DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum ESPN QB rankings

I figered he'd be near the last....but not last. Oh well.

I've been saying, he's behind a bad line but he still has to make plays. Its his job to make quicker reads and know the situation. If its not there, start running. I've been seeing a guy who doesn't want to throw it when he has to and looking over his shoulder for the DE. I think he's got the rest of the season to battle through this and get scores. If he keeps playing like last week, forget it, I'll be rooting for a QB in round 1. If he can show at least some progress, I'll continue to back him. Its his job to lose and he's losing it.

I think McNair and Vick are to high,while Bulger should move up.

I agree Ben should be 31 and the only thing not keeping him at that point is passing yardage,which is useless in this situation. He's thrown 5 int. in the red zone,9 int. in the 4th quarter so i doubt anyone has that many picks late. He also has had 6 TDs dropped and two fumbles by WRs near the goal line.

While Ben's protection scheme broke down,he failed to throw to the "hot" read a number of times. Along with his inability to recognize a few of the blitz schemes,the underlying culprit is his slow release.Sometimes you just have to throw it away and wait for another series.

Big players make big plays in big games. Hence why I'll bet on Vince Young and Troy Smith (National Championship game pending) will becoming huge stars.

The list is bogus. I agree w/very few of the rankings other than the top 3. Phillip Rivers and Tony Roma ahead of Brees. LMAO

The ranking is closer to ranking the teams than it is the quarterbacks.

On to Charlie........I think I'm fairly neutral w/Charlie. I don't say he stinks and is the cause of our problems, and I don't say he is blameless. I do want to look at what ESPN said about him:


1. Four disasterous interceptions? Wasn't one a hail mary at the end of the half? Wasn't another when Edwards didn't finish his route? Please, whoever wrote this didn't even watch the game. But, of course, he knows more than we do. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

2. Hurries his throws? Gee, I thought you guys said he holds on to the ball too long??????? <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

3. His protection breaks down. Yep, that is a good reason to rank him last.

4. His receivers gripe too much. Again, that's Charlie's fault.

5. Hard to tell if he is getting better. Why not? You think the team around him might influence his play?

Get the [censored] outta here! Charlie has problems, but this article is BS!

Charlie's problems. He isn't accurate. He does hold the ball too long. He appears to struggle somewhat at reading defenses.

However, he is hindered greatly by the talent around him. It's funny how many of you who defended the Timid one are Charlie's harshest critics. Where are all those reasons now? And CF ain't even close to being as putrid as Timid. I laugh my ass off when some who blasted the OL during those years are claiming Charlie holds the ball too long. LMAO! It ain't even close between the two. And accuracy? LOL. Leadership? Not close.

Give it a rest, the Timid one isn't coming back.

With anyone, nevermind us.

True... BUT...I'm not sure that thought holds true from a college career to the pros. Charles White, Gino Terretta, Ryan Leaf, all come to mind. I do agree that both of the players you mentioned are going to be studs in the big league.

Honest Roethlisberger Q, do you think the accident screwed up his peripheral vision? I was talking about that at work this morning with someone, they said he doesn't scan the field with his eyes anymore and uses his head moreoften than not, and it's been part of the cause of his poor play.

Well, there's a QB in the HOF that couldn't do any better than Charlie when he
started. Let's get him aline first..

Big Ben stats are down because last year the Steelers ran the ball 57% of the time. This year the Steelers are running it 40% of the time.

Some of you will never get it. You win with Defense and a Running game.

The year before last they were primarily a passing team as well.... they finished 6-10. I think they *really* miss having Bettis. Willie Parker has a little speed and some wiggle, but he sure as hell isn't The Bus and he isn't going to punish a defense like Jerome would.

What's the warning that stock brokers have about past performance? No garauntee of future success. It's only an indicator and we've seen many a Heisman go bust.

