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let me expand on Joe Haden. who would rather have...Tim Jennings/Charles Tillman or Joe Haden?
Haden to me is good,but he's not elite and he's not a ballhawk.
he has 8 INTs for his career. if I'm drafting a CB at #7,he better be a turnover machine.
Haden does a porous job of forcing fumbles.
he's not even the best CB in the division. How many elite WR's has he shutdown?
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If you're a really good team, you have 5-6 players that are difference makers.
The odds are you'll find those players in the top of the draft. Sometimes you get lucky and find them later. But typically they come from the top of the draft.
Haden is supposed to be a difference maker. He's not. It would be one thing if he was making plays and the other guys are screwing up. But he's the one giving up the plays. He's a primary reason why we continue to lose.
Yes, we've been bad for a long time and there is plenty of blame to go around ... coaching staffs included ... Patsy does no one on this team any favors at all. But guys like Haden are supposed to be the difference between winning and losing ... but he only contributes to the losing.
You know DJ likes to ride TRich for believing he's too talented and not getting his head on straight and understanding what it takes to succeed in the NFL ... the guy that description fits the most is Haden IMO ... I don't think he works on his craft at all ... I think he relies way too much on athleticism and believing he is better than he really is ... he even almost implied this at one point in the season. He does a huge disservice to this fanbase ... but that's par for the course for this team. Cleveland is the place where things go to rot.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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let me expand on Joe Haden.
How exactly did you expand on what Rishuz said ?
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Haden is supposed to be a difference maker. He's not. It would be one thing if he was making plays and the other guys are screwing up. But he's the one giving up the plays. He's a primary reason why we continue to lose.
Can't agree that he's a primary reason we lose.
He's head-and-shoulders above anything we've had at corner in years. He does have hands-of-stone but that isn't uncommon for a CB. When he came back it was obvious how much better he was than anyone else on the roster.
I don't believe he belongs in this thread, either at the top or the bottom.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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What kind of crazy world do you live in to actually think Haden is a problem
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Will someone, anyone, tell me one time in his career when he's made a game changing play?
Hard to make "game changing" plays when you're playing on defense for one of the single worst offenses in the league the past few years.
Take me to the nearest insane asylum because Haden is a HUGE reason why we continue to lose. I can't state this any more emphatically. He does not perform anywhere close to his draft level. If he were a second or third round guy, I'd be saying he's quite good. He wasn't a second or third round guy. He makes very few plays that impact the game.
I'm sorry to be the one to break this to you and some of the rest of the board. This is undoubtedly an unpopular opinion. I am extremely hard on Haden because it is extremely justified. He does not perform at his draft level. That is hurting the team in a huge way.
Can he get it turned around? Of course, he is talented, and I believe he has the capability to perform like a #7 overall pick. But until he does, he's hurting the team.
I'm sick and tired of it. I'm sick of the talk during the week then giving up the big play on Sunday. We will never turn the corner until guys start performing at and above their draft levels ... and of course, we get a real coach.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Haden is supposed to be a difference maker. He's not. It would be one thing if he was making plays and the other guys are screwing up. But he's the one giving up the plays. He's a primary reason why we continue to lose.
Here's a meaningless point....Maybe if the Offense scored more than 17 points a game...the Defense may not look so bad. But once again, speculation, right ?
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It doesn't help though that we never run on 3rd and short situations. I still do not understand what that is about. That is just plain stupid if you ask me. 
Find what you love and let it kill you.
-Charles Bukowski
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It doesn't help though that we never run on 3rd and short situations. I still do not understand what that is about. That is just plain stupid if you ask me.
Pretty simple explanation:
1) If it's an indictment against a player the coaches simply turn to a different player
2) If they never run it's an indictment against the offensive line and/or a belief that throwing the ball would yield better results
Since they simply don't run nearly enough with anyone on 3rd and short the answer lies in the second option.
Now has Richardson done some Barry Sanders stuff here? Yup, he has. Some of that is an adjustment to running in the NFL, some of that is injury, and some of that, especially early in the season, was the line not being able to open any holes. However, Richardson isn't the BIG reason we can't run in short-yardage situations. Most fans can see that our line simply isn't any good when it's time to push people out of the way.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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1) If it's an indictment against a player the coaches simply turn to a different player
Bull...we simply don't have a power RB on this team. In the Cincy game though, when Hardesty developed a "hot hand" Shurmur gave him the ball back to back on Cincy's 1yd line, something he never did with TRich.
