|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Shurmur's fate was sealed as soon as the keys to the club were handed to Jimmy Haslam.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,076
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,076 |
Well then.... take a look around, and tell me who else could have totally purged a team of over-the-hill FA's, spare parts from the draft, and >30 broken-down Jets- and replaced them with the promising 20-somethings we now have.... Who else could have taken us from one of the oldest, slowest teams in the league, and made us one of the youngest, with this much upside....
...in two drafts?
Who?
....and now, you should be compelled to offer names of not just GM's already working (because they'd have no reason to take a sideways move), but you should also feel compelled to offer up any names who might be available if Heckert gets dumped.
Unless of course, you're OK with Mike *coughLosercough* Lombardi coming here...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Ryan Grigson has done it in a single season.
You could say that Andrew Luck hasn't been all that, but his team has 9 wins against 5 loses and would make the playoffs right now and would secure a playoff appearance in season #1 with a win against Kansas City this weekend.
So, you were saying again?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,433
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 9,433 |
J/C I think the fate of both men rest on two draft picks neither men reportedly made. Yes, I think McCoy and Weeden cost both men their jobs. You can't blame Pat for wanting to get away from the run after trotting out a less than effective TRich yesterday. Not his fault that the QB can't make an NFL pass, either. Has some of his decisions been head scratchers, sure. But I still think he gets fired because of the lack of production from the offense. One could argue "drop the WCO and implement the spread!" but look at how that worked for Timmy boy in New York... Heckert''s fate will rest on these two picks, too. The QB position, while debatable if these were his picks, has been the worst drafted position in his tenure. McCoy can't play in a WCO and Weeden isn't showing much promise, either. Maybe he should get some flack for drafting an injury prone back. I think that's a bit unfair. If I really wanted to nitpick I'd mention something about TJ Ward but I'll pass on that  Beats me who can replace these two men. I sure don't like the idea of Lombardi unless he's a puppet of Saban, Cowher, or a coach who can effectively play the role of G.M.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
....and now, you should be compelled to offer names of not just GM's already working (because they'd have no reason to take a sideways move), but you should also feel compelled to offer up any names who might be available if Heckert gets dumped.
I'm not compelled to do anything. I'm not the one who said that Tom Heckert is the most accomplished GM in the NFL.
If what you meant is that there probably isn't a better candidate out there than the guy we've got right now, then I'd be inclined to agree, partly because I think Heckert's been decent but mostly because I'm not terribly studied up on up-and-coming NFL front office guys. But that's not what you said.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,030
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,030 |
Good point. I don't care if Heckert goes or stays (PS is toast so it isn't worth discussing anymore IMO). He's done some decent things so I won't be upset if he's retained. On the other hand the guy has made some big wiffs as well like drafting a 29 year old QB in round 1.......so I don't see the travesty some seem to think it is.
Bottom line the team has continued to be horrible during his time here and isn't really improving all that much. In today's NFL people get fired for not winning anymore than 5 games in a season over a three year span. I certainly don't blame Jimmy for canning him if he does because the results simply aren't there. Heckert being retained to me at least isn't the no brainer that everyone else seems to think it is.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
And yet, McCoy had 3 game-winning drives last year and Weeden has had 1.
Kicking a 53-yard field goal with 11:23 left in the game is a "game-winning drive"?
Scoring a touchdown with 12:20 left is a "game-winning drive"?
I mean, I guess that yeah, those are the scoring possessions in which the lead was gained and not relinquished, but they're not exactly what I'd define as game-winning drives.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,076
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,076 |
"False Equivalence," is what I'd say.
The Colts have nowhere near the number of Rookies and Sophomores starting on their squad as we have, and Grigson didn't have to purge the team while getting them. So, he didn't do it in one year. I'd venture to say he didn't do at all what Heckert did. He got the #1 pick (which was a no-brainer), and then had a pretty good draft with the additions of Fleener, Hilton, and perhaps Ballard. Not bad at all... but he didn't have to rebuild the entire team on both sides of the ball while picking up these guys.
To date, they have exactly 10 rookies on their active roster, some of whom don't yet regularly see the field....which means that they aren't relying on those rookies for every-week performance like we are.
Colts aren't even in the top 8 of youngest teams in the NFL, whereas the Browns are ranked 3rd, after being the 2nd or 3rd oldest just 2 drafts ago.
So unless you can say with confidence that Grigson could have pulled off the same wholesale transformation of an entire team in 3 drafts (with the first draft as a semi-throwaway for a lame-duck holdover coach and soon-to-be discarded O&D scheme/Coaching Staff), then what I say will stand... without a serious challenge from you, or your assertion that acquiring Andrew Luck somehow equates to the magnitude of what Heckert has pulled off, so far.
