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I know these topics have been talked about ad nauseam but my feelings have changed and I didn't see where to put them. I wanted Shurmur fired before the bye week because I was sure he couldn't coach. Now after a few wins (although teams that weren't very good) I am hoping that we keep Shurmur and have one off-season where the players don't have to learn a brand new offense from scratch. I also think that Heckert has done a nice job putting the team together and drafting players. Now we need to sign one star free agent and this team is heading to the playoffs next year - unless it gets blown up again.
So, if I am correct that we should keep Shurmur and Heckert, then that means that Holmgren did a good job after-all as team president? Is everyone ready to blow it up or stay the course?
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I was 100% set on firing Shurmur 5 weeks ago ... now, I honestly say that we wait to see what the next 3 weeks bring. We play 3 playoff teams and have a slight chance to be one ourselves. It's a big month for Shurmur.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Too soon to say. Wow, I'd never have said that in years past. Something about this team is different. There's no real burning urgency to make change all of a sudden. That doesn't mean we shouldn't always be on the search for upgrades across the board. But all of a sudden we don't need change for change's sake. That's weird...
Let's see how they play out the last three. That'll tell the tale of where we're headed, or at least it'll give us a pretty good hint.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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I wanted Shurmur gone, I still do if he can't pull out two of the next three. I seriously have my doubts that he'll be able to do it. I don't think 6-10 will or should save his job. We, by all rights, should be strongly in the the playoff hunt right now, and IMHO due to the severe shortcomings of the HC, we are not. There is still an outside chance but it's so slim as to be infinitesimal. So it won't bother me to see Shurmur go if he can't at least get us to 7-9. Having said that, I don't want to blow everything up either. I like our defense, I like the talent on the team, and I love the production we're getting from the draft via Heckert. I want more of that. We'll see what happens. That's all we can do now, is wait. 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I dont care about Shurmur. We have to keep Heckert or we will slowly fall apart in the next few years due to bad draft picks. Anyone remember what that is like?
Joe Thomas #73
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I don't even think winning out will save either of their jobs.
I would prepare for some big changes this offseason.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
We, by all rights, should be strongly in the the playoff hunt right now, and IMHO due to the severe shortcomings of the HC, we are not.
Because he threw 4 INTs or because he dropped an INT week one or because he dropped a TD pass against the Colts or because he was tackling WRs in the 4th quarter against the Cowboys? I'm just wondering what severe shortcomings you are talking about.
I would say that with our 8 or 9 rookies, including some at very important positions, our other second year guys, our average age being about 17 that, by all rights, we should be 2-11, which is where most people predicted us to be... but how quickly we forget. We are finally starting to win games so people project what we are doing now back to week 1 and wonder why with all of this youth we didn't start the season this way... 
yebat' Putin
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I don't even think winning out will save either of their jobs.
I would prepare for some big changes this offseason.
I hope you are wrong, but am seriously concerned you are right.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
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If I could save one, it's Heckert. I think he's done a great job bringing in talent via the draft. I'd hate to go back to drafting bums who are out of the league in 3 years max.
I hated Shurmur earlier this year. I'm still not sold on him, but like many have said, there's something different about this team. We've been in every game. We're competitive. We play tough. We play physical. I'm ok with waiting until January and seeing how this plays out. I'd hate to change schemes and learn all new offense and defensive schemes again unless it is completely for the best. We just switched from a 3-4 and are getting the guys in place. We knew how long it took to find guys going from a 4-3 to a 3-4, so I'd hate to put it in reverse.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Keep Heckert. Keep the defensive philosophy and coaching staff intact. That side of the ball can be really special with a couple more impact players.
Shurmur at one time I thought was the worst gameday coach in the NFL. Now, I only think he is one of the worst. I honestly believe that he will make a great team good, and a good team average. None of us want to keep changing things but let's be real, a great O-line will excel is any scheme. A deep threat like Gordon is useful in any scheme. I just don't see much else from the offense, and if keeping the offense means keeping Shurmur, I just can't get too excited about that. I hate settling for mediocrity.
This is where most people will disagree with me, but I want Chip Kelly in Cleveland. From day 1 we will have the best gameday coach in the league. There is a lot of concern about his offense but consider this, it has been reported that Chip Kelly helped Belichick with certain aspects of his no huddle offense, and I have been following and loving how the Patriots have done things for years. Hiring Kelly is a little bit of a risky move, I get that, but I'm trying to hit a home run here.
