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I had to look, Madden has him rated as the 20th best Left tackle with a rating of 88 out of a possible 99.
MADDEN,,,YOU WENT TO MADDEN to see how our LT is rated...
It's a FREAKIN GAME,,,, A TOY.. 
Please tell me you were just trying to toy with me,, just having fun,.,. Please don't try to convince me you are serious about this...PLEASE!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Do you disagree with the rankings, Because the madden video game isnt real life,,,, but the Madden video game crew does have a paid position evaluating players. Its their real job unlike some of us. Not to say they cant miss on a player. But with 10 years of experience or more, a real budget to do so, and full access to the NFL I would say they probably do a better job of ranking players than anyone on this board. Especially when your talking about leaguwide in general, there may be people on this board that have spent more time evaluating a Browns player,,, but nationally no one on this board can compete with that budget or expertise.
Madden also has the benefit of 4 or so updates a year to correct missteps.
For example Winslow started the year around 82 or so, just a little higher than Heiden at 79. At this point he is a 92 because he showed it on the field.
For players that we can see and can be evaluated I will take their rankings anyday. Where they miss of course is on players who dont see the field, but thats pretty common in general really.
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Heh... heh... Well, after several years of seeing what passes as "knowledge," "fact" and "analysis" around here, looking at Madden doesn't seem all THAT dumb. 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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I had to look, Madden has him rated as the 20th best Left tackle with a rating of 88 out of a possible 99.
MADDEN,,,YOU WENT TO MADDEN to see how our LT is rated...
It's a FREAKIN GAME,,,, A TOY..
Please tell me you were just trying to toy with me,, just having fun,.,. Please don't try to convince me you are serious about this...PLEASE!
Serious as to how? No way I am saying that is absolute in stone correct. But read my reply to Pit as to why I would say its a more accurate comparison than anyone on here could make. So how about you, take time to read them and tell me what you see is glaringly wrong there. I bet it would be real similair to a scouts or coaches ranking of players if such a comparison were possible.
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Here in lies your problem.........................For Shafers ENTIRE career,accept for last year,he played LT for a left handed QB. Basicly RT. Did they account for that discrepancy? I think not.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I'll tell you right now that Kevin Shaffer being only one point below Marcus McNeill is a glaring load of defication.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I think he should be a Right tackle as well, but I don't think Shaffer is as bad as Andruzzi made him look.
Well,I'm not ready to debate you on the topic as I dont really "completly" disagree with you.
But what do you base that opinion on? I mean,Shaffer never protected an NFL's QB's blind side before he came here. So what is it that makes you feel this way?
Isn't it possible that Druzzi was held back because of Shaffers poor performance? Not saying that is so,but I keep hearing that "Shaffer wil;l be better with Steinbach beside him". But how do we know it wasn't Druzzi helping Shaffer out that made Druzzi look so bad?
No, I think he should be a right tackle, he didn't earn his pay last year, no one did on our o-line.. Having said that, I think the guard play was alot worse than our tackle play, and that had an influence on Shaffer (also he had bad knees)
And don't mistake me for an AD guy, I want Joe Thomas in the draft, I want Shaffer at right tackle, I want Blalock at right guard...
I know how bad our o-line is and I am with you guys on the fact that we need to improve our line.
![[Linked Image from i4.photobucket.com]](http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y132/Defiantmac/nickk2.jpg) PRO-BOWLER!
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Do you disagree with the rankings, Because the madden video game isnt real life,,,, but the Madden video game crew does have a paid position evaluating players.
They're horrible at it, how do you explain Winslow dropping 7 out of 8 passes, and Bodden being rated lower than about 50% of the league (Yeah theyre my 2 favorite players but they are alot better than that)
There are other examples but Madden sucks so I wont go into it.
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Jesus I just looked out of curiosity, Im not saying we should use it as a guide to Nirvana. What do you think of the rankings there source aside? Personally I always thought this assumption about Shaeffer and being any thing other than a mediocre LT was  . I mean didnt we all learn our lesson with Butch. He switched em around, put guys here put guys there, you know... if a man cant play his natural Position well,,why do you guys expect him to do a new position well?