And it's another apology love fest to say that there's no push from the OL...I saw at least 3 or 4 of hose "short" situations where he easily could have gotten the 1st down but opted to dance because he wasn't happy with 2-3yds....the ones that cost us the most were in the NYG game before the Weeden rollout-INT and the 2nd&1 dance-fumble in the BAL game before the funny Gordon penalty 3rd down. Those 2 plays alone cost us major momentum and directly led to passes on 3rd down
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2) If they never run it's an indictment against the offensive line and/or a belief that throwing the ball would yield better results
It's not that they don't run....Shurmur tried, but TRich simply didn't deliver in those situations. To even mention Peterson and TRich in the same sentence is funny too, because he was supposed to be that kind of back and if you take a back that high you have to deliver at Peterson-like level...Peterson picks up 5.8yd/carry behind a crappy run blocking OL as per Toad? Well played there, lol TRich's AVG is at 3.8yds....you read right, Peterson gets 2yds more on EVERY freaking carry. Think about that for a minute....he was supposed to be the same kind of talent but they're not even playing the same game, we're talking another stratosphere here
I could care less about what other teams do in those situations to excuse away the inability to pick up those 1st downs....we have a 1st round mauling C and a top 5 pick RB and we can't pick up 1yd when we need to? That's half the battle, right? and don't even try to spin this into a G-bashing fest...something's obviously fishy and the best you can say is "TRich isn't helping it"....and from a top pick, yeah, that's DISAPPOINTING. If I wanted a back that gets the yds the OL opens up for him I could have signed some dime a dozen FA or drafted a 5th round RB.
The reality though is that TRich is among the worst RBs in AVG, esp. considering the number of runs, and looking worse and much less consistent than fellow rooks Martin and Morris...and that's, again, DISAPPOINTING to me, that's why he made my list. He was supposed to be a day 1 difference maker and he simply isn't
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Haden is a HUGE reason why we continue to lose.
You say this, and then you say this:
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He does not perform anywhere close to his draft level. If he were a second or third round guy, I'd be saying he's quite good.
These are totally not the same thing. Saying he's not peforming at his draft level to you = him being a huge reason we lose? So, if he was a 2nd round pick, he suddenly wouldn't be a huge reason we lose, even though his quality of play would be exactly the same?
He's either a huge reason we lose or he isn't. His draft level has nothing to do with it.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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what I want both of you to do once is to put your nuts to the table and tell us what you would have done the moment IT HAPPENS and before anyone knows how they'll perform.
This I can get behind. I see a lot of folks on here who just throw out names, I like this guy, I like that guy, I'd like to get those guys... then later they claim to have wanted the ones who panned out... If we are drafting at #4, pick a guy.. you can't take 5 of the best players and say, "I hope we take one of this group" then pick the best one as your comparison point 3 years later.
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you're on record saying you would have entered the season with Colt 
I'm on record as saying that too and I'm not ready to say it wouldn't have been the right move. I'm not saying that Colt is better than Weeden but would we have 2 wins to this point with Colt? Probably.... Instead, we have a QB who will be 30 years old next season and is still on the front end of the learning curve of what it takes to play in the NFL and he will likely be starting a new system in his second year as he turns 30 so he will take a step back in his learning curve.... I just think people get so caught up in the fact that he can sling it better than Colt and the offense has been more exciting to watch to actually think about whether it was the right long term decision for this team... then of course there is the opportunity cost of players selected around that 22nd pick that we didn't take because we took Weeden.
I like Weeden, he's here now and I really hope he is given a chance and that he succeeds and is a very good QB for the Browns for a number of years but when you take all things into consideration, I don't think it's as cut and dried that it was a great decision.... and if people could get past the "He's better than anybody else we've had since our return," argument and look at it more objectively for what it takes to build a long term winner that contends for championships, there is a case to be made that it wasn't the right move...
yebat' Putin
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you're on record saying you would have entered the season with Colt
Yep, but I bet you have no idea why...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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you're on record saying you would have entered the season with Colt
Yep, but I bet you have no idea why...
