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Anyone that thinks we have the 7th best overall offensive line in the league is fooling themselves.
stats are fooling themselves.... oh wait stats and film don't lie
They don't?
According to your referenced non-lying stats, the Bears have a better line than the Niners, and that very dominant Niners line is ranked 29th in the league...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Anyone that thinks we have the 7th best overall offensive line in the league is fooling themselves.
stats are fooling themselves.... oh wait stats and film don't lie
They don't?
According to your referenced non-lying stats, the Bears have a better line than the Niners, and that very dominant Niners line is ranked 29th in the league...
they won't be rated that way after tonight.
Meh.
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The Niners have had a dominant line for two seasons now. To say that they've been the 29th ranked offensive line after a full nine games of the 2012 regular season is beyond ludicrous.
But no, they won't. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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The Niners have allowed 24 sacks on Smith, and a total of 7 on Kaepernick.
That's in a total of 31 sacks in 266 pass attempts.
The Browns have allowed their slower footed, rookie QB to be sacked only 16 times in 371 pass attempts. That's half the sacks in almost 100 more pass attempts.
Also, when you watch them play in the past 6 or 7 games, it is obvious that they have gelled. The Browns allowed 8 sacks in their first 3 games. They have allowed only 8 in the last 7.
That's impressive.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Yes, it is.
But passing the ball is only half of what they do, and it doesn't factor in all other kinds of things.
The Pats were famous for having 5 guys out in patterns. The Niners are famous for having as few as 1 guy out in the pattern. That makes a huge difference in terms of whether or not a QB is sacked.
Then there's the crap-lines that Peyton Manning played behind for several seasons which he made look good because of his quick release. You put Weeden behind those lines and he's on IR.
There is so much more to ranking offensive lines. Tonight's game between two teams with polar-opposite offensive lines states that quite clearly, in spite of the fact they are ranked 28th and 29th.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I think its safe to say that our OLine is pretty damn good when it comes to pass blocking, and right around average when it comes to run blocking.
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Methinks you're being generous.
On one hand, we average the exact same yards per carry as the Texans. That would make you think we're good.
On the other hand, we rank 27th in the league in rushing yards. That would make you think we're pathetic.
When we need to run the ball, can we run the ball? The Texans can, but we can't. That's where the stats don't tell the story...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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On one hand, we average the exact same yards per carry as the Texans. That would make you think we're good.
Perhaps, until you consider that 18 teams average more yards per carry than the Texans (and us).
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On the other hand, we rank 27th in the league in rushing yards. That would make you think we're pathetic.
Actually, it would make me think we need to run the ball more, more than anything. 25 teams average more carriers per game than we do.
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I think that this OL will stay as it is into next season. I think that Pinkston may have lost his job ... which sucks for him because of his injury .... but Greco has done quite well. (as I knew he would ... being a Boardman Spartan alum and all) Trent Richardson has been his own worst enemy at times this year. He has danced behind the line instead of exploding through holes. This OL has gotten better and better as the year has gone on, and I think that they are a solid unit already, and will only get better as they play together.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Anyone that thinks we have the 7th best overall offensive line in the league is fooling themselves.
stats are fooling themselves.... oh wait stats and film don't lie
They don't?
According to your referenced non-lying stats, the Bears have a better line than the Niners, and that very dominant Niners line is ranked 29th in the league...
As I've argued numerous times on here when you bring up the 9ers OL...they're major CRAP at pass blocking....you'll see it again in the POs when they're falling behind and are forced to pass. Iupati and Davis are poor pass blockers but very good run blockers, esp. Iupati...by your judgement that shouldn't make them much better than our Lauvao...since this is a passing league now, I'll take the pass blocking OL over the run blocking one ANY day....and I think those rankings reflect that....their QBs dropped back to pass less than 300 times this season and they already gave up 31 (!!) sacks....hello? I know what guys like you would write on here if our OL would give up a sack on every 9th pass attempt and all that while playing with a lead most of the time and the Ds pinned back to stop the run more....our OL allowed 16 sacks in almost 400 PAs
Toad, their OL isn't any better than ours it's just the complete opposite and I'd argue that our run blocking is better than their pass blocking
We DO have a top 10 OVERALL OL...we're easily Top 3 in pass blocking, maybe even the best and by now we're 20ish in run blocking (below AVG) and I'd weight it 60-40% in favor of passing since the league passes more than runs
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It's interesting with the Niners man...Because of their schemes, they do struggle when it comes to opening up the passing game, and I don't just mean the line. Smith really has become this weird oxymoron of being some uber-fantastic game-manager. They often only have two guys out in pattern and it feeds off of their run game. If you were to trade some of their run-blocking ability for an equal pass-blocking, I would argue they wouldn't be nearly as dangerous as they are now because everything they do feeds off of the run-game.
