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Theres been a lot of talk about the man of late, and I'm trying to get a good read on what the man is as a head coach.
Ive heard a lot of differing opinions...I've heard he is:
- in over his head, clueless, not ready, unable to adjust to the head coaching job, unable to execute a good game plan
- a terrible play caller
- arrogant, condescending, and unwilling to change/adjust/take suggestion
- doing a good job with a bunch of rookies and roster with little to no talent
- doing a good job but the players arent executing
- doing a job that is unevaluatable because the players dont execute
- a poor motivator that cant get his players prepared for a game
- unprepared
- a poor game planner/coach
- a poor gameday coach, and play caller
- a poor coach during the week to get his players prepared
- a mistake
Not much of that is positive, but I'd like to have a legitimate opinion of the guy because I've been unable to form one. This past week against Buffalo was the first time under Shurmur that I thought the team just laid down. It seemed like overall we had very little fight.
I see the team as lacking confidence in itself, and lacking the will to fight through that. As a coach myself its hard to find where that lies. Are they unconfident in their ability or in the game plan? Depending on where it goes...it could be very telling for the coach and/or the players. We're incredibly young so I find it hard to say that it would be a lack of belief in the gameplan...but seeing 9 straight losses and a 4-15 record...eh.
I have a hard time being able to see the difference between a lack of confidence in self or in game plan...i do know we play with no confidence. It seemed like our defense schemed as if it was unable to stop its opposition the last two weeks and I'm not happy about that, but is that more Jauron or Shurmur?
Our offense has been firing blanks and Weeden has said a lot that he felt like he's been putting the ball in the right place. Obviously there are times that he hasnt, but on missed catches and plays, is he putting it in the right place, but his guys arent there...or? where does that fall...is it bad scheme? bad execution? which...cuz one means its shurmur's fault.
Is Shurmur enforcing accountability behind the scenes? We've been penalized often for brain mistakes. False starts, holds, and other bad decisions. Our defense didnt commit much penalties last week cuz they didnt play physical enough to do so.
What is Shurmur...he's in his 2nd year as a coach, he's clearly not a finished product...but what will make it work.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I am concerned that TR speaking up last week was an indicator of how things are being run.
I'm glad he did it....I am concerned that only two game into the season he felt/had the need to do so.
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All Pro
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Well it was 3 games and thats what leaders do. I dont take it as a pos. or neg. on Shurmur. I take it that we drafted another good leader for our locker room. We need guys stepping up challenging each other to be better, not complacent ones trying to avoid injury just wanting another check.
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I have been somewhat a critic of Shurmer. Last year there were obvious signs such as some basic clock management and far too obvious playcalling that simply lacked any imagination. However, when the season was over and I looked back in retrospect, combined with something he said after the draft, it caused me to re-think my position to some extent. Firstly, any rookie will have growing pains and be slightly overwhelmed at first. Be that a player, a coach, or as we've seen lately, and especially, a replacement ref.  That being said, I felt that we needed to see him this year to see if he had grown and had learned from those early "rookie moves". As the old saying goes, "You have to crawl before you can walk." Secondly, the cast he had to work with in regards to talent wasn't the cream of the crop. He had no help when it comes to an OC and as a rookie HC, trying to coach your team and be the OC would be overwhelming to anyone IMO Thirdly, and something I found very telling, is that after the draft Shurmer stated, "This year we will be able to open up the playbook more". This indicated to me that as a HC, he did not have the confidence in some of our offensive players last year and their ability to use, at least in part, many of the plays that were in the playbook. This year he is strapped with a boat load of rookies. We have seen flashes of good and flashes of bad. But these are the exact things that I expected to see under those circumstances. Our depth is not yet in place in this new system and it really hasn't been fully established as of yet. So in summery, I feel the jury is still out on Shurmer. Young kids not only perform with flashes of good and bad, but their emotions swing from good to bad. The maturity level simply isn't there for them to be "stoked every time they enter the field of play". So I really don't read so much into last week. To me, what will tell the real tale on Shurmer, as well as some of these rookies, is..... What will we look like towards the end of the season? If he can take this young talent and mold it, refine it and make measurable progress with it, I would see that as a very positive sign on Shurmer. However, if the playcalling and lack of ability to make this young group win a few games and become consistantly competative towards the end of the season does not culminate, I will have to conclude that my impressions of him last year hold some merrit. To me? The jury is still out........
