, they wouldn’t had enough to prove it was a TD).
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Dramatic as it may sound, it's quite possible that history will look back on Tate's illusory jump-ball touchdown as the moment the NFL
jumped the shark.
Not yet please 
Quote:
[More: Seattle-Green Bay TD call could have altered $250 million in bets]
Who would have guessed that
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Quote:
irrefutable
Correct  
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Quote:
[More: Seattle-Green Bay TD call could have altered $250 million in bets]
Not mine. I bet the Under.
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Under was a great bet.
Seattle's D is playing really, really well.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
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[More: Seattle-Green Bay TD call could have altered $250 million in bets]
Not mine. I bet the Under.
Cost me a parlay. I had Green Bay -3.5 and Under 48.
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All Pro
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Quote:
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JC..
So many arguing that the regular refs make bad calls too.
But how many truly beleive the regular ref's would not have seen and called that push on the defender by Tate? That gets called, the the TD/INT is irrelevant.
IDK if they make that call or not, sometimes they let some things go when doing a hail mary. I've seen players get away with it for years However you are correct if the reg or replacement refs had called that this wouldnt be an issue. To me it looked like a push off.
I'm not a big rules guy, and may be wrong here, but...
Just having two hands on the ball doesnt mean you have possession, and just because you have 'possession' of the ball when you touch the ground doesn't mean play is automatically done and it's a TD. Don't you have to maintain 'control'? Just like that Calvin Johnson TD from a Few years ago? Play wasn't over just cause feet hit the ground, and it was ruled no TD because he didn't maintain control.
Last night, Tate never appeared to have control of the ball, and even after he hit the ground (which you said ends the play) he certainly didn't maintain control. Megatron flipped that ball a second after play 'should' have been over. It's born automatic TD as soon as they touch the ground in the end zone, and it's not a TD if you don't maintain control.
Am I way off?
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Just having two hands on the ball doesnt mean you have possession, and just because you have 'possession' of the ball when you touch the ground doesn't mean play is automatically done and it's a TD. Don't you have to maintain 'control'? Just like that Calvin Johnson TD from a Few years ago? Play wasn't over just cause feet hit the ground, and it was ruled no TD because he didn't maintain control.
Last night, Tate never appeared to have control of the ball, and even after he hit the ground (which you said ends the play) he certainly didn't maintain control. Megatron flipped that ball a second after play 'should' have been over. It's born automatic TD as soon as they touch the ground in the end zone, and it's not a TD if you don't maintain control.
Am I way off?
No, your dead on the money here. Which is exactly why those upholding this call are dead wrong. They wish to revert the rules back to what they used to be to fit their own purpose.
___________________________________________
Legislator To Seek Ban On Replacement Refs In NJ
TRENTON, N.J. -
The president of the New Jersey Senate says he's drafting a bill to ban replacement referees from NFL games and other professional sports in New Jersey, where the New York Giants and New York Jets both play.
Democrat Steve Sweeney, an official in an ironworkers union, says the NFL's replacement referees have "made a mockery of the sport" and increased the potential for injuries.
Sweeney, a Green Bay Packers fan, also says substitute refs lower the quality of play and devalue fans' tickets.
The bill will not be introduced before next week.
A spokesman for Republican Gov. Chris Christie says he "can't say" whether Christie would sign the measure should it clear the Legislature.
The Giants and Jets both play at MetLife Stadium in East Rutherford.
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/story/19635399/legislator-to-seek-ban-on-replacement-refs-in-nj
If this were a construction site and OSHA had shown up, the job site would be shut down. I don't think the NFL should be some acception to the rule........
________________________________________
Paul Ryans comments.....
"You guys watch that Packers game last night?" Ryan asked an audience inside the factory warehouse at Byer Steel. "I mean, give me a break! It is time to get the real refs. And you know what it reminds me of? President Obama and the economy. If you can't get it right, it is time to get out."