I think I would trade our line for theirs. We gotta have a run game or we aren't going anywhere. I know people say that the Rats and Steelers throw the ball like the rest of the league, but those offenses don't go unless they are running the ball. Same goes for us.
I know you used to beat on Mack and have had to come off of that as the season has worn on, but he's not a truly strong mauler. He's a shield-blocker. As great as Thomas is, I'd image we agree that, if he keeps this up, he's going to ride the coat-tails of his pass-blocking to the HOF. He was never a strong run-blocker. Wouldn't trade him for the world though.  Those two positions don't have to be bulldozers, though. That's where we need one of our three guards to make big strides, or we have to replace them.
I never saw Greco coming. Since he took over for Pinky he's been better, at least to my eye. However, none of the three are doing anything to really get much push. I know we're having fun going back and forth on Richardson just for the sake of sitting around the table throwing peanuts at each other  He's had his rookie moments and when you combine that with his injuries it's been a hard road to hoe for the kid, but there haven't been many holes out there. The secret culprit neither of us have talked about, though I'm certain we're both aware of it, is the fact we pretty much have one of the worst sets of TE's in the league. Yeah, Watson can catch some, but he's a flat-bad run-blocker. That's supposed to be the bread-and-butter of Alex Smith, but I'll got to my grave maintaining he is not that good at it. He's only playing FB because of how pathetic Marisuck is. Cameron...I've never seen anything which would give me hope that he's good in that regard. Going with a three TE-set doesn't do anything for us but put inferior players out there. We need help there as well, and it could be argued we gotta have some major help there quickly.
Did I mention Marisuck 
I know you'll throw your oatmeal at the screen when you see me talking about taking a Guard in the 1st, and I'm only half-joking when I say it's something I'd consider if it meant really shoring up the line. It's nice finally having a pass-blocking line that is good, but without the run component, we won't ever be a true playoff contender. I think it's a case of fans seeing we're better than we've been before and wanting to say it's good enough. I can't agree with that. There may not be that many great players which are also areas of need for us to take around the top-5, so trading down and taking a guard late in the 1st wouldn't hurt my feelings at all. God knows I don't like any of the QB's in this draft nearly as well as I liked Luck, RG3, and Tannehill, and I sure don't like them where we'll be picking. I'm for riding Weeden one more season and building the rest of the team.
We'll have a ton of cash to spend and high draft picks as well. We're off to a solid start on the line but need one really mean guard and mauling TE to help us.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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We fully agree on the TE and FB issue....Marecic has been a HUGE disappointment, but FB isn't the hardest of positions to fill...there are usually good ones in FA and late in the draft to be found
TE...well, that's a little tougher and we will have to probably find 2 new ones since I don't think we'll re-sign either Smith or Watson but that probably depends on the rest of the FA class...I DO know that the draft class is ugly at TE, so this looks like a position we'll punt into offseason 2014...at least I would do. Try to find a small stop gap upgrade in FA, draft a day 3 gamble and pray that Cameron improves more next season...at least that's what I'd consider best value as of now
We simply disagree on the OL...I'd NEVER trade our line for theirs. Philosophically I simply disagree that a strong run blocking OL is better than a strong pass blocking one....not when you pass more than run and the AVG gain passing is higher than running....it's simple math at work here.
