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Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112.
Where did you get those figures ? I ask because the U.K. alone in in 2010 had 138 so your numbers do not add up. That is another reason why debate between gun advocates and gun control people go nowhere . You take numbers you pull out of the air and decide to enter into a supposed logic fueled debate . Are you counting suicides/accidents or just homicide ? Twisting statistics to fit your argument is one thing but flat out fabrications leave zero room for constructive conversation.
It was a quote from a television program that is obviously hyperbolic but the point it's trying to make is clear.
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I posted the statistics on our murder rate, which is a function of every 100,000 people, so it doesn't matter how big the country is... simple fact is that we are 3 or 4 times more than almost everybody, except Japan, we are 14 times more than them
yebat' Putin
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Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112.
Where did you get those figures ? I ask because the U.K. alone in in 2010 had 138 so your numbers do not add up. That is another reason why debate between gun advocates and gun control people go nowhere . You take numbers you pull out of the air and decide to enter into a supposed logic fueled debate . Are you counting suicides/accidents or just homicide ? Twisting statistics to fit your argument is one thing but flat out fabrications leave zero room for constructive conversation.
It was a quote from a television program that is obviously hyperbolic but the point it's trying to make is clear.
Thank you, that was my intention. I deleted the quote since people were arguing the numbers, not the intention.
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just figure out how to fix the problem.
How do you fix crazy ?
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I'm anti-killing a bunch of innocent kids with guns.....
You would be hard pressed to find anyone that isn't .
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You would be hard pressed to find anyone that isn't .
And if you do ... please have them committed immediately.
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I would be curious if statistics were kept on knife murders around the world . I would bet that we top that category as well . Death by beating ? Same assumption .Point is we are a very, very violent country and always have been . If Americans are good at nothing else we have murder and mayhem down to a science .
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If Americans are good at nothing else we have murder and mayhem down to a science .
And unfortunately some people like to wear that as a badge of pride.
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I'm anti-killing a bunch of innocent kids with guns.....
You would be hard pressed to find anyone that isn't .
I would be against that as well.
I have several semi auto weapons, in hand guns and 1 rifle. I don't go off killing people, and there are millions upon millions of people in this country just like me.
But, we need to ban semi auto weapons for millions because of a few shootings? (and again, I do NOT mean to belittle the deaths, at all.)
I have spoken with the sheriff in my county. I was told that at any point in time, the deputy's might be - MIGHT be - 20 minutes away from my house if I ever needed them. Yes, there might me 1 deputy only 1 minute away as well.
Someone breaks into my house, with a gun, or knife.....what am I supposed to do? Call 911 and give the intruder a cookie and ask him to wait? Or call 911 and say "there's a guy in my house, I have a gun, get here as soon as you can - I will NOT let him harm me or my wife or daughter."
Banning guns takes that option away from me, while it does nothing to affect the criminal.
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Banning guns takes that option away from me, while it does nothing to affect the criminal.
Banning guns is not what is being talked about !!! Just the machine guns that these disturbed gun owners use in mass murders .
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I would be against that as well.
I have several semi auto weapons, in hand guns and 1 rifle. I don't go off killing people, and there are millions upon millions of people in this country just like me.
But, we need to ban semi auto weapons for millions because of a few shootings? (and again, I do NOT mean to belittle the deaths, at all.)
Someone breaks into my house, with a gun, or knife.....what am I supposed to do? Call 911 and give the intruder a cookie and ask him to wait? Or call 911 and say "there's a guy in my house, I have a gun, get here as soon as you can - I will NOT let him harm me or my wife or daughter."
Banning guns takes that option away from me, while it does nothing to affect the criminal.
So what is your plan Arch? To grab a semi-automatic weapon, go unload the clip on the intruder, go back for another semi-automatic, unload that clip, then go back for the rifle? Or are you going to go all Rambo style and cross the rifles across your back and go semi-auto in each hand down the stairs to look for a potential intruder?
If you just enjoy playing with guns, then defend your right to own a bunch of different guns for fun.
If you enjoy hunting, then defend your right to own guns for hunting.
If you want self-defense then defend your right to own guns for self-defense...
