|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186 |
Quote:
Yea RG looks really dynamic this year. But this is premature at best. Lets see where RG3 is in 3 years.
Agreed. Let's look at Cam Newton in Year Two.... and it's still early in his career.
Yup. Three years sounds like a good time frame for judgement to me-
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Toad wont step up to the plate on that hes already said it. He will site many talking heads that said we mucked the game but then says no one asked if he thought it was worth it or they payed to much. Just Mike mucked up. See he could play both sides that way.
He will tell you how MH messed up then leave himself open to say if it didnt work out then it wasnt me making the choices.
Very convenent, and for me easy to see through. Hence not really worth dicussing anymore.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
YOU can say otherwise, but the rest of the FOOTBALL WORLD says he blew it BADLY
Yea RG looks really dynamic this year. But this is premature at best. Lets see where RG3 is in 3 years.
Just to clarify, my quote has nothing to do with whether or not RG3 is good, bad, or indifferent. That quote revolves the card game between he, the Rams, and the Redskins, and whether or not Holmgren mis-played his hand. He was roundly criticized for not making his best offer first. Had he made that offer, he'd have landed the player he wanted.
The question of whether or not RG3 is worth it is still wide-open for debate, but I haven't gone there yet. He was my guy coming out of college, but even I felt a huge pang of sticker-shock when I heard the price-tag. I recall reading the terms of the deal and made a comment along the lines of..."I'm not sure I would have done that deal." It's a helluva price. If he turns out as good as I thought he would, hell yeah he's going to be worth it, but he's going to miss time with injuries, and we don't know what will happen if defenses find some flaws. TBD.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Toad wont step up to the plate on that hes already said it. He will site many talking heads that said we mucked the game but then says no one asked if he thought it was worth it or they payed to much. Just Mike mucked up. See he could play both sides that way.
Clearly you can't see there's two different discussions in that quote. I'm done with that goofiness.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
Quote:
Toad wont step up to the plate on that hes already said it. He will site many talking heads that said we mucked the game but then says no one asked if he thought it was worth it or they payed to much. Just Mike mucked up. See he could play both sides that way.
…font color="white">
Clearly you can't see there's two different discussions in that quote. I'm done with that goofiness.
I see it. I also see that Mike offered up more then anyone else up to that point in time ever to move up 2 spots in the draft. He was outbid by someone else that was even crazier.
To me that isnt blowing it, to me its getting outbid. The media would have laughed at us if we had made an offer of 5 1st round picks but that would have gotten it done correct? Everyone in the leauge had just as much ammo as us its just how much you feel is more then enough to spend on 1 target.
By your account every GM that has made an offer to a team and got outbid blew it.
Buffalo Blew it on Gordon then because they had more ammo in the sup draft and put in a 3rd round bid. They clearly wanted him or they wouldnt have put in a bid.
I disagree with that line of thinking. I also dont think RG3 was worth what washington paid for him and would be upset had the Rams taken our better offer.
The only thing I do agree on is Mike spouting off to the press, in that matter he did indeed blow it.
Just for a second let me ask you these 2 questions. They are opinion questions and Im just interested in your thoughts.
If we had offered up our 2 firsts and our 2nd this year and our 1st next year to start and then the Rams said ok cleveland won and then no other team came out and said they put in a bid (like Mike did) would you be tearning up Mike for overbidding?
Im almost sure the media would have torn into us like never before.
2nd do you think the skins overpaid for RG3 at this point in time?
I do personally, I thought so then and still think so now. As you said TBD.
Thanks in advance if you take the time to answer. 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,038
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,038 |
I don't know how Holmgren can be blamed for blowing that in a BLIND auction.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Who cares? We didn't get RGIII, Holmgren's gone, moving on. 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,038
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,038 |
Sir, yes sir. Moving on, sir. (where's my salute graemlin?) 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
I think what Toad is saying is not that Holmgren blew it because he got outbid, but that he blew it because he was told he had one chance to put forth his best bid, but he didn't do that, then tried to up his bid, and then cried foul when he was rebuffed.