Pat Shurmur HIMSELF on why he chose to throw the ball on 3rd and 1 instead of run:Quote:
BEREA— The Browns continued their problems in short yardage situations. Twice, the Browns didn’t convert on third-and-one early in the game. On the first series, after Richardson ran for nine yards to set up third-and-one, Shurmur called a pass that fell incomplete to FB Alex Smith.
Why not run Richardson after his nine-yard run?
“You ought to be able to run it in short yardage,” Shurmur said. “All I would say is they had it covered.
“All we need to do is execute,” he said. “The next time you get a third-and-one, you can run it because the defense might be looser.”
Cut and dry, black and white. He chose to throw based on numbers. Not an indictment against Richardson.
A different opinion from the Examiner.com: Quote:
3) Short-yardage shenanigans: Many of the Browns most memorable plays this season have come on third-and-1 or fourth-and-1. These are not good, soft-lit memories as sung by Barbra Streisand, but the equivalent of a particularly painful wart extraction. The Browns' short yardage woes have become one of the biggest stories of the year, with the team converting only 8 of 18 chances on third-and-1.
Part of it has been play selection - Shurmur is fond of calling passes in short yardage - and part has been the surprising ineffectiveness of Richardson. The Browns' first overall pick is just 2-of-7 on third-and-1 tries. The second half of the season should see a further jelling of the offensive line, which will get the offense a much-needed push up front and improve these woeful numbers.
Hmmm...Part 1 says it's the coaching, part 2 says it's the line.
The evidence continues to mount against the coaches and the offensive line, doesn't it.
Dawgsbynature: Quote:
The outstanding issues are on third downs and in the red zone. Cleveland has regressed from the 2011 season in both regards, and perhaps no game showed that better than the loss to the Ravens a week ago when they had to settle for five field goals.
If/when Pat Shurmur gets fired, I wonder if he'll have nightmare of 3rd-and-1. The Browns haven't been able to convert it at a very high rate, and the playcalling in those situations has come under heavy scrutiny. Let's look at how the Browns have handled 3rd-and-1 and 3rd-and-2 situations in terms of pass-run distribution this season, and then compare it to other teams in the AFC North.
3rd-and-1 3rd-and-2 Overall 3rd Down
Run Pass Run Pass Rank Percent
Baltimore 83.33% 16.67% 36.36% 63.64% 22nd 35.42%
Cincinnati 76.19% 23.81% 40.00% 60.00% 30th 29.41%
Cleveland 50.00% 50.00% 9.09% 90.91% 27th 31.50%
Pittsburgh 69.23% 30.77% 37.50% 62.50% 1st 51.28%
The Browns have not called enough running plays on third-and-short. I do have an appreciation for breaking a trend, and Cleveland has actually missed some opportunities with dropped passes, penalties, bad throws, etc. However, the fact remains that the Browns drafted a guy at No. 3 overall, and they need to have confidence that he can move the chains in these situations. One of Richardson's struggles has been the fact that he hasn't converted these opportunities, but that's up to the coaching staff to get things figured out then, hopefully during the bye week.
Another indictment against the play-calling.
You getting it yet? 
Oh, wait, it doesn't matter what other teams do, but more on that in a moment...
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To even mention Peterson and TRich in the same sentence is funny too, because he was supposed to be that kind of back and if you take a back that high you have to deliver at Peterson-like level...Peterson picks up 5.8yd/carry behind a crappy run blocking OL as per Toad?
And yet there are the cold hard facts stating the Vikings are the only team worse than the Browns in getting a 1st down in 3rd and 1 situations. 
Some offensive lines can open holes in space but suck in short-yardage. Ours happens to be rather crappy at opening holes no matter where they are on the field.
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I could care less about what other teams do in those situations to excuse away the inability to pick up those 1st downs...
Sure, because you can't excuse the cold hard facts away so it's best to ignore them and try to dismiss them.
I'll keep that quote in mind when you elect to use what other teams do as examples of what we're not doing...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Pat Shurmur on why he chose to throw the ball on 3rd and 1 instead of run:
BEREA— The Browns continued their problems in short yardage situations. Twice, the Browns didn’t convert on third-and-one early in the game. On the first series, after Richardson ran for nine yards to set up third-and-one, Shurmur called a pass that fell incomplete to FB Alex Smith.
Why not run Richardson after his nine-yard run?
“You ought to be able to run it in short yardage,” Shurmur said. “All I would say is they had it covered.
