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So it is unfortunate for Knile because some casual fan on a message board happened to tune in and thought he ran like a coward? Makes sense.
It's unfortunate for a talented guy that some casual fan only saw him play one time, a time when he played horribly, leaving a bad impression.
It does make sense to someone not looking to spit at someone's feet. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Quote:
So it is unfortunate for Knile because some casual fan on a message board happened to tune in and thought he ran like a coward? Makes sense.
It's unfortunate for a talented guy that some casual fan only saw him play one time, a time when he played horribly, leaving a bad impression.
It does make sense to someone not looking to spit at someone's feet.
So you basically said the same thing I did...
It does make sense to someone who doesn't unjustly think so highly of himself.
[color:"white"]I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane -Waylon Jennings
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What, the wife make you sleep on the couch tonight? Had nothing better to add than to pick a fight when all I clearly said is it was unfortunate that the only time I saw the guy play was on a night where he played terribly?
Go back to the basement and curl up with the cat. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Why make this personal. Why bring my wife into this? You get questioned, and you result to personal attacks. Did you get beat up a lot as a kid? I bet you did.
Let me help you out with what I am trying to get through your thick skull. You said " unfortunately for Knile" How exactly is it unfortunate that some dbag thinks he played like a coward? Is it going to hurt his stock? Lose sleep over it?
Doubt it.
[color:"white"]I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane -Waylon Jennings
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See, now you get it. There wasn't any point to jump in except to seek confrontation. On a football message board.  Too bad I had to retort in a similarly personal fashion to get the point across.  Next time...just keep it to yourself.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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See, now you get it. There wasn't any point to jump in except to seek confrontation. On a football message board. Too bad I had to retort in a similarly personal fashion to get the point across. Next time...just keep it to yourself.
Oh, I do get it. The message board is your personal life. I asked a simple question, and you resulted in a personal attack. On a football message board.
Keep to myself? I don't think so. This is a message board for open discussion. Thanks for the advice though little fella. 
[color:"white"]I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane -Waylon Jennings
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You may find it funny to hear, but I do believe you dislike Richardson because of how you view value. I just think you place too much value in your own value system.  You still hate the selection of Mack in spite of the fact that everyone else on the planet acknowledges that his selection was a big win. That's your right, but most disagree.
I can agree with most of the other stuff you wrote, D.Moore/Millinier, Graham etc and not being fair to TRich being compared to the QBs because of positions etc, although that's exactly WHY you shouldn't draft a RB that high: value impact.
Anyway...your above quote is a good point for discussion, although I have little hope it'll get through. My "dislike" of TRich and Mack is simply because of draft and Browns roster value and that 2009 draft is a perfect example of how NOT to play a draft. I liked and LIKE BOTH players as they both had and still have high floors and good to great ceilings.
That said, my "problem" with those selections was strictly value based. Let's see if I overvalue my own definition of value, which btw is that of pretty much most NFL GMs. It's no coincidence that interior OL and RB tend to drop and are few in the 1st and pass rushers, LTs, DTs and QBs are overdrafted and numerous in round 1. It's exactly because of value and supply and demand of today's NFL. We start seeing similar things with regards to the FS position now, as the Vikes overdrafted H.Smith last draft and the Pats took a 3rd day guy in round 2.
2009 draft is a perfect example of what I mean. Sure, Mack is a good C, not elite, but well above AVG to good, let's say he's the 5th to 10th best C around, by all "experts" that's where he gets ranked normally. By drafting him in round 1, we pretty much "punted" more pressing needs at more valuable positions further down "just" because we wanted a "safe" pick in the 1st. So instead of drafting Orakpo, Matthews, Barwin, Crabtree, Nicks, Maclin, Britt, Oher and even QB Freeman...ALL players we had a shot at, Mangini went with the "safe" Mack. So what happend? We were left scrambling to find good pass rushers and receivers out of the 2nd and 3rd tier of guys...so the Mack selection DIRECTLY LED to us reaching for the likes of Robo, Massa and Veikune. We went with the BEST interior OL at the price of going with the 7th and 8th WR selected and the 18th (!) front 7 player. Re-read that last sentence carefully again. My conclusion of this mess? We "drafted not to bust", which coincidentally was Mangini's on field approach as well "not to lose"..."not to look bad" etc instead of drafting to maximize value and try to win
If we picked a high value player in the 1st, we would have some nice value picks going forward...players like Unger and Levitre were the 3rd and 4th interior OL selected. We could have a top 3 WR or pass rusher to go along with a top 5 interior OL prospect. Does that sound like a more balanced approach? It does to me.
