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jc personally I loved BB and no problem with him benching Bernie (and I lived just SE of Boardman  ). IMO his down fall was he inability to work the media and I THINK Modell saw that as a major black eye to the marketability of his product and hence a hit on his wallet.
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A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
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A new front office and coaching staff, to me, means a bit of a moneymoon period until I see what they are going to do here and now.
Face it, Belichick wasn't great when he was in Cleveland back in the early to mid 90s. He was set in his ways, inflexible, and unwilling to change.
Then he learned how to adjust, accept suggestions from his other coaches, even play different defensive alignments entirely. He went from a coach who wanted to run the ball on every down to an a coach who features an attacking passing game. He went from wanting to control every play to allowing Brady to call plays at the line and change plays at will.
He learned in that period in between his time in Cleveland, and his hiring in New England.
I think all this is purely something you want to believe. You seriously need to go back and look at the number of coaches just in 91-95 era who went on and had successful careers. Here are a few: Rick Venturi, Jim Schwartz, Kirk Ferentz, Jim Bates, Nick Saban, Ozzie Newsome, Thomas Dimitroff, Scott Pioli, Mike Tannenbaum, and Eric Mangini. I'm sure I'm missing a few. You're stating Belichick carried 10 men.
Belichick was hated by the media. Hmm, you wonder how Mangini fell out of favor! Every move he made was scrutinized. He inherited a 3-13 team and in four years he made it a leading franchise in the NFL. So much so, Cleveland was predicted to win the super bowl in 95. Give me a little inflexibility now. Look what Holmgren accomplished in 3. Belichick was nearly a .500 team in his third year.
Haslam/Lombardi/Banner/Chud have nearly the same. They are few players away from a .500 team. Just think, Lombardi was part of group involved in building the Browns. I am hoping he was instrumental during that time. At least there are a strong presence of football minds similar to back then.
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Belichick really had no idea how to handle people when he was in Cleveland. He did strictly stick to his philosophies as well.
The Belichick in New England is not the same man. He has run a 3-4 defense ... and a 4-3 defense ....... he has run the ball more ...... and he has almost exclusively passed the ball. He has learned to play to his team's strengths far better than he ever did in Cleveland.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Lerner gone = good ....
Haslam in = when he realizes he needs to keep his ass in the owners box and hire good people i think he will have a shot ..
Walrus gone = good ... he did nuttin to impress me as a guy running the org. ..
Banner in = hes the one responsible for Lombardi .. and unless Lombardi is rare spoiled milk carton that when u put it back in the fridge its good the next day ... hes a BAFOON to ... just a different type of Bafoon than the Walrus was ...
heck gone = neither here nor there until we hired his replacement .. MAJOR DOWNGRADE ...
Lombardi = if i had my druthers we'd fire him today and put just about anyone else in the world in his place ..
hopefully he proves me wrong and he is that rare carton of milk .. i'd love to eat crow on this one ... my guess is the day the door hits him in the ass will be a good one ..
Shurmer/Childress/Jauron gone = GREAT .... Shurmer was in so far over his head the bubbles never even made it to the surface .... never liked Childress ... liked Jauron but he had to go ...
Chud/Turner/Horton = MAJOR MAJOR UPGRADE .. by far the best staff we've had since our return and its not even close ... only potential downfall is Chud not being a good HC but everything says he has a good chance to become a good one ..
hopefully these 3 can overcome the obstacles upper mgmt. has put in there place .. the main problem here is that the obstacle is the upper mgmt ... *L* ...
I agree with this 100% and the ironic part is that most of the posters on here would, but for whatever reasons still are trying hard to keep regime agenda battles alive. Is it so hard to say the past regime had some good and bad and that this regime so far has done some good and bad...and then list all of those? I think that's as fair as it gets....good, accurate post Diam
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...are trying hard to keep regime agenda battles alive
 I've seen the "light". Regarding Diam's post - the new coaching staff should be a vast improvement over the previous, although I was sorry to see Jauron go...