But don't tell me you have a small arsenal then tell me you need it to defend yourself against an intruder.... Any old shotgun or any old pistol would pretty much serve that purpose...
yebat' Putin
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Banning guns takes that option away from me, while it does nothing to affect the criminal.
Banning guns is not what is being talked about !!! Just the machine guns that these disturbed gun owners use in mass murders .
Agreed. I don't think anyone on here is for a full-on ban of any and all guns. I do believe that people should have a right to self-defense weapons such as handguns and shotguns and for sporting weapons such as a hunting rifle. But a weapon capable of letting out 900 rounds per minute is not a self-defense weapon, it is a weapon designed to kill large groups of people quickly and efficiently. I don't find it unreasonable to ban these sorts of weapons, stop production of them, and phase them out, while allowing perfectly normal people to keep weapons in case they ever do need them for self-protection. But there is a huge chasm between a handgun and a weapon that can shoot up to 900 rounds per minute, and I think it's a reasonable discussion on how we close that chasm.
![[Linked Image from i190.photobucket.com]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z33/booger52/phpGGRdhwAM.jpg)
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Thank you. If a semi-auto can be bought and turned into a full on 900-round-per-minute gun with simple steps found on the internet, then make it so that can't be done..... either fix the gun so you can't do that any more or don't make and sell the gun. Pretty simple.
yebat' Putin
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Who has converted one of these "machine guns" to full auto and used it?
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Lol actually I was being sarcastic . I am a huge gun proponent and have a not so small arsenal of various weapons both for hunting and otherwise . I would be open to some further restrictions on assault style weapons and even in favor of restricting magazine capacity for these weapons again not that I think it would matter when / if a lunatic decides to prey upon the smallest and most helpless among us.
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Who has converted one of these "machine guns" to full auto and used it?
I have no idea... do we have to wait for somebody to use it before we deem it a bad idea?
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It is a bad idea, and it is a federal offense. I thought someone was implying that is what happened at one of these shootings. As far as I know this has not happened or been used to commit a mass murder.
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Who has converted one of these "machine guns" to full auto and used it?
I have no idea... do we have to wait for somebody to use it before we deem it a bad idea?
DC, you are just making strong post after strong post here. I can't agree with you more on everything you are saying. The other arguments just have too many flaws.
I realize everyone has strong emotions and opinions at the moment but your logic is absolutely spot on.
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*In Baker we trust*
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either fix the gun so you can't do that any more or don't make and sell the gun.
Using that logic why do we have cars that go faster than 65 mph ?
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It is a bad idea, and it is a federal offense. I thought someone was implying that is what happened at one of these shootings. As far as I know this has not happened or been used to commit a mass murder.
I will state for the record again and anybody joining in late. I'm not a gun control nut. Dealing with the gun side of these shootings and our murder rate is only a part, we also have to deal with the people side... we have weapons, we have people using weapons... if we don't open up the conversation on how to improve both, then we are missing out....
Pointing the finger and saying "It wasn't the guns fault" or "my gun never killed anybody" or "if they didn't have a gun they would have used a knife" after innocent people are shot really doesn't seem like a productive approach.
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I do think rifles like the one used Friday should be illegal. I don't think citizens should be allowed to own one of those.
So if it was a bolt action rifle or a pump shotgun nobody would have been killed?
Of course not and that's not at all what he said. I guarantee you,, someone would have been killed, But not 27. 2, 3, maybe 5 or 6. But not 27,.
Can anyone that is a gun guy or gal give me ONE SOLID reason why then need semi and totally automatic weapons in their homes?
I'm not a gun guy, I admit to not understanding the culture, so I'm not trying to be a wise guy here, I just don't get why they are needed?
I mean, is it one of those things like "mines bigger than yours" or is it, "I can't shoot straight, so I need something that spreads a load of bullets out in a hurry in the general area of what I'm shooting at" ?
What value is there in owning these guns.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Can anyone that is a gun guy or gal give me ONE SOLID reason why then need semi and totally automatic weapons in their homes?