The easy way out here is to say that Mangini was a hack and could have just picked better after Mack, but that's tougher to do when you put yourself into a corner by selecting an interior OL in round 1. Could he have still picked Levitre or Unger? Sure, but what kind of team would he field then? See? That's why you can't ISOLATE one single selection in any draft.
The Steelers did the same mistake last draft btw and I remember being the only one around here saying they had a crap draft and it's showing already. They overdrafted a G in round 1, scrmabled for the 10th boom or bust OT in Adams in round 2 and then took a prayer at a "falling" DT in Ta'amu, who obviously fell for a reason.
Back to the Browns: If we would NOT have picked TRich, we would have been able to get NICE value at the end of round 1 with D.Martin or anywhere in the mid rounds with Morris, Pierce or Hillman and some others.
Now ask yourself this question: how many good C, Gs and RBs are FAs EVERY offseason? I see PLENTY of them every March looking for a new team. How many top QBs, pass rushers, LTs and even CBs do you see compared to that? See? That's my point....it's much easier to find good talent at those low value positions in FA and lower in the draft, that's why it's stupid to take those positions early in ANY draft.
The draft isn't about selecting a "safe" player "to look good". You draft to improve your team, just as you sign FAs to improve your roster. Conisdering all that, TRich and Mack in fact were BAD selections and I'll argue that any day because I have pretty significant data and arguments to back that up.
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Just curious because I agree about Trent, who would you have take at pick 4?
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Was torn between Claiborne and Blackmon. In my mock I took Claiborne simply because of position value as a tie breaker and because I liked the (outside) WR depth better than the (outside) CB depth. Blackmon's anti-Browns comments didn't help either. I never even considered TRich, as I would have signed a FA stop gap RB and drafted a mid rounder
Claiborne had an up and down rook season from week to week, but overall was consistent and reportedly good in man coverage. We all know about Blackmon's season. I liked the idea of him and Weeden in round 1 for instant chemistry and we would have saved our 2nd rounder invested into Gordon (additional 4th, 5th and 7th rounder to invest if we dont trade up for TRich)
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Save our second round investment?
I would much prefer TRich, Weeden and Gordon to Blackmon, Weeden, 2013 2nd rounder.
There probably won't be anyone at that pick that comes close to Gordon's production, and TRich is a far better offensive player than Blackmon is.
I think you get a little too wrapped up in draft picks and perceived value.
you had a good run Hank.
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Does anyone know where John Simon is projected in this draft? Because if he were available in the third or if we traded into the second I would be completely on board with having him on the team.
With the probable switch to either a 3-4 or a hybrid defense I think he fits that "tweener" mold perfectly and could be a great OLB.
1. Milliner
3. Simon
I think we could be solid with this as a line up:
Taylor Rubin Winn
Simon Jackson Johnson Sheard
Millner Haden
Ward Brown
Proud fan of the Pulaski Academy football strategy.
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I'm seeing Simon slated as a 2nd round pick.
But there could be some GOOD 3-4 OLBs in the third...
Jamie Collins- Southern Miss
Corey Lemonier- Auburn
Brandon Jenkins- Florida State
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4th and punt:
CBS has him rated at 64 overall, which would put him right in front of our 3rd round pick. If we switch to a 3-4, and especially if Moore and Jones are gone by 6, then I think going Milliner then pass rusher in the third is a strong strategy. Like Brownoholic mentioned, 3rd round looks to be the sweet spot for pass rushers this year.
Simon, Jenkins, and Carradine could all be there at 68.
6. CB Dee Milliner, Alabama
68. OLB Brandon Jenkins, FSU
4th. ILB Nico Johnson, Alabama
5th. DE Joe Kruger, Utah / DE Kwame Geathers, Georgia
6th. P Brad Wing, LSU
7th (f PHI). CB Travis Howard, OSU
7th. FB Braden Wilson, KSU
Go after RBs Knile Davis and Zac Stacy hard as UDFA. If Stoneburner goes undrafted, go hard after him as well. We might be able to pick up one of these guys if we end up getting a comp 7th... push Stoneburner into our 7th pick then take Wilson with the comp. Josh Dworaczyk could be a good OL UDFA target as well, having experience starting at LT and OG for LSU.
I hate that this draft has no OL and no RB, but if we're switching to a 3-4, we're going to need to draft at least 3 front-7 guys. We already know that we need to draft t least one corner as well.
Last edited by clevesteve; 01/14/13 11:53 AM.
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Just a question for the board to answer:
Would you be ok with trading entirely out of the 1st round this year to stockpile picks for next year? I'm talking like trading our 1st for a late 2nd and 3rd this year and a 1st and 2nd next year.