That's what I was talking about, when I pimped Heckert.
FALSE.
EQUIVALENCE.
Now- what say you?
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728 |
Is it bad that the first thing that went through my mind when you said:
"Hoisting the Lombardi"
Was that my back probably couldn't handle it.
Ahhhh. Life as a Browns fan.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
To date, they have exactly 10 rookies on their active roster, some of whom don't yet regularly see the field....which means that they aren't relying on those rookies for every-week performance like we are.
Hilton, Fleener, Ballard, Brazill, Allen and obviously Luck are all significant contributors on offense, and Hilton is their punt returner.
Arguing about who turned over a roster better is pretty silly, if you ask me. Clearly they're doing things pretty decently over in Indianapolis right now after a disastrous 2011 season.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
I already broke down how he did before final drives in lost games. McCoy was nowhere near as effective as Weeden. (the first game of the season and the last couple of games notwithstanding) McCoy build a huge chunk of his stats in lost games. It's like Weeden throwing that TD pass to Benjamin with us down at the time 31-14 with 10 minutes left in the game. It was a nice play to see, but in the end, changed nothing.
Last year we beat truly awful teams at the bottom of their cycles.
We beat the Colts and Dolphins when they completely sucked. They were 0 for the 1st half last year. Our defense held the Dolphins to 16 points.
We beat the Jaguars. Yippee. Our defense held them to 10 points.
We beat the Seahags. Our defense held them to 3 points.
Our offense sucked last year, and the QB was a huge part of that. You can disagree, but the fact that McCoy went to the bench immediately shows what the team, from top to bottom, though of his abilities and play last year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
Last year we beat truly awful teams at the bottom of their cycles.
Nothing like the Chiefs, Raiders, and Chargers.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577 |
Quote:
Quote:
Last year we beat truly awful teams at the bottom of their cycles.
Nothing like the Chiefs, Raiders, and Chargers.
... and Pit without their starting QB and plenty of injuries who could only score 14. We beat some truly awful teams at the bottom of their cycles. Good job Brandon. Just excellent.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
I realize you blame Weeden on MH but I remember Heckert's hard on for him before the draft......he wanted him.
Well, I wanna be very clear about why I blame The Walrus for Weeden.
I felt that reaching for a soon-to-be 29-year old rookie with the 22nd pick in any draft was a gamble of monumental proportion. In fact, as I've pointed it was such a huge gamble that no team in the history of the NFL has been brave (read: desperate or dumb) enough to try it. To me it absolutely REEKED of a man who was willing to try anything to try and save his job because he'd done such a poor job up until that point.
If you lined up every QB in the 2012 draft and made them all 22-years old, I had Weeds as a 2nd round, developmental guy. In spite of his arm, he wasn't particularly accurate in college, and didn't play in an offense that was anything close to what he'd see in the NFL, so there was no way of knowing if he had the mind to make it. Truth was that many of his head-scratchers in college were enough to tell me that he wasn't in the same class as your typical 1st round QB. If you suddenly make him 28, I turn him into a 3rd or 4th rounder. He came to the NFL from a flag-football league that made McCoy look like Montana, and with the way McCoy was exposed, people should have learned something.
So my big gripe wasn't that we drafted him, it's that we spent the 22nd pick in the draft to get him. Now I can say I'm certain he'd have been there later. People can debate that until the cows come home and I'd have no way to prove it one way or another. But unless some other team was so desperate that they'd be inclined to make the same gamble we did, which is highly unlikely, we just wasted the 22nd pick in the draft when we could have spent a much less valuable pick.
My big problem with the Walrus is more about him being a meddler and not letting Heckert do what he was brought here to do, so in terms of Weeds, yeah, I blame The Walrus for making Heckert over-draft Weeds.
Now I'm solidly on-board with wanting to keep Heckert. However, if we drop our last 3, that makes his case much harder to make.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577 |
Toad.. ya need to shorten that..
Weeden was a reach where he was drafted and thats on the Walrus.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Yeah, but then someone else would come along and say "But why do you think he was a reach? He had 1st round ability" which would mean I'd have had to type it out anyway. 
Just headin' it off at the pass, hehe.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
So my big gripe wasn't that we drafted him, it's that we spent the 22nd pick in the draft to get him. Now I can say I'm certain he'd have been there later. People can debate that until the cows come home and I'd have no way to prove it one way or another. But unless some other team was so desperate that they'd be inclined to make the same gamble we did, which is highly unlikely, we just wasted the 22nd pick in the draft when we could have spent a much less valuable pick.