Edit: Forgot to add that while I agree that Holmgren got burned by trying to be cute with his bid for RGIII, I'm glad it happened, because I didn't want us to make the trade for that cost.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
Zzzzz (j/c)
We wont be able to judge the impact of the RG3 trade for a very long time. There are concerns about his long term durability and we need to see what all those picks turn into. We could be looking at Hershel Walker for all we know.
Also how would Holmgren be responsible for the trade? Clearly he was the one who complained in public but wouldnt he at the very least be working with Heckert on any trade proposal?
I'm pretty happy with T Rich and Weeden right now. With Heckert at the helm I assume we can get better value than spending a fortune on RG3. Lord I hope we keep Heckert.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Apparently Holmgren has scheduled a press conference for Tuesday afternoon. Think he may be just cutting ties immediately? (going against what JH3 said on Tuesday)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
I think the ties have already been cut, regardless of what we're being told.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
I'll laugh if he comes in with a troll face mask and says Jimmy gave him an 8 year extension.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Quote:
Think he may be just cutting ties immediately?
Pack up, get out of town before winter, move to a mansion in the Northwest, collect millions. I'd take that route, no problem.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,586
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,586 |
Quote:
Regardless how you or I or anyone else feels, the proof is that Holmgren didn't make his best offer. He didn't offer the absolute most he'd intended on paying. He proved that by trying to up his offer. Had he not tried to up his offer, he could have said "We offered the absolute most we could have in order to feel as though we'd retain the ability to continue to build a team. The Redskins made a better offer. Goodluck to them."
The problem is that he miscalculated, misjudged, and missed the mark. There isn't anything else to call that besides a failure.
Dan Snyder is a joke and everyone knows it. He paid WAY too much for RG3 and to try and say Holmgren and Co. should have paid even more is a sick joke.
Yeah, they should have set a new NFL record in the overpayment department. That would have been a wise move.
Sometimes you make some good points, but this certainly isn't one of them.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 51,039
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 51,039 |
In 6 games, RG3 has thrown for 1343 yards, completing 70.2% of his passes, with 5 TD and 2 INT. He is averaging 8.34 yards/pass attempt. He has also rushed for 379 yards and 6 TD.
The Redskins are the 3rd highest scoring team in the NFL, scoring 29.7 PPG so far this year. They have scored 22 TD, which is highest in the NFL. (3 have been defensive TDs ...... we have 2, by comparison)
He's done this with one of their prized free agent WRs, Pierre Garcon, having played only 3 of 6 games.
He's been pretty damn good so far, and if he continues to develop, he'll be well worth the investment in draft picks. If not, then he won't be. It's still too early to know for sure, but he seems to be on a path to a pretty damn good career.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,853
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,853 |
He's gonna remain good until teams figure out what he likes to do..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
Regardless how you or I or anyone else feels, the proof is that Holmgren didn't make his best offer. He didn't offer the absolute most he'd intended on paying. He proved that by trying to up his offer. Had he not tried to up his offer, he could have said "We offered the absolute most we could have in order to feel as though we'd retain the ability to continue to build a team. The Redskins made a better offer. Goodluck to them."
The problem is that he miscalculated, misjudged, and missed the mark. There isn't anything else to call that besides a failure.
Dan Snyder is a joke and everyone knows it. He paid WAY too much for RG3 and to try and say Holmgren and Co. should have paid even more is a sick joke.
Yeah, they should have set a new NFL record in the overpayment department. That would have been a wise move.
Sometimes you make some good points, but this certainly isn't one of them.
Again, regardless of whether or not you feel Snyder has been a joke (you'd be right  ) and regardless of whether or not you feel that RG3 was worth it (seems like he is, but it's way too early to make that call) the lynch-pin of the entire discussion revolves around Holmgren realizing he low-balled the Rams then tried to up the offer. That's a clear indication Holmgren didn't make his best offer which he was instructed to do. That was his critical mistake, that was where he failed. The whining to the season ticket holders was just business, but the whining in front of the camera's was just embarrassing, though irrelevant to the main issue.
IF Weeden studs out and our draft picks that we didn't give away turn out to help us become a playoff team, it'll have been a fortunate mistake by Holmgren but a mistake none-the-less.
