DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Republicans vote down Veterans' Jobs Bill

Fair enough, but it also strikes me as a bit of splitting hairs. Akin to correcting someone when they talk about democracy in America, and then having to point out that we're just a representative republic.

Yes, there is intervention from government, some necessary, some WAY too overreaching. In the end, manyof the baser principles of the free market system still survive.
Businesses thrive and fail based upon what the market wants.

Yes, there are tons of exceptions to that - but, again, some are necessary, and some are WAY too overreaching.

We have hundreds of years worth of natural gas, oil, and coal in the US. It may not be a permanent solution, but we should exploit every resource we have while working to develop other sources of energy.

I don't want to be dependent upon anyone for energy. We can create jobs by exploiting our domestic resources. We can work to reverse trade imbalances by developing more energy. We can generate more income for the federal government through fees for developing areas. We can add a 5 cent/barrel tax on domestic oil production, and use that for alternative energy funding, without adding to the deficit.

People say "well, even if we drill today we won't see result for a decade". That may be true ..... but the longer we wait, the longer that decade will take to arrive.

"Hundreds of years" is a bit of a stretch. The fuel is in deeper, harder to reach places and will cause more environmental challenges as we continue to have to "try harder" to reach it effectively to the point that the amount of effort needed to produce the fuel will be outweighed by the lower profit margins (especially while other countries invest in alternate fuels at a high rate ala Germany). We went from not being able to fly an airplane to flying machines out of our solar system in under 100 years. If we truly fund these alternate fuels, I have no doubt we can have similar success and put the USA on the frontline of alternative energy companies.

This is all a separate point, because I used the information from before to show that there is no "attack on fossil fuels" since the government is still funding it at an incredible amount (especially since the fossil fuel companies don't need government subsidies to remain incredibly profitable) and shows no signs of changing it anytime soon. Even proposed fossil fuel tax benefit cuts are only a small percentage of the literal billions these industries get on an annual basis.

It's also more than "just" tax policy. Regulations come into the picture as well, and this is where the President has flexed his muscle.

Yes, the global economic system is a capitalistic system, however, that does not mean that certain principles of the free market system don't exist.... such as supply and demand, and those two things and their effects are still quite alive in the American economic system and that is undeniable.

I think the term that everyone is looking for is "Mixed Economy".

How can you say its undeniable? It is absolutely deniable.

Our economy is not dictated by supply and demand.

Our government has consistently intervened to stop supply and demand from crashing various industries.

If our economy was dictated by supply and demand, do you realize how many of our industries would have collapsed, a long, long time ago?

Holy Myopic, Batman.

Where did I say that it was "100% completely, totally, irrevocably" dictated by it?
It is there. Period. Perhaps not completely on the uber-macro scale that you're obsessing over, but it IS there.

Are you denying that there is any supply-demand at all in action in the US Economy?
Are you saying that Supply & Demand plays absolutely no part at all in our economy?

I'm not denying it's present, I'm saying we will manipulate, subvert and regulate it when we need to.

Which is not a free market economy.

Some people believe in black and white only.

But we do have some free market aspects, especially the further you get away from the government.

Once you drill down to small business providing goods and services at the local level, free market principles set prices, and often determine wages. (for those businesses who pay above the minimum wage) Hell, when you drill down far enough, where people trade goods and/or services for other good and/or services, the free market is alive and well.

Other factors, like licensing, regulation, and industry assistance that run counter to free markets. That's why it's a combined market. However, to say that there are no free market principles at play in our economy is just wrong.

Lol Rocket finally got a taker.

I read the whole bill, and provided a link for anyone who wants to read it as well.

Like most bills, it's overly legal, and not easily understood. Regardless, the cogent parts are that this is predominantly temporary jobs, and jobs that cannot be sustained, because local governments will not be able to afford to continue employing these people once the grants expire.

With so many local governments on the verge of, or actually going into bankruptcy, it makes little sense to create jobs that cannot be sustained long term. If this bill was geared more towards helping veterans get the skills needed for in demand jobs, and then helping them fill those jobs, that would be a better solution. (at least IMHO)

I love the insults towards those of us who believe in God and the Bible. That's always a mature course to take in a debate. As far as DC "blindly" supporting any Party ..... you must not have read much of what he has written on these boards over the years. In fact, there are more Democrats who "blindly" follow the Democrats than there are Republicans who blindly follow the Republican Party. I think that every Republican has railed against the excessive spending that took place under Bush and the Republicans when they had control of the Congress. Those of us on the right have also disagreed on the Wars, and the tactics used in the Wars.