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Shurmur has been placed in a horrible position. He inherited a team with very little talent and no off season in his first year. Now on the first day of camp in year 2 he gets told the team is being sold. OO and by the way your starting Qb, RB, RT are rookies. You get to start 2 rookie linebackers. Your stud DT may be lost for the season. Your stud corner just got suspended 4 games. Then you have another starting LB facing 3 game suspension and the other bookend LB is done for the season.
OO and did i mention #1 receiver can't catch a cold, #2 cant stay healthy, #3 is completely lost.
Now we all know a real coach would have had this team in the playoffs by now lol.
Last week was the first time I felt this team was ill prepared to play and really didnt have a lot of fight in them. I would like to see Shurmur call a game like his career is on the line because it is on the line. This team needs a boost and the best way to do that is on those 4th and short to convince them they can go get and let them go get it. He needs to grow a pair when it comes to playcalling.
I think he is a good coach but he is done for unless he gets this thing turned around in a hurry.
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Quote:
Well it was 3 games and thats what leaders do. I dont take it as a pos. or neg. on Shurmur. I take it that we drafted another good leader for our locker room. We need guys stepping up challenging each other to be better, not complacent ones trying to avoid injury just wanting another check.
Well it was (after) 2 games...the week of the Buffalo game...which is awfully early in the year for a pep talk. I think that is a reflection on the coaching...especially given that we were (still) not ready to play at 1:00pm Sunday.
I'm good with TR doing it...and disappointed that it needed done so early in the season.
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I agree for the most part with Pit. He's a new head coach 3 games into his second season with half a roster of 1st and 2nd year players....yet if some of those dropped passes and an interception were caught, we'd be 2-1 or 3-0 right now and not having this conversation. We need to see how this team progresses this season before we can effectively evaluate him.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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My heart just started pounding in the thoughts if I ever had to deal with that as a coach. I coach basketball, thatd be like saying, here...heres ur starting 5...one has only 1 arm, one is 3'4, one hasnt played ball before, another is a baseball player, and this guy is a player...but only played with a good team...and ur bench is all mediocre...good luck.
He is really up against it.
I look for improvement in in-game situations and I definitely saw it week 2 and week 1...last week I saw just a big old setback on EVERY front. Special Teams looked like they were trying to give up a TD, offense was trying to not get first downs, and the defense was giving yards away like halloween candy. Was it just a perfect poopstorm or was it a troubling sign?
I guess my wonder in this conversation is...
HAS SHURMUR DONE ENOUGH IMPROVING SO FAR TO THINK THAT HE HAS A FUTURE? Has he shown he can improve? and do you have any evidence?
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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it is impossible for Shurmur to prove himself without many of these rookies emerging as special players. I mean, he was within a play in each of the first two games of having W's on the board instead of L's. As bad as this team was against the Bill's, if Little doesn't drop that pass the momentum majorly shifts and we have a legit shot.
That is the thing with such a young team. They are emotional and everything that happens becomes exaggerated. They just need some positives to build upon. The difference between Shurmur being a great coach or a former coach will be in his team's ability to steal a couple games.
Young team beats a turd team, it is sunny but everyone knows well you beat a turd. Now a young team pulls the upset and boy that confidence starts to grow, they get another and boy look out cause now they believe they can not only beat everyone they play but they are thinking how can we blow them out.
Shurmur whether fair or not will be judged by wins and loses.
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Quote:
I coach basketball, thatd be like saying, here...heres ur starting 5...one has only 1 arm, one is 3'4, one hasnt played ball before, another is a baseball player, and this guy is a player...but only played with a good team...and ur bench is all mediocre...good luck.
If the bench are all mediocre, then why are those guys starting? 
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well...we do have hardesty active and bjax inactive...
hagg inactive and usama active...
marecic still on the roster and smelley on PS...
oniel cousins active and ryan miller inactive...
hmmmm....
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Seriously....
And the Marecic one really angers me. Can someone tell me why he's on the team and Smelley isn't?
I'd be curious if we only changed that one roster spot to begin the season what the season would be like right now.
I'm not sure we'd be sitting at 0-3.
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Anyone hear TR's comments after the Buffalo game that they had basically looked past the Bills?
That's on Shurmur. You don't look past anyone, particularly a winnable game when you're on an 8 game losing streak.
