DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Put Weeden In The Shotgun

I agree and it's not like we don't use the shotgun formation.

NTU, but asking Weeden to be a roll out QB is a bit like asking a fish to swim out of water. You do that to mix things up on occasion and we have, but it also makes it easier for the defense to defend you ... Remember how often we rolled Colt out last season and what the consequences where.

J/C
The WCO is not built to run thru the shotgun. Pure and simple. Not to bring Colt up again, but i will to make a point on the WCO- Pat was stubborn last year leaving Colt behind center to run his WCO. It was plainly obvious that Colt performed better out of the gun. The same thing will happen this year- in order to develop this offense, it's not going to be run out of the gun. It will be maddening when he's under center, doing a play action when the O is flowing out of the gun but in the end we will have a more refined offense.

Weeds is coming along. I will still say i was not in favor of drafting him at #22- i just didn't like his age. I still wonder how far he would have slipped in the draft if we didn't take him there. I think when Wright went off the board to the titans- our fate was set with Weeds. His age is what it is- can't change that unless he finds the fountain of youth.

Weeds can make the NFL throws- i don't really know if anyone really doubted that- did they?? But when He's already 28..... well, just enjoy the next six years is all I'm saying. Maybe he will be the next Warner and Favre- but how realistic is it to think he will be playing until he's forty. Now, if someone wants to keep this post for 12 years to prove me wrong- i'll take that because tham means good things should finally come the browns way.

I doubt a new regime will draft a QB number one- not with the what the early returns on Weeds is already showing. Right now i hope we stay the course with this coaching staff. Say what you want about Holmgren, but he really did help Pat put together a well rounded staff. I will be unhappy if Heckert goes, he seems to be doing a fine job.

Nice post, and I agree with much of it. Basically, let me put it this way ....


If Weeden was going to be 22 instead of 29, I would be thinking we have our franchise quarterback.

To you and this thread in general

That said, as probably the biggest Weeden pimp pre and post draft...in many ways he's the anti-Frye, Quinn, McCoy...his overall stats aren't any better (skewed by week 1 of course) but I just love how he doesn't care about that...you could see some of that with the other QBs I mentioned. Even I said he's a 50-50 gamble and he STILL is, make no mistake about it, as 4 games aren't nearly enough either way, BUT anyone who has seen him play has to give him one thing already: he plays to WIN the game, not manage it...he has failed miserably in week 1, where a "game manager" probably would have won it but I said back then and now again: he played to win the game, to make plays, NOT manage a lead and hope his D would ship it home for him....3 of the 4 INTs vs Philly were RIGHT decisions....decisions and throws the QBs before rarely had the onions to make even when trailing let alone leading or tied like Weeds was. Of course the execution was poor, but you can't win it if you aren't in it....he simply "needed" those shots to get better and while still not perfect he improved on those 1on1 outside deep throws EVERY week culminating in a big play vs Baltimore (and of course plenty dropped ones), I mean, when was the last time we had 2nd and 30+ and saw our QB throw it vertically twice in a row accurately to make up for that mess of a situation?...most of his INTs were late in the game and his team behind and him trying to make something happen..I LOVE that, at least he tries and knows how to "manage" different situations and risks more when appropriate...

I even defend, along with Mayock, his INT vs the Rats...the pass wasn't all that bad, for me the INT was "only" 1/3 on Weeds for being a bit late and inches off, 1/3 on Benjamin not fighting for it (yet again, that's a big problem I see going ffw with him, you can see he doesn't like contact in any form...I understand if he goes oob 2yds earlier or takes a slide after a catch, and I saw him do both, that's ok and smart the way he's built...BUT I DONT understand why you don't help out your QB on a pass you can't make a catch on..at least defend it! Half the INTs were on passes to Benji and it's no coincidence imho)...and finally 1/3 of the credit goes to the DB, who made a nice move, anticipating AND catching it..not easy and those get dropped a lot by DBs

I agree that his footwork is poor compared to the rest of the QBs nowadays and I don't think it's gonna improve much...he is what he is: a pocket passing juggs machine...but he KNOWS that and he gets the ball out on time on most plays, I really like his quick decision making process, he's not gun shy at all, so contrary to popular prejudice around here he is NOT a fumble waiting to happen any more than your AVG NFL starting QB...in fact, he dropped back over 130 times the last 3 weeks and has not fumbled once...not bad for a rook QB, not bad for a statue QB..so either him, the OL and/or the coaches are doing something right, no?

