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I suggest that you rewatch the game ..... because that's simply not ture. Hell, he had 3 defenders bearing down on him on a really nice screen play in the 1st half.

I know ... that one doesn't count somehow ..... <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

Isn't that how a screen is designed? The guys are supposed to be coming at him? What's your point?

My point is that similar plays have happened this year, and the QB has been unwilling, or unable to make that throw.

Pressure is pressure ... and Anderon, frankly, seems to deal with it quicker and more effectively.

Now I'm utterly confused. Its not like it was an "adhoc" screen play.

I'll agree that he didn't seem to hold the ball as long, but that was the least I've seen the Steelers blitz in my entire life.
Those two have to balance out to a degree.

LOL, you are using a play that is DESIGNED TO ALLOW PRESSURE as proof that the Steelers were pressuring Anderson?!?!?! I suggest you set your biased opinion aside and rewatch the game. There wasn't ONE TIME that a defender blitzed untouched at DA. There was rarely more than 3-4 defenders rushing at all. The defense was designed to stop the run and force a backup QB to beat them, just as it was in the playoffs with KH. For someone that talks about it so much, you don't heed your own sig (or former sig) very often. Those that fail to learn from the past are destined to repeat it. We simply have the same situation with the typical fans not having a clue and jumping on the flavor of the month. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

How many times has Frye made that same play? I can't think of a single instance. Can you?

Frye doesn't make that play because he runs when pressured.

One of us will be right regarding Frye, and one of us will be proved wrong. If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to admit it. I suspect that if you're wrong ... you'll make excuses. No big deal. Time will tell.

I'm wrong about Frye? What am I wrong about? I haven't even stated that I think Frye is a starter. I have stated that he needs more time and some more talent around him to be able to evaluate him.

I won't make any excuses if he fails. I know you won't either. You'll be busy pimping DA for a week or two until he struggles and then pimping the next flavor of the month. Like you said, no big deal, but sad to put these players on such a uneducated and unrealistic timetable.

The only thng I have said about the 2 QBs is that I am growing more and more convinced that Frye isn't the answer .... and that Anderson has shown some things that make me think that he might have a chance to be.

You seem to think that because I see traits and abilities in Anderson that I consider to be superior to those in Frye that I see him as some sort of savior. There is no savior for this season. We have seen Frye make the same mistakes time and time again. It's time to see if Anderson has the ability to grow in the last few games of this season, or whether we need to go find yet another QB.

Actually, we have seen that when Charlie gets protection (Atlanta & KC), he performs well. We have also seen that DA got good protection and performed well. The pass protection is FINALLY coming together after Mo's departure and a new philosphy thrown in. It's too early to be making any decisions on any QB right now. It's hard not to make the same decisions over and over when you are in the same position over and over and over....prone. To overcome mistakes, to learn the game, and to grow as a QB, you have to have protection. Period. We are just now starting to do that. Yes, Charlie has held the ball too long at times, ran into problems with his feet, and made mistakes. He has also been the victim of terrible pass protection, dropped balls, tipped balls becoming INTs, etc. As I said before the season started when discussing the offense. You can overcome a young QB learning and growing and making those mistakes or you can overcome a new system and an OL needing time to gel with a veteran QB. However, it's really tough to overcome both problems at the same time.

Coach ..... being a coach, let me ask you 2 questions.

Is this line better without Andruzzi and Tucker .... or with them?

Does the QB have a role in his own protection, and if so, what do you see as his responsibilities?

That is too simplistic a question...the first one. The simple answer is no they aren't. HOWEVER, it isn't just the line, as you can see in my post I don't blame them for everything. However, I have said, and still do, that the PASS PROTECTION has been better the last two games. That includes the TEs and the RBs. There is NO denying this. Second, the pass protection hasn't had to deal with as many blitzes the last two games so the protection has held up regardless of WHO is at QB.

The answer to your second question is that yes, the QB has a role in the protection. This is something that Frye has developed a problem with. He HAS caused sacks by holding the ball too long and by running into a sack. HOWEVER, why was the ball held too long? Was the WR in the right place, was he open, did the WR make the right hot read, etc. Also, having been knocked down so many times and being criticized for sitting and holding the ball too long, has Frye developed a bit of happy feet? Of course. Frye's biggest knock is not throwing the ball away, IMO. He has tried to courageously stand in or make a play with his feet. This is something that can be corrected rather easily.

All in all, we'll see how it plays out. There are holes in Frye's game, no doubt. My whole contention is that these are things that can be fixed with time. The process is slowed with all the other factors going into this season.