That doesn't always happen on the left about Democrats. In fact ... Conservatives get lectured on how we should "open our minds", and "get our news from more than just Fox News" ..... when I would venture a guess that most of us on the right visit "Democrat leaning" news and opinion sites than visa versa.

Now go on back to your rant.

My intent was not to batter God believing Christians. I am one myself. Half Catholic, half Methodist if there is such a thing, dnt ask about half/half. The exploitation of the Christian/religious by the Republicans in the last election is what I am referring to. I believe strongly in the separation of church n state. It's the mantra of u must not be a Christian, u must not be true American, or you must not support our troops labels that the republicans have used that completely turn me off from the current Republican party from the last election on. I am in no means saying that Obama is our savior. Has he made some mistakes? yes. Is the country better off then when he took over? yes. Do I believe he actually cares about getting us back on track? Yes. Does Romney? I say no. I think its more of a money/vanity thing for him n I actually believe he is more of a putz than Bush is. He turnt me off early on when in a republican debate he tried to bet another nominee $10k on stage, on tv. And has not said or done one thing since to make me believe otherwise. The Olympics thing, 47% thing, his economic plan w no specifics except raising military budget. It was raised by 14% when Bush took over. Romney saw how Bush made his friends rich and I'm sure the same friends and Romney will ridiculously abuse govt contracts the same way kbr and haliburton did.

But the differance between me and some on this board.... I don't hate Romney. I just think he's not qualified. The way some of u speak of Obama.... The hate just seeps thru whenever they comment, but not all on here. And I don't think YT or dc does this. But that man has done nothing to warrant that level of hate. He hasn't started two wars, didn't violate our rights to privacy, rape our economy while his friends got rich, violated human rights, or turn our leadership n respect we had in the world, into a joke.... Etc. Etc. Etc.
And you want to vote these same clowns back in???

See, I disagree bthat the country is somehow a great deal better than when he took over, and/or that his policies had anything to do with improving things.

The administration likes to tout the fact that we aren't losing jobs like we were in 2009, and that's true ..... however, one thing that people have to keep in mind is that businesses that managed to survive have to have employees. They hit a bottom number of employees, and from that point they either stay open with that number, or they close up shop. Once we lost so many jobs, we reached that number. The businesses that were left were in fairly good condition, had reserves, and had a manageable number of employees. They really can't cut much more without affecting their ability to do business.

I look at what Obama has done, and tried to do, and I don't believe that it was necessarily in the best interests of the country. The healthcare law wasn't one that helped control medical costs. It was partially written by the insurance companies. No competition ..... no standardization ....... just more of the same, only with more people involved, both on the insured side, and in new government agencies. Bleh.

The GM bailout was a payoff to the union. Any company in the US that went bankrupt, and then was given $50 billion sure better be strong as can be.

The stimulus bill accomplished ....... nothing. We repaved a few roads ...... did a few projects ...... and what else? There were some tax cuts involved, which is always a good thing ..... but not when we are increasing spending at the same time.

What else did he accomplish?

He complains about the Republicans, but he had a complete monopoly for the better part of the 1st 2 years of his administration. Regardless, Presidents sometimes have to work across the aisle. In fact, this often happens. Reagan had to do this. So did Clinton. Bush had a Democrat Congress for his last 2 years. These Presidents still managed to get things done. This President has never had to deal with people of the other party. He never did anything of any importance in the Senate, nor as a State Senator. He was poorly prepared to be an executive, because he had no experience in handling a variety of viewpoints in anything he has ever done.

I'm not a fan of Romney, but he is 200 times more qualified to be President than Obama ever was. Romney has run businesses. He has run a state, He has worked across the aisle. He has a record of accomplishment. Obama's major accomplishment was voting "Present" more than almost any other Senator.

I look at the economy, and it is like a ship on the ocean, but without a rudder. There are people paddling ...... but it's just kind of floating wherever it will. There is no direction. We have no tax policy. We have regulations run amok. It would be difficult for a President to be more anti-business if he tried. Businesses have no ability to plan, because they have no idea what their taxes and employee costs will be. They already can plan on adding at least $2500 per full time employee if they don't currently offer healthcare to their full time employees. Already we see employers cutting back on full time employees. My Mom works at Wal Mart, and they are no longer hiring full time, and their former full time employees are no longer getting full time hours. I believe that many more minimum wage type employers will go to this philosophy as well. The fewer full time employees you have, the fewer employees you have to provide healthcare to.