I don't follow the draft as much as a lot of people, but this draft seems really weak, while next year's looks like it is shaping up to be amazing (though things can always change). I'm also not sure another team would be willing to move-up this year, considering the lack of talent up front.
The switch to a 34 defense might throw a kink in this plan (we might need to draft an OLB pass rusher if we get the chance), but I think right now, this would be my plan.
Anyway, your thoughts?
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If we stay in a 4-3, yes. But I got to tell you, we're not the only team that thinks this draft is weak. I've been checking out a Jets board recently and they're saying the exact same things.
Everyone knows next year is stacked.
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I would totally be on board with this, but as stated everyone knows this so it may be tough to do.
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I'm on Board , but finding a seat might be rough ! 
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I suggested in this thread that the 49ers could be a team that wants to trade up, maybe for one of the elite DTs, one of their few needs. They also have 11 picks and nowhere to put them on their roster
With a switch to the 3-4 though (and it's coming, stop acting as if it's not a done deal because it is), I'd be less willing to do such a move as we need an elite pass rusher at 6...now, if we sign a Barwin or Spencer in FA, that might change, but I doubt these elite FAs make it to FA.
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Like others I would be onboard with this particularly if we stick with the 4-3. But I just don't see a player that would make teams want to give up alot. The only hope would seem to be for a QB or two to really light it up at the combine.
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Depends on who's available when we would pick.
Given that the front office let Heckert go primarily because they didn;t feel that he delivered enough elite players given the draft position the team enjoyed over the past 3 years, I would think that trading down would not be on the agenda. It would not surprise me to see us trade UP for an elite player, if there is one there we really like, and if we can find a trade partner.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If we switch to this hybrid defense it seems like Damontre Moore is a perfect fit. He has played standing up and with his hand in the ground. And has been successful doing both.
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A team looking to trade up for a pass rusher would be Seattle .. They are that close to being a being elite in the near future .. I think 
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Quote:
A team looking to trade up for a pass rusher would be Seattle .. They are that close to being a being elite in the near future .. I think
That is true, they also need to think about a RB.... Lynch is good and they have Turbin who is young but he was a 4th round pick.. Lynch had his career high in carrys last year... unless they have faith that Turbin is a legit every down back in case Lynch goes down, they might want to add depth there.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Would you be ok with trading entirely out of the 1st round this year to stockpile picks for next year? I'm talking like trading our 1st for a late 2nd and 3rd this year and a 1st and 2nd next year.
Depends on what our plan for FA is this year, If we can go get a legit corner, 2 LB a Veteran WR and a Guard I'm all for trading out of the draft this year and stock piling for next year.
I'm also for trading next years # 1 & # 2 for more picks this year, why not the plan is to improve each year, hopefully next year we have a pick in the late 20's so what are we really giving up next year to improve this year.
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If we can go get a legit corner, 2 LB a Veteran WR and a Guard
Depending on the quality of the players you are hoping to get at those positions, I feel you might be disappointed.. not many teams have 4 real quality FA signings in a year... except the Eagles and they sucked.
yebat' Putin
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If Tahj Boyd comes out... Would you pick him at #6?
I've been talking to some people who coached and knows the kid. He's from my area and from Phoebus one of the schools I deal with. So I have been trying to find out (for Brownie selfish reasons) who is advising this kid. For those who do know him, I've been planting the seeds for him to come out this year. I think with the nfl revolving to more pistol formations it would be much better for Boyd to come out this year instead of next. With no elite qb's coming out, and next years draft be overloaded with star quality talent, I think its ideal for him to come out this year.
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he already said he's going back to school. deadline for declaring is this afternoon.
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I know thats why I been pushing it. But he could always go into the supplemental draft as well.
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You can't just go into the supplemental draft. There has to be a reason.
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Unless you are Bernie Kosar. Mwahahahahahhahahahahaaaaa 
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I would be ok with getting out of the first round altogether, but I would prefer that 2nd pick be somewhat high in that round..
I'm hoping more that if Moore is not available at 6, that we trade back anyway. (That's assuming Jones is gone like we all think he will be)
I know we have needs but I feel like the only high picks I want to spend in this draft are on either CB or LB/DE. What if Jones, Milliner, and Moore are gone? Do you just take the best OL since we could use a starter as well as depth?
If you move back, I think you can still get guys who you could really use. I love Eiffert out of Notre Dame, and we're gonna need an upgrade at that position in Chud's offense... Still good OL at that spot.