“All we need to do is execute,” he said. “The next time you get a third-and-one, you can run it because the defense might be looser.”
Cut and dry, black and white. He chose to throw based on numbers. Not an indictment against Richardson.
Look, I'm not disagreeing with you... but on 3rd and 1 you should be able to pick up a yard even if you have to with your short yardage package and tell them which side you plan to run to... it's 1 yard.
The other part I disagree with is this... Richardson isn't even on the field in a lot of these situations which pretty much tips your hand to the defense and takes running the ball off the table allowing them play pass almost exclusively....
And I'm not sure I buy his argument because from what I've seen, Richardson comes off the field almost immediately in those situations.. well before Pat knows what defense he is going to face he has already made the decision to throw...
So I'm not buying that completely.
yebat' Putin
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My thought is...
If you take a RB that high in the draft he should be able to get you 1 yard on pretty much any play.
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Look, I'm not disagreeing with you... but on 3rd and 1 you should be able to pick up a yard even if you have to with your short yardage package and tell them which side you plan to run to... it's 1 yard.
I couldn't agree more. Hell, the Pats have an answer for this, which is always that damned Tom Brady QB sneak. I don't know how many times we've done that with Weeden, but I can tell you it isn't enough.
The question really isn't whether or not we should be able to get a 1st down with 1 yard to go, it's why it isn't happening.
Based on what I'm quoting, the fingers are pointing not at Richardson, but at the line and the coaches, and the watching the games back that up.
It's also telling, IMHO, not that Richardson leads the team in rushing, but that he leads the team in receiving. He is our best offensive weapon, in spite of the fact he's missed serious time.
No 'back with his kind of talent averages 3.8 yards per carry unless the line just isn't very good at doing it's job.
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Arps:
My thought is...
If you take a RB that high in the draft he should be able to get you 1 yard on pretty much any play.
Again, I agree. But again, I would point you to the Vikings. With the MVP of the league rushing the ball to a 5.8 YPC average, you'd expect them to be able to get 1 yard as well.
Yet the Vikings are the only team worse than us in the league at accomplishing that. So it must be Adrian Peterson's fault, right? 
No. It's the line or the play-calling, or both.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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If on 3rd and 1 you line up and try to run it up the gut and fail you can blame the line, or the RB. If you throw an incomplete pass you have to push the blame in a different direction.
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Some offensive lines can open holes in space but suck in short-yardage. Ours happens to be rather crappy at opening holes no matter where they are on the field
This is what happens when you back stuff with ridic arguments to begin with...it gets even more ridiculous the deeper you get...so you're going to tell me that Peterson is gaining 2yds more on EVERY run because, attention, drum roll etc : their OL can run block 3yds past the LOS but not at the LOS?
Are you freaking serious?
You came up with the this useless stat (yes, it's useless because it doesn't include game situations...I think the Vikings and some of the other teams the stat brings up won and led more games than us, so how many of those 3rd and short situations were LATE in the game with them winning and the D knowing they'd run the clock...see?) to show that even good backs on other teams can't get 1st downs because their OL sucks....then, when I come back with 2yds more per carry it's not because the other back is CLEARLY superior but because their OL magically turned from crappy short run block OL to incredigood, super-uber run blocking OL in space
Priceless
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Hmmm...Part 1 says it's the coaching, part 2 says it's the line.
The evidence continues to mount against the coaches and the offensive line, doesn't it.
Umm, no "the evidence" from some columnist from the examiner.com isn't exactly convincing me to begin with, but let's play...part 2 also has "and part has been the surprising ineffectiveness of Richardson", which you conveniently ommitted and came to the conclusion of "it's either the OL or coaching" but not the 3.8ypc RB you pimped so hard during the draft process
Look, we both know and agree that TRich is a major talent....we both know that better days will be ahead for him, I'm not saying he was a bad pick or is/will be a bust...no, he will be fine...I'm just disappointed about his lack of understanding of game situations....it is what it is....no need to start an apology lovefest when he's just not getting done close to what most expected when he was drafted
but I'm sure you will pimp yourself hard the day TRich gets voted to the AllPro team...you knew it, as did any other football fan though
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TOAD (sorry Arps, this was meant for TOAD):
I'm a big Richardson guy. I think he will eventually be a top 5 guy in the league.