Look at everything overal, Ytown. You are a very intelligent person. We had a line that had ZERO pre-season time together as a unit. We had no time to gel. We had a #1 WR that is basically a rookie and coming off ACL tear, a #2 WR that was injured, a RB that had shoulder problems, and a TE that is basically a rookie as well. We had a system in place that by all accounts was disasterous and the wrong blocking schemes being called for the plays called. Now, add all that to basically a rookie QB that needs to learn the game and become a complete player. Do you REALLY think that with all those factors, Frye could mature and progress quickly as a QB? These aren't excuses, these are facts. Quite simply, Vers and I stated the offense would be poor and progress slow from the beginning of the season for all those factors. We were both called negative and it was insinuated we were idiots for saying such things about a playoff bound team. If I had to take the abuse for saying it before, I'm not going to let those facts be dismissed now that what I pointed out then has come to fruition <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Now, with all that you said, no, you wouldn't expect a whole lot of progression throughout a season. But you would expect some. Frye, to me, has looked basically the same throughout the whole year. And you can't keep saying that he's basically a rookie. It is now is second year in the system and in the league, and he has started over 16 games. That is no longer an excuse.

Anderson, on the other hand, has not been playing in 16 games. He hasn't had time to play with this O, to get used to this line, and get a feel for the game. But from these past games, I have seen Anderson look as good if not better tan Frye has. I don't know how you are going to explain that, whether you say that the line has played better or whatever. It's still the same line we've had all season. Anderson has been getting the ball out quicker and making much better reads that Frye.

Frye would constantly lock onto recivers, run around aimlessly at the first site of a defender, and never read an incoming blitz. Anderson, however, has checking down and going through his progressions nicely, standing strong in the pocket and stepping up in it instead of running outside, and reading blitz' and getting rid of the ball faster. All of that, with 15 games less experience.

Coach, I just want to know your honest opinion on Anderson. You don't seem to be real big on him, but from what I have seen, Anderson looks very, very intruiging. I want to see more, and am hoping for him to start against the Ravens, so we can get a better look. We have seen what we have in Charlie so far, now I want to see what we have in Anderson.

ps I don't know if this exactly goes with the convo, because I havn't read much of it, I just want to know your opinion on him Coach, because you don't seem to think Anderson has any potential and think that Frye is 10 steps ahead of him.

See, I don't buy the "QB has been knocked down so many times" argument. Why? This isn't a lifetime of abuse that Frye has taken. It's been 16 games, split over 2 seasons.

Further, look at our sack numbers before Frye took over, and after he took over last year. We gave up about the same number of sacks in the 1st 11 games as in the final 5. Why? It can't all be the line.

Then look at yesterday's game compared to the game against the Steelers just 4 games ago. We had Andruzzi and Tucker in that game. We ran the ball. Frye had an OK game, but was sacked 5 times. Yesterday we didn't have Tucker, and Andruzzi came out early with an injury. We allowed no sacks. Why? Obviously it can't all be th line.

I watch Frye play and it's almost painful. He doesn't appear to have that instant connection between "this is what I see" to making the throw to the right place as Anderson does.

I also have to ask myself .... if I were an opposing defensive coordinator, how would I play each guy? For FRye, I'd just sell out and bring it hard on every down ..... because I know he can't get the ball out quickly enough to hurt me. With Anderson ..... I'm not sure. The kid appears to make faster decisions, and has a much quicker release. Would the same strategy work against him? The Steelers didn't seem to think so.

[color:"white"] The kid appears to make faster decisions, and has a much quicker release. Would the same strategy work against him? The Steelers didn't seem to think so.
[/color]

no opinion on the main debate between u two ... just one observation ...

in game 1 we KILLED BEN .. last night we hardly touched him ... why??

2 reasons IMO ...

1. FIELD CONDITIONS .... i think this played big time into the lack of pressure on both sides of the ball

2. game situations ... last time they were playing from behind ... so this forced them to pass on every down and also forced them into a gambling mode on D ..

i think u need to take into consideration before u start doing any analyzation between Frye and Derek based on a common opponent .. FIELD CONDITIONS and GAME SITUATIONS .. but thats just me ... <img src="/images/graemlins/naughtydevil.gif" alt="" />

That's where your logic becomes faulty. They didn't rush the QB because their focus was on stopping the run. It is a sound defensive philosophy that they used before when they shut down WG and dared KH to beat them. Cowher said as much later. You stick with what works. There wasn't a concern about the pass. The focus was to stop the run.

To answer your other question, as I said, it isn't just the line. Have you seen our RBs try to pick up a blitz? It hadn't been happening. Plus, there was little to no blitzing the last two games. The Chiefs don't utilize the blitz and the Steelers didn't for other reasons. If you want to compare, as I said in another thread, don't compare a blitzing team with their starting secondary to one that changes the philosophy to protect their 2nd team safeties with help and focus on the stopping the run. It's apples and oranges. Had the safeties been there for this game like last game, there may have been more pressure.

IF DA gets a start against the Ravens, they WILL blitz him. IF he does start, then you can tell me after his performance if it is the pass protection or not. I have a feeling that IF DA gets the start, the results will be the same.

The new midweek QB rankings are out...


