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With another win in the books...lets revisit this conversation as there is discussion in the post game thread about Shurmur...
As he continues to develop as a head coach...
Lets go into his biggest strengths and weaknesses and go there to see if we have a solid head coach in Shurmur. Give him some plus minus to see if he is worthwhile and worth keeping around.
Positives:
One that Can't be overlooked in my opinion is that the guys continue to play hard for him. We were bad last year and we faught til the final gun of the final game. We havent been good this year, but we havent stopped fighting. Now we did kinda lay down against Buffalo and Indy...but I think it was a different kind of lay down. I think we came out flat in both of those games, rather than didnt fight. We just faught gamely. So his men fight for him, they play for him, and they work for him.
+2
He has sound game plans. It's very rare that we arent in a game, or dont have a chance entering the 4th quarter. It's been approximately 4 games in 2 years that we havent had a chance in the 4th quarter, and only once this year...and that was a game we had a 14-0 lead in. As much as people talk bad about his style...we're often in games and almost always have a chance to win late in games
+1
Pretending the Chargers game was a trend...Shumur may be on to something in his style of offense running...We passed a lot and it has seemed to do a good job pulling defenses back. Teams arent stacking the box anymore. They arent forcing us to throw the ball to beat them because teams know our passing game is terrible. Our passing game is a threat now, and Shurmur has done a good job this year in beating defenses that have overplayed the run. While it hasnt 100% shown up on the scoreboard and in the record book...we're running our offense as dictated by the defenses and the talent that we have. Now that we've done that, if we begin to use the balance allowed by teams being worried about the pass...this may really benefit our offense and we can use TRich to the full extent of his ability. But regardless, due to what we've done so far...our offense is capable of balance now
+1
Our staff as a whole has a lot of experience and seems to have been helpful to shurmur...I think that our offensive playcalling has improved over last year...while still an enormous work in progress. He's getting better. Thats the point there.
+1
He's young, and new at the job. He's gotten better, and has the ability to get better. Pat Shurmur as a head coach has not reached his ceiling.
+1
Unfazed by criticism...does his thing and seems uninfluenced by outsider perspective...thats an important thing for coaches...while the media may hate it...who cares
+1
Negatives:
Playcalling in a vacuum. He often calls plays and runs an offense where things dont often build upon itself...it doesnt use previous plays to setup future plays
-1
General passivity. Doesn't seem to have that whole killer, step on the throat mentality.
-1
Doesnt seem to always put his guys in the best position to succeed...Has run a toss sweep to Owen Marecic, handed off to Alex Smith. Threw Brandon Weeden 50+ times more than once in his first 5 games (that being said, it has seemed to benefit Weeden since then). Hasnt utilized TRich to his most effective (however, he's been needed to be worked in because of a lack of preseason and hasnt completely adjusted to the speed of the game yet - well, til this week in the mud). Eh.
-1
Doesnt seem to accept responsibility when talking to the media. Does he? We dont know, but we dont hear that. We're well under .500 with him as the head coach, and ultimately, he is the man where accountability lies. If we win its cuz of the players, if we lose, its cuz of him...thats the way it goes in sports...he doesnt seem to accept that yet. Makes him unlikeable.
-1
Overall record. Not very good
-2
Non-siders:
OL play has been mediocre...HOWEVER...its been much improved this year in recent games. Weeden isnt getting sacked, and we had a 100 yard rusher, and averaged over 5.0 ypc against the 3rd ranked rushing D in the rain off a bye. Thats improved OL. More time in the system, more success...uh oh?
+0
Inconsistent issues. One week, its the special teams, the next its the defense, the next its the offense, the next its penalties...The issues are very different every week. That means more likely than not, that our coaching staff is coaching these guys up. If we had the SAME issues every week, then it would be a bigger problem, because we arent working to fix our issues. Theres been different issues every week...theyre working. However, having issues every week is a yuck.
+0
Youth on the roster means...unique circumstances.
Theyre buying in +1
Theyre making a lot of mistakes...being undisciplined -1
They work hard and are getting MUCH better +1
We still arent very good -1
Shurmur has his work cut out for him...we arent winning but were never out of games...
+0
I got the man as a +1 as a head coach...That sounds keepable to me, but he has a ton of getting better to do.
There are plenty of negatives, but there are plenty of positives too. I dont think that Shurmur is a finished product, and thats the biggest thing for me. We have to project where his coaching is going to go. Is it going to get better? Is it going to get worse? Will he plateau/stagnate?
Whats the rub? Ive questioned my allegiance to this man's coaching, but I think I still have his back. The Buffalo and Indy games were ugly and disheartening, but the Cincy and SD wins bring optimism...Even the Giants 1st Q, the D against the Eagles, the O against Baltimore, Cincy, and most of the game against the Giants bring optimism...
Talk...what about Shurmur still...
What does he have to do to show he's worth a keep.
Is it bottom line based? needs x amount of wins. Do we need to keep improving? Are there things that we HAVE to start doing differently? What does he have to do?
I dont think the man is sunk...His fate isnt decided 100% yet, despite the articles last week, and the overreaction to Haslam in the booth last week. Shurmur has a lot to do to stay on the job...What is it?