Last edited by bbrowns32; 03/22/13 06:38 AM.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I was thinking Al Davis. I don't think the Rooneys are all that hands on. But for the most part Diam is correct. The only one in the last decade or two was Jones in Dallas, and he wasn't as hands on when they were winning. Once Johnson was out of the way and Jones took over in full, they haven't done squat.
The Rooneys are VERY hands on. One family member is Player Personal Coordinator.
http://www.steelers.com/team/front-office.html
Al Davis was very involved and back in the day, very successful but of course recent years prior to his passing, His value was lost.
But I get what Diam is saying, Davis and the Rooneys are about it.
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hehe...you got to come back.
1. Hands on thing...I'm talking More than Randy...I'm talking involved as opposed to "Oxen" Japanese for wife...literal translation is - Deep in the Cave. Not Jones level making himself the GM. I'm talking (Atlanta's owner forgot his name) working with Dimitroff in whatever he needs. So as for "LIKING" the hands on thing...I'm was not looking for him to be THE GUY...he named Banner for that. But he would be around as a Check n Balance thing. What if there is a key decision that Chud n Banner disagree on - Haslam in that meeting could step in n side w/Chud. Which before we were told Haslam would be around attending discussion. Now its Banner's way or NO WAY. That kind of Hands On...not take over the team like Jones n become the GM.
2. Holmgren...I thought he was a pretty smart guy. He brought Seattle out of no where into a winner there also so not just a GB lucky situation guy. Not successful FO in Seattle didn't matter to me cause he was the HC very understandable not able to handle both. There is only one BB. I also knew he had that Ron Wolf influence which I believed in. His first year he did a lot more than pick Heckert. Read the Book he followed Wolf's plan to a tee. But after the first year he stood back n did pretend HC stuff without the Time needed also said his #1 priority was to get that QB. And I truly believed he tried. Just not in the right place right time kind of thing.
Shurmur Hire...you cannot believe how my BUBBLE POPPED ON that - oh in my usual style I looked at the Positives n tried to stop the madness on the Browns Board of negativity. But inside I got soooo deflated. Especially when Gruden Offered his services n Holmgren talked him out of it due to Mumbo Jumbo but now I know it was cause Holmgren couldn't dictate his Offense. I'm like Huh...some will say well Chud is just as inexperienced...the exception is as OC Chud has had SUCCESS! Shurmur had not. Wolf said HC must be a Superstar. Not already experienced as a HC could be an OC like Holmgren was. So I'm like ok Shurmur is his Holmgren but then I looked at his success in St. Louis n HE SUCKED. Where is this super star. And I put this decision on Heckert as much as Holmgren.
3. Banner? You haven't seen any of his Pressers...go to the Browns site n look into the media stuff for past Pressers. Not only to see him visually (easy to presume he's a snake) but so far he has said what he will do n has kept to it pretty close...so worth the study.
4. You pretty much contradicted yourself. You give Banner a D - because of the Lombardi hire. But then in the next quote you acknowledge the key to Banner is if he is Brilliant ( we're screwed if he's a dim bulb) Lombardi would be the perfect marriage. So this to me would be an A or worst case B of a hire. You acknowledge this would be the perfect marriage n it had nothing to do with Lombardi but Banner. ???
I too have no clue on Banner but so far he has put forth a plan (go to those pressers) n has kept to it. I don't see a Massive change in Personnel to get THEIR GUYS in as we have seen in every Regime Change.
5. (Talent) Again pat on the back to Heckert. Not a bevy of Pro-Bowlers every where but so many, close to 30 young guys that are RELEVANT regardless of the Regime n they Believe in the BROWNS...I always thought once a player hits FA n changes team - A sense of INNOCENCE has been stripped. The college RAH RAH they have for THEIR TEAM is broken never to be the same cause now its a BUSINESS. Well these 30 young guys are basically fresh from RAH RAH n hooked up with the Browns (a few like Robertson who came here as a released player picked up after 1 year in the NFL) but young enough to be Rah Rah with the other 30 INTO THE BROWNS. this is what I love about the FOUNDATION.
They might not be all starters...but there are not many Bums! So you look at each one as an individual and assess their talent n think what the heck does Eotab see??? But you have to understand I'm looking at them on a whole there is strength in UNITY. I'm looking at all those Building blocks TOGETHER. not as individual blocks. Just trying to have you see my logic not necessary need you to agree. My premise is now we have this YOUNG FOUNDATION n its a legit foundation...we can take an Individual block that we see as weak n UPGRADE on it. But until you are able to build that "Legit" foundation you cannot get to that 2nd stage of Upgrades.
For the first time we got that legit drafted foundation...I think we agree on that in principle since you have acknowledge this it the best environment (personnel wise) for a new Regime.
That plus this Coaching staff n don't forget the scheme. There is not one defensive player MADE in the WORLD that will think...MAN, Attack??? this Stinks! If you play defense n you are told you will be ATTACKING not reacting. There is an excitement by ALL!!!
Offense...Vertical Stretch - finally, so so important with our tools OL n RB n good young WRs. And I'm sure we will also go Horizontal stretch...Its making space which is so important. Its why all this spread O are having success. Weeden is a big key for the initial success but he seems to fit. Most other pieces are in place. Young so development is not fully defined. OL very very good n we kept Warhop to groom the future OL coach Sullivan. Bringing continuity to the OL!
So theory I'm gaga in our new systems. Coaching which I think we are excellent at - will define the Execution of the systems 
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Al Davis and Jerry Jones have Super Bowl rings....and I don't think you can get any more hands on than that. Of course their mighty egos eventually brought them down, but they had their hands in the dough when their teams were winning.
Al Davis is a good one .... forgot about him .... he is old school though ... and by that I mean he was an owner at a young age and he grew up with the game and it was his life in that it was SOLE BUSINESS .... the guys today are different ... they were masters in what ever field they were in and bought football teams with money they earned in sumptin they knew a lot about ...
so ya ... Davis is the exception ...
The Rooney's????? ... in my best Jim More high pitched voice .. "The Rooney's" ... IMO there one of the least hands on owners in the league ... they hire there HC and let him run with the show ... when they brought tomlin in they didn't force him to keep lebuae and run the 3-4 ... it was up to tomlin ...
the only time the Rooney's ever say anything is if one of there players is being stupid off the field or its a contract situation like they did with Wallace last year .. naaa .. I just don't see it ...
Peen was right with Jones .. he bought the team and hired the hair .. let him run things and win him a couple super bowls .. his ego then told him he knew enough about the game and wanted to run the show so he basically forced the hair out ... they SUCKED until he decided to bring in the tuna .. the tuna ran the whole shebang and got them respectful again and JJ just couldn't leave well enough alone and he came out and he started to try and step on the tunas toes and the tuna boogied on out of town .. and now they SUCK again ..
but I see tabber meant being hands on in a different manner than I did ,.,... so this is all mute .. wil;l respond to tabber when I get some time ...
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A new front office and coaching staff, to me, means a bit of a moneymoon period until I see what they are going to do here and now.
I agree to some extent ... I will give them every chance here (like we have a choice .. *L*) ... but I won't completely ignore there histories either .. and Lombardi's is UGLY ...
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Face it, Belichick wasn't great when he was in Cleveland back in the early to mid 90s. He was set in his ways, inflexible, and unwilling to change.
Then he learned how to adjust, accept suggestions from his other coaches, even play different defensive alignments entirely. He went from a coach who wanted to run the ball on every down to an a coach who features an attacking passing game. He went from wanting to control every play to allowing Brady to call plays at the line and change plays at will.
He learned in that period in between his time in Cleveland, and his hiring in New England.
My hope is that this is what has happened with Lombardi as well. I don't know whether it has or not, and neither does anyone else out in the world of fandom. I have heard several national people whose football opinions I respect fervently defend Lombardi, and say that he is as well informed and knowledgeable a guy as there is in the game. Hopefully that's the case. I can't change it, whether it is, or is not .... so I choose to hope that he will be what many have said he is.