But my biggest argument would be that a pass blocking OL is better suited to the do or die PO style...and that's what it's all about, you build a team to win it all...maybe a strong run blocking unit gets you the same or even better results in reg season to beat up convincingly on the crap teams...but once you face some tough teams, as you usually do no later than the POs, you need an OL that can pass protect if you happen to fall behind and give you a chance to win it....a D can shut down the run MUCH easier than a well working pass attack with multiple options
Btw, I never "had to come off of Mack"....I'm the 1st to be happy about him playing better as we needed him to, but he has been a notoriously slow starter to every season since being in the league and he hasn't been the elite C I expected when we took him with our 1st rounder in 2009...he's been an above AVG to good starting C and that's ok, but I don't think it was worth the investment....note: I'm far from saying he is/was a bust, just bad value when you try to BUILD a complete team
As to drafting Gs...lots of 1st round Gs busted lately....Watkins who EVERYBODY, me included, loved is so-so, Pittsburgh's DeCastro, who was touted the best G ever to walk on a football field looked like total crap before he got on IR (which actually happened BECAUSE he was crap, as he was showed into another Steelers OL owned by Kyle Williams of the Bills)...I just don't see the value...G may be the position where the AVG of draft position of the top 20 in the league might be the highest number around...it's just not worth it imho
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Anyone that thinks we have the 7th best overall offensive line in the league is fooling themselves.
pass blocking, I don't think there is a question that we do.
run blocking, well, there are some issues and I'd say we're below average.
it's really tough to have an OL that does both really, really well.
#gmstrong
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I think too many people are expecting too much out of Weeden, and I say that while remaining skeptical of his viability as a future starter
===========================================================
The Browns are right now as good a team as they have been in many years. They have key personnel on all units.
On defense they need a bookend end corner like Haden.
However, they are going no place fast till they solve the quarterback position.
I just do not see what I am looking for in Weeden. He just can not read what is going on around him fast enough. He is a beat slow. He is also not consistently accurate. And what stands out most is he breaks down under pressure. He lacks overall awareness.
A team has to believe that their quarterback will always keep them in the game. When they need him to lead them to a victory that he will get it done. Weeden does not bring that kind of confidence.
I see him hanging on as a backup QB someplace in a few years. The Browns don't have the time to wait on a 29 year old QB to develop. They need a guy who is on a fast track to be a true championship caliber quarterback.
Last night I watched Colin Kaepernick. I would love to get that guy. Although I seriously doubt that SF would part with him.
The Browns must find a quarterback that is capable of leading a team to a championship - period end of story. There is nothing more important than that.
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Kaepernick is a better QB than Weeden. and you don't need to see a full season of games to realize it. His release is quicker. He's way more accurate. I think he can breakdown whats in front of him when he's in the pocket faster than Weeden can.
and the best of all, Kaepernick based on his skill sets,can wreck a defense with his legs. If a play breaks down,Kaepernick can turn it into positive yardage.
you can run the pistol, naked bootlegs, qb draws out of the spread with Kaepernick.
Weeden really limits what you can run on offense
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Weeden really limits what you can run on offense
So does Peyton Manning (The slowest QB in the league, by far.)
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Kaepernick has had a year and a half under Harbaugh. Weeden has had a halft a year under Shurmur.
Advantage Kaepernick.
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how many Peyton Mannings come along in the NFL?
once in a lifetime
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Tom Brady also limits your offense.
Damn those slow QB's.
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point being over the last several years, we have seen young QBs come in
and play like poised veterans.
the other AFC North QBs came in their rookie years and led their teams to
the playoffs.
but in Cleveland because the past QB history has been garbage since 1999,the expectations are set low for the QB position.
how many years did Andy Dalton have under Jay Gruden?
none,he barely had 2 months cause of a lock out.
for the Browns to be a factor in the AFC North,Weeden has to play at the same level or better than Flacco,Dalton and Rothlisberger.
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how many Peyton Mannings come along in the NFL?
once in a lifetime
In my lifetime,, let's see
Tom Brady
John Elway
Eli Manning
Ben Rothlesburger
Bernie Kosar (you wanna talk slow LOL and he's in here cause I'm a homey)
Joe Montana
Terry Bradshaw
Otto Graham
Troy Aikman
Should I continue?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You're such a joke One freaking start...off of play action all day to boot....he got sacked already 6 times in 50 something drop backs, how did his legs and "quick release" (which is a joke right? Weeden's is pretty quick too) help him there?  Man you know your stuff ...but at least you're not gun shy with bold predictions, I'll give you that, lol
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I don't know why I (and others) indulge. If everyone just ignored him he would just leave. Trolls don't like when they aren't acknowledged.