Mcnair threw 43 times vs. the worst pass D in the NFL (much like you reamed Charlie for) threw a TD on a prevent D and the Ravens lost 13-7. Imagine that, throwing 43 times rushing less than 20 (Mcnair's 2 runs were scrambles) and losing. Strange how such a superior QB can't beat such a bad D isn't it? Have you learned anything yet?

There is a difference in quality between the two QB's though.... I guess we have to look at Drew Breese... He was suppose to suck horribly and he came on strong in his 3rd year. Maybe Charlie will do the same... who know. but we gave him more then enough rope to hang himself.

QB Rating of QB's in their last 6 starts
108.8 -Carson Palmer
105.3 - Tony Romo
101.4 - Drew Brees
96.9 - Peyton Manning
93.7 - Steve McNair
91.0 - Philip Rivers
86.6 - Tom Brady
84.1 - JP Losman
81.7 - Marc Bulger
80.1 - Charlie Frye
77.5 - David Carr
76.6 - Jon Kitna
75.7 - Jake Delhomme
75.6 - Mike Vick
74.2 - Joey Harrington
72.6 - Chad Pennington
72.4 - Ben Roethlisberger
70.0 - Vince Young
69.8 - Brett Favre
67.1 - Matt Leinart
66.6 - Eli Manning
63.4 - Alex Smith
62.3 - Brad Johnson
61.2 - Rex Grossman
59.2 - Bruce Gradkowski

New ESPN Rankings out for this week

1. Peyton Manning
2. Carson Palmer
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
5. Tony Romo
6. Philip Rivers
7. Chad Pennington
8. Steve McNair
9. Eli Manning
10. Trent Green
11. Brett Favre
12. Matt Hasselbeck
13. Michael Vick
14. Ben Roethlisberger
15. Rex Grossman
16. Jake Delhomme
17. Marc Bulger
18. Vince Young
19. David Garrard
20. Matt Leinart
21. Jeff Garcia
22. Joey Harrington
23. Jon Kitna
24. JP Losman
25. David Carr
26. Alex Smith
27. Jason Campbell
28. Brad Johnson
29. Bruce Gradkowski
30. Derek Anderson
31. Jay Cutler
32. Aaron Brooks

So Charlie didn't even make it this time. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Did you see him play?? Yes... he put the team on his shoulders and won basically on his own...

He's starting to look like a pretty damn good QB... his throwing needs to get better, but he's able ot make some huge plays with his legs. Not saying that he'd be able to do it in Cleveland (hell with our luck Manning would be the worst QB in the league on our team). But he is looking like a pretty good player in Tenn

Rex Grossman #15 says it all

I wish he was starting for us

Rex Grossman who went 6 / 19 for 34 yards and 3 ints this week? You want him to start for the Browns? <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

(It was sarcasm) because a lot worse QBs are ranked ahead of Frye

Sorry, without emoticons to express yourself, it's hard to tell whether someone is being serious or not.

Frye's not on that list because they don't see him playing this week. Of course they're going to rate Anderson (unproven talent) fairly low.

I believe that Charlie Frye at this point in his career is not putting up great stats but I do believe that he is a tough kid that can improve with time!

He has started how many games................about as many as a first year QB...........that is not a lot!

He has made many mistakes...................he has also made some really good plays!


The kid is learning..................how did Marino, Elway, Kosar, and many other QBs do in there first years!


The Browns are in a rebuilding stage........and that means getting players that will make the QB better...............it takes time!

The stats that you put up really make no sense for what the team is trying to do! <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Hopefully you are not calling for RAC's head! <img src="/images/graemlins/plthumbsdown.gif" alt="" />

Whoever thinks Gradkowski is better than Frye hasn?t seen both play...that?s all I have to say to that list

ESPN? ROFL....they wonder why we brought in Anderson instead of Holcomb....what did you expect? "4 disastrous INTs".....yeah, a prayer hail-mary before HT is really disastrous....I mean...seriously

It ain't just TC fans on this witch hunt bro......there are plenty of the same losers who have blamed EVERY QB we've had since 99 for our problems as well. As for me, I am consistant, and will say just what I did when TC was here........we don't know what he can do until we give him enough time to actually do it. I laugh my ass off when I hear that you can judge his play without assessing the OL.............BS. You must factor in that since this kid has gotten into the league he's been running for his life, and that has effected his play as well as his growth. This article and all the morons calling for a kid who hasn't played a year yet for God sakes head are full of crap.