That would be my ideal scenario is that we trade back to somewhere between 15-25 and land ourselves back in the second round for this year. That would really be awesome. I'd rather have a 1st rounder in the teens/20's + a second round pick, then just number 6 overall, with this crop of players.
Although if you flip that around, who wants to get into the 6 spot? If Barkley lands on our spot? Does someone get antsy? That's a stretch. We may be stuck there, ugh.
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Barkley at 6? Pfft we'll probably take him.  Seriously, I'm preparing to be royally pissed after this draft... Just seems like we're ganna do something stupid after 2-3 years of "that was a really good draft"
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I'll play... Quote:
That would be my ideal scenario is that we trade back to somewhere between 15-25 and land ourselves back in the second round for this year. That would really be awesome. I'd rather have a 1st rounder in the teens/20's + a second round pick, then just number 6 overall, with this crop of players.
I disagree here. To my eye, there's not much difference in the talent from 15-25 to say 30-40. It's not a wash, but close to it, especially if you consider how much more you could land moving further down.
I have 2 players that we should pick almost no matter what if they are still on the board: OLB Moore and CB Milliner. I have no reservations on both. I see both as having very high floors, great ceilings and little negatives on their resumee.
Outside of those, we either have no need for the others (DT, OT) or there's some sort of risk (injury, character, inconsistent performance) or the positional value just isn't there (Teo, Warmack).
I really think we should draft Moore no matter the offer. If he's gone, which is very possible, it gets trickier, as we already have a no1 CB on the roster, so the CB need can be adressed later (or in FA) as there's enough no2 talent to be drafted later, especially with more picks.
But IF we trade down I really prefer a late 1st rounder, like from the 49ers. I would even trade back further depending on what's left. I think there could be competition for the 6th overall for teams who need a quality DT or OT, so we could be in position to do an ATL-reloaded trade down. This draft has little high ceiling talent, but lots of mid-round/ok NFL talent, so I would look to maximize picks in that range as it ups the % of landing and adding quality players
Quote:
Although if you flip that around, who wants to get into the 6 spot? If Barkley lands on our spot? Does someone get antsy? That's a stretch. We may be stuck there, ugh.
I think Lotulei is our ticket out of no6. He's a top10 player at a high value position. If the best DT of the class still sits there at 6 teams will start picking up the phone...
If some team thinks Teo is their missing piece? Who knows....
We could sell out on the best CB in Milliner too. I think we should be able to trade down if we want to do so.
If we "only" trade down to the teens of round 1 the only players I like there are G Cooper, CB Banks and OLB Okafor and I'm still not liking the value (and questionable need) of Cooper there, so I'd rather trade down to the 30-40 range and collect a future 1st and 2nd this draft plus some additional and valuable mid rounders. 40-120 is the value of this (and most other) draft(s)
So, my approach would be to either swing for the fences (high end quality and little else) with Moore or Milliner or sacrifice bunt and go with small ball (quantity of "ok" talent to up hitting %). The first approach is probably a better fit with our "consensus" war room group, as the latter would require a better eye for talent to maximize the value
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Quote:
Seriously, I'm preparing to be royally pissed after this draft... Just seems like we're ganna do something stupid after 2-3 years of "that was a really good draft"
I don't even know how that feels anymore after 3 Heckert drafts...I'll be incredibly pissed if we draft any QB, Teo or an interior OL at 6...or something else stupid: like a WR or DT or OT.
Will be a strange feeling going back to having no faith in the guys running our draft. Heckert didn't do a lot of outsmarting when it came to Top 10 picks. He either got a pretty safe and good player or he got a great deal to add picks. I have little faith our guys' board will be deep and prepared enough to have clear plan AND be flexible enough if a great offer comes our way
We'll see, but I prepare myself too to get a "mixed" draft at best. Not Mangini bad, as I think Banner and even Haslam have better judgment skills, if only because they'll outsmart themselves less and go with nfl.com's board or whatever dude handed them a piece of paper. Probably something in between Mangini and Heckert. Here's hope that these guys are at least smart and play the draft accordingly and not get played...
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I'm sure Banner is gonna have great people scouting players in college, the best that they can find. I just hope the bottom line isn't signability or anything like that. I know I'm thinking Banner the cap guy when I say that, but it does make me a little nervous that it seems like he's running this whole thing. Wouldn't be fair to not give him a chance though. Get the best players and let Chud coach them up. Seems simple enough.