What I think is that we have to beat the teams we're supposed to beat from now on. I think we gotta beat Oakland, KC, and Washington and be .500 in our division this year to feel like Shurmur should stay.
We could win all of those games 6-3 and I'd be fine with it. If we do that, and give Denver one heck of a challenge...I think we're in on Shurmur.
Baltimore, BYE, @Dallas, Pittsburgh, @Oakland, KC, Washington, @Denver, @Pittsburgh.
@Denver is the only game left on the schedule that looks like it shouldnt be a win. You can beat the newly injured Ravens team at home. Dallas is mediocre, Pittsburgh is down but still tough, Oakland isnt good, KC is horrible, Washington is still mediocre. Denver is very good right now, but theyve still won ugly...but by the end of the season...they should be in optimum form...That being said...Manning isnt very good outside in December/January...maaaaaaybe we got a shot there.
We play 8 more...and they are all winnable. Depending on what Denver at Pitt look like late in the season (if Pitt is out of contention, you never know)...
The first 6 are very winnable. Dallas out of the bye brings more optimism...the lack of mental toughness for Dallas makes that also that way.
Whats shurmur gotta do? or if the decision is made...why. why is he or isnt he...the guy?
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I don't get where the value of the +/- comes from. Shouldn't some things be worth more than others?
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just my $.02
I keep em all about right there. If anyone has it different...i'dlike for that to be the discussion...whats his positives and negatives...whaddya got for him?
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Still not thrilled with his play calling , and that starts with the formations he starts with ( given the down and yardage needed )..
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Quote:
As he continues to develop as a head coach...
Exactly where is there evidence of this?
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his men fight for him, they play for him, and they work for him.
They're playing for pride, they work for money.
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He has sound game plans.
There seems to be very little game planning as evidenced by the low scoring at the start of the games and at the beginning of the 3rd quarters. That's when game planning can be most noticed. With the exception of yesterday, I can't remember ever scoring on our first drive. Not saying we haven't just that I can't remember.
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our offense is capable of balance now
It has been capable of balance since week one, the fact that he's just now getting around to a run-pass balance is merely sign that he's not completely stupid. Having said that, let's see what the ratio is when it's not pouring rain or snowing.
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our offensive play calling has improved over last year...while still an enormous work in progress. He's getting better.
I don't see any proof that he's getting better, he has shown repeatedly and recently that he's situationally inept, calling some of his most ineffective and detrimental plays on 3rd & 4th & short.
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He's young, and new at the job. He's gotten better,
This is just something you keep saying, not something you're proving. Regardless of personal opinion on the matter, he's still 3-13 over the last 16 games and 2-6 on the season.
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Unfazed by criticism...does his thing and seems uninfluenced by outsider perspective.
Or he's just stubborn. Or he cares and modifies his behavior accordingly, ala running more in the face of pass happy criticism. Whatever the case, you don't really know one way or the other but choose to give him a +1 regardless of that.
Overall your scoring system is skewed toward the results you wish to obtain. We'll see where we are at the end of the season, then we'll see what Haslam thinks. I doubt Shurmur can put together more than three more wins the rest of the season. In that case, he's probably looking for a job in January at the latest.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Shurmur isn't winning the Browns any games because he outcoaches/outthinks/overachieves the other coach. We aren't seeing this team win any games that nobody thought they were going to.
I didn't read all of that, but if you can find a way to give Shurmur a +1, I'm sure I could find a way to give Romeo Crennell a +3, for his time here. Crennell is coach of a 1-6 Kc team right now.
He wasn't good enough to stay when he was here, and neither one of these are good enough to stay now.
The best thing I have to say about Pat Shurmur is he is the " current " Browns head coach, and being a Browns fan, I wish him the best of success.
Cm'on man, we can read the standings, we may just be regular guys, but we can read the standings.
Another thing.
They've got to fix the special teams coverage. They've got to fix the special teams returns.
What happened to the commitment to holding onto and getting interceptions by the defense that was mentioned going into game 1.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Shurmur is an "offensive-minded" head coach. We won 7-6 at home in the rain against a team in a tailspin. This wasn't some great coaching achievement. His best move was benching that bum Marecic. Who knows what made that decision.
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if Shurmur can beat the Ravens next game.. and get a victory against the Steelers.. then MAYBE I would consider keeping him..
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I'm gonna do what Haslam and Banner are going to do. wait until the end of the season and see where we stand. I'm going to weight it in favor of keeping Shurmur only because in the two years he's been here, a few things have happened that would sabatage almost any HC.
1. the lock out
2. half your players (many of the starters) are first or second year players..
I don't need to go into why each of those things can sabatage the best laid plans.
But, even with that,, if we end up with 3 or 4 wins, it won't be enough for Haslam. he'll want to move on. IMO
heckert, without a doubt should be retained. he's building something here and we have one of the most experienced coaching staffs and scouting staffs around.
I actually like the direction of this team. I mean, I know the Chargers have been struggling of late, but still, that team is explosive.. and they imploded instead. thank you Cleveland weather and our D. Mostly the D because the Browns O played in the same weather.
Shurmur,, hell if I know if he's the long term answer, but this I do know, the Steelers did the same as we are doing in 1969 with a young Chuck Noll as HC.. lost a lot of games had trouble building and then... well, you know the rest.