Daman not to keep beating a dead horse but totally automatic weapons are very highly regulated and not available to the general public. You need to understand that the verbiage you use while unimportant and beside the point to you can be a sticking point in the conversation. To answer you question as to a need for owning a high capacity large caliber semiautomatic assault style weapon capable of 900 rpm ? There is none other than that specific person wants to own one .
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I would assume that part of it is like owning a 500 HP sportscar, or a gigantic SUV. It's not for need, but for the pride of ownership.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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JC.. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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either fix the gun so you can't do that any more or don't make and sell the gun.
Using that logic why do we have cars that go faster than 65 mph ?
To drive on the Ohio turnpike?
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do you know what I get from that chart? this is really an American problem. not just an USA problem or North American problem, but a North & South full-on American problem.
Amazing how many countries in the America's are on that list compared to the other continents of the world. I wonder how much that has to do with the drug trade from South through North America?
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either fix the gun so you can't do that any more or don't make and sell the gun.
Using that logic why do we have cars that go faster than 65 mph ?
Some states have speed limits that go over 65... why do we have street cars that go 165? Good question.
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either fix the gun so you can't do that any more or don't make and sell the gun.
Using that logic why do we have cars that go faster than 65 mph ?
Some states have speed limits that go over 65... why do we have street cars that go 165? Good question.
and, regardless of what a car "can" go it is very possible to have a microchip put in them to govern their speed to the speed limit based on GPS of the car's current location.
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Can anyone that is a gun guy or gal give me ONE SOLID reason why then need semi and totally automatic weapons in their homes?
Daman not to keep beating a dead horse but totally automatic weapons are very highly regulated and not available to the general public. You need to understand that the verbiage you use while unimportant and beside the point to you can be a sticking point in the conversation. To answer you question as to a need for owning a high capacity large caliber semiautomatic assault style weapon capable of 900 rpm ? There is none other than that specific person wants to own one .
while your point may be valid about the totally automatic weapons being highly regulated, you fail to mention the ease with which a semi automatic weapon can be converted to fully automatic.
Thus negating the entire argument about Automatic weapons being highly regulated.
I mean, I did a quick check on the internet,, (remember, I know nothing about guns) but I found that there were kits for all kinda guns that turn them from Semi to full auto.
And the damn things are expensive so all in all, if I want a full auto, I buy a semi that can be converted, by the kit and bingo bango,, I got a fully automatic weapon.
So, if people only want one because they want one, then whats wrong with banning them?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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either fix the gun so you can't do that any more or don't make and sell the gun.
Using that logic why do we have cars that go faster than 65 mph ?
Some states have speed limits that go over 65... why do we have street cars that go 165? Good question.
and, regardless of what a car "can" go it is very possible to have a microchip put in them to govern their speed to the speed limit based on GPS of the car's current location.
And I fully expect that to be considered in the not too distant future, considering we are many years away from cars that drive themselves... we will either have chips that regulate max speed or we will have insurance companies that want to put those devices in your car that track your driving habits and if you are consistently over the speed limit, your rates will go up.
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insurance companies are way smarter than that. if you drive the speed limit or under consistently, then you rates will go down
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insurance companies are way smarter than that. if you drive the speed limit or under consistently, then you rates will go down
Touche. 
yebat' Putin
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Can anyone that is a gun guy or gal give me ONE SOLID reason why then need semi and totally automatic weapons in their homes?
(Since automatic weapons are unobtainable, I'll answer your question only considering semi-automatic weapons.)
Because I want the most effective method possible to stop someone from doing harm to me or my family. With a semi-auto, you only have to flip the safety, point, and start pulling the trigger. It's something my wife can use under stess. (She's not at all into guns, but she'd shoot an intruder if necessary). My home defense weapons are a semi-auto shotgun and semi-auto handguns. I also have a pump shotgun at the ready. My concealed carry weapon of choice is a compact semi-auto handgun that holds 12 rounds. Given the purpose and limits of concealed carry, I feel that is the most effective tool available.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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Can anyone that is a gun guy or gal give me ONE SOLID reason why then need semi and totally automatic weapons in their homes?