I still find it interesting how a change at QB can make the Dallas OL go from [censored] to spectacular... <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

dan marino went to the superbowl in his second year

brady went to the super bowl in his first year of playing...

although i am on your side, charlie has started exactly 16 games... at this point he gets the benefit of the doubt...

anderson was good, but i think people are forgetting that charlie was 11-13 with a touchdown pass before he had to leave the game, he was having what looked like one of his best games...

Didn't Kosar also go to the AFC champ game in his first year starting? yeah, not the greatest of choices...but we get the point

Weren't they also really great TEAMS?

I wasn't aware QB's carried the weight of the game on their shoulders. I saw "Any Given Sunday" last night and one line stuck in my head:

"You're the quarterback. You're the guy that everyone looks at and you're the first one to take the fall."

Football is a team sport.

I fully and totally agree. I'm willing to give Frye time till we get a decent O-line. Then we will see what we got at QB.

[color:"white"]

Like everything Willie, the world is shades of grey, not black and white.

You can judge a QB based on his own merits, just as you can judge a running back on his own merits. They key is having enough film to judge him.

Couch had several years to evolve. He didn't. That '02 line wasn't pretty decent, yet it was the same old Couch. That's when many knew that Couch was done, myself included.

As far as Frye goes, we can judge him without the line. BUT, and it's a big but, he has to have more time to grow and to develop.

You konw I along with Vers were two of Couch's loudest and harshest critics. We were so unified against Couch that Versie and I were swapping PM's back then <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But the kicker is that I personally gave Couch more than 3 full seasons worth of games before I allowed myself to say Yay or Nay to him. '02 was the clincher.

Now we're to Frye. He shows some playmaking ability that Couch never had, yet is showing the same unfortunate tendancies of making the boneheaded decisions. The difference is that this is his 2nd season behind a line that's the worst since '99. Yet despite those mistakes, and my belief that essentially is a "no confidence" vote in him, I'm willing to give Frye more time. That should tell you something <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I've digressed. You can judge a QB without having a good line. The tough part is being able to pick out what's valid info because there's less of it to see.

Most fans (I'm not saying you necessarily) don't have the ability to seperate a player from the result. Droughns is a great example. Decent line play and a veteran QB who's won a Super Bowl equals a solid 12 game stretch and he looked good. Then, suddenly, the line breaks down and the rookie nobody is inserted as the starter. Suddenly, Droughns is worn out, he's slow, he's lost a step, he's not running hard, etc etc etc. So what happens when the line actually has a good game, thus allowing the back somewhere to go? He does what he did last year, looks like the same guy as last year, and suddenly, everything is ok <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

It's the same thing with Frye.

Now he deserves more time because 16 starts isn't enough time to fairly judge. I'm not a true believer in Frye, but unlike Couch, I see enough ability to believe that he can become a servicable starter. I believe he'll have to be replaced, but I also firmly believe that he deserves more time and behind a decent line. Couch had a decent line. This one is playing like pure crap. For every good game like last week, there are 4 or 5 bad ones. That's not good, and wouldn't allow any QB to develop to his best within the 2nd season. [/color]

I can agree with alot of what you are saying, but there are some exceptions as always...lol.