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I'll tell you right now that Kevin Shaffer being only one point below Marcus McNeill is a glaring load of defication.
I can tell you the part your not seeing in the overall number is a couple of things. For one the overall number is derived from a multitude of smaller numbers,,,, and rookies always by default get a very low awareness rating wich keeps their overall numbers down. I bet if you went and looked at a small part of the individual ratings, like runblock,,,, pass block and strenght that he would be ahead of Schaeffer by a few points. Not saying that its perfect by anymeans.
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Do you disagree with the rankings, Because the madden video game isnt real life,,,, but the Madden video game crew does have a paid position evaluating players.
They're horrible at it, how do you explain Winslow dropping 7 out of 8 passes, and Bodden being rated lower than about 50% of the league (Yeah theyre my 2 favorite players but they are alot better than that)
There are other examples but Madden sucks so I wont go into it.
'
Forget gameplay and drafting and playcalling,,,, those are all determined by little electronic rolls of the dice. But player rankings is something I think they get pretty close. especially the end of year numbers in the final updates,
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I'll tell you right now that Kevin Shaffer being only one point below Marcus McNeill is a glaring load of defication.
You're right, McNiell, an alternate to the Pro-Bowl, should be rated higher.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Yeah, I read what you wrote to Pit,,,
I don't care... IT'S A FREAKIN GAME...
I know you know of Fantasy Football right.. well, this isn't' much different.
Think about it, a guy like Payton Manning is usually a good bet in fantasy football right... yet in several playoff games last year leading up to the Superbowl, he was less than stellar..People were bashing him in the Fantasy Football threads... (yes, I have read them and I find them silly)
What I'm saying here is that the criteria used to value or judge a player is changed by the context in which or for which he is being evaluated...
I doubt that you would consider bashing Payton Manning in real life would you,,,well, me neither. But some of those Fantasy guys were bashing him like an ugly step child...
Why you ask,,,, because they lost with him as thier fantasy QB because he didn't put up the numbers.... That's why.
This is real,,, this isn't a toy.... Madden is a high tech toy.. when those evaluators look at players for Madden, they don't look at them as football players in real life.. They look at them in an entirely different context,,,
So please, STOP trying to convince me that ANYTHING on madden is ANYWHERE near like REAL LIFE.... Please STOP
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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they don't look at them as football players in real life..
I think your wrong,,, but thats cool. EA has full access to these players and every scrap of NFL footage ever made. So I will stick with believing that with a multi million dollar budget and over 10 years of experience they do a better job of evaluating league wide than anyone.
People pay 30 to 100 dollars to subscribe to scouting reports etc to get the same kind of info from a company that doesnt have nearly the resources or access that Madden does. Think of it this way. At 50 bucks a pop,,, they sell somewhere around 5 million copies in the first week. They have resources and access to players that no scout could possibly match.
I would still bet the Madden rankings end up being real close to any scout rankings you could find. But as with any ranking,,, of course its an arbitrary number that needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Much like stats in general.
I would bet if we broke down the positions and the team compared to other players and other teams there wouldnt be a whole lot that could be disputed with the rankings, other than the old its a video game excuse. It may be a game,,, but the first step in making it is evaluating players.
I still dont see anyone disputing the rankings,,,, other than an occasional thing here or there,,,, only the source.
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Well Rage,
In every case I can think of,I post stats and articles to "support my view". It's to strengthen my cause.
If I didn't feel the information was valid,why would I post it to strengthen my arguement? So either you do think it's accurate,which would explain you using it to strengthen your point of view. Or,you don't and it was purely a bogus reach on your part. Which one was it?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
I can tell you the part your not seeing in the overall number is a couple of things. For one the overall number is derived from a multitude of smaller numbers,,,, and rookies always by default get a very low awareness rating wich keeps their overall numbers down. I bet if you went and looked at a small part of the individual ratings, like runblock,,,, pass block and strenght that he would be ahead of Schaeffer by a few points. Not saying that its perfect by anymeans.
Now you're reaching into technicalities. It just proves that the overall number system is pretty bogus.