Fun stat: he's on pace for 4k yds

I pretty much agree with your overall take on Weeden. For the most part, there is a lot to like about his game, but he is playing like a rookie and we're most likely going to see more pick-6's before the season is out. The one nit I'll pick is regarding the following:

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I even defend, along with Mayock, his INT vs the Rats...the pass wasn't all that bad, for me the INT was "only" 1/3 on Weeds for being a bit late and inches off, 1/3 on Benjamin not fighting for it (yet again, that's a big problem I see going ffw with him, you can see he doesn't like contact in any form...I understand if he goes oob 2yds earlier or takes a slide after a catch, and I saw him do both, that's ok and smart the way he's built...BUT I DONT understand why you don't help out your QB on a pass you can't make a catch on..at least defend it! Half the INTs were on passes to Benji and it's no coincidence imho)...and finally 1/3 of the credit goes to the DB, who made a nice move, anticipating AND catching it..not easy and those get dropped a lot by DBs

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I completely disagree. This pick-6 was ALL Weeden. There are routes (e.g. curls, arrows, etc.) where the WR can and should be expected to defend an errant pass. Benjamin was running a sprint out, however, and that route is not designed to come back to the QB in any way. It is not reasonable to expect a WR to break back on that route to defend a pass that was late and almost a foot behind him. Weeden has to get that ball out front where only his guy can get his hands on it. He didn't on that play and it cost us six. It was just a BAD throw. Period.

Yeah the DB made a good recognition play on the ball, but Weeden was staring him down (another rookie error) and the bad throw made the play a pretty easy one.

All these things are correctable though and I think he'll get better as he adjusts to the speed of the NFL game. As Mayock said after that play (and I'm paraphrasing here), "in college that ball was probably a completion and a gain of some sort. In the NFL, that isn't good enough."

Actually, the one thing that receivers are constantly told is not to allow the DB to undercut your route on a hook or out. If the DB guesses right, and undercuts the route, the result is often what we saw Thursday.

Here's a breakdown of "notable plays" from the game from "NFL Playbook":

http://m.nfl.com/blogs/2012/09/28/playbook-crew-highlights-key-plays-from-thursday/


Late in the third Quarter, the Browns were driving into Baltimore territory. Brandon Weeden faced a third-and-5 situation from the Ravens’ 43 yard line – with Baltimore leading the game 16-10.

Weeden was looking for rookie wide receiver Travis Benjamin on a three-step drop speed out.

A three-step-drop passing attack is about timing. On this particular play, we took note of several inefficiencies.

Firstly, the X-motion to a speed cut directly at the first down marker is a predictable play call, and cornerback Cary Williams anticipated the route and broke the on the ball beautifully. However, Benjamin must make more of an attempt to break his route back downhill, eliminating any opportunity for the defensive back to undercut the pass pattern.

Lastly, Weeden’s mechanics and footwork were less than stellar. The three-step speed cut is a fundamental route; it’s practiced daily and should be a muscle-memory routine for any NFL quarterback. Weeden, like many college quarterbacks in this era, comes from a shotgun-spread attack system at Oklahoma State. The technique and fundamentals of playing under center are much different and takes time to develop.

As Weeden takes the snap, notice the first step in his drop from center is with his left foot; for any right hander, it should be his right foot. This is what we call a false step. While seemingly meaningless and petty, it throws off the timing of the play. Weeden takes almost four full drop steps and delivers an accurate throw. But because the timing and rhythm of the route are out of sync, the pass is late to the target. This false step can be compensated for with supreme ball velocity — but Weeden’s fall-away throwing motion did not allow the pass to come out with enough zip. Weeden’s head movement and eyes immediately snapped far left and he stared down his receiver, making for an easily anticipated throw by cornerback Williams and essentially a game-closing interception for a touchdown.

The details are what separate wins from losses, big plays from big blunders. The Cleveland Browns are a promising young football team, but must correct the fundamental errors in order to right the ship.