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Quote:
Quote:
how many Peyton Mannings come along in the NFL?
once in a lifetime
In my lifetime,, let's see
Tom Brady
John Elway
Eli Manning
Ben Rothlesburger
Bernie Kosar (you wanna talk slow LOL and he's in here cause I'm a homey)
Joe Montana
Terry Bradshaw
Otto Graham
Troy Aikman
Should I continue?
To be fair, there's 2 Peyton Manning's on that list (Brady and Montana)
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pardon me if I haven't got involved in the Tom Heckert and Brandon Weeden lovefest around these parts.
I got my opinions and I'm gonna stick to them. until the Browns get a GM that can hit gold in the draft and get a QB that can take the team to the next level,you will always get last place team that hovers around 4-5 wins this year.
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Weeden is getting some awesome pass protection and still looks lost out there.
what did the PFF ramk the Browns o-line recently..9th or something like that?
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Banner has made it clear that Weeden is being closely evaluated.
I took the time today to watch a number of complete games of Tyler Wilson.
Watched the great game between Oklahoma and West Virginia. Landry Jones versus Gino Smith. Both played well. Jones had a spectacular game.
However, my opinion as of right now on the college class of QB's is: I like Wilson the best.
He is on a lousy team. They have a terrible OL and their receivers drop plenty of balls. But Wilson performs at a high level. Good live arm, decent size, good mobility, pocket awareness, and accuracy. He extends plays, throws well on the run and can get the ball out from many positions. I really like how he handles pressure. I have also listened to him in interviews. He handles himself very well appears to be a natural leader.
Personally I would have no problem taking him in the first round. He should be there for us given the reputation and experience of Barkley, the hype on Gino Smith.
Landry Jones is a pure pocket passer. I like him but still favor Wilson. I am wary of Gino Smith. He will make a great throw, then miss a guy who is wide open. He has potential but I believe he needs time to develop from the offense they run to the NFL game.
I see Wilson as the best QB prospect in the draft. I believe his game translates best to the NFL.
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So you draft Wilson in the top 5, and do what with Weeden?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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So you draft Wilson in the top 5, and do what with Weeden?
Keep him as 2nd string and move Colt to 3rd.
We'll have the most talented triumvirate of QB's in the NFL 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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On one hand, we average the exact same yards per carry as the Texans. That would make you think we're good.
On the other hand, we rank 27th in the league in rushing yards. That would make you think we're pathetic.
When we need to run the ball, can we run the ball? The Texans can, but we can't. That's where the stats don't tell the story...
Our 3rd down percentage is near the bottom of the league and the Texans is above average.. we don't covert 3rd downs, so we don't sustain drives, so we don't get as many chances to run the ball...
Plus, our offense has over 200 yards more penalties than the Texans do... another reason we can't sustain drives, so we don't get as many chances to run the ball...
yebat' Putin
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That's where the stats don't tell the story...
Since when do just a couple individual stats ever tell the story?
Seriously, never.
A stat is like looking at one single piece of a giant puzzle and thinking you can see the whole finished picture.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Really what difference does it make what they do with Weeden?
The issue on hand is quite simple. Forget about competing inside the division. Forget about challenging teams for Super Bowls with QB's named Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees, Rothlisberger, Flacco, Ryan, Luck.
Do you really believe you are going to beat any of those teams in the playoffs with Brandon Weeden?
You want 8-8, 9-7, 10-6 then good bye in the first round? The Browns are going nowhere until they find a quarterback who can lead them. A Championship caliber quarterback who the team believes will keep them in every game.
I find it astonishing that Holmgren with his background comes up with Weeden.
Harbaugh goes to SF resurrects Alex Smith. Goes after Manning. Moves up in the draft and takes Kaepernick in the second round.
Ozzie find Flacco out of Deleware State 18th overall. The Steelers get Ben from Miami University of Ohio 11th in the draft.