Apples to Oranges ... I mean according to that philosophy Colt McCoy could be Joe Montana cause they were both drafted in the 3rd round .. there's always an example depending on how far u want to reach ...
the one question I have Y-Town about all the people praising him ... Billicheck was one of them ... well if Lombardi is such a hard working, knowledgeable fella then why didn't Billicheck hire him or even bring him in for an interview?? .. the amount of praise heaped upon this guy compared to the fact hes been out of the league for 4 or 5 years MAKES NO SENSE!!!! at least not to me it don't .. now granted sometimes people slip through the cracks .. but I followed the guy on his website and watched him on the NFL network and he was BRUTAL in his evaluations of players .. just BRUTAL ...
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I like the signings we have made thus far. I like the Kruger signing. I think that he will be a massive upgrade for us at OLB. I love the Bryant signing more and more with each passing day. I think that he will wind up being a steal for us. Groves should be, at the very least, an excellent backup/situations player. The TE I know little about, but he looks like a blocker type.
Overall though, I am quite pleased with our free agency activity this year. As far as Kruger, it seems as though he really didn;t do a lot in his 1st 3 years. He was learning and developing. Then last year he had more tackles than he had in his entire career to that point, and more sacks than he had to that point in his career. He then went and had a great post-season to boot. He also played through a back injury early on last year. People say that he didn't do much until Suggs came back, but it's also quite possible that he recovered from injury and then took off. Face it, Suggs didn't do a whole lot last year.
the only signing I don't like is Kruger .. and its cause we paid way to much for him IMO ... I like the Bryant signing .. and don't know enough about the other two to really have a valid opinion ....
but if your happy with the signings then I can see why you are fine with whats going on ...
and hopefully your right and i'm wrong .. then we both win .. the browns are good and u don't have to listen to me .. *L* ..
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Seriously?
Okay...honest question: How could he do any worse? 
well it would be real hard BUT it is possible ... if the walrus hired say someone like Coke instead of Heck .... that would have been worse ... no? ..
but besides that ... not doing worse doesn't necessarily mean doing better ... subtle yet huge difference .. *L* ..
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If you give me two guys who squander their millions and can't make a good decision no matter what, but one cares and the other doesn't, well, I think you know where I'm going.
I would agree .... UNLESS the one that cared wasn't intelligent enough to hire good football people and let them do there jobs ... Lou Holtz had a great quote about speed .... he said "speeds great unless u don't know where your going cause all it does then is get u to the wrong place quicker" ... U can't help but love Lou ... *L*
these are Jimmy's first shot at hiring his football people ... he did a great job with the coaches (thank god his first 3 or 4 choices said to take a hike ,.,..) .... hopefully he does better with his 2nd set of FO hires ...
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We do know that Banner has been a great guy in terms of cap management and the finances, and we at least can speculate that he's done some things right in terms of managing the players because the Eagles couldn't have stayed on top as long as they did if a guy as prominent as Banner wasn't doing things right.
Now I assume you mean with the talent evaluation stuff, to which I'd say I somewhat agree. I believed that Banner had more input on that side of the equation with the Eagles than he'd been given credit for, and in recent weeks that proved to be true. Beyond that? I can at least say I like the idea of having NFL football guys like Chud and Norv sitting in the room. Don't get me started on Lombardi, though. If there's ever been a "prove it" guy to me it's him...
I agree with the cap and finance stuff ....
speculating he did some things right to keep them as good as they were for as long as they were .... OK ... if u wanna do that ... fine ... I choose to just admit I don't know as I'm not a big fan of that much speculation ... and remember if u wanna give him credit for the good times ... u gotta give him blame for the bad ... U can't have it both ways bro ...
I'm Assuming we agree on the coaching staff as u didn't say anything about it ... and as usual u rip someone when there wrong but never give credit when the re right .. and u wonder why it took me so long to come back ....
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As I understand things, New England either just lost, or is losing their GM. Lombardi probably would have been heading there if he was still available.
Belichick used Lombardi for scouting and such in an informal way while he was at the NFLN. That must mean that he trusts him to some degree.
Look, I wasn't crazy about the Lombardi hiring ..... but he is one piece of the puzzle. He's not the final word ..... it's not a dictatorship where he decides who we pick ... it's a collective where the front office and head coach (and probably coordinators) will work together .... especially at the top of the draft. I can live with giving him a chance in that role. (like you said, and I have said in the past ...... as if we have a choice in the matter)
I like the Kruger signing because we basically signed him for 5 years at a max of $8 million per season. The contract appears to be sensibly constructed to allow the player to play it all the way out, assuming that he performs as we hope.