KC was planning to move ahead of our pick in the second round and take him, I believe.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577 |
KC isn't a bubbling cauldron of football intelligence.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
So my big gripe wasn't that we drafted him, it's that we spent the 22nd pick in the draft to get him. Now I can say I'm certain he'd have been there later. People can debate that until the cows come home and I'd have no way to prove it one way or another. But unless some other team was so desperate that they'd be inclined to make the same gamble we did, which is highly unlikely, we just wasted the 22nd pick in the draft when we could have spent a much less valuable pick.
KC was planning to move ahead of our pick in the second round and take him, I believe.
I haven't heard or seen a story speaking of such a thing. The only thing I heard was Holmgren speaking cryptically that he thought someone would get Weeds before he did to justify drafting him that high, so he over-ruled Heckert, which brings me back to the original problem.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
KC isn't a bubbling cauldron of football intelligence.
nope, that's Romeo's gumbo in that bubbling cauldron
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Right. I thought I recall that someone that Holmgren was being cryptic about being KC. Something about wanting Tannehill but he was gone by their first pick. But you're asking me to remember pretty far back haha
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
We beat Pittsburgh anytime and it's cause to celebrate as far as I'm concerned.
We have lost to those same backup QBs in the past.
Last year we scored 3 points and 9 points (Wallace) in the 2 games against the Steelers. We damn near crippled Roethlisberger in those games.
Last year we scored 218 points and allowed 307 for the year. This year we have scored 280 with 2 games left to play, and have allowed 310 points.
In our last 5 games we have scored 20, 20, 20, 30, and 21.
Last year we scored 20+ twice. This year we have scored 20+ points 8 times. (out of 14 games so far)
The QB is certainly not perfect. He's had ups and downs throughout the season. The running game has had issues as well. The defense has let us down in at least 2 games when they allowed game winning or tying drives to the opposition.
I am just stunned that people are blaming the QB, almost exclusively, in a game where we ran for 58 yards, and the defense gave up 38 points. One of those TD drives they allowed was a short field because of an INT, but the rest? Not really. The final 4 drives (not counting the kneel down to end the game) were a 7 play, 60 yard TD drive, a 7 play drive ending with a punt, a 10 play, 67 yard TD drive, and an 8 play, 67 yard TD drive.
Sorry, but there wasn't a single unit that covered itself in glory in this game. The punter sucked. The QB sucked. The RB sucked. The OL sucked. The defense sucked. The truly weird thing is that the receivers, for the most part, had good games. That's about it though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
Last year we scored 20+ twice. This year we have scored 20+ points 8 times. (out of 14 games so far)
So last year we were horrible, this year we are just below average.
(The average team scores 22.7 points per game, we score 20.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
We are scoring almost a TD more per game this year than we did last year. (13.6 to 20.0)
Again, not perfect, but steps in the right direction.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
We also have better a running back, offensive line, and receiving core.
Imagine how many more points per game we would score if we had a league average QB and head coach/offensive coordinator.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692 |
Quote:
We also have better a running back, offensive line, and receiving core.
Imagine how many more points per game we would score if we had a league average QB and head coach/offensive coordinator.
Bingo!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
We are doing a marginally better job running the football this year, except in goal line situations, where we have improved greatly. We ran for 1531 yards last year. (95 yards/game) This year we have run for 1364 through 14 games. (97 yards/game) Whoa .... what a huge improvement. 3.7 yards/carry last year, and 3.9 yards/carry this year. Major league improvement there.  The biggest improvement in the run game is that we've run for 12 TD this year ve only 4 last year. Many of the TD runs have been of the very short yardage variety. Nonetheless, we have been doing a better job of running the ball in from the 1 or 2. That's a major improvement. We are 23rd in rushing attempts. We are 24th in rushing yards. We are 25th in rushing yards/game. The run game overall hasn't been much to brag about.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
I'm sure you agree that our run threat is much greater, yes?
Trent Richardson > Peyton Hillis version 2011
Also, no mention of the improved offensive line and wide receiver core? That is one of the cornerstones of a crappy argument; focus on the one thing that might be in your favor and ignore the things that might kill your point.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
Richardson at the goal line is an upgrade.
Anywhere else he is a wash right now. He's not a guy you can feed the ball to and expect him to get you 4 yards every time. He's not even close. Right now he is a guy who can score down close, but cannot be counted on for any consistency anywhere else on the field.
He is a solid receiver though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Quote:
We also have better a running back, offensive line, and receiving core.