Daman not to keep beating a dead horse but totally automatic weapons are very highly regulated and not available to the general public. You need to understand that the verbiage you use while unimportant and beside the point to you can be a sticking point in the conversation. To answer you question as to a need for owning a high capacity large caliber semiautomatic assault style weapon capable of 900 rpm ? There is none other than that specific person wants to own one .
while your point may be valid about the totally automatic weapons being highly regulated, you fail to mention the ease with which a semi automatic weapon can be converted to fully automatic.
Thus negating the entire argument about Automatic weapons being highly regulated.
I mean, I did a quick check on the internet,, (remember, I know nothing about guns) but I found that there were kits for all kinda guns that turn them from Semi to full auto.
And the damn things are expensive so all in all, if I want a full auto, I buy a semi that can be converted, by the kit and bingo bango,, I got a fully automatic weapon.
So, if people only want one because they want one, then whats wrong with banning them?
Go buy a semi auto and convert it to a full auto. At that point in time, I do beliefe you are a felon unless you are licensed by the federal gov't for the most part. (like, a licensed collector - it's not easy to get that license, and it's not cheap)
Plus, I myself have not heard of any people using full auto guns for committing crimes. I don't believe even the 2 guys that robbed the bank in LA years back had full auto, although I may be wrong.
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I would be against that as well.
I have several semi auto weapons, in hand guns and 1 rifle. I don't go off killing people, and there are millions upon millions of people in this country just like me.
But, we need to ban semi auto weapons for millions because of a few shootings? (and again, I do NOT mean to belittle the deaths, at all.)
Someone breaks into my house, with a gun, or knife.....what am I supposed to do? Call 911 and give the intruder a cookie and ask him to wait? Or call 911 and say "there's a guy in my house, I have a gun, get here as soon as you can - I will NOT let him harm me or my wife or daughter."
Banning guns takes that option away from me, while it does nothing to affect the criminal.
So what is your plan Arch? To grab a semi-automatic weapon, go unload the clip on the intruder, go back for another semi-automatic, unload that clip, then go back for the rifle?
No. Plus, I don't have any guns that take clips. They take magazines, but that's a moot point. I know what you're saying by "clips".
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Or are you going to go all Rambo style and cross the rifles across your back and go semi-auto in each hand down the stairs to look for a potential intruder?
No. But you do have a great imagination.
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If you just enjoy playing with guns, then defend your right to own a bunch of different guns for fun.
My bad. I didn't think I needed to defend my right to own guns, the constitution does it for me. But, since you asked, first of all, I don't "play" with guns. I do, however, shoot guns. In my backyard, or while hunting. I see no problem with that, do you?
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If you enjoy hunting, then defend your right to own guns for hunting.
I enjoy hunting. I have a right to hunt. Yes, I have 3 different shotguns I can use to hunt deer. One is a semi auto, one is a single shot, and one is a pump. For deer, I prefer the pump (Benelli Nova 12 gauge), because it is more accurate for me. That does not mean I need to or should get rid of the other shot guns.
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If you want self-defense then defend your right to own guns for self-defense...
Again, I have a constitutional right to own guns for self protection/self defense. I have several for that purpose as well. For me, I choose to keep handy a semi auto handgun. I do think I have that right.
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But don't tell me you have a small arsenal then tell me you need it to defend yourself against an intruder.... Any old shotgun or any old pistol would pretty much serve that purpose...
Interesting choice of words....the "..don't tell me you have a small arsenal....".What is an "arsenal, really? Is it 2 guns? Is it 10 guns? Is it 20 guns? Or is "arsenal" just a buzzword for you?
See, I like to hunt, and I have hunting specific guns. I like to plink, and I have plinking specific guns. I like to think I have home defense weapons, and I also have self protection weapons.
Some of those are semi auto. Why would you want to ban any of my hunting or home defense or self protection guns? How would that benefit you, or society?
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Can anyone that is a gun guy or gal give me ONE SOLID reason why then need semi and totally automatic weapons in their homes?
As arch said, fully auto are illegal, so lawful owners don't have them or want them as it risks taking away your right to other firearms if caught.
semi-auto, that even technically includes a revolver since you pull the trigger it fires, and on release rotates the next round into the chamber ready to fire.