He's in over his head, has been since day one, and he has yet to plan and effectively execute a game plan that gives us a clearly decided advantage by exploiting an opposing team's weakness. IMHO, I don't think he has that ability in his toolbox. And while he may grow and learn as he gains experience, that is my main concern, and what ultimately will cause him to fail as a HC.
Finally, I think the point is moot. I firmly believe at this point, he is effectively gone. I do not see a scenario where Haslam keeps him on. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it will either happen shortly after mid-October to make a statement, or he'll be released at the end of the season.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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If this team continues to grow and build upon their performance from last night, I don't see a scenario in which Shurmur leaves here.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Just clicking.
I thought the play-calling was sound last night and once we have the resources to execute the X's and O's better, it will be sufficient.
That said. The play-action in completely obvious passing situations was pointless. Under a minute left without timeouts. Baltimore's linebackers didn't even bother to acknowledge it and didn't miss a beat of their backpedals. That was all that stood out as stupid from the play-calling side.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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We're not the only team that does that either. I don't get it. What team is going to give half a damn about the run when they are leading by 7, with the offense having no time outs, and having the opposing offense have the field to go ... oh, and with less than a minute to go?
I'll tell you what worries me ....and that's the way we start out games slowly. Either we are making remarkable adjustments as the game goes along, or we're just not prepared for what teams are doing to us off the bat.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
If this team continues to grow and build upon their performance from last night, I don't see a scenario in which Shurmur leaves here.
Time will tell. I don't see a scenario where Shurmur generates 4 wins or more, and in that scenario, I don't see him staying, no matter how much the players improve.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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You guys are making WAY too much out of the play action thing. It's just a play call. They've practiced it dozens, if not hundreds, of times that way. It's as much of a rhythm thing as anything else in this situation and if one or more defenders is dumb enough to bite a little on the fake, so much the better. It's not a big deal. At all.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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Either we are making remarkable adjustments as the game goes along, or we're just not prepared for what teams are doing to us off the bat.
We are not prepared, that much has been evident all along. There is no apparent game planning. We aren't making remarkable adjustments as the game goes along either, we just happen to get lucky and Wheeden & Co manage to put together a successful drive now and again. Even a car with no engine can move forward if it's facing downhill.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Quote:
You guys are making WAY too much out of the play action thing. It's just a play call. They've practiced it dozens, if not hundreds, of times that way. It's as much of a rhythm thing as anything else in this situation and if one or more defenders is dumb enough to bite a little on the fake, so much the better. It's not a big deal. At all.
it also forces the QB to take his eyes off the WRs. with how Weeden would stare down the WRs, Shurmur & Childress could have had him do that just to force him to look away.
naw, that would mean they were actually coaching. and reading around here there are no coaches on the team, right?
#gmstrong
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Quote:
You guys are making WAY too much out of the play action thing. It's just a play call. They've practiced it dozens, if not hundreds, of times that way. It's as much of a rhythm thing as anything else in this situation and if one or more defenders is dumb enough to bite a little on the fake, so much the better. It's not a big deal. At all.
+1
They called a play because it was a play designed to work for certain situations with certain personnel. The fact that it happened to be play action is meaningless, IMO. Just another example of why I said the other week that criticism of play calling is WAY overblown on here.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
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You guys are making WAY too much out of the play action thing. It's just a play call. They've practiced it dozens, if not hundreds, of times that way. It's as much of a rhythm thing as anything else in this situation and if one or more defenders is dumb enough to bite a little on the fake, so much the better. It's not a big deal. At all.
+1
They called a play because it was a play designed to work for certain situations with certain personnel. The fact that it happened to be play action is meaningless, IMO. Just another example of why I said the other week that criticism of play calling is WAY overblown on here.
It always will be if you consider the source of the criticism.
Some posters whom need not be named have been on the fire Coach Shurmur bus since he arrived in town.
He wont ever get their benefit of the doubt. Not ever.
I've come to expect it and berating them is futile at best.
Did it effect the play in a positive way. Nope.
Did it effect the play in a negative way? Nope.
Seems like a pretty moot point imo.
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Legend
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You guys are making WAY too much out of the play action thing. It's just a play call. They've practiced it dozens, if not hundreds, of times that way. It's as much of a rhythm thing as anything else in this situation and if one or more defenders is dumb enough to bite a little on the fake, so much the better. It's not a big deal. At all.
+1
They called a play because it was a play designed to work for certain situations with certain personnel. The fact that it happened to be play action is meaningless, IMO. Just another example of why I said the other week that criticism of play calling is WAY overblown on here.