Ryan, clearly aggrieved over last night's football game -- which ended with a Packers interception that was called, instead, a Seattle Seahawks touchdown -- couldn't let it go. Later in the speech, while assessing the state of the campaign, he lamented: "Unlike the Seattle Seahawks last night, we want to deserve this victory."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/25/paul-ryan-nfl-ref-lockout_n_1913035.html
__________________________________________
FINALY! A subject both parties agree on!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Oh Boy, this is getting Uuuuglyyyy
(in my best Andy Griffith voice).
Last edited by FL_Dawg; 09/25/12 06:04 PM.
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Ryan's not a Packers fan... 
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Ryan's not a Packers fan...
We know that NJ isn't for certain.
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CJ was never touched and lost the ball in the act of catching the ball.
Tate had the ball while making contact with the ground and didnt lose possession of the ball which then makes him down by contact.
Its a big difference. Once Tate had duel possession of ball and jennings fell on him once he hit the ground which is the rule he didnt lose possession, Jennings then rolled around and finally took the ball. That is the rule.
Duel possession added with not losing poss when contacting the ground and then being down by contact. The media can play this up all they want it was the correct call. Ive watched the play probably 1K times I dont see it any other way.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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No on one this one you are wrong. If you want to argue the PI not being called your right. The refs got the call on the field according to the rules correct IMHO. I dont care what the talking heads say they know as much about the rule book as coaches who try to take TO's they dont have and challenge plays they cannot.
The talking head even less.
Ive looked over the rules and they are very clear on the fact the player is down when any part of his body except his hands contact the ground. Check, Tates whole body was on the ground.
If 2 players come down with the ball its a sim possession ball goes to the passers
The player making the catch has to maintain control while making contact with the ground which Tate did because jennings landed on him ensureing it.
Once you have possession of the ball in the endzone (which was established once Jennings fell on him) everything that happens after that is moot.
Explain to me which of those rules was not correct then explain to me how the replacement refs blew it? Im not buying into the media hype, Im going by what my own 2 eyes tell me.
Then tell me why the heck our leaders are worried about a stupid football game instead of our budget and fixing this country? Time to vote the whole lot of them out for sure!
This is beyond stupid to get upset over.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Nick I can't speak for Pit, but you will never convince me that ... that was a catch and Tate ever had possession of that pass. Heck not even the Seahawks are willing to dispute that it was a catch, because they know that they where given a gift. 10 million fans agree. 
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Quote:
Nick I can't speak for Pit, but you will never convince me that ... that was a catch and Tate ever had possession of that pass.
Heck not even the Seahawks are willing to dispute that it was a catch, because they know that they where given a gift.
10 million fans agree.
Lol and if you have money on the other side? See I can look at it because I had no stake in it. I didnt even watch the game so only saw the replays. But once watching the replays (probably over 500x) I think they got it right according to the rules. Which I looked up that are releated to the subject.
Now we may agree to disagree that isnt a problem, it is a call that either side can debate. Im just using the rules of the NFL to debate why they got that part of the call correct. and the replacement refs were not as wrong as some would have us believe. 
Edit: and the hawks players probably saw the non-call on PI which as I said I cant debate that was a totally blown call.
Last edited by NickBrownsFan; 09/25/12 07:14 PM.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
Quote:
Nick I can't speak for Pit, but you will never convince me that ... that was a catch and Tate ever had possession of that pass.
Heck not even the Seahawks are willing to dispute that it was a catch, because they know that they where given a gift.
10 million fans agree.
Lol and if you have money on the other side? See I can look at it because I had no stake in it. I didnt even watch the game so only saw the replays. But once watching the replays (probably over 500x) I think they got it right according to the rules. Which I looked up that are releated to the subject.
Now we may agree to disagree that isnt a problem, it is a call that either side can debate. Im just using the rules of the NFL to debate why they got that part of the call correct. and the replacement refs were not as wrong as some would have us believe.
The difference here is that I'm not disputing the rules ... I'm disputing that Tate ever had possession.
I'm not convinced that he did and watching it 100 more times is not going to change that for me.
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