Imagine how many more points per game we would score if we had a league average QB and head coach/offensive coordinator.
Bingo!
Let's fact check that "bingo"
2011 RBs (16 games):
Hillis+Hardesty+Obi....322 carries, 3.69ypc, 1187yds
leader: Hillis: 161 carries, 3.65ypc, 587yds
2012 RBs (through 14 games):
TRich+Hardesty+Obi.....330 carries, 3.71ypc, 1224yds
leader: TRich: 258 carries, 3.48ypc, 897yds
So much for "Bingo", TRich is less effective than Hillis last year and we deemed last year's running game bad enough to spend a 3rd overall and more on TRich
We score almost a TD more per game because of the passing game, NOT the running game...we have scored more rushing TDs, but that's because the passing game got us into that position...the last 2 games were perfect examples for that as TRich got handed 4 TDs and didn't even net 80yds doing so
My take from this?
We have upgraded significantly at WR and RT
We have upgraded a lot at QB (that's more a punch to Colt than praise for Weeds)
We have upgraded slightly (and that's being generous and taking Hardesty's numbers into account) at RB
TRich and Weeden are in the same boat....yet one is the next big thing and the other needs to be replaced
Insane 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806 |
Quote:
Quote:
To date, they have exactly 10 rookies on their active roster, some of whom don't yet regularly see the field....which means that they aren't relying on those rookies for every-week performance like we are.
Hilton, Fleener, Ballard, Brazill, Allen and obviously Luck are all significant contributors on offense, and Hilton is their punt returner.
Arguing about who turned over a roster better is pretty silly, if you ask me. Clearly they're doing things pretty decently over in Indianapolis right now after a disastrous 2011 season.
Indy was a perennial playoff team until the Peyton injury. Then they have a catastrophically bad year using high school caliber QB's in Collins and Painter. They actually started looking pretty decent once they went to Orlovski. The baseline talent was there. The problem was total incompetence at QB. Then they take Luck with the #1 overall pick. Didn't take a genius to make that pick. My sister could have made that pick.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
Didnt they have a fire sale and rebuild half their team though? If I remember right it was more then just swapping QB's.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Yeah, Indy pretty much blew up their entire offensive side of the ball after the season, outside of Reggie Wayne who was a FA and not expected to re-sign with them. Like I said above, they get solid production from rookies on offense at the QB, TE, RB, FB (converted TE), and two WR positions.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Richardson at the goal line is an upgrade.
Anywhere else he is a wash right now. He's not a guy you can feed the ball to and expect him to get you 4 yards every time. He's not even close. Right now he is a guy who can score down close, but cannot be counted on for any consistency anywhere else on the field.
He is a solid receiver though.
Gonna use this as a jumping off point. It's much less about Rich specifically, and far more about yet another reason why I want Shurmur gone.
On vacation and in Wooster for the holidays. Paid for the Coaches Film. Haven't just been watching the Browns, but other teams as well so that I've got base-comparisons for Weeds.
Something that has really jumped out at me is that for as little experience as Tannehill has, and as much as Weeden has, Tannehill has the ability to audible and change plays, while Weeden clearly doesn't.
So how does that tie to Rich? There have been numerous runs where the defense loaded up the side of the ball where Rich was slated to run. I can actually see Weeden give those defenders an extra moment's attention as if he's wanting to do something else, but then has no choice but to snap the ball. 6 defenders on 3 linemen and a fullback...and it's no wonder we don't gain yards. There's more about Rich but this isn't the thread for it. Our blocking schemes are WEAK, and our guards don't come off combo-blocks well at all. Lauvao is terrible at it.
If the Fish are comfortable enough to allow a rookie with very little experience to audible, shouldn't we allow our 29-year old to do the same?
Now granted, Weeden may have no idea what to call, as he appears to be really thinking more than Tannehill, but in today's NFL, if you aren't allowing your QB to change plays once in a while, you're stuck in the dark ages.
It's not as though I needed any more ammo to bury Shurmur, but there it is...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
Well, Tannehill had what ..... 2 or 3 years in the WCO as a receiver, and as a QB, plus moving into the same offense in Miami? The Dolphins hired his college coach, Mike Sherman, as their offensive coordinator.
I find it rather ironic that some of the QBs who have had the most success, have tailored their offenses to fit what their QBs do best.
Andrew Luck ran a pro style offense in college, and runs the same in Indy.
RG3 runs an offense in DC that is very similar to what he ran in college. They have incorporated many spread aspects to help RG3 be more comfortable.
Ryan Tannehill runs the same offense, and his college coach is his offensive coordinator.