It always will be if you consider the source of the criticism.
Some posters who need not be named have been on the fire Coach Shurmur bus since he arrived in town.
He wont ever get their benefit of the doubt. Not ever.
I've come to expect it and berating them is futile at best.
Did it effect the play in a positive way. Nope.
Did it effect the play in a negative way? Nope.
Seems like a pretty moot point imo.
Well, I hope you weren't including me in the "fire Shurmur" camp because I haven't been. However, the play calling to me is maddening and horrible, and I don't want him calling plays.
But I'm willing to have my mind changed and between PPE and another poster, BrownsLifer I believe, they've got me at least willing to reconsider my stance.
So someone change my mind here. Why is there no negative effect on running a play action pass on third and long from under center when the situational football dictates that the D is highly unlikely to bite?
I am willing to have my mind changed, but to me here are the negatives:
1. QB doesn't get to see the field until after playaction is completed. Precious seconds...which leads me to ...
2. Defense is teed off for the pass...which leads me to ...
3. We need a large amount of yards.
4. We have a rookie who is more comfortable running the shotgun.
I just see it as completely, 100% unnecessary. And if anyone is able to convince me that there are zero negatives, then please tell me what the positives are. If there are no positives, what's the point?
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Quote:
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You guys are making WAY too much out of the play action thing. It's just a play call. They've practiced it dozens, if not hundreds, of times that way. It's as much of a rhythm thing as anything else in this situation and if one or more defenders is dumb enough to bite a little on the fake, so much the better. It's not a big deal. At all.
+1
They called a play because it was a play designed to work for certain situations with certain personnel. The fact that it happened to be play action is meaningless, IMO. Just another example of why I said the other week that criticism of play calling is WAY overblown on here.
It always will be if you consider the source of the criticism.
Some posters who need not be named have been on the fire Coach Shurmur bus since he arrived in town.
He wont ever get their benefit of the doubt. Not ever.
I've come to expect it and berating them is futile at best.
Did it effect the play in a positive way. Nope.
Did it effect the play in a negative way? Nope.
Seems like a pretty moot point imo.
Well, I hope you weren't including me in the "fire Shurmur" camp because I haven't been. However, the play calling to me is maddening and horrible, and I don't want him calling plays.
But I'm willing to have my mind changed and between PPE and another poster, BrownsLifer I believe, they've got me at least willing to reconsider my stance.
So someone change my mind here. Why is there no negative effect on running a play action pass on third and long from under center when the situational football dictates that the D is highly unlikely to bite?
I am willing to have my mind changed, but to me here are the negatives:
1. QB doesn't get to see the field until after playaction is completed. Precious seconds...which leads me to ...
2. Defense is teed off for the pass...which leads me to ...
3. We need a large amount of yards.
4. We have a rookie who is more comfortable running the shotgun.
I just see it as completely, 100% unnecessary. And if anyone is able to convince me that there are zero negatives, then please tell me what the positives are. If there are no positives, what's the point?
I don’t remember pointing a finger at you or anyone else, but you can’t deny that some fans have been on that bus from the get go.
I was trying to be tactful in my response, in not singling out anyone poster.
I guess I wasn't clear enough *sigh*
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Would have really loved it if you addressed the other part of my post. 
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Would have really loved it if you addressed the other part of my post.
I thought I answered those questions prior to your post. 
I don't think that the play action passing on the last drive was a great call, but on the other hand I also don't see that it had a negative effect on the outcome of the plays in question.
In short I think that a whole lot is being made out of a moot point.
I think that if you look at the entire body of work last night ... imo I can't really say that the play calling was suspect.
I think that one can micro manage each and every game and find faults in the plan, but if the execution is not up to par, then that presents another variable to the equation. One that no amount of second guessing can quantify.
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I have big shoulders ; I can carry the load .. I think Shurmur has sucked since day one and still feel that way ... We never have been able to run a screen pass , never .. So he runs one at one of the most critical points in the fourth quarter : Dumb , gets a personal foul called on himself : Dumb .. And the list goes on game after game after game .. Little is killing us so lets play him some more ? More speed at LB'er shows up big time , so we start Fujita and Mav... Brilliant .. And the list goes on .. Roster spot for the FB ???
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Legend
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Quote:
I don't think that the play action passing on the last drive was a great call, but on the other hand I also don't see that it had a negative effect on the outcome of the plays in question.