But DJ is right. All it means is that our stud player isn't perfect and has things to work on. Even stud players have weaknesses.
This is so cut and dried I don't know why you would even bother to argue it. Richardson is failing himself and the team ... and especially the OL ... on third and short. I'm not ready to agree with DJ on the reason ... i.e., he's implying TRich is a glory hound ... but he is weak on third and short. Hell, JT threw him under the bus if you read between the lines.
Doesn't mean TRich is a bad player and won't be a great player for a long time to come. But he needs to take his head out of his arse and understand situational football and quit dancing on 3rd and 1. Really that simple.
He's getting outshined by Martin and Morris and that to me is quite disappointing.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Take this for what it's worth but I'll just throw some other stats out there...
Richardson has 94 rushes on grass and 58 on turf, his average on turf is 3/4 of a yard better... AP has 17 rushes on grass and 148 on turf, his average on turf is 1.3 yards better.
Richardson has 62 rushes when we are tied or ahead and 90 when we are behind.. AP has 142 rushes when tied or ahead and 53 when behind.
Richardsons long run is for 32 yards.. AP has runs of 61, 64, and 74... All of those runs have come in the last 3 games, this has improved his ypc by over a yard.. before that it was 4.8... so he's not gaining 2 more yards on every carry as you suggest, his average is, in large part, built on the occasional long run..
yebat' Putin
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let me expand on Joe Haden. who would rather have...Tim Jennings/Charles Tillman or Joe Haden?
Haden to me is good,but he's not elite and he's not a ballhawk.
he has 8 INTs for his career. if I'm drafting a CB at #7,he better be a turnover machine.
Haden does a porous job of forcing fumbles.
he's not even the best CB in the division. How many elite WR's has he shutdown?
How many people really knew who Tim Jennings was before this year? Jennings has been a decent CB in his career but happens to be having a helluva season. Tillman has been a solid corner throughout his career.
part of the reason these guys look so good this year is due to the quality of the defence as a whole.
And the best corners will ultimately have low INTs because QBs won't throw the ball because the coverage is too good.
I've started noticing that you just pimp whoever happens to have the best stats of the day. You, sir, are the football fan equivalent of Gangam Style....one hit wonder, flavour of the month.
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Occasional long run? That's what TRich does and why he dances all the time...if he gets a 60+ yarder in 3 consecutive games, that's a big play in every game. Take away TRich's long gains and he's probably a 3.0yd back, what's the point?
and even 1yd more....that's still a world of difference when comparing RBs. 3.8 is below AVG to bad, 4.8 is elite
And he has to produce at elite level at soem point to justify the pick(s)....if he's not better than Martin, then why did we spend a much higher pick AND some valuable mid rounders on top? Since you can find AVG production at RB in the mid to late rounds and even UDFA, a top 5 pick at RB BY DEFAULT has to produce at elite level...from day 1 that is, as the transition from College to NFL is the easiest. That's why I considered the TRich pick BAD value....I clearly stated that the injury risk (and history in his case) and position value were my 2 main reasons...and we're already getting to see what I was talking about
First half of year one has been disappointing...that's all I'm saying...if he lights it up from here on out, nobody will care about his inconsistent career start, but he's got to produce
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Quote:
let me expand on Joe Haden. who would rather have...Tim Jennings/Charles Tillman or Joe Haden?
Haden to me is good,but he's not elite and he's not a ballhawk.
he has 8 INTs for his career. if I'm drafting a CB at #7,he better be a turnover machine.
Haden does a porous job of forcing fumbles.
he's not even the best CB in the division. How many elite WR's has he shutdown?
Do you think about things before you post to complain about players we don't have, or do you just pick a Browns player to harp on, then Google for names that you recognize and cherry-pick based upon stats?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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who would rather have...Tim Jennings/Charles Tillman or Joe Haden?
The Bears have 19 interceptions, that is really a large number... This same defense, same corners and the team had 20 all last year... Jennings averages less than 2 per year in his 8 or 9 years in the league and Tillman averages about 4.. Haden had 6 as a rookie and is on pace to have 4 or more this year.....
Jennings and Tillman are just having one of those years that defies all logic based on their own historical information and it makes for a very poor comparison..
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
it makes for a very poor comparison..
AKA, Every comparison Kendall Storm ever makes..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
it makes for a very poor comparison..
AKA, Every comparison Kendall Storm ever makes..