What if Are Rooney fired Noll after a couple of years? where would they be today.
by the way,, Noll wasn't any better than Shumur is today in the beginning. neither were his teams records but piece by piece, the put together a young core group and Boom,, 4 superbowl wins later.. they have a method.
And they've stuck with it.
If I had to make a decision today, I'd stick with the coaching staff and heckerts staff.. and move forward..
But that's JMO
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Week 1 We rushed only 22 times yet netted 4.5 yards per rush. We passed 35 times with only 12 completions averaging only 3 yards per pass attempt. Why would you give up the run averaging 4.5 yards per carry and burden a rookie QB with the load when the run is working so well. I don't see a "+ anything there. Week 2 We passed better against Cinci but still did not balance the attack when the run was working very well. 23 rushes averaging 5.7 rushes per carry. 26 for 37 on passes averaging 7.9 yards per pass play. Week 3 Against B uffalo we rushed only 13 times and passed 43 times. Week 4 Against Baltimore we rushed 17 times and passed 52 times. Week 5 Now against the Giants we only rushed 19 times. However against them we were way behind which forces you to give up on the run. Yet that is still more rushes in this game than we rushed against each of our opoents the previous two weeks. Week 6 A balanced attack. 34 rushes and 29 pass attempts. We only averaged 3.2 yards per carry but the run sells the pass. When you balance it out, your oponents on their heels. WE WIN! Week 7 Now you would have thought that week 6 may have taught people something. Against mediocre teams you simply throw out a balanced attack, keep their D guessing and you have a pretty good shot to win. so what did he do? 17 rushes averaging 3.2 yards per carry. ( the exact same yards per carry we stuck with only a week earlier and won with when we stuck to it. 41 pass attempts. So he found a winning formula in week 6 and went right back to what he had lost with weeks 1-5!  There were a few more rushes in week 8 but just like ther oponent having a big lead makes you give up on the pass, bad weather should dictate a yound O run a little more than it passes. There's no spinning this game, it was ugly. Ugly for both teams so I'm not going to try to say that the rush won this game. Even though our only scoe came on a rushing play. It was just an ugly day and an ugly game. Now if you wish to sit here and put +'s on that, go ahead. But this HC took a team and put the load on a rookie QB out of the gate. A very young crop of WR's and a rookie QB took the brunt. That's not sound coaching. Once he found out what did work, he went right back to the losing style of game plan that he lost with 5 weeks in a row. Progress? Well all-righty then! 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
If I had to make a decision today, I'd stick with the coaching staff and heckerts staff.. and move forward..
But that's JMO
I do agree with you on the staff that Heckert has built.
But my question to you is pretty simple. Who has drafted and assembled this talent? Shurmer or Heckert?
Now when it comes to Shurmer let's play a game here.
1. What exactly does shurmer do as a HC on game day that shows you his strength as a HC?
2. Everyone speaks about continuity for the sake of continuity so let;s do this........
We should have kept Crennel for continuity?
Mangini for continuity?
Palmer for continuity?
Continuity only works when you have the right guy in that spot that will progress. There's only one hitch. Nobody can prove either way wheather he will or not.
So shouldn't we see game day HC decisions and half time adjustments that give us some indication he's the right guy?
And if your talent is getting so much better under Heckert, which I believe it has, why isn't Shurmer winning with it?
You don't just "keep guy X" for the sake of "keeping guy X". They have to show progress at what they are doing. If you look at my post above, I don't see progress there.
I see a guy that wants to take the talent he has and try to make it work like we're the Saints or the Packers. 40-50 passes a game and forget the run.
Potential only gets you so far, but when it comes to Shurmer I'd settle for some potential for now.....
Oh, and the whole "the team plays hard for him"? There's a new Sheriff in town named Jimmy. Seems everyone is working hard to keep their job. Accept the guy who found a winning formula and reverts back to what already lost him 5 in a row.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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In fairness, week 1 we ran the ball with players other than the QB 21 times for 74 yards. (Weeden ran twice for 25 yards) One of those runs was Benjamin on an end around that went for 35 yards. Trent had only 39 yards on 19 carries. That's hardly a call to arms for the running game.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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That's still averaging more than the 3.2 yards per carry we averaged against the Bengals in our victory when we stuck to it and rushed for 34 times.
The consistancy of mixing up your plays fairly evenly does wonders for a very young O in the passing game.
I don't really care who rushes the ball, as long as we even it out to give our passing game a better chance to sell PA and flourish.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Cal...
I think that he develops in the fact that we've been in EVERY game this season. And that at some point beyond the first quarter weve had a chance to win the game. Against the Giants we had a chance to really take control of the game before Weeders threw that INT...regardless of the play call, or whatever it was that submarined that play (I say throw it away rook) we couldve seized control of that game and at least kept it within striking distance (at worst). And that was the worst game of the season. Against Philly we were a bad ref call (on the fumble) AND a dropped INT in the end zone away from winning despite our offense's best effort. You can go on. Buffalo we had a chance to take the lead against a reeling team without Spiller but a turnover and a bad defensive possession and good night. Were almost there. You could point to EVERY game and look at 2-3 plays and say we had it were it not for such and such a play. Can you say that last year?