In short I think that a whole lot is being made out of a moot point.
I think that if you look at the entire body of work last night ... imo I can't really say that the play calling was suspect.
I have to disagree here. I do hope Shurmer learns from his mistakes, but as it pertains to play action ( not strictly based on the last drive, but overall ) and the overall playcalling, I do feel this game was mismanaged.
For play action to really be affective, you need to have a balanced attack. Now many can say that TRich was not effective running the ball last night but I disagree in two ways.
1. He did score a TD running the ball.
2. 14 carries is a far too small number to judge wheather a more balanced attack would have been more successful.
TRich rushed the ball 14 times. Weeden had 52 pass attempts and was sacked once for a total of 53 times he actually went back to pass the ball.
With those numbers scewed so badly, by the 4th quarter, play action does little to nothing. Your oponent has already seen your propensity for throwing the football. The "element of surprise" that play action is supposed to bring has been lost.
That's why I really think highly of Weeden's performance last night. The entire burden of the game for the most part was squarely placed upon his shoulders. Our HC basicly neutralized our running game by choice. And by the 4th quarter, anyone watching this game saw that, including our oponents.
We moved up to the #3 position in the draft and paid well in order to do that. Then we let him tote the rock 14 times while our #22 pick QB throws the ball 52 times?
I really don't see much of anything sound or balanced about that sort of game plan. And for play action to truely work, balance is a very signifigant part of that process.
I guess we can sit here and say, "It's all about execution" if we'd like, but an element of surprise helps contribute to the ability to execute.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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For play action to really be affective, you need to have a balanced attack. Now many can say that TRich was not effective running the ball last night but I disagree in two ways.
I don't disagree that Richardson did not have a bad night, IIRC he also had like 57 yards receiving on 4 receptions. You can have all of the balance in your attack you want, but unless you have a true threat like we have in Richardson, then play action is all for not.
The reasons why the play action pass was a good call 'most of the night' was, because of the fact that their defense was trying to take Trent out of the game. None the less I think that the threat was always present if he is in the game and the LBers especially need to stay aware of that.
Trying to argue that play calling was the root of our problems last night is silly talk. It came down to a few plays, that if executed properly (better), would have been the difference in winning or losing the game.
We had Cribbs fumble to over come ... Robertson's INT nullified that mistake.
We had the pick 6 to over come ... I think that Weeds bounced back from that pretty well. At least as well as could be expected minus a game tying pass.
On the 11 play 94 yard drive ... we had to over come penalties that set us back and off of schedule ... we proved what we are capable of if we execute the plan properly on that drive. (I don't see any indifference with play calling on that drive)
What we could not over come was 7 (at least) drop passes and at least one of which (possibly two) should have been good for a TD.
Like you I too would like to see Trent get more carries in a game, but that would entail us getting a lead in a game to take full advantage of his rushing abilities, especially late in the 4th quarter of games.
NTU As far as Weeden being under center and not in the shotgun ... I think that it has been well established that a QB gets a better look at the defense and what they are trying to do from under center, then in shotgun formation. That's not even debatable.
If you don't believe me then e-mail Vic or some other expert on the subject.
Last edited by FL_Dawg; 09/28/12 06:02 PM.
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I'll tell you what worries me ....and that's the way we start out games slowly. Either we are making remarkable adjustments as the game goes along, or we're just not prepared for what teams are doing to us off the bat.
I'm thinking... ok, maybe I'm hoping... that this is the reason, we have 5 starting rookies on offense, we aren't really sure how defenses are game planning against us so we don't know how to game plan against them... add to that, we aren't dominant enough in any phase to say, "Ok, this is what we are going to do, you try to stop it." .... then you have a bunch of rookies seeing these teams live for the first time ever... It all adds up to a couple drives of feeling out what the other team is going to do by the players and the coaches.
The optimist in me wants to focus on the positive adjustments and not the slow start.
yebat' Putin
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The reasons why the play action pass was a good call 'most of the night' was, because of the fact that their defense was trying to take Trent out of the game. None the less I think that the threat was always present if he is in the game and the LBers especially need to stay aware of that.
I don't disagree that TRich is always a threat, but Richardson ran 5 times in the first quarter, 5 times in the second quarter and a grand total of 4 times in the entire second half.
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Trying to argue that play calling was the root of our problems last night is silly talk. It came down to a few plays, that if executed properly (better), would have been the difference in winning or losing the game.