Jennings had 7 interceptions in 6 seasons and has 8 in 9 games this year.... He is on pace to have 14+... 14 is the NFL record...
yebat' Putin
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Kendall Storm is quietly making a run at THROW LONG for most bat poo crazy poster.
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Quote:
Kendall Storm is quietly making a run at THROW LONG for most bat poo crazy poster.
TL's been quiet lately.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
Kendall Storm is quietly making a run at THROW LONG for most bat poo crazy poster.
TL's been quiet lately.
But every post he makes is loud enough to make up for it.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I'm ask all you of question. Do the Browns have anyone on their team that is having a great year statstically?
do the Browns have anyone on their team in the top 10 of anything?
right now Josh Gordon is the only I can think of with his YPC.
but the as it stands, the Browns are gonna end the 2012 season minus a 1,000 YD WR, a team sack leader that is under 8.
Richardson might get 1,000 YDS,but that stat for a RB doesn't hold as much
relevance as it used to.
and I look around the NFL and I see these FA's making significant contributions
to their teams.
Donnie Avery, Jacoby Jones for example. You guys say I cherry pick "stats"
guess what, in order for the Browns to climb out of the cellar, they need to
hit home runs in the draft and acquire some playmakers through free agency.
you guys know why the Browns are 2-7 headed to 2-8 and have a winning %
of .300 under?
cause they fail to hit the bulls eye in the draft and when it comes to free agency
they acquire basically garbage.
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Legend
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A question, what is your strategy on starting a new paragraph?
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I don't know,typing school.
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Let's see about Gordon .....
He has 19 catches for 417 yards, 21.9 per catch, 4 TDs, and 16 first downs.
Justin Blackmon has 26 catches for 150 yards, 9.6 yards per catch, 1 TD, and 17 first downs. He was the 5th pick in the first round.
Michael Floyd has 18 catches for 207 yards, 11.5 yards per catch, 1 TD, and 12 first downs. He was the 13th pick in the 1st round.
Kendall Wright has 43 catches for 390 yards, 9.1 yards per catch, 4 TD, and 28 1st downs. he was the 20th pick in the 1st round.
AJ Jenkins has no stats. He was drafted 30th overall by the 49'ers.
Gordon was a supplemental 2nd round pick.
I think I'll stick with Gordon.
Your "top 10" criteria seems to indicate that you expect rookies to be in the top 10 in stats ..... and certain positions, like QB, and WR rarely are. A rookie RT won't accumulate stats either. Now a RB can, and should be expected to accumulate solid stats even as a rookie ..... but that's one player out of the bunch.
This team has a rookie QB that impacts all of the rest of the offensive positions. If he has a "rookie game", the rest of the players will suffer. Ditto if the other rookies have "rookie games", he will suffer.
This team is taking some hard knocks because of the youth they are playing. We lost Taylor coming into the season. That hurt the rest of the DL. Then we also lost Rubin. We lost 2 starting LBs. We had our best CB suspended for 4 games. man .... I don't know what you expected. I expect flashes of talent from young players, and I have seen them. I do not expect perfect consistency out of rookies and 1st year players. I also do not want to put below average, backup quality players on the field ahead of the youngsters .... because I hope that the young players will develop. Jacoby Jones. Bleh. He's got 2 great WR around him, and a great running attack that creates problems for defenses ..... and he's done OK .... but he's hardly been a superstar. he's been a decent backup on great teams. He would not be a game-changer for us.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm not even saying rookies. I'm talking about any of the 22 starters and special teamers.
how many players so far do you think are having some very productive and All-Pro type season?
Dawson
Mack
Ward?
rookies
Gordon
Winn
Hughes.
I think inconsistancy has hurt this team this year. I see 2nd year players not progressing. Cameron,Little,Marecic,Hagg.
the sooner they can get rid of bums like Cameron,Hagg and Marecic the better this team will be. You can't win with those bums.
The pass blocking as been suburb. The run blocking has been less than that.
I still don't see a identity on defense.
The front 4 has been porous in getting to the QB. Teams as usual are running at will on the Browns.
Nobody on defense is stepping up and providing a key stop on 3rd down.
you say Jacoby Jones has 2 great WR's around him.
well how come the Browns can't find a "great WR"
you say he has a great running attack...well wasn't that why TRich was drafted?
to provide a great running attack?