I can't believe I'm having this conversation.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Well Rage,
In every case I can think of,I post stats and articles to "support my view". It's to strengthen my cause.
If I didn't feel the information was valid,why would I post it to strengthen my arguement? So either you do think it's accurate,which would explain you using it to strengthen your point of view. Or,you don't and it was purely a bogus reach on your part. Which one was it?
What point or view have I expressed? I am not trying to support anything with numbers from Madden. Someone mentioned that they felt Shaeffer was in the 25-32 rank of LTs in the league. So out of curiosity I decided to see where EA had him as compared to other tackles. I feel the ranking are fairly accurate and think I have been pretty clear about that. But I am not saying they are definitive by any means. I dont believe any ranking is definitive,,,, because you cant take into account circumstances,,,luck,,,teamwork,,,,ethic etc.
I am pretty amused how up in arms some of you are actually,,,, And I would like to see someone actually refute the rankings themselves and not the source.
Other than 1 or 2 cases here or there what do you see wrong with the rankings? Because EA measures,, times and weighs players and takes info straight from the teams ,,,,, they are using all the same type of info for their rankings that any scout is. And as with any scout rankings nothing is unanimously set in stone,,,, people are always going to disagree with some of it.
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Other than 1 or 2 cases here or there what do you see wrong with the rankings?
Well,let's start with the fact that the list is incomplete? You only named LT's to Shaffers ranking. Could you post the "complete list" so we can see who is rated below Shaffer?
Having the entire picture rather than an edited version would be most helpfull.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Ok,, I had to change it up some. Because just listing the top 32 would leave out some starting tackles. As some backups are listed as better than starters on other teams. And these also dont take into account moves made this offseason. By team in alpahbetical order,,,,
1. Bears, J. Tait. 90
2. Bengals L. Jones 91
3. Bills M. Lepsis 92
4. Broncos J. Peters 86
5. Browns K. Schaeffer 88
6. Bucs A. Davis 78
7. Caridinals L. Davis 83
8. Chargers M. McNeil 89
9. Chiefs J. Black 80
10.Colts T. Glenn 95
11.Cowboys F. Adams 89
12.Dolphins L. Shelton 80
13.Eagles W. Thomas 94
14.Falcons W. Gandy 88
15.49ers J. Jennings 85
1.Giants L, Pettigout 89
17.Jaguars K. Bharnes 85
18.Jets D. Ferguson 87
19.Loins J. Backus 88
20.Packers C. Clifton 91
21.Panthers T. Wharton 83
22.Patriots M. Light 89
23.Raiders R. Gallery 77
24.Rams O. Pace 96
25.Ravens J. Ogden 96
26.Redskins C. Samuels 93
27.Saints J. Brown 92
28.Seahawks W. Jones 99
29.Steelers M. Smith 89
30.Texans E. Salaam 85
31.Titans M.Roos 81
32.vikings B. McKinnie 93
. And yes I know Shelton and Davis were moved and Pettigout is not with the Giants etcs. Its not 100 percent accurtate in that regard. These are based off the starting rosters from the beginning of last season.
Just to get a sense of scale here,,,, The lowest rated LT is
Richard Collier with the Jags,,, an undrafted free agent out of Valdosta ST.
He is rated 62.
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Or,you don't and it was purely a bogus reach on your part. Which one was it?
Pit, I don't believe for one second that Rage was reaching to prove any point,, I really believe that he believes these stats are valid.. and as far as that goes,, it's cool.. He's allowed to believe that.. I just don't agree with him is all that it is.
But there is another reason that I rail against anything that is either Fantasy football or Gaming based thinking.. as a rule it's all skewed. Based in reality, but not real.
My point in an earlier post made it clear I thought... Payton Manning cost some fantasy guys a game or two last season cause his stats kinda sucked in a few games,,, But no way did he suck in real life.. maybe in those games,, maybe on those particular days,, but not overall..
And that's my point, some people on here look at those things that happen and how it relates to Fantasy or EA SPorts games and decide,, Oh geez,, Manning must be a dog,, That's a pretty stupid thought, but it's happened,, you and I both have seen some idiots come in and say stuff like that on these boards and over at the old Browns board...