I don't believe I said anywhere it was the root of our problem.? But we weren't down by 21 points at half time so I see no legitimate excuse to only rush TRich 4 times in an entire half of fotball. I think trying to excuse that is pretty much silly talk as well.
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We had Cribbs fumble to over come ... Robertson's INT nullified that mistake.
We had the pick 6 to over come ... I think that Weeds bounced back from that pretty well. At least as well as could be expected minus a game tying pass.
When you require in your play calling that a rookie QB in his 4th start throw the ball 52 times, you're very lucky it was only one pick. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good?
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On the 11 play 94 yard drive ... we had to over come penalties that set us back and off of schedule ... we proved what we are capable of if we execute the plan properly on that drive. (I don't see any indifference with play calling on that drive)
So you are advocating that a sound game plan is having Weeden pass the ball 52 times while TRich rushes 14 times? I mean, am I actually reading this right?
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Like you I too would like to see Trent get more carries in a game, but that would entail us getting a lead in a game to take full advantage of his rushing abilities, especially late in the 4th quarter of games.
My premise actually has nothing to do with "late in the fourth quarter".
TRich rushed three times in the third quarter.
He rushed once in the 4th QTR. with 13:04 left on the clock and never touched the ball on a rushing down afterwords.
My assertion is there are many factors that contribute to a loss. Just as you have to take shots down field to loosen up D's in order to rush the ball, you also have to rush once in a while to keep them honest if you wish to pass the ball down field.
Let's look at the part of the third quarter that truely expounds my point. I understand that when you have to come back from a deficit late in the game that you are forced to pass. That's not even the issue here. Once again let's look at when we did have every option in the world to have a balanced attack.
Third Qtr.... Time left 9:49...... Score 16-7
9:49 Trent Richardson rush to the left for 3 yards to the Cle17. Tackled by Pernell McPhee and Ray Lewis.
2nd down at Cle17
9:08 Brandon Weeden pass to the left to Greg Little for 5 yards to the Cle22. Tackled by Paul Kruger.
3rd down at Cle22
8:37 Brandon Weeden pass to the right to Trent Richardson for 15 yards to the Cle37. Tackled by Jameel McClain.
1st down at Cle37
8:07 Brandon Weeden pass to the middle to Benjamin Watson for 13 yards to the 50. Tackled by Bernard Pollard. Penalty: Unnecessary Roughness on Baltimore (Bernard Pollard) 15 yards.
1st down at Bal35
7:05 Trent Richardson rush to the left for 2 yards to the Bal33. Tackled by Albert McClellan and Haloti Ngata.
2nd down at Bal33
7:05 Brandon Weeden incomplete pass to the middle intended for Jordan Norwood defensed by Lardarius Webb.
3rd down at Bal33
7:02 Brandon Weeden incomplete pass to the middle intended for Jordan Norwood.
4th down at Bal33
7:02 Phil Dawson 51 yard field goal attempt is GOOD. Holder: Reggie Hodges.
At this juncture in the game we were down by only six points and Weeden had passed twice as much as TRich had rushed the ball 26 passes and TRich had 13 rushes.
We had a rookie QB with three NFL starts to that juncture. Now you may say that's a sound game plan if you wish. But let's look at other rookie QB's
Tannehill 36 attempts.
They use RB by commitee since Bush is coming back from injury. So Bush rushed 10 times, Thomas 19 times and Miller 9 times.
36 passes and 38 rushes.
Russel Wilson 21 attempts
Marshawn Lynch 25 attempts
Leon Washington 1 attempt
21 passes 26 rushes
Since Griffin didn't play this week, I used last weeks box score against the Saints.....
Griffin passed 26 times
I'll even leave the rushes Griffin had out of it. Which was 9 times BTW
Morris rushed for 28 attempts and a total of 6 rushes by remaining players.
26 pass attempts and 34 rushing attempts and that excludes the 9 rushes by Griffin.
The ONLY team that compares to us in number of pass attempts by a rookie QB is Indy who has no premiere RB and has the most NFL ready rookie QB I've seen in years.
Luck had 46 pass attempts
Donald Brown rushed 18 times while Ballard and Moore rushed for a total of 7 more
46 pass attempts and 25 rushing attempts
By contrast we had 52 pass attempts and one sack which would mean 53 pass plays called.
52 pass plays and 17 total rushing plays.
