DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns make Lombardi G.M., Farmer assistant G.M.

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Vers, seriously?

You ripped Holmgren and Shurmur THE MINUTE they were hired because you were upset Mangini was fired as you thought he was moving things in the right direction.

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Yes, seriously.

And you are telling a lie. I didn't rip The Big Show before his first FA period. I didn't rip him before his first draft. I didn't even rip him during the first season until I saw what he was up to. You know, when he came out and said "I didn't think I was going to fire Eric until I woke up this morning..." Then, I ripped him.

Don't make crap up, Memphis!

You guys seem to have the need to make everyone despise the FO because you do. You did it on the other board and you both come over here and start the same stuff. How about you give them at least one stinking year before the all-out attacks?

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Vers, with all due respect, I am not making anything up. In fact, believe it or not, your comments after the Mangini firing and subsequent Holmgren hiring were the very reason I posted regularly on the Browns chat board. You were my instant conflict. You created the Memphis Frankenstein....what were you thinking!

Sorry, but you bashed everything. You and Upbeat. From the very moment Holmgren was hired. His past in Seattle as an executive and all that. Shurmur and his few years as an OC. Sorry, but you did. Now whether that was more because Mangini was gone, I don't know. But either way, it happened or I wouldn't be a regular poster.

But I don't have a problem with it, frankly. Although I disagreed with it at the time, I don't think we need to see a draft class or a game played for anyone. For both regimes (past and current) there is/was a sample size of performance already available. The question this time around is whether or not their skills have improved over time (in Lombardi's case), or because prior work situations changed perspective (in Banner's case) or because someone is poised to take the next leap (in Chud's case).

Just a reminder to you as I know we've gotten into in a bit in the past on a prior board. I'm not the biggest Holmgren and Shurmur fan in the world. In fact, their departure is fine by me. People can be skeptical because of previous results. Like many have been in the past.

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Vers, seriously?

You ripped Holmgren and Shurmur THE MINUTE they were hired because you were upset Mangini was fired as you thought he was moving things in the right direction.

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Yes, seriously.

And you are telling a lie. I didn't rip The Big Show before his first FA period. I didn't rip him before his first draft. I didn't even rip him during the first season until I saw what he was up to. You know, when he came out and said "I didn't think I was going to fire Eric until I woke up this morning..." Then, I ripped him.

Don't make crap up, Memphis!

You guys seem to have the need to make everyone despise the FO because you do. You did it on the other board and you both come over here and start the same stuff. How about you give them at least one stinking year before the all-out attacks?

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Vers, with all due respect, I am not making anything up. In fact, believe it or not, your comments after the Mangini firing and subsequent Holmgren hiring were the very reason I posted regularly on the Browns chat board. You were my instant conflict. You created the Memphis Frankenstein....what were you thinking!

Sorry, but you bashed everything. You and Upbeat. From the very moment Holmgren was hired. His past in Seattle as an executive and all that. Shurmur and his few years as an OC. Sorry, but you did. Now whether that was more because Mangini was gone, I don't know. But either way, it happened or I wouldn't be a regular poster.

But I don't have a problem with it, frankly. Although I disagreed with it at the time, I don't think we need to see a draft class or a game played for anyone. For both regimes (past and current) there is/was a sample size of performance already available. The question this time around is whether or not their skills have improved over time (in Lombardi's case), or because prior work situations changed perspective (in Banner's case) or because someone is poised to take the next leap (in Chud's case).

Just a reminder to you as I know we've gotten into in a bit in the past on a prior board. I'm not the biggest Holmgren and Shurmur fan in the world. In fact, their departure is fine by me. People can be skeptical because of previous results. Like many have been in the past.

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well the way i remember it he didnt like the holgrem hire. didnt realy say much but wait and see. saw heckert bringing in all the 4/3 players for the 3/4 defence we were in and said it was a joke of throwing a year away.

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Vers, with all due respect, I am not making anything up. In fact, believe it or not, your comments after the Mangini firing and subsequent Holmgren hiring were the very reason I posted regularly on the Browns chat board. You were my instant conflict.

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Vers, seriously?

You ripped Holmgren and Shurmur THE MINUTE they were hired because you were upset Mangini was fired as you thought he was moving things in the right direction.

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Yes, seriously.

And you are telling a lie. I didn't rip The Big Show before his first FA period. I didn't rip him before his first draft. I didn't even rip him during the first season until I saw what he was up to. You know, when he came out and said "I didn't think I was going to fire Eric until I woke up this morning..." Then, I ripped him.

Don't make crap up, Memphis!