Sad but true,,, so I'm totally against any talk of Fantasy or Gaming in the regular forums when anything like that is used to demonstate anything.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Daman, you got to get over the fact that these stats are used in a game. How about this, here is a link to the company that pioneered these stats so we can seperate the stats from the game if that makes you feel better about them. http://www.sportsxchange.com/ Quote:
The Sports Xchange delivers extremely professional, in-depth information . . .a must-read for those with a need to know."
Hall of Fame Coach and GM
Bill Walsh
Quote:
"The Sports Xchange Football Writers Network provides comprehensive player information every day of the NFL season."
Pro Personnel Director
Ron Wolf
Last edited by RageDawg; 03/28/07 12:20 PM.
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Daman, you got to get over the fact that these stats are used in a game.
No I don't have to get over it Rage,,,, I don't like using stats from anything to do with Games or anything to do with Fantasies.. You will never change my mind on it,,,
Please,, Believe whatever you want to,,, it's cool with me really,,, But don't try to convince me otherwise,, on this, my mind is shut!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So you feel it's legit to have M.Light,M.Smith and M.McNeill only ONE POINT ahead of Shaffer? Is that your assertion?
He's better than Ferguson? The same as Backus?
Without looking into it any further or even getting CLOSE to anything contraversial IMO right there are FOUR GLARING ratings that show major flaws in this equasion. Now you can say they "don't allow for this or that" but that's the entire point. There are major discepancies in four ratings that most everyone who simply follows the game at all can see.
And as stated,other than ONE season in his career,he hasn't even protected the QB's blind side in the NFL. Think that may have just a tad to do with these scewed numbers?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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So you feel it's legit to have M.Light,M.Smith and M.McNeill only ONE POINT ahead of Shaffer?
Sure, I dont have the time or resources to study every single lineman in the NFL. but Its definitely conceivable using a number of rankings that they only appear slightly better on paper overall than Schaeffer. This rating is based on him with the Browns,,, this season that just passed. No idea where he was ranked a few years ago with the Falcons. But the ratings move up and down 4 times a year, reflecting what goes on in the game during the season. These numbers were from the end of season update.
But just for grins since there is nothing else to do. Lets break Schaeffer down in comparison to M. Light and Marvel Smith.
Here is an explanation for the category ratings
Strength: Success while engaged with another player during blocking, running or tackling.
Awareness: Overall ability to recognize what is going on around him and react.
Agility: Combination of quickness and ability to change directions without losing speed.
Acceleration: How long he needs to reach top speed.
Pass blocking: Ability to block defenders during a pass play.
Run blocking: Ability to block defenders during a running play, both in-line and on the move in open space.
Run Block Schaeffer 95 Light 88 Smith 98
Pass Block 86......94............87
Strength 92.....85............97
Awareness 85......92........86
Agility 63......62........50
As I said I dont see enough of other teams other than the Jets to really gauge the comparison,,, And as far as Ferguson I would say yes he was a little better this year than Brickshaw was,,, but in 2-5 years that will be a different story. Brickshaw definitely has more tools to work with,,, he just doesnt use what he has as efficiently as even a mediocre vet. A place where the rookies numbers always drag down their overall rating is in the awareness.
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Well,you just keep believing that. It speaks volumes.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Well,you just keep believing that.
It speaks volumes.
Thats alright, Im not one of the ones who like to pretend I am more than I am anyway. Im just a fan, I dont know the waterboy who gives me inside info like some on here. As far as Im concerned those grades are as accurate as any other grades out there.
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but Its definitely conceivable using a number of rankings that they only appear slightly better on paper overall than Schaeffer.
Thats where the problem lies. The game is not played on paper, or on a computer for that matter. It's played on the field.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I'm absolutely cringing at the direction this thread has taken...............
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Thats where the problem lies. The game is not played on paper, or on a computer for that matter. It's played on the field.