Other than Luck, our playcalling is total lopsidedy. Even if you look to the point we were only behind by six points we had tried to pass versus the run at a 2-1 ratio.
I'm not trying to say that the playcalling was the "main reason" we lost the game. what I am saying is that you don't take a rookie QB who has been struggling to try to pass at a 2 to 1 ratio when the game is close.
The only other team that even attempts to get CLOSE to those numbers is Indy who has the premiere pick in Luck and no real threat at the RB position at all.
Sure these are just stats, but you can look at how rookie QB's have been brought along in this league. The burden isn't placed directly on their shoulders this way. You use a balanced attack. When you have a premiere RB, you let him tote the rock to help open up things for your QB.
In this case, we played a game we were in "dispite" the game plan, not because of it........
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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So you are advocating that a sound game plan is having Weeden pass the ball 52 times while TRich rushes 14 times? I mean, am I actually reading this right?
Pit your a master at putting words into someones mouth. Never did I imply that.
Also you leave out the fact that Trent also had four receptions ... that's 18 touches and IIRC we tried to hit him a couple other times in the flat and on a screen pass that was blown up.
I don't think that it's a great idea to have Tom Brady (or other) pass the ball 52 times, but sometimes it just ends up that way. Especially if you factor in being down and time is not on your side with no time outs to work with.
In short I don't think that it was the game plan to have Weeds pass 52 times. Sometimes it just works out that way.
This is a passing League today no matter how much you want to believe that it is not and it's not uncommon to be unbalanced in way of passing over running.
If we could ever manage to get an early lead, then and only then will you see a more balanced attack, even with a RB of the caliber of Richardson. That's where our dilemma lies in getting our franchise RB more carries. It's not about the game plan. It's about game situations. If a defense is keying on your RB, then something is open in their passing defense for your offense to exploit. Take away the drop passes and I think that the score is more in our favor and that brings Trent back, front and center in our attack in the second half.
If the defense is trying to take away your running back, then you (try to) beat them with the pass and that's what occurred on Thursday night.
Like a chess match your moves are predicated by your opponents moves.
Last edited by FL_Dawg; 09/30/12 11:05 AM.
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I've been trying really hard to remain objective with Shurmur. I think he lacks passion on the field, and he doesn't exactly strike me as a motivator either. We've surrounded Shurmur with a wealth of experienced coaches that I hope he's drawing from when he's in doubt. I think that he seems a little more 'in control' this season than he came across last year and that's a product of experience. Playcalling, suspect at times for sure but I think overall he's doing a (somewhat...) better job than he was doing last year. Is he perfect? No... far from it. However he's a young coach, learning just as our young team is learning as well. We will see by the end of the year but IMO, he's got to win another season and that doesn't come without winning football games.
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Throwing the ball a ton is just what Pat does. Sam Bradford passed 590 times as a rookie in 2010 (third highest number of attempts, behind Peyton Manning and Drew Brees). Last season, Colt threw the ball 463 times in 13 games (which extrapolates to 570 attempts in 16 games; Ryan Fitzpatrick had the 6th highest number of attempts with 569).
Weeden has 167 passing attempts through 4 games. Those are numbers you're loath to ask of a Pro Bowler, let alone a rookie. But that's the game that Pat calls.
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Throwing the ball a ton is just what Pat does. Sam Bradford passed 590 times as a rookie in 2010 (third highest number of attempts, behind Peyton Manning and Drew Brees). Last season, Colt threw the ball 463 times in 13 games (which extrapolates to 570 attempts in 16 games; Ryan Fitzpatrick had the 6th highest number of attempts with 569).
Weeden has 167 passing attempts through 4 games. Those are numbers you're loath to ask of a Pro Bowler, let alone a rookie. But that's the game that Pat calls.
That should come as no surprise if you consider the offense that we are running.
Short passes are a substitute for the running game in the WCO.
Trent had 57 yards on 4 receptions and that was a better option for us to get him the ball Thursday night.
If the passing game is successful, then the defense will change their philosophy and try to take that away ... leaving our running game as the better option. Until which time teams start to try and take away our passing game, then their game plan will be to take away Richardson's running.
The pass can set up the running game and like wise, the run can set up your passing game.
A defense can't evenly take away both.
If they are taking away Trent, then they are inviting us to pass and we have. That's smart football in my book.
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I don't think that it's a great idea to have Tom Brady (or other) pass the ball 52 times, but sometimes it just ends up that way. Especially if you factor in being down and time is not on your side with no time outs to work with.