That analysis is flawed. On a speed out, there is only so much you can do as a wideout. The physics really work against you because the momentum of the play is directly away from the QB. The ball isn't in the air long enough to make much, if any, adjustment to the route. Based on what I saw, I can't fault Benjamin on that one (unlike other times when he clearly could have worked harder to break up an INT). He had no real shot at the ball. It was just a bad throw.

I guess if you wanted to deflect some critcism off of Weeden, you could assign some blame to Shurmur for the play call. It WAS a pretty predictable call. Mostly, however, it was poor execution on Weeden's part. He'll learn though (I think).

He stopped, and stood there. He stayed frozen after the pick, where his speed should have been more than sufficient to chase down a DB over 70 or so yards. Benjamin ran a soft route, like he didn't even expect that the DB might try to undercut him. . Then for all of Benjamin's speed, he never even re-enters the picture trying to make a tackle.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012092700/2012/REG4/browns@ravens#menu=highlights&tab=recap

It was partially Weeden's fault, and partially Benjamin's fault.

All that being what it may be - If Weeden does his part correctly, Benjamin doesn't have to do anything "extra".

And judging from that analysis, that starts with having the correct foot (left) forward when getting under center, even before the snap happens.

That's part of the education of Weeden. He'll get somewhat better as he gains experience. I don't know that his footwork will ever be "Manning like". Regardless, both players played a part in that throw. Benjamin kind of rounded his route off and stood there. A hard plant/cut and that pass is never picked. This is not to excuse Weeden, because he did throw late. Regardless, if we had veteran receivers, Weeden would probably have 3 fewer INTs this year, because veteran a veteran probably would not have murdered the pass to Little at the 1 ..... and would break up passes they couldn't get to, even if they had to take a OPI call.

Weeden has thrown late on too many occasions. There is no debating that. Since he is learning a whole new offense, footwork, drop, and almost everything else, that's somewhat understandable.

Add to the things that Weeden has struggled with so far, he also has a very inexperienced cast around him. Passes that get caught, or that are broken up elsewhere, are incomplete passes, or worse, intercepted here. It's going to take time for the QB, and his receivers, to mature into quality NFL starters.

I'd have to go back and look at it more to see just what it is I think that Benjamin could have done, but the point remains - the INT happened because of Weeden. Period.
At most, it didn't NOT happen because of Benjamin. The INT had already been thrown... Benjamin just failed to bail Weeden out.

I'm not knocking Weeden - I'm just putting the blame squarely where it belongs. If he takes care of his side of things, nobody else is forced into a bad situation trying to cover his mistake. That WILL get better as he learns.


The odd thing to me, especially in reading about footwork above - is in wondering why the hell would he ever have the wrong foot forward pre-snap? He doesn't change from being right-handed to left mid-game. He only takes 3, 5, & 7 step drops... so the foot that he should step with first is the same every time.

So, WHY did he get it wrong? I find that odd.

We disagree. I've got no problem with that.

Let's hope Weeden and our WRs continue to improve.

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I'd have to go back and look at it more to see just what it is I think that Benjamin could have done, but the point remains - the INT happened because of Weeden. Period.

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I've tried to stay away from this one (apparently unsuccessfully ) but there was absolutely NOTHING Benjamin did wrong. The pick was ALL Weeden. Throwing dirt on Benjamin is a pure miss.

Weeds is a rookie. It's EXPECTED that he's going to make rookie mistakes. If he does it in year 3, then he's a bum and should follow in the footsteps of a guy like Couch out the door. But for the here-and-now he was late with his throw or should have elected NOT to throw it at all.

Jesus people...it's okay for a rookie to make rookie mistakes. Trying to assign blame elsewhere for the sole purpose of absolving Weeden is an unnecessary act of futility.

I love speed outs and any pass that travels 25 yards horizontally and 3 yards vertically. Those passes always work. It's my favorite part of the WCO! [/purple]

Well, if the play had been executed well and completed for a first down, it would have been a GREAT play.

I didn't see this article posted. It seems as though Grossi has been reading your posts!!

http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=20&post_id=5731

If I were coach of the Browns: I would scrap the two-back, two-tight end look of the offense at the beginning of games and line up three wide receivers and a tight end with Trent Richardson as the lone back.