First of all this can't be considered CF's 2nd season, because the kid didn't even play until game 13 last season as you mentioned, and he's played in 12 this year..........that's 16 games bro. As far as experience goes this kid is a shade over a rookie imo. You also must factor in that this isn't exactly the same team as last year either..............new WR, new TE, new LT, new C etc............so he's had no continuity with the same players either. That's another reason I think TC never really had a shot to develop, because we kept changing the damn team every year.............zero chance to develop chemistry. Yeah I know you change to gain more talent, and of course talent trumps continuity, but it does have a downside. I almost started a thread why it's utterly stupid for an expansion team to draft a QB #1 because of some of these reasons, and recent history tends to go towards my idea.............anyway I digress. CF is still basically a smidget over a rookie right now, and needs more time to be evaluated even if we did have a quality line.

Bro, I don't want to get into the TC deadbate again, but that OL in 2002 sucked............we didn't do anything both through the air or through the ground until we simplified the blocking schemes during the bye week. Oh and once we did that WG picked up his production (and I agree it was a fairly decent Run Blocking OL, but it sucked pass blocking) and TC had some of his best games as a Brown. Here's the deal, I agree TC needed replaced, but our [censored] OL play during his developmental years had alot to do with his lack of development, poor decision making (what always pissed me off about him), and the many bad habits he developed. I say this not to defend TC or bring up the deadbate, but to reiterate that we must get this mess of an OL fixed if we want to see CF or any young QB develop properly.

I didn't mean that you can't judge a player away from poor OL play. For example...hehehe.....your boy Droughns. As you stated he had a pretty good game against the Cheifs on Sunday, but he was out shined by a basic nobody RB in Wright. As a matter of fact, he hasn't out performed Wright no matter the circumstance this year. Now I can ask myself this question..........behind a decent OL would Wright be a 1200 yd RB??? I don't think so, as I view Wright as a decent backup but not a feature back like Droughns was in years past. So I can logically assume that there is more wrong with Droughns than just the OL, or he wouldn't be neck and neck in terms of play with a career backup RB. Hey isn't that the argument you and Vers used to convince us that TC wasn't the QB we all thought he was???.......lol. I can look at CF and see that he holds onto the ball entirely too long, and seems to have accuracy problems ( he's often off on his throws when he does have time), What I can't say is that CF isn't the QB of the future, becuase he makes too poor decisions, or isn't developing at a quick enough pace..................and I can't say that because his OL rushes alot of his throws that cause the poor decisions, and as I said earlier OL plays alot into a young QBs development.

This is Frye's 2nd season ... and certainly can be considered such. Frye got to sit, watch, and learn in meetings, and on the sidelines for 11 games last year. Then he got to play. Then he got an entire off-season program, supposedly working with the receivers, all of training camp, and this season's 1st 12 games. He's not a rookie any more. He's closer to his 3rd year than his 1st. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Let'a call him a "rookie" though, if it makes you feel better. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

Ytown...........you haven't saw a QB that you've liked since 99...........although I believe you jumped on the KH bangwagon for awhile until he wasn't the miracle worker you thought he was. You ever thought that maybe our problem isn't at QB??? Oh and I said EXPERIENCE, because we're discussing if it was enough time to judge a player, but you totally forgot to include that in your post. Yep he's had an offseason program and he got to learn how to run for his life by watching TD do so...lol.....but he's had 16 games that he's actually played in.........16 games of in game EXPERIENCE to be judged on. That isn't enough time nor big enough sample set to judge anybody and that was my point................but you go on and continue to beat the QB drum bro if it makes you feel better. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

Actually ..... I liked Tim Couch over Kelly Holcomb. I worried that Holcomb would be exposed when teams saw, and took away the things he was best at.

Turns out I was correct to be concerned.

Teams have largely played Frye the same way since he became the starter. He hasn't been able to make adjustments to what the defenses work on taking away. Just one of the things I see things of Frye that worries me greatly. I see more tools in Anderson, and frankly, better pocket awareness, ability to read the defense, and a stronger arm than Frye.

Frye is a great story. However, Anderson just might be the better QB.I think his play warrants a longer look.