I just see a team that is really lacking playmakers on both sides of the football.
Gordon and TRich are a start. Winn looks like a baller.
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How many rookies and 2nd year players do we have starting? (and/or playing significant minutes)
Off the top of my head I can come up with:
QB: Weeden
RB: Richardson
FB: Marecic
TE: Cameron
RT: Schwartz
WR: Little
WR: Gordon
WR: Norwood
WR: Cooper
WR: Benjamin
DT Winn
DT: Hughes
DT: Taylor (Just off IR)
DT Kitchen
LB: JMJ
LB: Robertson
S: Hagg (until he was benched)
CB: Skrine
We also have rookies Bademosi, Carder, and Fort playing on special teams.
That's a lot of youth.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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its a boatload. and yes I realize there are growing pains that come with being so young. Rookiesake time to develop. I understand the youth movement. You are building for the future. I get it.
the issue I see I have is that the coming into 2012 or 2011 for that matter,the Browns were not trying to win games.
you can build for the future and at the same time try to win in the present.
The latter was never a objective of the Holmgen Heckert regime.
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Here's the thing with that many rookies:
Rookies make mistakes. A rookie receiver will run a route incorrectly probably 15% of the time. We have 3 rookies WRs, and 2 2nd year guys.
A very young TE will occasionally make a mistake lining up ..... or missing a block ..... or running a route wrong ..... and we have a 2nd year, 1st year really playing TE.
We have a rookie QB, who is bound to get confused by new schemes, blitzes, and coverages.
We have a rookie RB.
We have a rookie RT, and other young guys playing on the OL.
We have youth galore on the DL. We have a rookie and a 2nd year, inexperienced guy getting major playing time at OLB.
We have a 2nd year guy getting major playing time at CB.
We had a 2nd year guy trying to play FB.
All it takes is for one of those guys making a mistake on any given play to blow up a play for us. Rookies, and even 2nd year players, are more likely to make this kinds of mistakes. We have this type of young players everywhere.
If a receiver runs the wrong route and brings coverage with him into an area that was supposed to be cleared, it creates problems. Ditto for a TE. If a TE misses a block it creates a problem. If the OL isn't perfect on any given play then there is pressure on the QB, or a running play gets blown up.
If a DL gets out of his responsibility, the defense gets gashed. If the LB don't properly set the edge, then the RB gets outside for a bigger gain. We have 2 rookies playing major time outside. (I consider Robertson to be a rookie, because he has only been a practice squad guy)
Football is a team sport. If any one player makes a mistake on any given play, it can blow up the whole play. We have lots of rookies and 2nd year guys on both sides of the ball.
Now Heckert could have gobe out and bought B level talent for A+ pricing ..... but would that be to our advantage? Jacoby Jones, who you bring up frequently, was a decent, though unspectacular receiver in Houston with a great receiver opposite him to draw attention, (and double coverage) and with a great QB throwing to him. Would be somehow be better here without those advantages? I doubt it.
I think that Weeden will continue to improve, but he's not all there yet. I also expect that the rest of our youngsters will continue to improve as the year progresses. My major problem with the coaching staff is that they haven't properly prepared the players in specific situations .... such as teaching guys not to jump when the opposing QB is trying to get them to do so.
We have improved in scoring TDs from last year. Last year we scored 20 TDs total on the year. This year we have scored 15 in 9 games. It's not perfect, but it is significant improvement, especially given the youth that abounds. We are currently 27th in rushing defense. Last year we were almost at the bottom of the league ..... 30th or 31st. We have improved in rushing TDs. We have improved in passing big plays of 20+ yards. We have improvement in fits and starts ....... and that's to be expected. It's frustrating and irritating ...... but it has to be expected to a point.
I would also add this about the regime and their plans .......
They had every reason to expect that they would have a 5 year plan, and the ability to see it through. Lerner was the owner .... Holmgren was the President ..... and Heckert and Shurmur were set at GM and HC.
Then things changed.
However, they had every reason to expect that they would have 5 years to get this team on solid ground, and turn it into a perpetual playoff contender. They would do this by going very young, and building from the ground up. They did this last year and in this pas draft.
Then the sale of the team came to light. Talk about shooting a man's horse out from under him. Now it was "everyone is under evaluation".
That changed plans and priorities when it was too late to change much of anything.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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