In fairness, after 3 straight wins, I'm open to the possibility of keeping Shurmur and the entire staff in place. Win 2 of 3 and look good doing it, and he probably deserves to keep his job.
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I have mixed feelings about Shurmur. He is an awful gameday head coach. Probably the worst in the league. He has single-handedly cost us multiple games this season because of poor game/clock management. With that said, I think the players like and respect him. I also think he is a good coach Monday through Saturday. I could go either way on him.
Heckert has done an awesome job and if he is fired it has nothing to do with the decisions he has made.
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Might as well put this here: Cleveland Browns GM Tom Heckert on having final say over roster: 'Not an end-all, but that's why I came here' | cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._medium=twitterBEREA, Ohio - Browns general manager Tom Heckert, in an informal chat with the media today, acknowledged that having final say over the 53-man roster is important to him, but that it wouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker. "It's important, Heckert said. "It's why I came here. Not saying it's an end-all, but it's important to me.'' In an interview with The Plain Dealer last month, Browns CEO Joe Banner said ideally he likes the coach to have final authority over the roster. Would Heckert stay under those circumstances? "It's something that I'd have to discuss with the powers that be,'' Heckert said. Heckert, who became a huge Browns fan in the 1980s when his father worked in personnel for the team, said, "I would love to (stay) but if it doesn't work out here I'll go do it somewhere else.'' Heckert, whose team has won five of the last eight games, said he has no idea what new owner Jimmy Haslam and Banner have in mind. He said they'll talk after the season and have given him no indication. "Whatever happens, happens. We'll talk about it sometime soon.'' Asked if he wants to be back, he said, "Uh, yeah, I really enjoy this city and this team.'' He said he was here for the good times and knows how great it can be. "I was around when the fans were crazy,'' he said. He said the scouts and coaches knew this winning streak was coming and that it was just a matter of time. As for quarterback Brandon Weeden, he said, "I'm comfortable with him. I like Brandon. I think he's gotten better. He's everything you want.'' He also said he's not at all concerned about Trent Richardson's 3.5-yard rushing average. "He's been what we thought. We're not concerned about him at all.'' Heckert said he hasn't concerned himself with rumors that the Browns will replace him with former Browns personnel man Mike Lombardi, and that it's irrelevant in his mind. As for all the fans and media here campaigning for him to stay, he said, "Maybe it's the lesser of two evils.'' More to come soon.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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LOL, Heckert is playing it cagey, knowing that Banner and Haslam would likely try to use that as a reason to make him walk away from the job instead of being fired.
Now the egg will be squarely on their faces if he loses his job, I love it.
Proud fan of the Pulaski Academy football strategy.
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We are finally starting to win games so people project what we are doing now back to week 1 and wonder why with all of this youth we didn't start the season this way...
It could also be said that three wins against bottom ranked teams are allowing people to develop amnesia about the rest of the season, and blunders like wasting time outs, not going for it on 4th and short in Colts territory with the game on the line, going for it on 4th and short in our own territory against the Ravens when punting may have given a reasonable chance to get the ball back. Play calling in the early part of the season that was simply ridiculous and set the rookie QB up to fail by having him pass a stupid numbers of times instead of utilizing the run game to support him, and by not designing pass plays that stood a higher chance of success. Running TR when he's hurt and refusing to utilize a productive Hardesty. Dropped passes and INTs are magnified by this, partially due to this, and at least one of the pick sixes came because of a stupid play call on third and short that should have been a run play. Inability to get plays to the QB on time. Lack of team discipline resulting in poor tackling and excessive penalties. Like it or not, this was our team for most of the season and the responsibility for all of that falls on Shurmur.
Has the team improved, has he improved? Maybe. We won't really know until we see how he and the team do against relevant teams. We have a hard time getting the ball in the end zone from the red zone against bad teams, so don't be surprised if our offense is rendered ineffective against the next three teams who are all playing with playoff implications on the line. The next three weeks will tell us a lot about how far he and they have come. Bang your head all you want, we'll know in three weeks.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Thats bullcrap. I am sorry folks but Shurmur has been a very good coach for the Browns. He has made some mistakes but no coach is perfect. He has taken a team full of kids and had them compete every freaking week. If he wasnt a pretty good gameday coach, we would have been blown out every game for the last 2 years.
We lost close games early because of rookie mistakes/injuiries to key vets and the rookies start eliminating those mistakes and we start getting health and guess what we start winning.
Punting in INdy was a really stupid move by a coach. The next week I disagreed with going for it in our own territory and thought it was a really dumb move but many on here said they would have gone for it as well. Really those are the mistakes I blame on the coach.