I agree. In TC there should be an open competition..............screw the QB controversy thing, because we don't know what we have in either of these guys, and neither is an established starter in the league. You want to know what I find funny about this new QB argument?? We have a gutty guy that plays hard, but doesn't have the big arm that you would expect from a NFL QB (KH in reverse), going against a kid who has all the natuaral ability you would expect from the NFL starter, but never got a look, because he struggled in college. Keep in mind Anderson was the #1 QB coming out of high school, but never lived up to the potential in College becasue of bad decisions mainly. It's like we are doing this whole thing again, but this time the gutty guy is having to fight off Everybody's All American instead of the other way around.....lol. Ironic huh???

I will say beware of sale on DA until we see what happens when DCs get film on him. I couldn't tell it either way, but just as KH had a quick release it might be becasue he's locking onto his 1st WR................when DCs got a hold of that it killed him. Again, I don't know, and I liked what I've seen out of DA as well, but I'm not ready to hand him a starting job until I see him do it after a DC gameplans for him.

'Unfortunately, I have reached the point where I feel that Frye isn't the guy. He's a great story, a nice kid, but I just don't feel that he has the ability to be a winning starting QB in this league.

No matter what happens(ed) wirth Anderson doesn't color my opinion of Frye in the least. I try to seperate the 2 as much as possible.

IMHO:

1) Frye isn't the guy.

2) Anderson has shown some abilities that successful QBs have, and warrants a longer look to determine whether or not he might be the guy.

Sorry Willie...this is his 2nd season any way look at it.

Interesting, Ytown, that he had a chance to sit and learn and the terrible system everyone said Mo had and then in midseason this year has a new OC that added things at a frantic pace (according to the players), yet he should have a grasp on everything? The OL is just finally gelling the last 2 games and they are all multi year veterans, but a 2nd year QB should have it all down and ready to get to the Super Bowl! I know that was hyperbole, but sometimes that's what such observations deserve.

No offense coach, but I can watch a kid playing football in the street and tell if he has talent, I can watch a kid playing basketball by himself and tell if he has talent, just by the way he carries himself and the way he moves and stuff... so I can watch an NFL qb run an NFL offense (even if it's a lousy system with a lousy OL) and make the same assessment.... I'm not saying Frye has no talent, I'm saying that my opinion is that he is lacking in some things which are very fundamental to playing QB at this level maybe they can be learned, I don't really know but it seems to me that most of the qbs who are successful in this league just seem to have them, they don't develop them.... they may refine them, they may improve on them a bit... but they seldom seem to go from not having them to having them....

Didn't Anderson have to learn the same things ... with far less work with the #1s?

Frye has been regressing. His one lone exceptional game was against the Falcons. Even the villified Kelly Holcomb had a couple of really good games ..... before the bottom fell out. The bottom has fallen out for Frye. Frankly, if the kid wasn't from Akron, I doubt he'd get 1/4 the support he does.

I don't like Frye's pocket presence. I don't like his arm. I don't like his reads. I don't like his decisions. I don't like him running into trouble instead of out of it. I don't like the way he locks onto receivers. I don't like his mechanics. Other than that .... I do like his fire and determination. I just don't think it's enough to make him a competent starting QB.

Yes, and all of those things are because he can't do them and not because he has been on his back more than a $2 prostitute in Tijuana. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" /> Your newest version of KH did a decent job against no pressure and the OL playing better. No one came untouched at DA. When and if that happens, then we'll see how he responds. Until then, enjoy swinging from his jock....until the first bad play when you and the other impatient ones are screaming for us to draft the QB out of Hawaii because he was so awesome in college....then give him 2 preseason games before the crying for another QB to be drafted. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

Funny you don't give credit to Frye for the great half he had against KC when he was playing outstanding......and even leading a scoring drive while throwing with an injured wrist. Yet DA proved what a great QB he is while having almost the exact same production against the same team. Man, some people's agendas are way too clear. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />