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It will get ugly. But then we will just fire everyone and start over.
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How in the Hell can you expect accountability for actions when they haven't even made one single hire yet? 
Faith and trust are earned, not given. And you well know I'm expecting accountability in their moves going forward. ie.... Who they hire as coach, how much meddling Haslam does, draft picks, etc......
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Yet you'll crucify them at every turn without ever giving them a chance to earn an ounce of your faith.
Yeah, that's mighty fair of you.
When you look at certain situations, you can see obvious reason for doubt. Ignoring those situations just to go "rah,rah" is a fools game I've seen played out over and over again.
Please tell me how Banner and Haslam being a part of "a draft consensus" gives you faith in the draft process and why?
What draft experience do either of these men bring to the table? Why would any normal person not question this and be concerned such a scenario?
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'Peen is right. You're whining. And he's your friend. He means it. 
Like you whined about Holmgren so early on? Like you whined about the Weeden pick early on?
Nah. Just because I don't put blind faith in people that appear to be underqualified for some of the duties they seem to wish to take on here, means I am concerned about the obvious and expect accountability in their moves going forward. It means I have reasons to doubt them and not to trust their viability to carry out those duties.
If you all you have is finger pointing and accusations rather than something to counter my concerns, you'll have to do a lot better than that. But as everyone can see, you really haven't made any points to counter my concerns.
That in itself speaks volumes.....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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How in the Hell can you expect accountability for actions when they haven't even made one single hire yet?
Faith and trust are earned, not given. And you well know I'm expecting accountability in their moves going forward. ie.... Who they hire as coach, how much meddling Haslam does, draft picks, etc......
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Yet you'll crucify them at every turn without ever giving them a chance to earn an ounce of your faith.
Yeah, that's mighty fair of you.
When you look at certain situations, you can see obvious reason for doubt. Ignoring those situations just to go "rah,rah" is a fools game I've seen played out over and over again.
Please tell me how Banner and Haslam being a part of "a draft consensus" gives you faith in the draft process and why?
What draft experience do either of these men bring to the table? Why would any normal person not question this and be concerned such a scenario?
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'Peen is right. You're whining. And he's your friend. He means it.
Like you whined about Holmgren so early on? Like you whined about the Weeden pick early on?
Nah. Just because I don't put blind faith in people that appear to be underqualified for some of the duties they seem to wish to take on here, means I am concerned about the obvious and expect accountability in their moves going forward. It means I have reasons to doubt them and not to trust their viability to carry out those duties.
If you all you have is finger pointing and accusations rather than something to counter my concerns, you'll have to do a lot better than that. But as everyone can see, you really haven't made any points to counter my concerns.
That in itself speaks volumes.....
If the Browns go to the Superbowl every year for the next 10 years Pit will still complain that we did win by enough points or say something to be critical of Joe of Jimmy.  He just dislikes them and nothing they can do will ever change that. Its sad really but to each his own.
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Faith and trust are earned, not given.
Maybe this is why you and I disagree on so many of these topics.. faith and trust are given.. from that point they are either reinforced or they are lost. Going into every situation assuming you can't trust somebody until they prove themselves just seems like a bad way to establish relationships...
yebat' Putin
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But Haslam put up a Billion (that's with a B) and we know he's not an idiot as proven by his success in other fields and we know he probably learned a lot from the Rooneys so I guess I'm willing to wait and see what happens.
Which kind of leads to my concern. Yes he did own about 10% of the Steelers. And yes, I'm sure he has had some experience learning some from the Rooney family. But my question is just how much did he learn?
He himself says on one hand he "has a lot to learn", then turns around and Banner claims the draft picks will be a "consensus" that will include both he and Haslam. That seems like a pretty big contradiction to me.
And while I've looked around, I haven't been able to find anything showing Banner had any direct involvement in Philly regarding being involved in the draft process.
Yet another point I'm concerned about...... Haslam as I said did invest in the Steelers for a period of four years total, but during that time was a full time CEO who concentrated most of his efforts in Flying J, not the Steelers. His involvement with them was more of a part time venture. So considering it was a part time, four year experience thing, does that exude confidence from anyone that owning the Browns isn't more an on the job training thing than an actual owner with the proper experience under his belt?
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So much depends on who they hire. Bring in the right guys in Coaching and Personnel and make a few changes on the field and yeah, this could be fun.
To me, that will be the first indicator. That, and once he brings them here, will he and Banner back off enough to let them do their jobs without constant interferance.