Goaline situations, Trent hasnt been willing to run through people. Thats not the coach. Weeden has shown a tendency to turn the ball over in the redzone so we have limited him a bit. Thats not bad coaching thats covering your butt from eliminating the Giants debacle.
These kids are improving every week and that is coaching.
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Did you even read my post? Or did you read it and disregard the positive things I said
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I think game day coaching is debateable. There's been pros and cons, some good, some bad. Has there been improvement? Possibly.
But what blows me away is the development of our young guys. Never seen anything like that in Cleveland before. The young guys get better and better every week. That's a credit to Shurmur and his staff.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Due to Joe Banner being vilified, much of his smarts are being glossed-over. One thing he said which happens to be the truth should be observed here:
Beating the Steelers isn't enough to judge Shurmur. His overall body of work is what he should fairly be judged on. In that same thought, beating three hapless teams, while encouraging, is far from an accurate barometer to determine how good Shurmur is or is not.
Like Crennel, Shurmur has proven to be a poor game-day manager, and no amount of preparation or player adoration can make up for that. If he shows serious growth in that area...growth that he hasn't shown in the first 29 games of his career here...then that could change the picture. However, the clock is still ticking on him.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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What are Joe Banner's qualifications again?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I don't want Heckert fired, I never wanted him fired. I don't want Shurmur fired, but him, I did a lot of questioning about.
I guess I felt all along that with this young a team, we were in for a rough year in the beginning but that towards the middle through the end, we'd improve and win some games. Honestly, I thought it was going to start happening sooner, but it didn't.
But it is kinda happening as I suspected it might.
So, while I questioned some decisions that Shumur made, I think he's a good young coach who will grow with this team
I'd hate to see Haslam and Banner rip this up and start over.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Thats bullcrap. I am sorry folks but Shurmur has been a very good coach for the Browns. He has made some mistakes but no coach is perfect. He has taken a team full of kids and had them compete every freaking week. If he wasnt a pretty good gameday coach, we would have been blown out every game for the last 2 years.
We lost close games early because of rookie mistakes/injuiries to key vets and the rookies start eliminating those mistakes and we start getting health and guess what we start winning.
Punting in INdy was a really stupid move by a coach. The next week I disagreed with going for it in our own territory and thought it was a really dumb move but many on here said they would have gone for it as well. Really those are the mistakes I blame on the coach.
Goaline situations, Trent hasnt been willing to run through people. Thats not the coach. Weeden has shown a tendency to turn the ball over in the redzone so we have limited him a bit. Thats not bad coaching thats covering your butt from eliminating the Giants debacle.
These kids are improving every week and that is coaching.
I am coming around to this line of thought.
Although 12 seconds into last week's game, I wanted to fire him then and there. 
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I wanted Shurmur's head after the Indy punt.
Against KC we saw some creative offensive and special teams play. If we can get that every week I won't want him fired.
I am not willing to put up with conservative gameplans. Give me gadgets or get lost.
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Before the season this team was expected, by most people who predict such things, to win 2-4 games... looks like they may win 6 or 7...
Sorry but your post sounds like a long whine of things that didn't work... Coaches call plays to win games, Shanahan is going to get RGIII killed running the option with as many hits as he's taking and the Redskins lead the NFL in penalties, and the Redskins absolutely blew the game against the Giants... maybe Shanahan should be fired.
yebat' Putin
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What are Joe Banner's qualifications again?
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Since 1995, Lurie and Banner's first full year with the Eagles, Philadelphia has been in the playoffs 11 times in 16 years. In the previous 62 years of the team's existence, the club earned 14 appearances. Only Indianapolis has made more playoff appearances than the Eagles since 1995 and only two franchises have won more playoff games and appeared in more conference title games in that time span: New England and Pittsburgh.
Want more, Mr. Smarty-pants, or is that enough?
Of course there isn't an executive in the NFL who would keep a coach just because he beat a rival who was starting a 3rd string QB.
Can we get back to the point now, which is Shurmur and Heckert?
BEREA, Ohio - Browns general manager Tom Heckert, in an informal chat with the media today, acknowledged that having final say over the 53-man roster is important to him, but that it wouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker.
"It's important, Heckert said. "It's why I came here. Not saying it's an end-all, but it's important to me.''
In an interview with The Plain Dealer last month, Browns CEO Joe Banner said ideally he likes the coach to have final authority over the roster. Would Heckert stay under those circumstances?