I plainly shown how we passed at a ratio of 2 to 1 when we were down no more than six points. I left the 4th quarter out of that equasion to show you that. Now you revert back to when we were down late in the game.
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In short I don't think that it was the game plan to have Weeds pass 52 times. Sometimes it just works out that way.
As I stated, even when we weren't down by a large number of points, "the game plan" had a rookie QB in his fourth start throwing at a ratio of 2 to 1 over rushing plays.
Common sense dictates you do not try to force your rookie QB into situations where he must carry the burden. You balance things out and have him slowly work on adding more passes as he grows within the system.
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This is a passing League today no matter how much you want to believe that it is not and it's not uncommon to be unbalanced in way of passing over running.
If that was the plan here early on, then why did we move up one spot and pay heavily in order to do that, for a RB we only ran 14 times? Point being, nobody is saying it isn't a passing league, I'm saying you don't take a rookie QB in his 4th start and call a game plan that forces him to throw twice as much as you run. That comes in time.
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If we could ever manage to get an early lead, then and only then will you see a more balanced attack, even with a RB of the caliber of Richardson. That's where our dilemma lies in getting our franchise RB more carries. It's not about the game plan. It's about game situations. If a defense is keying on your RB, then something is open in their passing defense for your offense to exploit.
That would mean you think they were stacking 8 men in the box very often which isn't the case here. You don't need "the lead" to rush, you need the game to "be close" to run. We were very close until almost the end of the 3rd quarter. Yet we passed twice as much as we ran. Obviously, that was the game plan.
Only QB's like Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Tony Romo are asked to pass at such a ratio. Why? Because they have proven the ability to do so. You don't ask a struggling rookie to do that. It lacks common sense. You must bring a rookie along by slowly laying the burden on his shoulders. If you want to ruin a rookie QB, you do exactly what Shurmer is doing by setting him up for failure by laying the game squarely on his shoulders very early on in his career.
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Take away the drop passes and I think that the score is more in our favor and that brings Trent back, front and center in our attack in the second half.
Dude, we were behind by only 6 points when Shurmer made Trent a non-factor. That not an excusable action no matter how hard you try.
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If the defense is trying to take away your running back, then you (try to) beat them with the pass and that's what occurred on Thursday night.
Like a chess match your moves are predicated by your opponents moves.
You refuse to look at how the game is supposed to be played. Just like you must stretch the field in order to keep oposing D's honest, the same holds true for rushing the ball if you expect play action to work.
You stick with your game plan until you fall far behind. We gave up on the run and used it far too little when we were within the hunt for the win, bottom line.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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If your the cook and you don't get to select the groceries all you can do is make the food taste as good as you can.
For all the people who are critical of Shurmur you may want to look at the history of great coaches in the NFL. Pick any name from Bill Walsh, John Madden, Tom Landry, Bill Belichick, and many many others. Things did not often start out with a bang.
We the fans know very little about Pat Shurmur. We do not attend practice. We do not sit in meetings. We are not a part of the coaching staff. We are not involved in game planning. We do not have access to coaching film.
Pat Shurmur may become a great coach given the time to prove what he can do.
He could also prove to be inept. We will never know unless he is given the chance.
From last year till now is hardly proof of anything.
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I don't think most of us are saying we have "proof positive" of anything. As a matter of fact, I myself want him to have at the very least the rest of this season to see what transpires.
But what I do look for is "indications" as to wheather he is improving or not. I haven't seen the mismangement of the clock and some of the rookie things I saw last year.
We actually didn't run on every first down this last game. To me, those are some positive signs thus far. Yet when I do see signs that show something I don't think is right, I will point those out as well.
To me, that's what these Shurmer threads are about. Sort of collecting information and forming opinions as the season progresses. Sometimes around here people jump to the conclusion that any and every time something negative is said about someone, you're trying to hang them out to dry.
For me that's not the case. I do believe with the investment made in TRich you have to give him more touches until and unless you are way behind in the game. So to that end, I didn't care for the overall playcalling last week. But I have also seen some positive signs.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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The team finished last year going 1-10 to end it.
The team is 0-4 this year. We know very little about Pat Shurmur? He is the head coach.
... Start winning soon.
Last edited by THROW LONG; 10/04/12 12:26 AM.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Just curious, what do you think the Browns record would be those 15 games if Billichek was HC? Jim Harbaugh? Parcels? Paul Brown?
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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