Holmgren brings in Jake Delhome and Senaca Wallace. Drafts McCoy in the third ( which is where he belonged). Passes on RG3 and then picks Weeden in the first round ( where he did not belong).
Harbaugh fixes the problem. Holmgren creates problems. Go figure.
Anybody can ID a player like Andrew Luck. Nobody can make him fall into your hands. You have to be able to see talent that maybe you are able to get.
The Browns have to find a real quarterback!!
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Passes on RG3
That is not true. I don't want to rehash this argument, but we bid for RGIII, the Redskins bid more, and they got the player. That is not passing. If the Redskins had offered less than us we would have RGIII right now.
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So what happens when you draft Wilson and he's not the guy?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Ozzie find Flacco out of Deleware State 18th overall.
I think Weeden compares ok to Flacco, just to pull one out of your pile... Flacco doesn't do anything great... he won a lot of games the first few years in the league riding a top 5 defense... he is now starting to come into his own and plays pretty well... I think Weeden can be that guy, unfortunately it took Flacco 4+ years to get there... which brings me back to the point of drafting a pseudo-project QB that is 29... you don't have time for him to take 4 years to get "pretty good"...
yebat' Putin
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Passes on RG3
That is not true. I don't want to rehash this argument, but we bid for RGIII, the Redskins bid more, and they got the player. That is not passing. If the Redskins had offered less than us we would have RGIII right now.
I think H&H thought the idea of 2 1sts in one year was better than anything Washington could of offered.
Even had we offered the 2nd originally, Washington's offer, to STL, would of looked better.
STL is assuming the later 1st they got from washington, will be higher than the 22nd they would of gotten from us.
I also think Fisher and Shanahan being buddies, "doesn't have nothing to do with it."
Last edited by OSGuy; 11/20/12 06:36 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Doesn't seem like there are any "the guys" in the 2013 draft the way it sits right now. Geno Smith, Matt Barkley, Tyler Wilson, Landry Jones, Zac Dysart, and E.J. Manuel have a lot left to be desired.
I would love to see what Brandon Weeden (or Colt McCoy) could do with a competent head coach and play caller.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,444
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,444 |
Quote:
Really what difference does it make what they do with Weeden?
The issue on hand is quite simple. Forget about competing inside the division. Forget about challenging teams for Super Bowls with QB's named Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees, Rothlisberger, Flacco, Ryan, Luck.
Do you really believe you are going to beat any of those teams in the playoffs with Brandon Weeden?
You want 8-8, 9-7, 10-6 then good bye in the first round? The Browns are going nowhere until they find a quarterback who can lead them. A Championship caliber quarterback who the team believes will keep them in every game.
I find it astonishing that Holmgren with his background comes up with Weeden.
Harbaugh goes to SF resurrects Alex Smith. Goes after Manning. Moves up in the draft and takes Kaepernick in the second round.
Ozzie find Flacco out of Deleware State 18th overall. The Steelers get Ben from Miami University of Ohio 11th in the draft.
I think that it is truly funny how many times you bring up Flacco in your diatribe, but fail to recognize how absolutely MEDIOCRE (at best) Flacco was as a rookie.
In fact, Weeden isn't very far off the mark at all from Flacco's rookie year, and Flacco had MANY more pieces in place (and a ridiculous defense to bail him out) as a rookie.
While Weeden has already equaled Flacco's INT number, he has also almost already equalled his TD number - in 6 fewer games, and as far as INT's go, that Eagle's game is more and more of an outlier every week.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
which brings me back to the point of drafting a pseudo-project QB that is 29... you don't have time for him to take 4 years to get "pretty good"...
I would argue that "pretty good" isn't an option.
He's 29 and we spent a 1st round pick on him. If he gets to Joe Flacco territory when he's 33 and doesn't become elite, we'll have made a mistake and the selection will have been a failure.
The gamble we took set teh stage to where only "great" will have made it worth-while because we'll have spent a 1st round pick on a guy who'll play 6 years and only at a "good" level for a few of those.
What's messed up to consider is that Weeden could be out of the league before Flacco based solely on age. Flacco is 27.
It's "great" or "bust" with Weeden.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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