When someone breaks into my home, I don't want to have to pack powder and a musket ball down the barrel of my gun before I can defend my family. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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J / C....
Driving back and forth from Canton to Ghent rd and back.. I saw many flags at half staff... seeing that... nothing really mattered to me more..then the victims and their families..
Take a moment to reflect...
We are so lucky to still be able to bicker over our opinions...
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j/c Wow... A Utah sixth-grader, who told classmates he was encouraged by his parents to bring a gun to school after the Connecticut school shooting, was apprehended by teachers after he was found with an unloaded .22-caliber handgun, Fox13Now.com reported. The unidentified student, described in the report as an 11-year-old boy, reportedly pulled the gun from his backpack during recess Monday at West Kearns Elementary School, which is in a suburb of Salt Lake City. Isabel Rios, a fellow sixth-grader, said the boy pointed the gun at her head and said he was going to kill her, the report said. Students did not immediately alert teachers about the gun. A district spokesman told the station that once teachers were alerted, the student was "apprehended in 30 to 45 seconds" and brought to the principal's office. Some parents were not satisfied with the school's response. "There was no lockdown. No one was called. Nothing was done. And then we had to hear it from our kids," said John Klaus, a father of a student at the school. The school administrators, for their part, said there was no lockdown because the situation was resolved quickly and they did not want to startle students. Police were investigating to determine what role, if any, the boy's parents may have had in the incident. The student was taken to a juvenile hall. He may face criminal charges and/or expulsion from the school. Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/uta.../#ixzz2FSnZH5V3
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What I'd like to know is what laws, bans, etc that are being proposed would have prevented last weeks shooting?
An assault weapon ban didn't prevent columbine from happening. I'm all for finding ways to prevent these shootings from happening again, but making laws for the heck of it don't accomplish much. Especially when criminals have the tendency to not follow the law.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
Quote:
but making laws for the heck of it don't accomplish much. Especially when criminals have the tendency to not follow the law.
Seriously, that's your logic for not wanting any law.....that the criminals won't obey it? 
And here I thought a law was enacted to prevent something/help solve a problem and to set a penalty for violation of that law.
To me, no matter what your political persuasion a couple things in the gun control debate are self evident truths.....
1. Handguns have one over-riding purpose - To kill another human being.
2. No one needs an assault weapon. See #1.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,246
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,246 |
I am reading through this thread right now for the first time and I am moved to say that this has to be the best thread I have read on here perhaps since I first started coming here many moons ago. If not the best, one of the best. Just great posts after great posts.
DC in particular with a response to another great post by KingSteve.
This tragedy just breaks my heart. There is a picture of a line of kids being walked out by a teacher, there is a young girl, gray pants, light blue shirt, dark hair . . . the look on her face just chokes me up . . .
As tragic as this shooting is, I am sorry--I don't mean to offend anyone here--but why in the HELL does it take something like this for the adults in this country (speaking of course of the R and D and our vaunted media) to think that now is the right time to talk about guns?
Every day black males are shooting black males, everyday there are gun related, drug related shootings that may or may not result in a death . . . why has there been so little discussion on a national level about that? We had what, 11,000 plus homicides a year, whereby a firearm (I think handguns where the preferred weapon) were used and only now, after Newton, people in Congress want to talk about guns?
I just can't help but feel that the discussion around gun control will revolve around banning sizes of clips, length of barrel, length of grip, etc., etc., as if, in the end that will be the difference maker in the above stat. We will ban certain ASPECTS of guns rather than the gun itself, AND we will not even remotely talk about why someone would use the gun in the first place! If this Lanza fella walked into the school with a blunderbuss and a revolver, I wouldn't feel the least bit better about it if the body count was any less. Death is death.
I don't believe any discussion about gun banning is going to solve the problem unless they talk about banning a whole class of weapon (like handguns [which will never happen]) and it is matched with addressing societal issues like gangs, drugs, and mental health deficiencies.
And in speaking of mental health, I know many insurance companies don't cover or offer very poor coverage in regards to treatment of, does Obamacare address that? I don't know.
I am very choked about this, thanks for reading my post, I look forward to reading more of what you all have to say.
thanks.
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Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Another School Shooting !!!
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