As for RG3, think about it this way: If Weeden becomes a good QB and is thus viewed as having been worth the 22nd pick in the draft at the at of 28, it wouldn't be a stretch to say RG3 would have been worth 3 1st round picks at the age of 22 if he keeps doing what he's done so far. Everyone knows how badly I wanted that guy, and he's showing that he's every bit the stud I thought him to be. The talent and ability is unmatched when you factor in his wheels and his passing ability. If he gives the Redskins 10 good years of what he's done so far, he wouldn't have just been worth it, he'll have been a steal. The question I always had with RG3 is the same one I've always had with Vick: How in the Hell can a person be that fast and allusive yet not know how to avoid taking a big hit? Vick has no instincts in that regard, and neither does RG3. We saw it in college and he didn't get out of the first half of his rookie season without getting a concussion because he didn't know how to protect himself.
Setting all that aside, if people are going to accurately judge Holmgren on how he handled the negotiations, they have to focus on the mechanics of it, not on how RG3 or Weeden ultimately do. He wanted a player. He was told to make his best offer. He had more picks to offer. He was outbid by a team with less to offer. He wanted a do-over. He didn't get it. He lost out on the player. It's a rather open-and-shut case. We may get lucky with the ultimate outcome, but that has no bearing on whether or not Holmgren failed at the poker table.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 51,039
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 51,039 |
Quote:
He's gonna remain good until teams figure out what he likes to do..
That's my mantra about all young QBs. Can they adjust when defenses adjust to their tendencies and favorite throws? That is the biggest unknown about young QBs.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,586
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,586 |
All you have to do is look at other similar type trades to move up to attain a QB in such a manner to see that we did make an offer that was more than fair.
The offer and subsiquent deal that Snyder made in comparing other such scenarios was WAY beyond the norm. It was an unprecidented offer well beyond anything that had been offered in NFL history.
I believe the very notion that we should have made a similar offer or offered even more to acquire RG3 would have been far too much to even consider.
Just because Snyder offered WAY too much, doesn't mean we should have made an even bigger mistake by offering more.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
I believe the very notion that we should have made a similar offer or offered even more to acquire RG3 would have been far too much to even consider.
And yet...unbelievably...Holmgren did just that, didn't he...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,586
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 80,586 |
Did he make a counter offer? Yes
But how much more did he offer from his original offer and did it in any way line up with Snyders offer?
Neither of us know the answer to that....
Because if it was a better offer, why wouldn't it have been accepted?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,147
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,147 |
Quote:
Quote:
While you are inordinately happy about Holmgren leaving I'd be willing to bet that the Joe Banner regime may make you less than ecstatic.
Be careful what you wish for.......
Entirely possible. Tough negotiators are often tough to swallow for the fans. He could be a hit like he was in Philly, or he could come here and bomb, but at least there's a history of success. One mantra that the fans have voiced consistently over the year's is that a reason we've failed is the lack of historically successful people at the top of our pyramid. We've come up craps most of the time with rookie shot-callers. I'm ready for a guy with a historically proven record of accomplishment to take a stab.
I don't have to like Banner. If he brings to us the kind of mojo that he helped bring the Eagles I'd be extremely pleased. I'm anxious to see how this thing progresses.
In a perfect world I'd like to see Heckert stick. I'd understand if he had to go as well. I really want Shurmur to turn the corner. I feel as though in many ways the offense is progressing, yet I don't know how much of that is Shurmur or Chilly. Regardless, I've seen receivers blowing open like I haven't seen around here in a while, and if you really look at the group, they aren't special. Not even close. The other side of the coin is that he confounds me with some of his play-calling at times. I'm questioning his game-management, and in his second year that's a very bad thing. Such was one of the great failings of Romeo, who has taken his midas touch to the Chiefs and transformed them into the 1-5 juggernaut that you see today, hehe.
I dunno...in the big, BIG, BIG BIG picture if wiping out an entire regime means wiping away the losing taint that we've experience from stewards named Lerner, then by all means...drop the axe. There are parts here that work but the first step in victory is sacrifice, to borrow a phrase, so I'd understand if it's time.