None of these things help add employment to the economy. We are adding some part time service type jobs .... restaurants, minimum wage store type jobs, and such .... but is that helpful to the economy? Not when it is displacing full time employees to avoid additional employer costs.

What policies has Obama put in place, or even proposed, that help employers hire? I don't know of any. The Veteran's Act that they just ran through the House is junk. It's going to be another program that will burden local governments down the road, and many won't even take part in such a program because they can't afford the costs down the road. What policies has he put in place to help add employment? What has he done to help the private sector add employees? I can't think of many, if any.

Whether you like Romney or not, at least he does have the bones of a plan. We should be exploiting our energy right now. We could add jobs, lower our dependence on foreign governments, and maybe even lower energy costs. He wants to cut taxes, and simplify the tax code. I agree with simplification. He wants to address Medicare. Ask anyone 40 or below if they believe that Medicare and/or Social Security will be there when they retire. I bet that 75% say that they doubt that it will be here. It needs to be addressed. If someone takes it on, even if they don't have a perfect plan, if they can take ideas from everyone, maybe they can get to an improved system. Tax policy should be set for a decade. This crap of going year by year kills jobs. No one knows what to expect. Romney does want to do this as well.

I have no clue what the Obama plan is. he wants to raise taxes on the rich. That does very little for balancing the budget. It's 8 days worth of funding. Of course, then he spends that anyway. He also spends the "savings" from ending the wars. In fact, he actually spends it twice in a way. I see no leadership from Obama at all. He hasn't worked across the aisle on anything. He's even had to bribe members of his own party to pass healthcare. Bleh. That's not leadership. I see nothing even resembling leadership from this guy. I see a guy who seems to want to be President more for the prestige than anything else.

I'm not impressed.

His foreign policy impresses me even less than his domestic policy, and that's hard to do. I'm not going to get into all of it .... but many in the Middle east are laughing at us. We're running around screaming about some video from July when our Embassies are attacked on 9-11. Really?

This is hopeless. I don't like Romney, but I will vote for him this time around. I didn't like McCain or Obama last time, so I voted for no one. I honestly don't see as I can do that again this time.

Quote:

---

As I said in the national debt thread mac, your arguements are what I hate about politics and what is destroying our country.

Anytime anyone wants to cut federal spending for a certain program, you label them as "anti-veteran" or against women's rights. What you need to understand is that money doesn't grow on trees...our government likes to think so (they love printing more money) but this strategy has proven itself to be a very bad one throughout history.

---

cribbs...what you don't seem to understand, this whole GOP tactic of using the national debt as a reason to challenge the every bit of legislation that comes before Congress is just a charade the GOP is playing upon the public....and you are choking it down in big gulps.

If we talk about saving billions given to rich corporations that are doing very, very well ...does the GOP support ending those unneeded handouts to help cut our Government expenses?

It is estimated that our GOP supports handing out 110 billion per year to American Corporations...the jobs bill to help those who put their lives on the line IN WAR, costs an estimated 1 billion over 5 yrs.

110 billion X 5 yrs = $550 billion

$550 billion over 5 yrs, for corporations doing well
VS
$1 billion over 5 yrs to help veterans who do need help getting a job

crib...so you see, it comes down to "a matter of priorities" for these GOP senators who voted against helping our veterans get a job.

In this case, wealthy corporations that don't need any government help
VS
our War veterans who do need government help.

...just a matter of priorities for the GOP and their supporters !

Really, your going to blame this whole mess on the Republicans in congress? Obviously you don't take the national debt crisis seroiusly, but I'm sure you're more worried about global warming destroying our country.

So, let me get what you're saying: somehow, by voting down every federal spending increase proposed to congress (you know, because according to you the GOP won't let any laws get passed) the federal governement has managed to balloon the national debt to $16 trillion dollars while maintaining the highest levels of unemployment we've seen in decades.

Let me guess...this is Bush's fault because the GOP won't let you repeal his failed policies? Nope, the Democrats had their chance with control of congress and the presidency, plus the national debt has grown at a higher rate than it has under the Bush presidency. So none of that is really true.

I had no problems criticizing Bush: love or hate his ideological platform, his economic policies started us on this horrible path. Obama has done nothing but make it much worse, and he's had plenty of time and opportunity to show his true colors when it comes to the national debt. And he has failed.

Quote:

---

Obama has done nothing but make it much worse, and he's had plenty of time and opportunity to show his true colors when it comes to the national debt. And he has failed.

---

Miserably!