You guys seem to have the need to make everyone despise the FO because you do. You did it on the other board and you both come over here and start the same stuff. How about you give them at least one stinking year before the all-out attacks?

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Vers, with all due respect, I am not making anything up. In fact, believe it or not, your comments after the Mangini firing and subsequent Holmgren hiring were the very reason I posted regularly on the Browns chat board. You were my instant conflict. You created the Memphis Frankenstein....what were you thinking!

Sorry, but you bashed everything. You and Upbeat. From the very moment Holmgren was hired. His past in Seattle as an executive and all that. Shurmur and his few years as an OC. Sorry, but you did. Now whether that was more because Mangini was gone, I don't know. But either way, it happened or I wouldn't be a regular poster.

But I don't have a problem with it, frankly. Although I disagreed with it at the time, I don't think we need to see a draft class or a game played for anyone. For both regimes (past and current) there is/was a sample size of performance already available. The question this time around is whether or not their skills have improved over time (in Lombardi's case), or because prior work situations changed perspective (in Banner's case) or because someone is poised to take the next leap (in Chud's case).

Just a reminder to you as I know we've gotten into in a bit in the past on a prior board. I'm not the biggest Holmgren and Shurmur fan in the world. In fact, their departure is fine by me. People can be skeptical because of previous results. Like many have been in the past.

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well the way i remember it he didnt like the holgrem hire. didnt realy say much but wait and see. saw heckert bringing in all the 4/3 players for the 3/4 defence we were in and said it was a joke of throwing a year away.

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saw heckert bringing in all the 4/3 players for the 3/4 defence ?

Like who?

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Vers, with all due respect, I am not making anything up. In fact, believe it or not, your comments after the Mangini firing and subsequent Holmgren hiring were the very reason I posted regularly on the Browns chat board. You were my instant conflict.

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With all due respect, The Big Show was hired at the end of the 2009 season and Mangini coached under The Big Show and Heckert in 2010.

And I am going to say this once again. I did not bash Holmgren until AFTER his first season in Cleveland. I certainly didn't bash him before he even went through FA or the draft.

One more time in case I wasn't clear. The Big Show was hired a full year BEFORE Mangini was fired.

Let's not start the junk again. Okay?

Just give the new FO a little time. Just a little before you and 32 act like the world is ending. Again, they won 5, 4, and 5 games in three years. Oh my, the sky is falling!

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With the hiring of Farmer as Assistant GM, does anyone have the feeling that the organization is getting top-heavy? This FO is worrisome to me; I had more faith in Holmgren & Co. (I'm likely going to get ripped for that, but it's the way I feel).

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I won't rip you...I don't even know you.

What I will say is that I wouldn't at all characterize the organization as "top-heavy." In fact, upon reading of the hiring, I'm actually happy for it on several fronts.

The first is that the Holmgren regime was really a damned dictatorship. Heckert had some power, but at the first moment of panic from Holmgren, he'd jump out of his easy-chair and tell Heckert what to do. Everyone had their job to do and the independence to do it...right up until Holmgren decided to throw his weight around and tell them what to do.

With this regime, while people may not like the names, it appears to me to be more of a round-table forum with one guy having ultimate veto power, and I like that far more than what Holmgren kept pulling around here.

The other big aspect of this which I like is that, for good or ill, every single executive and shot-caller here are on the same page. When Mangini was here, he and Kokinis were butting heads, as was Opie and Collins. Whether or not Banner and his Band of Merry Men are going to be good remains to be seen, but the one thing that gives them the greatest collective chance of success is that they come from the same camp, share same histories, and sharing the same philosophies. They may ultimately prove to not have it, but at least all the legs of this millipede are moving in the same direction. That's exactly the way it should be. The owner is on the same page with the President, who is on the same page with the GM, who is on the same page with the AGM, who is on the same page as the scouting department, coaches, etc etc.

I view these moves in a positive conceptual way similar to when Lerner gave Butch total power: They get everything they want so that if they succeed or fail it'll be all on them. There won't be any excuses.

As for Pioli and Cassel, that was ALL Pioli. He took the Bill Bellyache model and applied to to KC, where he failed...miserably...time-and-time again. Granted, losing out on him didn't equate to us winning, but I'm glad he turned us down.

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With the hiring of Farmer as Assistant GM, does anyone have the feeling that the organization is getting top-heavy? This FO is worrisome to me; I had more faith in Holmgren & Co. (I'm likely going to get ripped for that, but it's the way I feel).

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Top heavy? Why? Do you have something against this organization trying to put qualified people in place?