Holmgren hasn't lived up to the billing, but I would have liked to give him the chance to finish out the year as an audition to stay, not just as a transitional guy. The odds aren't good, though. He earned his way out. Nice try, no dice.
This was an inevitability, and the result of a blessing.
toad...doing that balancing act on top of the fence, choosing your words very carefully, huh?
You do know, I have more than one quote from you stating you wanted Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur to stay on not just through 2012...but through 2013...statements you made just a couple of months ago.
Your stated position is, you wanted to keep Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur through next season, 2013...that is, until the wind blew in a different direction and you see an advantage to sway back the other way. 
Nice balancing act with your lil toad finger in the wind....
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
You do know, I have more than one quote from you stating you wanted Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur to stay on not just through 2012...but through 2013...statements you made just a couple of months ago.
Mac, you've done an amazingly efficient job of making an ass out of yourself so far this year.
Please, don't stop now.
Go ahead and post those quotes again. All you'll get is more of the same where other posters chide you, make fun of you, and question your sanity because just like Haslam's quotes where you totally misinterpreted what he said, you've no idea what my quotes really meant. The scary part is that they aren't ambiguous in the least.
By all means, quote away.  After watching Shurmur make what I would call THE boneheaded coaching decision of the year in the NFL so far, I just gotta see how you'd try to defend keeping him. I need a good laugh after watching us fall to 1-6.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
After watching Shurmur make what I would call THE boneheaded coaching decision of the year in the NFL so far, I just gotta see how you'd try to defend keeping him. I need a good laugh after watching us fall to 1-6.
it's a close call. throwing deep twice and then punting (right after calling a time-out) on the opponent 41 w/ 6min left in a game you are down by 4 is tough to top.
but, Fisher came pretty close last week (if he didn't top it). playing super-conservative where he admitted he was trying to just setup a 50yd FG for his kicker to tie the game at the end (and ended up setting up a 66yd FG, which Zuerlein missed) is absolutely appalling and ridiculous as well.
of course, last week Garrett did something similar himself where he let the clock wind down to kick a 51yd FG rather than try to get close first (it was 2nd down).
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
linky This article actually made me re-think my position on Holmgren's tenure. And not for the better.... The Morning Kickoff … by Tony Grossi High hopes dashed: My first reaction when Mike Holmgren agreed to serve as Randy Lerner’s “credible, serious leader” at Christmastime 2009 was “Wow … finally.” There was a pause and then this thought: “What if this doesn’t work? Lerner will have to sell.” So here we are. Lerner has handed off the Browns to Jimmy Haslam for $1.05 billion. And today marks Holmgren’s last appearance in front of Cleveland media as Browns president. Last week in Chicago, Haslam outlined a graceful exit for Holmgren when Joe Banner arrives as Browns CEO on October 25. Haslam said Holmgren would work with Banner over the next 3 ½ months “to transition … in a seamless fashion” and then retire at the end of the year. In truth, Holmgren has said his goodbyes to everyone in the Browns’ support staff. He has had no influence on any Browns business since Lerner crushed him with the news of his intent to sell in June. Make no mistake, Lerner’s decision blindsided him. After today’s press appearance, Holmgren will strap on his helmet for the final time and ride his Harley out of the pages of Browns history, his saddlebags loaded with Lerner’s Monopoly money. The deal Holmgren signed with Lerner was reported to be $40 million over five years. This was merely the third year. Whatever the severance package, Holmgren’s likely final contract as an NFL coach or executive – he’ll be 65 next June -- secured him the distinction of hauling in more money in his career than any non-player, non-owner and non-commissioner in NFL history. Bill Parcells had one more Super Bowl championship than Holmgren, but he couldn’t match Holmgren’s career earnings. After leaving the community-owned Green Bay Packers, Holmgren hit the lottery by signing up with billionaires Paul Allen, Microsoft co-founder, and the Lerner Family Trust. Holmgren’s legacy: A number of names can be associated with Holmgren’s short tenure