1.Carson Palmer
2.Derek Anderson
3.Tony Romo
4.Drew Brees
5.Peyton Manning
6.Steve McNair
7.Philip Rivers
8.Tom Brady
9.JP Losman
10.Marc Bulger
11.David Carr
12.Jon Kitna
13.Jake Delhomme
14.Mike Vick
15.Joey Harrington
16.Chad Pennington
17.Ben Roethlisberger
18.Vince Young
19.Brett Favre
20.Matt Leinart
21.Eli Manning
22.Alex Smith
23.Brad Johnson
24.Rex Grossman
25.Bruce Gradkowski

[color:"gold"] The Browns problems with the offense are not with the QB position. We have 3 QBs who can play at the NFL level.

It is good to get a look at Derek so we have an idea what we can do. He could end up being our future starter. But the Browns offense is going nowhere until we fix our running game which means fixing the offensive line.

Forget the QB position, the Browns are solid there...concentrate on the Oline...mac [/color]

mac, your font color is hard as hell to read, <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> but I agree with you, to an extent. I'm not sure how solid we are at QB but it should not be the main concern of the FO or Coaching Staff or FANS right now. We need OL first and a running game. This will give protection to whomever the QB is (I think Frye gets more time) and will open up the pass by making teams play the run and visa-versa. Also our WR's need to stop dropping passes so much and our RB's and TE's need to start picking up the blitz much better.

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> That is easily the most uneducated football respons I've ever seen in my life. Wow, that opened my eyes - you need to take remedial football classes if you think those guys came in "untouched" on a SCREEN pass.

Frye hasn't made that play much, probably because we rarely run screens and if you read anyones post you'd have seen that many of us have complained about that.

Hate to barge into the argument between you and YTown, but I gotta ask both of you this.......

So many people are saying the pass protection was improved last night. They are also saying that the Steelers only rushed 3...and sometimes 4.

Is anyone considering the two are related? LOL....

Is anyone considering that both these young quarterbacks are being hindered by the lack of talent around them?

I always thought that a young qb was supposed to be protected w/a good OL, a sound running game, and receivers who run the correct route and don't drop a ton of balls. Am I wrong? LOL....come on, guys.

It's much deeper than just the play of the two quarterbacks.

that's just crazy talk... it's the QB's. Frye sucks, DA is god.

as we embark on our 5th or 6th QB .... 4th or 5th OC .... 5th or 6th RB ... and our 325th OL (and 316 of the OL we let go never played a regualr season down anywhere and the only one that ACTUALLY SUCCEDED on another team ... PLAYED A DIFFERENT POSITION than he did here) ... i would have to say that QB is definetly the problem ... it couldn't be the 325 OL that SUCKED have hindered eveyone else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

give me a break Vers .... it couldn't be the OL ... NO WAY ... <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> .....now thats not to say I thiink Frye is the answer ....

and I actually find this quite funny coming from U .... did Timid have any of those other things u want for Frye or any other brown QB for that matter .. or was timid a grizzled vet when he came here ... <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

How did I know you would bring this up? LOL

I wasn't on the board during Timid's first two years. I actually thought he played pretty damn good w/the [censored]-poor talent he had around him when he was a rook and before he got hurt in his second year. Btw...remember how he got hurt? Hit a helmet in practice. LOL....we couldn't even protect him in practice.

I started having some concerns about Timid in his third year. Yes, the OL still sucked, but he wasn't improving at all. His mechanics were awful, and if you remember, I said they would lead to him having arm troubles. His footwork was putrid, on occasion he threw w/his right foot in front of his left. His reading of defenses and especially coverages was awful, and talk about holding the ball too long.

People don't want to admit this, but during his fourth year..........the OL was decent. We had Wahls at center and Tuck and Verbs were solid at the tackles. Stokes and O'Hara were a problem, but were better pass blockers than run blockers. That line was the best line we have had...........by far. Timid's results didn't change much. But........that is the only year we made the playoffs. Coincidence?

But, let me say this............Timid was definately hurt by the [censored]-poor talent around him early in his career. It's just plain wrong to expect a young QB to CARRY the team. To be "the guy." I don't know if he would have made it if he was put in a better position, but the kid was dealt a bad hand here in Cleveland.

Back to the topic: Guys.....whether we choose DA or Charlie......it won't matter unless we improve the offensive line and have a running game that is the staple of the offense, while {insert name here} learns and matures. It would also help if Leon and KW would do a better job of learning the play book, and if Leon learns that running crisp routes actually is important.

I won't compare the quarterbacks yet. I haven't seen enough of either. I usally need to see a guy mid-way into his third year of playing games before I make an assessment. So, while I know you guys won't cool it w/the debate over who should start.........I am maintaining that it is too early to tell. Hell, I'm not sure if either is the guy....or if both could be the guy. I caution you.....that making a final determination on a qb after a year and a half and who is playing w/sub-par talent..........could be a very, very big mistake.

I agree whole-heartedly with what you wrote. For the life of me I cannot understand how anyone can be ready to dump one QB for another after 1.5 games. As you said either one or both could be "the guy". But I really don't see how either one could be annointed as such at this time.

Look at this....Vers, Diam, Otto, and I are all agreeing. If that doesn't mean we're on to something, then it must mean that the end of the world is near. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> lol