The jury is out but I'm very concerned by what they've said and want to see some evidence that will calm my concerns... For all of us....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Maybe this is why you and I disagree on so many of these topics.. faith and trust are given.. from that point they are either reinforced or they are lost. Going into every situation assuming you can't trust somebody until they prove themselves just seems like a bad way to establish relationships...
Not necassarly. I actually had some confidence in Holmgren when he came here. He had somewhat of a pedigree that gave me cause to be optimistic. Along came Heckert who also had a resume' that gave me some cause for optimism.
So much of it has to do with the situation. In this case, I see a guy in Banner who plans to take on things in which he really has no previous experience in (drafting) and a part time former minority owner who also plans to have involvement in things he really has no experience at.
The difference is in the former case I had reason to be cautiously optimistic based on the circumstances. In this case I feel the need to proceed with extreme caution.
I hope I'm dead wrong and will be overjoyed if I am. Yet at the same time, I've seen people come here with much better pedigrees that have done very little to help our plight.
It could be that I'm simply suffering of shell shock from 14 years of grief. But you must admit, we have had people much better qualified that simply did not produce here.
And if you would, could you tell me exactly what experience that Banner and Haslam have at the NFL draft that gives you cause for optimism knowing that their say so needs to be given to have a "consensus" in the war room on draft day?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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So considering it was a part time, four year experience thing, does that exude confidence from anyone that owning the Browns isn't more an on the job training thing than an actual owner with the proper experience under his belt?
Pit, name me one owner who purchased a team with actual professional football ownership experience under his belt? Nobody has it, it's not something you can have until you own a team and get to make the decisions.. Jerry Jones (oil prospecting guy) never had it, Daniel Snyder (attorney) never had it, Jerry Richardson (he owned fast food restaurants) never had it, Wayne Weaver of Jacksonville didn't have it (he owned shoe stores), Bob McNair (Power plant guy) of the Texans never had it...
There is one way to have experience when you become owner of an NFL team.. and that's to do it the way the Rooneys did and be born into it and get to grow up in it... every other owner makes their money in business and then buys a team, just like Haslam did...
So what will his role be on draft day? I have no idea.. I hope it's to sit back and watch and ask questions and provide input and not throw down the gauntlet on who he wants.. if he does that, we will be in trouble.. heck we might only win 4 or 5 games...
yebat' Putin
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If the Browns go to the Superbowl every year for the next 10 years Pit will still complain that we did win by enough points or say something to be critical of Joe of Jimmy. He just dislikes them and nothing they can do will ever change that. Its sad really but to each his own.
Yes those great points you made to address the obvious concerns I brought up have added so much to the forum.
Thanks for that insight and all of the things you have shown to address these things.
That's all ya got? Finger pointing and accusations?
Try this on for size....... Actually try to show what experience either Banner or Haslam have in an NFL draft war room that shouldn't make the fan base concerned about this and quit spouting off like some kindegarden kid.
 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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So what will his role be on draft day? I have no idea.. I hope it's to sit back and watch and ask questions and provide input and not throw down the gauntlet on who he wants.. if he does that, we will be in trouble.. heck we might only win 4 or 5 games...
And where is Jacksonville at right now? How long did it take Snyder to realise/learn how to make a team find success? He didn't buy the Redskins until 1999 and look at how terrible they were. Jerry Jones bought a dynasty to begin with and now isn't even the best team in Texas.
What we do know is that owners who have no experience don't do well to start off in most cases unless they already buy a dynasty or let football people actually run the team.
We also know Haslam actually said he would be "hands on". We also know that, at least as far as I can find, neither Banner nor Haslam have any draft day experience and they will be a part of the "consensus" on draft day.
Now in knowing these things, I find cause for concern. If you don't I really have no issue with that. We each have the right to differing opinions. But I'm hoping to see things evelove that show I have no reason for these concerns.
I do believe in what has been said we do have cause for such concerns. It appears from the way it has been described that these two must be in agreement on draft day and that Haslam plans to be "hands on", we may yet be in for several more years much like we have already seen. (Your Dan Snyder example fits here)
I will be happy to no end if I'm wrong here. And I'm not predicting it will go this way. But I have reason to believe, based on their omments, that it could easily be the likely outcome.
If you see it otherwise I have no problem with that. But I'd really be interested in what evidence you have that would instill in confidence to the contrary.....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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And where is Jacksonville at right now?
They are horrible... that's not the point.
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How long did it take Snyder to realise/learn how to make a team find success?
I'm still not sure he knows, but he hired shanahan and drafted RGIII... and now he's a genius.
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Jerry Jones bought a dynasty to begin with and now isn't even the best team in Texas.