As for the guys playing for him and the pride and money etc...did they do it for Mangini in 2011 (ahem...peyton hillis...jerk, etc...), or Crennell late in his career here, or Palmer? Effort can submarine a season when you dont believe in the team philosophy;...that hasnt happened here yet...
For the gameplanning...while we havent scored a lot early...Can you name a game this year that we havent had a chance beyond halftime...every game this year ive thought we had a chance to win...at some point in the 2nd half...if that doesnt say we have goodish game plans...idk what does. We've made the right decisions in what to do to keep the game within winning distance...
Towards balance...while we have been capable of balance...what would you do with a rookie running back facing 8-9 in the box for 75% of the game? throw it with a gunslinging QB? I would...yea its not ideal, but Weeden is an unconscious gunslinger...When you have that...you chuck it. Especially when you support a good passing QB. You go get it...thats what he did. Now that hes thrown as often as he has...hes pulled defenses back and can run a balanced offense now...Whether or not he will...i cant say for sure...but if he does, you can bet that all the throwing he did early in the year contributed to it.
If youre Baltimore next week...do you really expect us to run the ball 35 times next week? Me either...But if we do, it may help us. IMO Shurmur spent 5-8 weeks showing that our offense is capable of chucking it (and evidenced by all the times Benjamin tried to get deep...and Weeders hasnt been able to make that work yet, and Gordon HAS gotten deep and it working) teams will adjust to it and defend our pass game more because its more explosive than TRich and the run game have shown to be...thatll open his running lanes (see Chargers D) to be successful. This is all projection, but it has the potential to be the truth, and this week has shown that projection to be true...if it continues against Balti this week...we may have it down.
As for the play calling improving...look at how much better we are on first down. In time...3rd and 4th and short will improve with experience...reminder that weve had VERY little experience in 3rd and 4th and short in the year Shurmurs been here...hes learning his guys.
What I see is that his coaching is adapting to the successability in his guys...hes been better which shows hes improving with his guys...
As for his being unfazed by criticism...I stand by a guy that just does what he does regardless of what anyone thinks...yea it could kill him or submarine his success...but you look at guys in the NFL that have done that and theyve had success...Parcells, Belichick, Shula etc...names that have played that same game...Rex Ryan has done it too...so theres negative ways to use that too...but, you have to look on the bright side in my opinion...If Holmy thought good of it, and the players have thought good of it...ill go with it.
Look at KC, NYJ and other teams...guys question their coaches all the time...Cam Newtons doin it now...Everyone in Cleveland says Shurmur knows best...I didnt play in the NFL...I believe the players when they say they believe him...Im in.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
But my question to you is pretty simple. Who has drafted and assembled this talent? Shurmer or Heckert?
Heckert and his team of scouts and pro personnel folks did. I have little doubt that Shumur and his coaches had some input. we know that Chilly had no input on Gordon. we'll probably never know, but given that he was in the building, I'd say that Shurmur was at least notified of the Josh Gordon pick. I'm sure Holmgren was also at least aware.
(side note: it's looking like that was one helluva pick)
So Heckert and his staff I think needs to remain.
Quote:
Now when it comes to Shurmer let's play a game here.
1. What exactly does shurmer do as a HC on game day that shows you his strength as a HC?
2. Everyone speaks about continuity for the sake of continuity so let;s do this........
No games needed. This is serious business.
1. What did Noll do on game day that showed his strength as a HC in 1969 and 70? the answer was, not a lot. But the similarities are interesting.. new GM comes in, (one of the rooney kids I might add), starts to pick well in the draft. Mean Joe Green is added, then others that make the parts all come together over a few years, then wow, Noll looked like a genuis.
Now, let me be clear, I'm not comparing Noll as the finished product he became, I'm talking about the flawed HC at the beginning of his career. That's who I'm comparing Shurmur too. The fact that things around them are kinda similar is also a fun comparison.
2. You don't hear me talk about continuity much.. while I believe it in, I, apparently like you, don't believe in it JUST for the sake of it.
It's gotta be the right guy.. RAC wasn't, Palmer might have been but we'll never know. Mangini was power mad. he couldn't delegate to save his sole and I think that doomed him from day one (that's a bit of hindsight there)
Holmgren, I know I'll get ripped for this, but Holmgren was a Rookie President, he made, as far as I'm concerned, one bad decision, keeping Mangini. Again, Hindsight. Lots of you said that back then, but I was like, hey wait, he got a team that was lousy and ended the season with 4 straight wins. Lots of us thought there was something there that could be built on.
But where holmgren blew it was, Mangini wasn't his kinda coach. He didn't run the D Holmgren wanted, he didn't run the O that Holmgren wanted and Heckert believed in Holmgrens system also, so, in the end, (and again this is a bit of hindsight) Keeping mangini put us a year behind.
Result: Probably the same, Lerner would still have sold the team, Holmgren would still have been gone, and who knows who we'd have hired as HC to replace Mangini.. we could have been a year ahead of where we are now, or be ready for another change at HC. Honestly, I don't know what would have happened. NOBODY does.
Which is why I think the most relevant comparison is the Steelers when they first hired Noll, then began building a team of talented guys for him to coach.