"It's something that I'd have to discuss with the powers that be,'' Heckert said.
Heckert, who became a huge Browns fan in the 1980s when his father worked in personnel for the team, said, "I would love to (stay) but if it doesn't work out here I'll go do it somewhere else.''
Heckert, whose team has won five of the last eight games, said he has no idea what new owner Jimmy Haslam and Banner have in mind. He said they'll talk after the season and have given him no indication. "Whatever happens, happens. We'll talk about it sometime soon.''
Asked if he wants to be back, he said, "Uh, yeah, I really enjoy this city and this team.'' He said he was here for the good times and knows how great it can be. "I was around when the fans were crazy,'' he said.
He said the scouts and coaches knew this winning streak was coming and that it was just a matter of time.
As for quarterback Brandon Weeden, he said, "I'm comfortable with him. I like Brandon. I think he's gotten better. He's everything you want.''
He also said he's not at all concerned about Trent Richardson's 3.5-yard rushing average. "He's been what we thought. We're not concerned about him at all.''
Heckert said he hasn't concerned himself with rumors that the Browns will replace him with former Browns personnel man Mike Lombardi, and that it's irrelevant in his mind.
As for all the fans and media here campaigning for him to stay, he said, "Maybe it's the lesser of two evils.''
It's not an end-all, but control over the roster is why I came here
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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There are worse game day decision makers ... But not many!
That's my biggest problem with Shurmur. I have a real problem with tentative, dumbly passive coaches. I like the WCO, not enamored but it's fine. I don't like punting in the 4th quarter on your opponents 40. And more "stuff" like that. It's a losers mentality.
If I had my way it'd be to keep Heckert, keep Jauron working with the defense an bring in Josh McDaniels as HC. Brandon Weeden's upside looks like what Tom Brady is. He's a immobile strong armed pocket passer. Would love to see that offense recreated and tailored to Weeden here.
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to be fair, he has been far less passive in the last 5-6 games
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
What are Joe Banner's qualifications again?
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Since 1995, Lurie and Banner's first full year with the Eagles, Philadelphia has been in the playoffs 11 times in 16 years. In the previous 62 years of the team's existence, the club earned 14 appearances. Only Indianapolis has made more playoff appearances than the Eagles since 1995 and only two franchises have won more playoff games and appeared in more conference title games in that time span: New England and Pittsburgh.
I guess I'll ask again. What are his qualifications that would lead him to have final say on football matters here? The fact that he was part of a winning organization ... which is all your answer provided ... doesn't answer my question. I'm sure they've had the same groundskeeper in Philly during Banner's time there when they went to all those playoff games. Maybe he can come and run the Browns too.
Serious question because I don't remember reading it ... all I remember reading is he handled contracts while in Philly.
So again, what are his qualifications?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I guess I'll ask again. What are his qualifications that would lead him to have final say on football matters here?
What difference does it make?
yebat' Putin
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Heckert's comments today(12/14) do not sound to me like a guy who expects to be with the Browns.
"Whatever happens, happens"
On final say of the 53 man roster:
"It's important, Heckert said. "It's why I came here. Not saying it's an end-all, but it's important to me.''
Heckert said he hasn't concerned himself with rumors that the Browns will replace him with former Browns personnel man Mike Lombardi, and that it's irrelevant in his mind.
As for all the fans and media here campaigning for him to stay, he said, "Maybe it's the lesser of two evils.''
"I would love to (stay) but if it doesn't work out here I'll go do it somewhere else.''
Doesn't sound to good to me. Goes without saying if he is fired then Shurmur will follow his footsteps.
I have followed this team fanatically since 1960. Have taken my fair share of abuse. This will be just another another shot to the chops.
I do not see blowing up this organization as a positive step for this team at this time.
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Heckert played this beautifully.
J&J are going to try to tell the fans that they tried to work things out with Heckert and he CHOSE to leave.
Heckert just cut them off at the pass.
Well played, Tom. Well played.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I love that he knows he's guaranteed himself a job somewhere in the NFL with his work done here.
Oh, you don't want to keep me, shucks, I guess I'll go live in SD or AZ or Carolina
#gmstrong
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I love that he knows he's guaranteed himself a job somewhere in the NFL with his work done here.
Oh, you don't want to keep me, shucks, I guess I'll go live in SD or AZ or Carolina
I also think it's funny how nonchalant he is about having to do that... we as fans want these guys to live and die with this team. We sort of expect them to be as emotionally invested in it as we are and I'm sure they are very involved when they are in the middle of it but in the end it's their job... and if they aren't wanted here, then it will still be their job somewhere else...
yebat' Putin
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I don't think he's being nonchalant. Let's face it, there are only 32 of those positions.