with the Browns as – Haslam’s words – “the de facto owner.” There were quarterbacks Seneca Wallace, Jake Delhomme, Colt McCoy and Brandon Weeden. There were executives Tom Heckert and Bryan Wiedmeier. There were old buddies Gil Haskell, Ray Rhodes, Nolan Cromwell and Dick Jauron. And there was Pat Shurmur, the nephew of the late Fritz Shurmur, one of Holmgren’s favorite assistant coaches from his glory days in Green Bay. Holmgren’s one and only coaching search was symbolic of the minimal effort he put into the awesome position that he held. He interviewed three coaches – Perry Fewell, the minority candidate to comply with the Rooney Rule; Mike Mularkey, whom he didn’t know; and Shurmur. He said he also talked with Bill Cowher and Jon Gruden. In truth, the job was always earmarked for a young offensive coach in the stable of agent Bob LaMonte, Holmgren’s long-time friend and business associate. The only serious candidates were Shurmur and Eagles offensive coordinator Marty Mornhinweg. Mornhinweg’s pathetic record as Detroit Lions head coach eliminated him. To me, Holmgren’s epitaph is this: He fired Jim Brown and Lew Merletti – two icons in their profession. And then he wouldn’t take accountability for either act. He denied both moves after I reported them with The Plain Dealer. Brown would later blow the lid off Holmgren’s denial, through team spokesman Neal Gulkis, that Brown’s role as executive advisor “hasn’t changed.” Brown released a scathing letter in the summer of 2010 lambasting Holmgren for disrespecting him by offering him a token position as a greeter. (The two have since patched up their differences, thanks partially to an intervention by Haslam.) As for Merletti, the former U. S. Secret Service director and Browns senior vice president of security, a paradigm of class and honor who was personally recruited by Al Lerner, Holmgren banished him from the team’s headquarters in Berea for reasons he never explained. Merletti has spent the past two years at the Lerners’ Brooklyn N.Y. Holdings, LLC, office space on the grounds of the Cuyahoga County Airport. Holmgren effectively received a retraction, or clarification, from The Plain Dealer on my story of Merletti’s ouster in May of 2011. But the power play by Holmgren destroyed relations, for good, with Norma Lerner, Al’s widow. The only thing that could save Holmgren from that point was a complete resurgence of the Browns’ football program. And on that front, Holmgren was an abject failure. No energy: My initial excitement about Holmgren taking over the Browns’ fortunes was based on the assumption he would coach. Coaching is what made Holmgren a multi-millionaire. He took the Packers to two Super Bowls – winning one, thanks to Clevelander Desmond Howard’s 244 return yards, including a 99-yard kickoff touchdown return – and the Seahawks to one. But by the time Lerner lured him out of semi-retirement with his millions, Holmgren didn’t have the energy to continue coaching. And Lerner gave Holmgren the option of coaching or not. Holmgren was never one of those coaches who slept in the office, anyway. When he was given total authority by Lerner to shape the franchise whichever way he wished, he did the absolute minimum. On sales occasions with VIP corporate customers, it was not uncommon for Holmgren to say a few words and slip out before dinner. Certainly, he was not a salesman. But Holmgren’s minimal effort infected the entire organization. If he could coast, anybody could. There is a story making the rounds that on at least one occasion since Haslam came onto the scene, Haslam beat Holmgren to the office – and Haslam started the day from Knoxville, Tenn.,; Holmgren from his condo in Bratenahl. I asked Jim Brown what he felt Holmgren’s legacy was with the Browns. Brown, who has reconciled with Holmgren, said, “I don’t see a lot of positives. It’s obvious that something didn’t work. It’s so obvious it’s just not right to talk about it.”
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,657
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,657 |
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
That's what you got from the article?
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,657
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
That's what you got from the article?
Not totally, but it's definitely in there.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
"Sour grapes" is usually used when the person was/is wrong.
In this case Tony was correct. There might be some "gotcha" in there but it's hardly sour grapes.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
No way. Tony Grossi is ALWAYS wrong. He was wrong when he told Paul Ryan which guy was Brandon Weeden. He was wrong when he radioed in to Pat's headset and told him he should punt on 4th and 1. And he's sure as heck wrong here.