As presently constituted, the Browns have only two assets on offense – Brandon Weeden’s arm and Richardson’s legs. I would do everything possible to accentuate both assets.

The plodding, 1980s-era fullback-tailback run game is not working here. It’s not only not working, it is deflating everybody. Richardson spends too much time running up the ankles of fullback Owen Marecic or guards Jason Pinkston and Shawn Lauvao. He needs room. They get in his way.

The Browns have to spread out defenses with their formation. The NFL likes to think it invents every new trend in the game. Sorry. The college game is far ahead on the offensive side. That’s why Bill Belichick visited Urban Meyer at Florida for so many years – to get a leg up on his NFL rivals.

The spread offense that has permeated the college ranks for years is now dominating the NFL game. All the dynamic NFL offensive teams are running variations of the college spread.

Weeden happens to be quite adept at operating the spread. It’s what he did at Oklahoma State. Unleash him.

The only time Weeden moves the ball is when the Browns are down by two scores and have no other recourse than to spread the field with receivers. Weeden is wired to operate under frantic circumstances. So dial it up that way from the start.

The Browns have tried to convert Weeden to a boring, 1980s, under-center, game manager. It is failing. They have no chance of winning that way.

Weeden should be in the shotgun formation at least 75 percent of the time. Richardson should be the only back in the backfield. He is the ideal one back because he can run with power or accelerate through the lanes inherent in a spread. He can stay in and block for Weeden or release and run a pass route. The spread will naturally put Richardson, as a pass receiver, in space. That is when he can turn five-yard catches into 20- or 40-yard gains.

The only negative to turning the Browns into a predominantly spread offense is that their receiving corps is so lacking. But, who knows? Maybe the spread would benefit the receivers, too. We know that the routes they’re trying to run right now are not working.

Besides, staying in the spread would keep essentially the same 11 players on the field for more than one play in a row. The needless, countless, pointless substitutions on offense every single play are counter-productive and exercises in coach’s micromanaging. Put 11 players on the field and let them play.

If I were coach of the Browns: I would ask defensive coordinator Dick Jauron, “How do you get your guys to play so hard for you?” And then I would incorporate what he says to the offense and special teams.

The defense is missing three central figures – defensive tackle Phil Taylor, linebacker Chris Gocong and cornerback Joe Haden. And yet the defense is the strength of the team.

That’s because Jauron generates such respect from his players – young and old alike – that they give him everything they’ve got.

If I were coach of the Browns: I would tell special teams coach Chris Tabor, “Give me one big play a game.”

The Browns are the most boring team in the NFL. They just are. One way to change that is to do something unpredictable on special teams.

Eric Mangini and his special teams aide, Brad Seely, would steal one game a year on special teams with something exotic. Reggie Hodges’ run on a fake punt in New Orleans is a prime example.

Browns return specialist Josh Cribbs is a former college quarterback. Use him on a throwback across the field to Travis Benjamin or Jordan Norwood. Get creative.

Fake a punt. Block a punt. Throw out of field goal formation. Just do something.

If I were coach of the Browns, I would do anything – anything – to win a game. Because time is running out.

IMO, Grossi has shurmer nailed.

I have to admit that Marecic actually had a nice seal block on Richardson's TD run. He closed down that corner nicely for Richardson.

What I would do is go to more 2 back with Richardson and Ogbonnaya .... single back with Richardson and 2 TE ...... and single back with Richardson and 3 WR. There are strengths to all of these formations, and we should mix things up.

We went almost 50% shotgun in the last game, and it does seem that Weeden is still more comfortable in the shotgun. His footwork is still, to be kind, a work in progress. However, we still have to be able to run plays from under Center, so I wouldn't go more than 50/50 on the shotgun.

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The needless, countless, pointless substitutions on offense every single play are counter-productive and exercises in coach’s micromanaging. Put 11 players on the field and let them play.

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Yes. 1,000 times YES.

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Weeden should be in the shotgun formation at least 75 percent of the time.

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Holy Hell...I gotta wonder how many tequila shots he'd slogged-down before deciding to go ahead and submit that sentence as a public opinion. That's insane, just insane...