Russel Wilson ran a pro style offense at Wisconsin.
Brandon Weeden ran a spread offense in college, and had to learn a completely new offense in Cleveland. He had to learn how to work primarily from under Center, had to learn an offense, that many have reminded us, takes 3 years to learn, and he really had an inflexible coaching staff. (and the same could be said about McCoy's time under Center)
I am disappointed in how Weeden seems to have regressed in the past couple of games. I do worry about whether this is coaching, or the player, especially given that we have now seen it happen to 2 different QBs.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Unless you're a Mike Vick type of QB, if you've got the goods to be an NFL starter, you should be able to operate the WCO.
Now keeping in mind I have viewed Weeds as a developmental QB since before the draft happened, I am comfortable giving him some time, which is what I've stated regardless of my criticisms. However, what I've seen aren't complicated reads in the WCO. He's just still trying to figure out a non flag-football offense. Maybe that's why the coaches won't let him audible. That question not even the All-22 can answer.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
Unless you're a Mike Vick type of QB, if you've got the goods to be an NFL starter, you should be able to operate the WCO.
Now keeping in mind I have viewed Weeds as a developmental QB since before the draft happened, I am comfortable giving him some time, which is what I've stated regardless of my criticisms. However, what I've seen aren't complicated reads in the WCO. He's just still trying to figure out a non flag-football offense. Maybe that's why the coaches won't let him audible. That question not even the All-22 can answer.
Not that it matters much your post here reminded of Kosar saying he would drive Marty crazy because he would just draw up plays in the dirt to beat what he saw the defense was showing him.
To bad right now Weeden cant do that because its the way he seems to play the best.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,551
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,551 |
Weeden didnt take a snap from under center, had no playbook and really made his career throwing to receivers never covered and often stationary.
In this offense 90% of plays are from under center. The playbook and language is complicated and it takes a mastery of the system to be very successful in it. You are also throwing to receivers that have a step or two on the defender and that is considered wide open and the receivers are always moving. It is a run after catch system.
I think the guy has a chance to be a terrific QB as he grows into the system. I mean the guys around him are still learning the system as well. If we are still running the same system next year, I believe we will see a dramatic improvement.
I remember having a convo on Richardson when he said, "We ran a very similar blocking scheme at Bama." The person, forgot who it was on here but they rightfully pointed out that similar scheme is not the same scheme and that could slow Richardson. I do think some of it is not fully trusting or knowing the blocking scheme and anticipating where the hole is going to be.
Frankly, Richardson is made for this system and he should really stud out in it. His hands are fantastic and once Gordon, Benjamin and company take the lid of the defense, there will be more big plays for Richardson. His dancing will stop and I think we end up with the next Emmit Smith.
Anyway all these kids are learning together and it is amazing how far they have come. I think we are building something truly special and I dont want it torn up.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
His dancing will stop and I think we end up with the next Emmit Smith.
If anyone is willing to drop the coin and pony-up for the All-22 and Coaches Film, they'll be surprised to see how little dancing actually goes on.
It's an eye-opener to see just how badly our line is blocking in the run-game, and to see just how much thinking Weeden is doing.
However, the biggest eye-opener IMHO is how hand-cuffed Weeden and Richardson are. If the defense knows which side we're going to run the ball and stack it, we run anyway and get killed.
The WCO works, but this version of it with these guards...blecht.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
Quote:
His dancing will stop and I think we end up with the next Emmit Smith.
If anyone is willing to drop the coin and pony-up for the All-22 and Coaches Film, they'll be surprised to see how little dancing actually goes on.
It's an eye-opener to see just how badly our line is blocking in the run-game, and to see just how much thinking Weeden is doing.
However, the biggest eye-opener IMHO is how hand-cuffed Weeden and Richardson are. If the defense knows which side we're going to run the ball and stack it, we run anyway and get killed.
The WCO works, but this version of it with these guards...blecht.
Alright now you have my curiousity up because what you are saying doesnt go hand in hand. This is what I see week to week, many of us have talked about it and we've seen talk from the team(s) about it as well and now you bring it up.
I can normally call about 70% of all Browns offensive plays by run or pass and direction, its probably higher just trying to find a low end of avg. This is week to week from about week 3 on.
Now you have watched the all 22 which I have never seen and you are saying you see the same thing. The plays are obvious and its handicapping the offense which again I would agree with. Then finally you say the O Line is stinking it up because they are not doing a good job? Wouldnt it stand to reason that becasue the defense knows whats coming they can blow up a play much faster then an O-line could block it?
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pat Shurmur and Tom Heckert
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)