Jerry Jones bought a team that had 1 winning season in 5 years, was coming off a 3 win season and within 3 years rebuilt a dynasty with a college coach with no NFL experience who replaced a legend
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Now in knowing these things, I find cause for concern. If you don't I really have no issue with that.
Oh I'm concerned.. but at the end of the day, I could type on here until my fingers bleed and its not going to change anything.. not a damn thing I can do about it... See, as of now, I have not been invited into the war room on draft day to offer my own opinion... So my point is not that you are concerned, it is that concern appears to have morphed into obsession.... and when you obsess over something you cannot control, that's just unhealthy.
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If you see it otherwise I have no problem with that. But I'd really be interested in what evidence you have that would instill in confidence to the contrary.....
I have no confidence... none, zilch, zero, nada.... if the last 40 years have taught me anything, it's that with the Browns, the more things change the more they stay the same... Why should I believe that this regime has what it takes to turn this ship around? I have just reached a point in my life where I'm going to talk about it and enjoy it but I'm not going to obsess or lose sleep over things totally outside of my control... I'll prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
yebat' Putin
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Oh I'm not obseed about it. Heck, I'm not on here nearly as often as I used to be. LOL But right or wrong, when this all plays out, I want everyone to remember and know where I stood on this entire thing. Snyder bought the team in 1999. So after 11 years, he's gotten some success. Jacksonville has pretty much gone nowhere. Yes you do have one lone acception to the rule. But that doesn't really make the odds good for us regarding some quick turn around. But when looking at your last paragraph? It kinda looks like you aren't really giving them that "faith" you spoke about earlier. Just sayin'
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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If the Browns go to the Superbowl every year for the next 10 years Pit will still complain that we did win by enough points or say something to be critical of Joe of Jimmy. He just dislikes them and nothing they can do will ever change that. Its sad really but to each his own.
Yes those great points you made to address the obvious concerns I brought up have added so much to the forum.
Thanks for that insight and all of the things you have shown to address these things.
That's all ya got? Finger pointing and accusations?
Try this on for size....... Actually try to show what experience either Banner or Haslam have in an NFL draft war room that shouldn't make the fan base concerned about this and quit spouting off like some kindegarden kid.
First off you are taking a simple statement that Jimmy wants to be involved and turned into this reality in your mind that he is going to be picking players, watching film and over ruling his entire scouting team. He has said if the coach they hire has a strong player personal side they would be heavily involved. If not they would hire a strong GM. I read into his statement that he wants to be in the mix since it is money, his team and therefore all the blame lays at his door. As an owner I would want to be involved and hear arguments from my staff since he is the one again who is responsible for the success of failure of this team. He is the type of owner who wants people around him that will not be yes men. Does he bring "football" experience to the table? No. Is football only about catching the ball etc? No. This game has evolved into a game of intelligence, decision making, and mental toughness. Many of the things he deals with in the private sector. He does not have high turnover in upper management of his business because he has learned how to evaluate people's mental aptitude. By the way this is one thing that the Patriots look for in layers as well and it has served them well. Raw talent is great but if your dumber than a box of rocks you will never understand films and be able to process this information during game day. As far as Joe he did a pretty job of hiring an unknown Andy Reid in Philly who had a very strong GM until he proved he was ready and able to take over. Did Joe have his regrets in Philly? Yes. Did he learn from them? He said he did and tried to make them right. I do not know about you but I have changed a lot over 17 years. My management style has changed over the years as I learn from my mistakes and adopt that style to the people under me. Again Joe saying he wants final say over the draft is based on who they hire. Does he want to have a say or be involved? Yes for the same reason as the owner. Its their responsibility so they want to sign off on things.
My point is your not happy that a non football guy bought a team and brought in a non football guy to run the business. Well since we came back all we had was football guys to run everything and they failed. Jimmy and Joe never said they want to be on the sidelines coaching or telling the coach/GM who to draft. If that was the case they could save a ton of money and just appoint themselves to that role. Show me a business owner who has a management team that makes all the major decisions of his business without consulting him and I will show you a owner who is a fool.
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My point is your not happy that a non football guy bought a team and brought in a non football guy to run the business. Well since we came back all we had was football guys to run everything and they failed. Jimmy and Joe never said they want to be on the sidelines coaching or telling the coach/GM who to draft. If that was the case they could save a ton of money and just appoint themselves to that role.