Yes GM I do understand that. My only point is that these rankings are no less acurate than any other rankings. And serve mostly as a curiosity as with any rankings. Or stat for that matter. As evidenced by Schaeffers real stats. Im sure most of the uproar is not so much the rankings,,,,but the popular opinion of how bad Schaeffer supposedly is. Kind of like the Northcutt syndrome really,,,, he is never going to be able to live down that first hold of the season as long as he is a Brown.
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I'm absolutely cringing at the direction this thread has taken...............
Madden corrupts the minds of Dawg Talkers!
PRO-BOWLER!
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I'm absolutely cringing at the direction this thread has taken...............
I thought you would be on the Giants board with Reuben by now
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Hehe, I'm a Brown now and forever. I backed Reuben because of what I thought he could do for the team, which he did his first year. He was always a short-term player but the Browns are forever 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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He was always a short-term player but the Browns are forever
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Sorry stat guys...for Offensive Tackles you got to watch. You can state the circumstantial stats all you want. It won't make a Tackle better or worse than he is.
Unless you all really think he's as good as Walter Jones 
Guess what...if I'm a LT and always ignore the guy on my outside shoulder and take the good angle on the guy on my inside shoulder...My QB gets killed...Please see Ravens game and us on the Goal Line for the game clinching TD pass.
But I have a clean whistle on the stats...after all the guy I blocked didn't get the sack -
Shaffer is not a good LT - He will never be a good LT - He simply doesn't possess the skill set to be a good LT its not his fault! 99% of all OLmen don't.
There is no magic OL Fairy busting out of white tights thats going to go PWANG!
Sorry - I don't need any stats...not when I can watch the games.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
nrtu
If you crunch Rage Dog's numbers ( 88.2 is the average) it indicates that Shaffer at 88 is a very average starting left tackle. That reaffirms what many Browns fans know or at least suspect. The sad part is that average is the best Phil can do at this moment in time. It's not Phil's fault or Shaffer's fault. It's just the way it is at this moment in time.....
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,790 |
The only numbers that count are the ones the coaches give the players after every game. By what Savage has said I don't believe Shaffer has graded out very high.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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I can't disagree with the coach's rating being the most accurate. But by definition isn't an average rating "not very high' ??? 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,790
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,790 |
For a Browns lineman an average rating would be outstanding.  For just about everyone else it would not be very high.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,739 |
Quote:
I can't disagree with the coach's rating being the most accurate. But by definition isn't an average rating "not very high' ???
Even if this rating "were right" which it isn't,obviously to anyone with eyes.................20 out 0f 32,when you crunch the numbers is well below average.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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I answered the original post on the thread and then came back to read the remainding posts. Interesting.
Man Vers - if we stuck to football you an I could have some decent conversations...
Pitt - on Tucker...he was pretty much a Nobody until the offseason of 03. Thats when he had some surgery on his elbow and stayed in Berea all Winter to rehab it. First he went all serious and rededicated himself. He got also maybe rejuvinated hanging with the young 20 year old OLmen who were all hanging out in Berea.
He first became serious with rededication to his body and cut out all Fast foods and introduced Chicken and Fish as his Staple Protein and diet...along with Vegetables and Fruits.
He then got serious in his physical workouts and also in Zierlien and his teachings on technique. He became a techniction for the first time in his career.
He made himself a good RT...and so could Shaffer its nowhere too late.
Only problem with Tucker is the instabality he has to the position. I guess - just like a knee...until he goes out there and tests it there will always be questions - especially from his peers.
Don't know Shaffer at all to talk about him one way or another. But most people are Chameleons...they will turn the color of their environment. If you must blame anyone - I would blame Davidson. I think he took his attitude too far with Mo and it hurt a lot more than MO...the OL was fragile as it was. And OL will always tow the line behind their OL coach...its the nature of the beast.
Lets hope Marshall can bring a little more character to our OL.
And besides his talents I agree with Vers...Thomas is a tremendous leader I think even as a rookie he can take over much of the leadership needed. Besides his Persona...he just happens to be that good. Most of the OLmen we have should be a little in awe of him from the get go.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Shaffer's numbers compared to
ProBowl tackles
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