Here is Nolls first 4 years but looking at the first 28 games, Noll was .214
PIT 1969 1 13 0 .071 4th in NFL Central
PIT 1970 5 9 0 .357 3rd in AFC Central
PIT 1971 6 8 0 .429 2nd in AFC Central
PIT 1972 11 3 0 .786 1st in AFC Central
Now Shurmur through 24 games Winning percentage .250
CLE 2011 4 12 0 .250 4th in AFC North
CLE 2012 2 6 0 .143 4th in AFC North
(note: 14 game seasons for Noll, 16 game seasons for Shurmur so percentages could get skewed)
Point is, I lived in Western PA back then and I used to laugh when my dad would be yelling at the TV saying, Noll is an IDIOT. Noll would call a play and it didn't matter if it worked or not, my dad (a die hard steeler fan) would still call him an idiot for calling that play.
What I'm trying to say is that if you nit pick at every play, you can find something wrong with any coach. you have to look at the entire body of work. and thus far, in two years, Shurmur is ahead of Noll in winning percentage.
And, I think its safe to say, we seem to be moving in the right direction.
Let's go back to the beginning of the year,, half this team was 1st and 2nd year players.. anyone that expected them to just beat everyone was insane.
I think we are getting just what we should be seeing. A young team, learning how to play and learning how to win.
What's that old saying about learning how to win, you start by learning to win at home, then you learn to win on the road. two wins, both at home. for me, the plan is coming together.
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Week 1
We rushed only 22 times yet netted 4.5 yards per rush.
We passed 35 times with only 12 completions averaging only 3 yards per pass attempt.
Why would you give up the run averaging 4.5 yards per carry and burden a rookie QB with the load when the run is working so well.
I don't see a "+ anything there.
The run was working well? See, this is the problem when you go back in hindsight and just look at averages.... Weeden had a 25 yard scramble and Benjamin had a 35 yard end around.. Richardson had 19 carries for 39 yards.. barely 2 ypc... heck in the 2nd half he had 8 carries for 14 yards... and you want to stick with that? that's why you go away from the run which is netting you 4.5 ypc... because it really isn't. It's netting you 2 ypc unless you advocate running Weeden or maybe you think end arounds and reverses would continue to work... We were NOT pounding it down their throat on the ground like you seem to think we were.
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Week 2
We passed better against Cinci but still did not balance the attack when the run was working very well.
23 rushes averaging 5.7 rushes per carry.
26 for 37 on passes averaging 7.9 yards per pass play.
Week 2 in the first half we had 15 runs and 15 passes and we were down by 7... before we got the ball in the 2nd half we were down by 14.. Our next 3 drives were 8 passes and 6 runs and were again down by 7.... then down by 14 again.. first drive of the 4th quarter was 4 passes and 2 runs for a TD and we were down by 7 again... then with 2 minutes to go we got the ball down by 10 and threw 8 consecutive times... we never really did abandon the run until the final 2 minutes of the game...
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Week 3
Against B uffalo we rushed only 13 times and passed 43 times.
In the first half we had 9 rushes for 16 yards... and we were playing from 1 to 2 scores down all day...
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Week 4
Against Baltimore we rushed 17 times and passed 52 times.
20 of our last 21 plays in the 4th quarter were passes because we were down by 2 scores...
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Week 7
Now you would have thought that week 6 may have taught people something. Against mediocre teams you simply throw out a balanced attack, keep their D guessing and you have a pretty good shot to win. so what did he do?
17 rushes averaging 3.2 yards per carry. ( the exact same yards per carry we stuck with only a week earlier and won with when we stuck to it. 41 pass attempts.
So he found a winning formula in week 6 and went right back to what he had lost with weeks 1-5!
Again you are factoring a 13 yard scramble by Weeden into your rushing stats... with our RBs, we were 16 for 42 or a 2.6 ypc average...
These are our down and distances in the second half...
2nd and 11
3rd and 3
2nd and 9
2nd and 11
3rd and 11
1st and 15
2nd and 15
2nd and 10...
I'm not saying everything Shurmur has done is right.. I'm not saying he has it all figured out... I'm not even saying he might not panic just a little when he gets behind and throw the ball too much... but you are cherry picking stats like yards per carry, which aren't exactly representative of what was going on at the time... Shurmur has not abandoned the run nearly as quickly as you seem to think he has.... and the run hasn't been quite as effective as you seem to think it has...
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thanks DC. I had this post pegged to do a long write-up on and you saved me alot of time and typing 
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DC, I Dub thee, Mythbuster 
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I honestly admire your conviction, and honestly want you to be correct in your reasoning. I don't want to see another coaching change, unless it will make the team better. Maybe you are correct in your assessment that we are seeing a great team and coaching staff in the early throws of getting there. I'm just not there with you yet. I don't think Shurmur should have been hired in the first place, and I think he is still in way over his head.
As for being in every game, improved play, etc. That can all be attributed to better talent on the field, a better QB, a better running game, and the decent defensive play orchestrated by Jauron. At this point in the season, from what I have personally witnessed, I believe we would have a much better record had the games been game planned and this team been lead by a better HC. That is just my opinion as I see it right now. Only time will tell.