We know you had more faith in The Big Show and his band of losers. Let me try and figure out why:

--Is it because The Big Show and his Merry Men were 14 and 34?

--Is it because the current regime hasn't won or lost a game yet?

--Is it because of the great drafting we had, you know, two QBs and two RBs drafted high w/in a couple of years? Drafting a stiff like Weeden in the first round? Trading up and giving away picks for a guy Minni was not going to take? Handing players jobs before they even practiced once?

--Is it because the current regime hasn't even had one FA period or draft to mess up or make good on?

--Is it because The Big Show took vacations to Arizona during the freaking season? The owner had to do interviews via email?

You, Pit, and others have a bad feeling! LMAO.....Please! Worse than 14 and 34? Here is what I think. You guys have a built-in bias against the new regime because you supported the previous regime so vigilantly and you don't dare admit you might have been wrong. God forbid!

Me? I am not sold on the new guys, but they haven't even had a draft or even went through FA yet, nevermind played a game or a season. I think I will give them a little time before I start ripping them like you and cronies do!

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Let's not start the junk again. Okay?

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'Twas not my intention to bring the "junk" to this board. The question was about the FO becoming top-heavy. My comment about Holmgren was generic; you will note that I made no specific references. Seems as though I have inadvertently stirred up a hornet's nest.

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With the hiring of Farmer as Assistant GM, does anyone have the feeling that the organization is getting top-heavy? This FO is worrisome to me; I had more faith in Holmgren & Co. (I'm likely going to get ripped for that, but it's the way I feel).

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Top heavy? Why? Do you have something against this organization trying to put qualified people in place?

We know you had more faith in The Big Show and his band of losers. Let me try and figure out why:

--Is it because The Big Show and his Merry Men were 14 and 34?

--Is it because the current regime hasn't won or lost a game yet?

--Is it because of the great drafting we had, you know, two QBs and two RBs drafted high w/in a couple of years? Drafting a stiff like Weeden in the first round? Trading up and giving away picks for a guy Minni was not going to take? Handing players jobs before they even practiced once?

--Is it because the current regime hasn't even had one FA period or draft to mess up or make good on?

--Is it because The Big Show took vacations to Arizona during the freaking season? The owner had to do interviews via email?

You, Pit, and others have a bad feeling! LMAO.....Please! Worse than 14 and 34? Here is what I think. You guys have a built-in bias against the new regime because you supported the previous regime so vigilantly and you don't dare admit you might have been wrong. God forbid!

Me? I am not sold on the new guys, but they haven't even had a draft or even went through FA yet, nevermind played a game or a season. I think I will give them a little time before I start ripping them like you and cronies do!

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I'll admit....that doesn't sound like the Vers I know, as I used to read better stuff. Going solely by the record to judge? Really?

Whatever record we put up this season, is 80% on H&H, especially if Weeden remains starter....rooks don't make much of an impact, especially since we only have 1 impact pick and any FA we bring in is thanks to the best cap situation in the league....that didn't fall from the sky, that was excellent sacrifice work done by H&H to restructure the roster from very old to very young. I actually think it's impressive that we still won as much games as the seasons before and clearly improving in competitveness....all that while spending much less, which in turn means the draft picks have been good most of the time. It's a common logic brainfart around here that people bash H&H and in turn praise the foundation of this roster...not saying you do that, but it resurfaces regularly on here.

Heckert hasn't drafted a bust yet in the top 50, TRich and Weeden are incomplete, but even if one of them busts, his top 50 picks are Haden, Ward, Taylor, Sheard, TRich, Weeden, Gordon and Schwartz...7of 8 in the top 50 is as good as it gets for ANY GM and his drafts have already produced more building blocks than the 10 drafts before him. The DL depth he's built...there are GMs out there that try for a decade to get anything close to that. We had one of the youngest DL and still were at least AVG with major upside as these guys still have to hit their prime years

I really hate it how soon people forget that last year was the 1st season where we were in pretty much ANY game, often losing by that lack of experience/smarts that'll come with time. That to me was also a product of a clubhouse philosophy to reward own players with good contracts...there was a good structure in place and respected vets like Thomas, DQwell and Dawson all praised this well beyond PR-talk.

In many ways Haslam, Banner and Lombardi will reap what H&H have sawn. I for one won't just stupidly attach records to regime, I'll watch which players will produce that record...and if those players were brought in by H&H, they deserve credit too. I didn't care much for Shurmur, so maybe better coaching does the trick, but to trash Heckert's drafting, which has been by far the best we've seen in a while, is short sighted at best imho.

This roster can easily win 8 games, it should have last season vs a strong schedule...in fact, with more experience and expected growth and 1-3 starters out of FA that's what I (and most on here) expect for 2013. Banner and Lombardi pretty much only can mess it up, they've inherited a golden situation with many young building blocks and tons of cap space both short and long term.

I agree with you that they haven't done much yet and I've said all along I'll wait for this FA and draft to assess them and my opinions on pretty much all prospects is out there, so I won't hindsight bash anyone.I'll quickly know for myself if they're anywhere close to Mangini or Heckert and those 2 quickly had my mistrust/trust after their 1st offseason. My guess is they're closer to Mangini (though not nearly as bad) as they've shown time and again that they have no clue how to evaluate players and prospects. Heckert has a good rep and track record around the league, Lombardi doesn't...that's fact and that's probably why some posters don't have the faith that this somehow magically changed over night...count me as one of those skeptics

So now Lombardi is officially GM...nice PR and snake job by Banner, who sneaked him in with the euphoria the day they hired Horton and now moved him to the position every Brownsfan was horrified
with just 2 months ago...how quickly people forget

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Vers, with all due respect, I am not making anything up. In fact, believe it or not, your comments after the Mangini firing and subsequent Holmgren hiring were the very reason I posted regularly on the Browns chat board. You were my instant conflict.

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With all due respect, The Big Show was hired at the end of the 2009 season and Mangini coached under The Big Show and Heckert in 2010.

And I am going to say this once again. I did not bash Holmgren until AFTER his first season in Cleveland. I certainly didn't bash him before he even went through FA or the draft.

One more time in case I wasn't clear. The Big Show was hired a full year BEFORE Mangini was fired.

Let's not start the junk again. Okay?

Just give the new FO a little time. Just a little before you and 32 act like the world is ending. Again, they won 5, 4, and 5 games in three years. Oh my, the sky is falling!

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--Is it because The Big Show and his Merry Men were 14 and 34?

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One other little tidbit..the HC won't be reporting to Lombardi, but Banner, and I'd rather have it that way.
But you're right on some things..I didn't like the way MH thrusted himself in the draft but then other times decided to stay on the island away from everyone.
Learning who TH had rated and who we took at that spot just shows how he had no clue how to do his job.

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Now we get someone from the Chiefs whose entire FO and coaching staff were cleaned out due to poor performance.

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Now we get someone from the Chiefs whose entire FO and coaching staff were cleaned out due to poor performance.

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Pit...I like the move. As for the Chiefs I think the key here is they had 6 Pro-Bowlers last year regardless of the Losses. I think the personnel acquired was not the failure there.

For me I really feared the unknown n with Banner/Lombardi heading the bill there was so much as unknown...nothing perfect but I love the Coaching Staff we got...The Systems we are choosing to start the Continuity with, n a lot of moves they are making have me more n more comfortable with them running the show. Will asses them more after FA/Draft. Farmer looks to be a first rate move that should help finish building the Team which has a decent young drafted foundation to build on!

JMHO

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I absolutely think the talent acquired was the problem. But it's not Farmer fault necessarily. I put all blame on Pioli.

- Trading for Cassel and a washed up Vrabel for a second rounder?
- Top 50 draft picks of Glenn Dorsey, Tyson Jackson, Dexter McCluster, John Baldwin, & Hudson? Umm, what?
- The jury is still out on Poe and Allen as they were drafted last year, but in no way am I impressed.
- Only Eric Berry, the no-brainer, to show for his early draft picks.

Man, and people wanted Pioli to come here after Heckert was let go?!? Yikes!

All those Pro Bowlers came from the drafts of Carl Peterson minus Berry. I guess we could look into players signed or re-signed to get a sense of Farmer's work perhaps. But in the end I don't weigh the Chiefs failures on Farmer. Just Pioli when it came to talent. He failed miserably.

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The more I think about this hire of Farmer, the more relieved I am starting to feel. I wasn't real thrilled with Banner and Lombardi standing alone regarding personnel. One was scorned by losing personnel power in Philly and has a axe to grind. The other hasn't been in the league in five years and has been part of horrible drafts.

My hope is that Farmer can add a legitimate voice regarding the draft and FA signings since he's been doing this as a job since he's stopped playing. I hope this guy is an up n comer. It seems like he's moved up the ranks rather quickly.

Good luck, Farmer. You may need it.

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I guess some things never change. Whatever. You three can carry on w/your hate for the new regime over here. I really need to let it go. It's old.

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I guess some things never change. Whatever. You three can carry on w/your hate for the new regime over here. I really need to let it go. It's old.

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I agree to a moratorium on the subject of the old/new regimes...

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Then what will happen to man's quest for knowledge?

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I guess some things never change. Whatever. You three can carry on w/your hate for the new regime over here. I really need to let it go. It's old.

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I agree to a moratorium on the subject of the old/new regimes...

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Then what will happen to man's quest for knowledge?

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There are some things we should never know

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I guess some things never change. Whatever. You three can carry on w/your hate for the new regime over here. I really need to let it go. It's old.

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I agree to a moratorium on the subject of the old/new regimes...

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Then what will happen to man's quest for knowledge?

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There are some things we should never know

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--Is it because The Big Show and his Merry Men were 14 and 34?

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--Is it because of the great drafting we had, you know, two QBs and two RBs drafted high w/in a couple of years? Drafting a stiff like Weeden in the first round? Trading up and giving away picks for a guy Minni was not going to take? Handing players jobs before they even practiced once?

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--Is it because the current regime hasn't even had one FA period or draft to mess up or make good on?

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You, Pit, and others have a bad feeling! LMAO.....Please!

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Here is what I think. You guys have a built-in bias against the new regime because you supported the previous regime so vigilantly and you don't dare admit you might have been wrong. God forbid!

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Me? I am not sold on the new guys, but they haven't even had a draft or even went through FA yet, nevermind played a game or a season. I think I will give them a little time before I start ripping them like you and cronies do!

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While you weren't here, I stated from the beginning that Banner was going to be hired and voiced my concerns about that even before he was hired. You can look at the downward spiral of Philly the last few years Banner was there. You can look at Lombardi's former drafts.

I have said all along that I hope I'm wrong here. That would be best for all Browns fans. But I do believe. as most people do, that a resume' is something to be strongly considered when you form an opinion of what to expect from someone when they are hired to a position.

To ignore that is what I would consider to be foolish. Pardon me if I factor that into the equasion as to what I expect from this FO. It has nothing to do with the last regime with the acception that I do feel Heckert was far more qualified that Lombardi is and look where that got us.

But the whole, "I'm not sold yet" theory is a very non-committal middle ground that leaves plenty of room to defend people now and attack them later. Kind of wishy washy but good strategy from a message board point of view.

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Pit...I like the move. As for the Chiefs I think the key here is they had 6 Pro-Bowlers last year regardless of the Losses. I think the personnel acquired was not the failure there.

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For me I really feared the unknown n with Banner/Lombardi heading the bill there was so much as unknown...nothing perfect but I love the Coaching Staff we got...The Systems we are choosing to start the Continuity with, n a lot of moves they are making have me more n more comfortable with them running the show. Will asses them more after FA/Draft. Farmer looks to be a first rate move that should help finish building the Team which has a decent young drafted foundation to build on!

JMHO

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I should wait till the draft is over but although I disliked the Lombardi hire, there (SO FAR) is something I feel is different than the other regimes that were in place..I'm not sure it's going to work but it feels like it just might .

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I felt the same way under the last regime of Holmgren and Heckert,,,, turned out it was just indigestion

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Even with them , this feels different.
Holmy didn't have that edge to him, and it was known he was not a FO person...he proved that.

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You do realize I was kidding right

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Lets see, so if things remain consistent, Haslam has gone on record as stating that the modifications to the uniform won't include a logo on the helmet.

Get ready for Brownie on the sides of the helmet. Or, possibly a mean, agressive depiction of Banner.

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Get ready for Brownie on the sides of the helmet. Or, possibly a mean, agressive depiction of Banner.

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how are those different things?

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lol'd at Spirit and Vers at it again.







I am not sure how Farmer and Lombardi are going to work but I love the idea of getting Farmer in the fold. He is the guy I wanted to BE our GM.

Recent playing experience, recent player peronell role in the NFL to evauluate free agent pickups and pro players. Wheras Lombardi has been scouting mostly college guys the past decade.

Love it.

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One other little tidbit..the HC won't be reporting to Lombardi, but Banner, and I'd rather have it that way.
But you're right on some things..I didn't like the way MH thrusted himself in the draft but then other times decided to stay on the island away from everyone.
Learning who TH had rated and who we took at that spot just shows how he had no clue how to do his job.

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I like the way it's set up with Chud answering to Banner.


No doubt Homie got involved. After he blew the deal with RGIII, he panicked and started trading picks that didn't make sense and pulling the rug from under Heck by insisting on taking Weeden when we did rather than wait for our 2nd round pick.

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