What a depressing, but in no way surprising, article.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563 |
I do see some sour grapes in there, but mostly, it's a sad tale if accurate.
And I don't know that it is. It is, afterall, Tony Grossi, he's demonstrated animosity towards Randy Lerner, so you always have to watch for that slant.
But yeah, Depressing.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,038
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,038 |
It may be accurate.
May be sour grapes.
May be a combination of both.
Just before the season Grossi wrote an article claiming the feel of TC was just like before the '85 season when the Browns took off. The feel of TC with Holmgrens coach, with Holmgrens GMs players...he was buying into the plan.
Now he's not.
I'm indifferent on Holmgren but there are two sides to every story.
Grossi is just going where the wind is blowing him now.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563 |
Grossi always goes whichever way the wind blows...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
To be fair, there was a lot of optimism to be had before training camp.
Then the team was sold.
Then Pat Shurmur proved to be an utter flop as a head coach.
And then the lack of work ethic from Mike Holmgren, which was apparent all across the organization from the lack of accountability to the lack of urgency in front office moves, where they simply coasted in recreating the roster, thinking they could go at a leisurely pace in, at least, a 5 year plan.
you had a good run Hank.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887 |
Quote:
When he was given total authority by Lerner to shape the franchise whichever way he wished, he did the absolute minimum
I have to agree with Grossi on this. He did do the minimum. He did the minimum on hiring a coach, who was a family friend, had the same agent, had little Offensive Coordinator Experience with little success and no prior head coaching experience. Awesome freaking hire there bud.
It would have been one thing to bring Pat in as the Assistant Head coach for a year or two while Holmgren took the Headset training Pat. The game is too fast for Pat right now, maybe he will someday get another shot and be a good coach but right now I just don't see it. And I can't fathom what he did to earn the hire in the first place. With all things being equal, had Pat not been from the Holmgren Tree and Not had the same agent would he have gotten the job based on his past body of work??? No way.
Holmgren screwed the pooch on that one. I just hope we can find our Harbaugh that will come in with the talent here and add a few pieces and turn this thing around. I don't want another tear down I really really don't.
![[Linked Image from mypsn.eu.playstation.com]](http://mypsn.eu.playstation.com/psn/profile/Letherface.png)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563 |
Quote:
I have to agree with Grossi on this. He did do the minimum.
I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this,, but Grossi has no idea what Holmgren did on a day to day basis. So agreeing with him doesn't prove anything.
I mean, it's damn clear that Grossi had a problem with all things Lerner and Holmgren was a Lerner hire.. so how can we take anything he says as truth.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887 |
Quote:
Quote:
I have to agree with Grossi on this. He did do the minimum.
I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this,, but Grossi has no idea what Holmgren did on a day to day basis. So agreeing with him doesn't prove anything.
I mean, it's damn clear that Grossi had a problem with all things Lerner and Holmgren was a Lerner hire.. so how can we take anything he says as truth.
I don't care what Grossi knows or doesn't know. Mike's action speaks louder than words. Since joining up we have gone 5-11, 4-12 and now in the middle of a 1-6 season. I don't care about the ring of honor stuff, what brand of toilet paper is in the bathrooms or any other garbage behind the scene. Mike was brought here to turn the franchise around and he did the bare minimum in that by 1) Hiring Pat Shurmur and 2) sitting back collecting a pay check while his hand picked family friend non-qualified head coach looks clueless and unprepared. Yup really working hard for that 10mil a year.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
My initial excitement about Holmgren taking over the Browns’ fortunes was based on the assumption he would coach.
and you made sure you asked him a million times in a million different ways, didn't you Tony?
there are definitely some distressing things in there, but Tony cannot stay out of his own way on his "talking" points. Holmgren didn't come here to coach. He came here to oversee a franchise. He may not have done it well, but that was his task.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,563 |
Whatever floats your boat, if you feel that way, that's one thing, but taking Grossis word for it isn't a great idea..
Like I said,, if that's how you feel, who am I to tell you to think differently.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren Officially Gone
|
|
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