From here on out, I expect us to be in every game, because of the talent on the field, but don't think we'll actually win more than three because of the poor game planning and game day coaching. If that's the case, I believe we'll looking at a new HC because at least five of the next eight games are definitely winnable.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Yeah, well..... but, we abandoned the run!  We didn't run it 24 times a game!! If we had, we'd have won more.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I think that the reason that I have the optimism is that I just cant see how Shurmur is a finished product. While the whole lockout thing hurt the installation process, i think it also hurt his development as he didnt have that full regular offseason to improve himself as a coach. Didnt have that whole time to work with his guys to get where he wanted.
I see a pretty vanilla team still, and that he's giving the guys what they can handle.
I'm speculating of course...but i jsut think that he's improving along with all of his guys. Coaches arent finished products when they get their jobs. He's done a good job of moving up the ladder his entire time as a coach. Guys like Crennell didnt, Jauron did but it didnt work out, same for Chilly (though i dont think he's a finished product as a HC either...he hitched his wagon to coach killer Favre). Shurmur might not work out.
I just think that if we fired him, you'd see a guy that would get another crack at it and probably be successful, call it hunch more than anything. It just seems like the path he'd take. Like a less crazy Haley/McDaniels.
I think he'll get there. I have to believe it as a fan. I've seen improvements in him. and in the team. and in the players.
Perhaps we'd be better right now with a different head coach, but I feel like in the long term, we're better with who we have. I think that with a young team like this, a guy like Shurmur fits what we need. Theyre all in it together, and thats something a lot of teams dont have. Look at NYJ. Look at the Rams too. They have Fisher and its a different scene there. They started strong and are fading. I think we're going the other direction, started iffy and are working to get there. Thats what you want. Improvement, and when the coach improves, so does his team. Confidence grows and thats it. Fisher is as polished as he's gonna be really...Shurmur isnt. He isnt great right now, but we're close...and when he improves, so will we.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
Yeah, well..... but, we abandoned the run!
We didn't run it 24 times a game!! If we had, we'd have won more.
The only piece of information that I found interesting in looking up some of those stats.. is that in the one game Pit says we actually ran a balanced offense, was the game in which Trent had 15 carries and Hardesty had 14... so maybe the trick isn't to run as much as we pass, maybe it's to get more than 1 guy involved in running the ball... 
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
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Yeah, well..... but, we abandoned the run!
We didn't run it 24 times a game!! If we had, we'd have won more.
The only piece of information that I found interesting in looking up some of those stats.. is that in the one game Pit says we actually ran a balanced offense, was the game in which Trent had 15 carries and Hardesty had 14... so maybe the trick isn't to run as much as we pass, maybe it's to get more than 1 guy involved in running the ball...
Or, perhaps the trick is to put ourselves in position to be protecting a lead in the second half and trying to run the clock?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Yeah, well..... but, we abandoned the run!
We didn't run it 24 times a game!! If we had, we'd have won more.
The only piece of information that I found interesting in looking up some of those stats.. is that in the one game Pit says we actually ran a balanced offense, was the game in which Trent had 15 carries and Hardesty had 14... so maybe the trick isn't to run as much as we pass, maybe it's to get more than 1 guy involved in running the ball...
Or, perhaps the trick is to put ourselves in position to be protecting a lead in the second half and trying to run the clock?
Stop it.. that's just crazy talk.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Yeah, well..... but, we abandoned the run!
We didn't run it 24 times a game!! If we had, we'd have won more.
Soup? Is that really you????
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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when he improves, so will we.
He better do it soon. Like this week. lol...
From what you've seen so far, do you think Haslam will keep Shurmur on if we go say 5-11? If he buys into the sorts of things you're talking about, he not only should but will. What do you think will happen if Shurmur can't pull out significant wins the second half of the season?
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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You know, if we would just score more points than the other team, we might win a few of those games. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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when he improves, so will we.
He better do it soon. Like this week. lol...
From what you've seen so far, do you think Haslam will keep Shurmur on if we go say 5-11? If he buys into the sorts of things you're talking about, he not only should but will. What do you think will happen if Shurmur can't pull out significant wins the second half of the season?
I hope Haslam is looking at more than just the record. I honestly hope there isn't a magic number of wins in his head that Shurmur has to get to. I hope he's doing a lot more due diligence than that, talking to people, getting advice and opinions... Heck, get these guys like Gruden and Cris Carter and Mike Golic and some of these old football guys that stay real close to it and ask them what they think... but if it's a "7 wins or your out of here" mentality, well that's just stupid.
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if it's a "7 wins or your out of here" mentality, well that's just stupid.
I'm inclined to think that by this point in time Haslam has his mind made up, his future plans do not include Shurmur, and the only thing that could possibly save his job would be seven wins or better. After all, if Shurmur does somehow manage seven wins, it would be very difficult to fire him. However, I'm also inclined to think that it's a safe bet that won't happen. When it's all said and done I'm thinking Haslam is probably hiring a new HC at the end of the season. But that's just me.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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if it's a "7 wins or your out of here" mentality, well that's just stupid.
I'm inclined to think that by this point in time Haslam has his mind made up, his future plans do not include Shurmur, and the only thing that could possibly save his job would be seven wins or better. After all, if Shurmur does somehow manage seven wins, it would be very difficult to fire him. However, I'm also inclined to think that it's a safe bet that won't happen. When it's all said and done I'm thinking Haslam is probably hiring a new HC at the end of the season. But that's just me.
Part of me thinks that you just simply do not drop a billion dollars on something without already having a complete plan already in place with people lined up. I truly hope that this is not the case, because changing people solely for the sake of putting in "your" people without seeing if the current people can get you where you want to go would be an injustice to the franchise.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I'm inclined to think that by this point in time Haslam has his mind made up, his future plans do not include Shurmur
what has haslam said that would make you think that.. I'm not asking to be snide,, basically because I think that's true.. for me it's more of a gut feel. I don't have anything concrete to base my thinking on..
And it saddens me because in reality, I do think something special is beginning to happen here. Will Banner see that? Will Haslam see that? Can Heckert convince them?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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No matter how you spin it DC, we only averaged 3.2 yards per carry in week 6 when we beat the Bengals. Not a stellar running game by any stretch.
Wheather you are good at rushing the ball or not, continuing to balance your play calls keeps the oposing D's honest to the point they must cover the run. It helps sell PA and helps open up the passing game.
Why people keep trying to dispute basic football 101 fundamentals for a HC who has no grasp on such basics is simply ludicrous. Overannylizing it or trying to dispute something most everyone who has studied the game knows makes no sense accept for those looking to make excuses.
Honestly, in every game we have used the pass happy O we have lost. Every single one.
And in the game versus Indy, it would have meant a W. This pass happy BS with a bunch of rookies has certainly cost us one game and if it continues, it will probably cost us more.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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what has haslam said that would make you think that.
Not a thing, in fact, everything he's said would point to him retaining Shurmur for continuity sake. However, I saw the look on his face when Shurmur punted on 4th & 1. Shurmur was never a top tier candidate and was hired solely because if his nepotistic relationship with Holmgren. I don't think that carries much water with a guy like Haslam who is most likely very interested in things like accomplishments, qualifications and performance. No matter if you like Shurmur or not, want him to stay or not, he has gone 3-13 in his last 16 games. Like you, it's more of a gut feeling.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Why people keep trying to dispute basic football 101 fundamentals for a HC who has no grasp on such basics is simply ludicrous. Overannylizing it or trying to dispute something most everyone who has studied the game knows makes no sense accept for those looking to make excuses.
Ok then let me simplify it for you since I'm trying to spin it and use too many numbers and such..... Pat Shurmur played big time college football, then he spent 9 years coaching big time college football, then he spent 13 years coaching NFL football.... so for you to imply that any old arm chair remote control jockey like yourself has a better grasp of football fundamentals and a better understanding of how to build a game plan to win a football game at this level is beyond laughable.  See, I can't even laugh...
yebat' Putin
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I saw the look on his face when Shurmur punted on 4th & 1. Shurmur was never a top tier candidate and was hired solely because if his nepotistic relationship with Holmgren
Well, like I said, I think, as you do, that the decision is already made and he's gone. But two points, actually, Shurmur has a decent resume.. He did a very good job in Philly and he did a good job with Bradford in St. Louis. he was an up and comer.
And sure, I agree, being Fritz Shurmurs nephew probably got him on Holmgrens radar no doubt, but if Andy Reid had said, "Mikey,, don't hire him for a HC position, He's not ready" I think Mike would have passed.
As for what Haslam looked like when he didn't go for it on 4th and short, well, he sure as hell looked happy this past week when he did go for it in that position. And he certainly told the team after the game that they should listen to Shurmur about being Greedy (go check out the thread on that post game locker room speech by shurmur and haslam)..
For me, it's a gut feeling.. I got nothing to back it up...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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You have used Chuck Knoll which is one side of the coin. Is that possible? Yes. Probable? I'd say if you look at the odds, most certainly not. You seem to think things stand the same way they were in 1970? The fact is, they don't. You can't take 5 years to show promise and show prgress as an NFL HC. In this day and age, considering each NFL team is at least a billion dollar corperation, owners aren't willing to wait for results. And since the NFL is a corperation and winning equates to millions, if not hundreds of millions of dollars, why should they be expected to? That isn't how it was in 1970. I find it odd that people seem to realise that corperations are in business to make money and recieve publicity and success..... Yet when it comes to the Browns, they have a complete double standard about that. And as your own stats show, he won 1 game in his first year and 5 in his second year. That's a net gain of 4 wins. Terry Bradshaw was also drafted in 1970 so those five wins came with a rookie QB. He also finished 3rd in the divison in 1970. So are you willing to say that if Shurmer doesn't achieve those same goals he shouldn't be replaced? I would have to say since Knoll actually won 4 more games in his second season and with a rookie QB, and since you seem to think Knoll is " the most relevant comparison", would you agree that with an appropriate and full off-season compared to last year, that Shurmer shouldn't be held to the same standard and be expected to win four more games than last year? I'm just wondering? Because it was you who pointed out Knoll and compared him to Shurmer as a prime example. For Shurmer to do the same thing Knoll did? Since we won 3 games last year, he would have to end this season with seven wins. Or would you rather try and look deeper in the history books and dig up some other example first? 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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The fact is, they don't. You can't take 5 years to show promise and show prgress as an NFL HC
unless you are Gary Kubiak
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You have used Chuck Knoll which is one side of the coin.
Is that possible? Yes. Probable? I'd say if you look at the odds, most certainly not.
You seem to think things stand the same way they were in 1970?
The fact is, they don't. You can't take 5 years to show promise and show prgress as an NFL HC. In this day and age, considering each NFL team is at least a billion dollar corperation, owners aren't willing to wait for results. And since the NFL is a corperation and winning equates to millions, if not hundreds of millions of dollars, why should they be expected to?
That isn't how it was in 1970. I find it odd that people seem to realise that corperations are in business to make money and recieve publicity and success..... Yet when it comes to the Browns, they have a complete double standard about that.
And as your own stats show, he won 1 game in his first year and 5 in his second year. That's a net gain of 4 wins.
Terry Bradshaw was also drafted in 1970 so those five wins came with a rookie QB. He also finished 3rd in the divison in 1970.
So are you willing to say that if Shurmer doesn't achieve those same goals he shouldn't be replaced?
I would have to say since Knoll actually won 4 more games in his second season and with a rookie QB, and since you seem to think Knoll is " the most relevant comparison", would you agree that with an appropriate and full off-season compared to last year, that Shurmer shouldn't be held to the same standard and be expected to win four more games than last year?
I'm just wondering? Because it was you who pointed out Knoll and compared him to Shurmer as a prime example. For Shurmer to do the same thing Knoll did? Since we won 3 games last year, he would have to end this season with seven wins.
Or would you rather try and look deeper in the history books and dig up some other example first?
No, I'll stick with the Chuck NOLL example. And I'll do that because the only NFL ownership experience that Haslam has is with the Steelers. and I'm sure he saw the trophies and heard the stories and felt the pride..
You can pick my example apart if you like, I expected it. But it doesn't change the similarities. Young teams, young HC, mistakes abound, get better young players, coach them up, let them mature, Stay the course..
It's a plan that has worked over and over again with many teams, but to me, the Steelers and NOLL are the best examples of it and the closest to where we are at this point in time.
Yes the league has changed, but sound business strategy is sound business strategy no matter the year.. Doesn't mean you can't tweek it to fit time and place, but if basic principle is sound, it's sound.
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The fact is, they don't. You can't take 5 years to show promise and show prgress as an NFL HC
unless you are Gary Kubiak
Pit would have fired him after his 4th season when they went from 9-7 back to 6-10.. they would be in the 2nd year of their new rebuilding program right now instead of 6-1 and one the best teams in football. 
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Is that possible? Yes. Probable? I'd say if you look at the odds, most certainly not.
The odds of any coach coming to a very bad team and achieving success are very slim... under any circumstances you can imagine.. the vast majority fail... the question is, if given a couple more years, how many would have succeeded?
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You can't take 5 years to show promise and show prgress as an NFL HC.
Chuck Noll (without a K) went 11-3 in his 4th season....
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And as your own stats show, he won 1 game in his first year and 5 in his second year. That's a net gain of 4 wins.
Terry Bradshaw was also drafted in 1970 so those five wins came with a rookie QB. He also finished 3rd in the divison in 1970.
So are you willing to say that if Shurmer doesn't achieve those same goals he shouldn't be replaced?
He went from 1 win to 5 but got statistically worse in both offense and defense... schedule must have been soft.
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So are you willing to say that if Shurmer doesn't achieve those same goals he shouldn't be replaced?
Going from 1 win to 5 is easier than going from 3 to 7...
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I would have to say since Knoll actually won 4 more games in his second season and with a rookie QB,
His rookie QB threw for 1400 yards, 6 TDs and 24 INTs...
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I'm just wondering? Because it was you who pointed out Knoll and compared him to Shurmer as a prime example. For Shurmer to do the same thing Knoll did? Since we won 3 games last year, he would have to end this season with seven wins.
I think you are taking things just a smidgeon too literally...
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Or would you rather try and look deeper in the history books and dig up some other example first?
Thats the neat thing about the NFL, there have been so many seasons, so many coaches, so many players... that I can take pretty much any situation and show you where it worked... or I can show you where it didn't... it took Tom Landry 7 years to get over .500.... Jimmy Johnson went from 1-15 to 11-5 in 2 seasons coming out of college... Sean Payton went 10-6 in his first season then regressed back to 7 and 8 wins the next couple years before taking off in year 4.... Ditka took the Bears from horrible to great in a few years but failed to do anything close to that with the Saints, in fact they got worse.... Don Shula took over a team that had never had more than 6 wins and he won double digit games in each of his first 6 seasons.... Dan Reeves took over a Broncos team that had won 8-10 games for a number of years before he got there and in his second year (strike season) they went 2-7... he should have been fired I guess... then he went to the Falcons and couldn't come close to recreating the success he had in Denver...
Let's do this, you tell me what you want an example of and I'll go find it... Building a winning football team in the NFL is the sum of dozens of different variables, of which the coach is only 1.... an important one to be sure, but he can only control what he can control.
Hopefully this week he will run the ball 30 times.. then even if we lose by 20, you will like him a little more.
yebat' Putin
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