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Signability shouldn't be any problem as it's pretty much slotted now and teams draft on a strict budget. Agents and their players have next to no leverage. Even one of us could get them signed
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The only problem in the 1st round is usually which draft pick in the 20s is the cutoff sport for the last year being gaurenteed...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Depending on the quality of the players you are hoping to get at those positions, I feel you might be disappointed.. not many teams have 4 real quality FA signings in a year... except the Eagles and they sucked.
your right, I was just tossing that out thier for conversation sake, We need to watch who we sign, thier contracts will affect our current players, when they come up to resign, toss a bunch of money at averge players were gonna have to bust the bank to keep our core players, hieden, Mack ect.
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Here is the complete list of underclassmen who declared (the deadline to declare was January 15th): Quote:
» Keenan Allen, WR, California
» Alvin Bailey, G, Arkansas
» Stedman Bailey, WR, West Virginia
» David Bakhtiari, OT, Colorado
» Le'Veon Bell, RB, Michigan State
» Gio Bernard, RB, North Carolina
» Josh Boyce, WR, TCU
» Tyler Bray, QB, Tennessee
» Terrence Brown, CB, Stanford
» Knile Davis, RB, Arkansas
» Mike Edwards, CB, Hawaii
» Matt Elam, S, Florida
» Zach Ertz, TE, Stanford
» Gavin Escobar, TE, San Diego State
» Chris Faulk, OT, LSU
» Sharrif Floyd, DT, Florida
» D.J. Fluker, OT, Alabama
» Michael Ford, RB, LSU
» Travis Frederick, C, Wisconsin
» Kwame Geathers, NT, Georgia
» William Gholston, DE, Michigan State
» Johnathan Hankins, DT, Ohio State
» DeAndre Hopkins, WR, Clemson
» Justin Hunter, WR, Tennessee
» Jawan Jamison, RB, Rutgers
» Stefphon Jefferson, RB, Nevada
» Tony Jefferson, S, Oklahoma
» Jelani Jenkins, LB, Florida
» Luke Joeckel, OT, Texas A&M
» Jarvis Jones, LB, Georgia
» Brandon Kaufman, WR, Eastern Washington
» Joe Kruger, DE, Utah
» Eddie Lacy, RB, Alabama
» Marcus Lattimore, RB, South Carolina
» Corey Lemonier, DE, Auburn
» Bennie Logan, DT, LSU
» Stansly Maponga, DE, TCU
» Tyrann Mathieu, CB, LSU
» Dee Milliner, CB, Alabama
» Barkevious Mingo, LB, LSU
» Kevin Minter, LB, LSU
» Sam Montgomery, DE, LSU
» Brandon Moore, DT, Texas
» Damontre Moore, DE, Texas A&M
» Alec Ogletree, LB, Georgia
» Kyle Padron, QB, Eastern Washington
» Cordarrelle Patterson, WR, Tennessee
» Justin Pugh, OL, Syracuse
» Joseph Randle, RB, Oklahoma State
» Jordan Reed, TE, Florida
» Eric Reid, S, LSU
» Greg Reid, CB/PR, Valdosta State
» Sheldon Richardson, DT, Missouri
» Xavier Rhodes, CB, Florida State
» Nickell Robey, CB, USC
» Da'Rick Rogers, WR, Tennessee Tech
» Logan Ryan, CB, Rutgers
» Darrington Sentimore, DE, Tennessee
» Tharold Simon, CB, LSU
» Dion Sims, TE, Michigan State
» Akeem Spence, DT, Illinois
» Kenny Stills, WR, Oklahoma
» Levine Toilolo, TE, Stanford
» Spencer Ware, RB, LSU
» Trabis Ward, RB, Tennessee State
» Menelik Watson, OT, Florida State
» Bjoern Werner, DE, Florida State
» Steve Williams, CB, Cal
» Marquess Wilson, WR, Washington State
» Brad Wing, P, LSU
» Cierre Wood, RB, Notre Dame
» Robert Woods, WR, USC
» Tom Wort, LB, Oklahoma
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
jc
Time for a new mock, still based on cbs (nfldraftscout) rankings:
6 DE/OLB Moore
68 WR Q.Patton or CB Wreh-Wilson
101 DE B.Logan or C/G Holmes or CB McFadden
132 S Motta or RB Graham or RB Barner
~170 CB J.Adams or DE/OLB E.Martin
~205 OT Armstead or CB Hurst or S Cyprien
~208 TE Rivera or TE Toilolo or TE Lutzenkirchen or TE Griffin
~250 P Allen or DE/OLB T.Johnson or S Frey
UDFAs (300+): WR E.Blake, RB Stacy, S Stafford, OT Becton, DE D.King, S Boyett, S McCoil, RB Knile Davis, DE/OLB Schreibeis, TE Jefferson, WR Sales, FS Holley
Thoughts?
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