Jimmy Haslam
(On who sets the vision for the kind of team they want)- “I think it’s collaborative. We want an individual who is a head coach, who is a strong leader, who’s tough because this is a tough business, but also is smart, very organized, has great attention to detail and is aggressive. That’s the kind of football team we want to have, and candidly, I think it’s the kind of individuals we are.”
Joe Banner
(On his role with being involved in the draft)- “As we’ve said before, we’re going to put together a team. It’s going to include Jimmy and myself, the head coach, again either director of player personnel or general manager. We’re going to work collaboratively. We’re going to have primary responsibilities with different people depending upon their strengths and weaknesses. Our goal will be to generate consensus on as many decisions as we possibly can. Frankly sometimes we can’t generate consensus. ‘Should we go after that player?’ If we don’t have consensus, maybe that means we shouldn’t.
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I don't know what part of that you're missing here. What bothers me is according to this, half of the brain trust in the war room on draft day has zero NFL drafting experience.
That combined with the fact it was said that if this "collaberation" doesn't all agree, they most likely wouldn't draft that player. Isn't that the very definition of final say?
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Show me a business owner who has a management team that makes all the major decisions of his business without consulting him and I will show you a owner who is a fool.
Show me people who try to take over functions within an organization they have zero experience at without hiring people that they have the faith in to carry out the duties they have all the experience at and I'll show you someone that will take a long time to succeed.
It's funny how you ignore that on one hand Haslam states as fact "He's got a lot to learn". And then hires someone with zero draft experience and throws them both into the mix in the war room. That person turns around and states that everyone must be in agreement on who they draft or they probably shouldn't draft them.
I see a problem with that. If you don't, so be it. Now in Haslams first press conference he seemed to concentrate a lot of his comments centered around "marketing". Here's another comment you may wish to consider......
Jimmy Haslam
(On if the team has the personnel to be a playoff team next year)- “It might be a little unfair for me to put that pressure on that new coach already. Let’s face it, the way the NFL operates, there is relative parity, and you can turn things around quickly. You’re looking at two of the most impatient people in the world up here on stage, but I’ll reiterate what I said. The key is to get it right, where we’re good over a long period of time and where people expect the Cleveland Browns to be in the playoffs every year. We want to still be preparing for games in January and not packing up and sending everybody home. That’s the goal to do it that way.”
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This basicly is giving a built in excuse already in not making the playoffs next year. It's saying the exact same thing we've been told over and over again. It's saying that we're starting from scratch yet again and it may take time.................once again.
And there really isn't any truth in what you're saying about "football people" not being successful. Holmgren plainly stated he had a five year plan. A lot of good talent is now in place and neither you nor anyone else can say with any certainty where we would have been if he and Heckert had been given two more years.
And BTW- If we are successful in two more years with the bulk of the existing talent being used to achieve that success, do you plan to give Haslam and Banner all the credit for what that talent accomplishes?
My concern isn't with Haslam buying the team. My concern is the fact that it seems most every critical decision must be a "consensus" and "collaberative".
I've seen successful businesses too. And most of them got that way by having an owner who hired people he felt confident in doing their jobs and deligating authority to them to do their jobs. Not by micro-managing everything.
So I'm not trying to hate on anybody, however, if this is some formula you trust, have at it. But if half of the war room has zero drafting experience and yet they have to agree to the picks, that in and of itself is giving the ones with zero experience the final say. No matter if you wish to admit it or not.
So let's not jump to conclusions here. It's not that I don't like Haslam. I haven't trusted Banner from day 1. I stated he wanted control over a lot. That point was argued too. Now we see he does. So my problem lies with the formula they are using more than anything else.
BTW- In your "management style", do you ever use paragraphs? I was in management for decades and found it a very helpfull tool. Just sayin'
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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But when looking at your last paragraph? It kinda looks like you aren't really giving them that "faith" you spoke about earlier. Just sayin'
When did I speak of having faith in our new ownership to be an immediate success?
yebat' Putin
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You actually left the door open on exactly what you meant accept to say it is given, not earned. IMO there is only one instance that is true. And that isn't anythng in the Browns FO.
When you fail to quantify things it lends itself to interpritation. So could you give me some kind of timetable as to when the "faith for success" actually kicks in. Year, 3, year 5 or simply.... eventually?
And just to clarify, I'm not saying they can't or won't succeed. Yet I'm very leery that they will any time soon. I have given reasons as to why which although m,any have commented we should just "give them a chance", nobody seems to have anything to counter the fact that half of the brain trust in the draft room has no real experience in doing it and yet they want a concensus.
Are you saying this doesn't concern you? And if not why do you have "faith" that such an obscure formula will work?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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