I think he knows he has the upper hand. His stock has never been higher. Unlike Shurmur who will not be a head coach next year if relieved of his duties, Heckert most certainly will be a GM somewhere else if not here. Hell, he's probably had preliminary discussions with a team or two.
And now he just set the wheels in motion for J&J to take the blame on him leaving. I do believe he really wants to be here, but if he's not, he won't be taking the blame for it.
This was gamesmanship, and he just took the upperhand.
Here's something else for people to ponder. In his presser today, Heckert stated that control over the 53 wasn't as important as controlling the draft and controlling the trades. He basically just provided another reason to keep him around that coincidentally fits with a vision Banner has of the coach controlling the 53.
Maybe Heckert is the smartest guy in the room.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550 |
If I had my way it'd be to keep Heckert, keep Jauron working with the defense an bring in Josh McDaniels as HC.
Held we agree on a lot but wow. McDaniels?
Player development is part of head coaching and it is a huge part. The Mangini and McDaniels of the world dont understand that you have to develop players, they dont come all coached up ready to hit the field running. The reason they want 15 year vets is because they dont know how to coach these young kids and it is why the Browns and the Broncos were such a freaking disaster.
Quick fix after quick fix have failed so what does Browns fans want? Another quick fix. Reminds me of parents that want road scholar kids and they sit in front of the computer while their kids sit in front of tv for 16 hrs a day.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
I think that Pat Shurmur could very well be a head coach very soon if he was fired here.
The one major thing he has going for him is that he was willing to hire the best possible staff. Not every new head coach wants a bunch of former head coaches on his staff. Shurmur was perfectly willing to do so. He didn't delegate as much as I would have preferred last year, but he (and the front office) corrected that problem with the hiring of Childress. Not every young head coach would do such a thing. Many would not want to give up any control, especially control directly over their area of expertise. Shurmur seems to have done this. It is probably one of the main, and most important, things that allows a young coach to become a successful coach.
Plus, the Browns have played hard, and have improved under his leadership. They never gave up, even after starting out 0-5. I think that is a testament to his leadership as well.
If he gets fired here, I think that he'll find a job with a team suited to the WCO fairly quickly.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728 |
Get away from the computer. It's Rhodes. 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858 |
This is interesting: Quote:
BEREA -- Browns general manager Tom Heckert says he would be deeply disappointed if he's let go at the end of this season.
With the Browns still in playoff contention with three games left, Heckert does not know if he'll be brought back by new Cleveland owner Jimmy Haslam and CEO Joe Banner.
Heckert, who was hired by former president Mike Holmgren, expects to learn his fate "right away" after the season.
If he's fired, Heckert is confident he's "going to get a shot somewhere else." Heckert's current contract includes control of the 53-man roster.
He indicated it would be difficult for him to give that up, but it's not "the end-all."
Heckert praised Browns coach Pat Shurmur, whose future is also uncertain.
Heckert said the doubt about next season has been hard on his family and young scouting staff.
The Associated Press
http://www.wkyc.com/sports/article/273652/4/Browns-GM-Heckert-doesnt-know-fate
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550 |
Lucky I got that close lol. I am dieing with the flu and I cant spell for crap anyway. Muddy Roads, Dusty Rhodes, no one cares. Point is The guy we have is doing a good job and doenst need to be replaced, especially with another egotistical bully that would never be able to coach players like Little and Gordon.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728 |
It was just funny to me...it was like you were channeling me or something... So my daughters day care had a half day today. My wife is in NYC for work so she obviously can't pick her up. And I'm still working (I can work from home when I choose) so I go and pick her up and I'm reading this site from time to time.... And she's watching Elmo and I'm reading this... And I think HOW DARE YOU! And you can't even spell Rhodes! And my daughter will be a Rhodes scholar HOW DARE YOU! It was just kind of hilarious to me.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692 |
Quote:
to be fair, he has been far less passive in the last 5-6 games
That's because his job is on the line. But you wouldn't hear that out of Shurmur's mouth. Shurmur has been reactive to the media instead of reactive to the game and his conservative flaws (hence the punt in the Indy game followed by the Ravens 4th and 2 conversion attempt).
What kind of coach are we asking for, someone who is easily swayed or fundamentally sound?
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pat Shurmur and Tom Heckert
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