One reason why I am excited about Kruger is because of his pass rushing abilities. He played the first part of last season with a severe back injury, and from reports, had to have the trainers help him with his shoes because he could not do so for himself. (man do I know what that feels like) Anyway, a back injury of that nature would probably take about 5-7 weeks to properly heal, and that is about when he started to come on. People bring up Suggs, but he wasn't much of a factor for the Ravens last year. He only had something like 1 sack last year for the Ravens.
Back to Kruger's contract ...... he is the kind of guy who might have received $10-12 million per year in prior seasons. To me, $8 million flat per year for 5 years is almost a bargain.
He might have received a deal like the Dolphins gave Mike Wallace. Wallace received a 5 year, $60 million deal. He got a signing bonus of $11 million. He is going to have some hefty cap costs after his "bargain salary" this year. His 2014 salary is $14 million, so his cap cost will be over $16.2 million, depending on his other bonuses. That's a tough number to swallow. He'll then drop back to the $11.5 to $13.7 million range per year in cap cost for the final 3 years.
He could be hard to keep long term. I don't see such a problen with Kruger or Bryant.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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What makes you think BB still won't use Lombardi...n not even have to pay him. 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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All Pro
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well if you look at are main competion we are below average.
cincinati signed michael johnson I wouldnt trade kruger.and geathers for him.
indy by all accounts out signed us.
banner verses me i trade a 4th get talib pick up elvis contract.
draft zz and mc donald safety
my defensive line sheard,zz,ruben,elvis.
linebackers jackson,jmj,stand zz up on run plays put in taylor.
I will be happy to play against chuds offense after all he only produced one winning year as a oc.
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Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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I was thinking the exact same thing.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Hey Kendall.
I guess instead of changing up his style at all. He just figured worse grammar would disguise it...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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AFC free agency winners and losers By Gregg Rosenthal Around The League Editor Published: March 22, 2013 at 12:46 p.m. Updated: March 24, 2013 at 11:44 p. After 10 days of action, let's break down what we liked in free agency, what we didn't like and everything in between. AFC is up first. Boom or bust Cleveland Browns: The Browns guaranteed $35 million for two players that have 23 career starts combined: Paul Kruger and Desmond Bryant. That usually doesn't work out well. I hope I'm wrong. (For Marc Sessler's sake.) Link
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> Quote:
AFC free agency winners and losers
Cleveland Browns: The Browns guaranteed $35 million for two players that have 23 career starts combined: Paul Kruger and Desmond Bryant. That usually doesn't work out well. I hope I'm wrong. (For Marc Sessler's sake.)
Link
Burn... if we didn't pay Kruger, he'd have gotten his money elsewhere though.
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So would Bryant.
People were excited because we got Kruger CHEAPER than originally though..
Some freak occurrence happens (name the last time it has, if ever) and suddenly it's a bad move?
Ridiculous.
It's moments like these I'm glad I'm ganna be gone for the next nine months. This board is crazy..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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So would Bryant.
People were excited because we got Kruger CHEAPER than originally though..
Some freak occurrence happens (name the last time it has, if ever) and suddenly it's a bad move?
Ridiculous.
It's moments like these I'm glad I'm ganna be gone for the next nine months. This board is crazy..
Fan ... Short for FANATIC!!!  
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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As I understand things, New England either just lost, or is losing their GM. Lombardi probably would have been heading there if he was still available.
I may believe that if it wasn't for the fact that when Pioli left to go to KC Lombardi was available .. and he was 3 or 4 years less removed from his last nfl job ....
so why would i believe if Billicheck had no interest in him when he was a year or two removed from his last nfl job would he be interested in him when hes 4 - 6 years removed from his last nfl job ..
i'm an actions speak louder than words kinda guy .. and billichecks words here don't align with his actions ..
lets hope your right on Kruger ... not buying that either ...
the best part is we'll find out on both of these over the next 3 - 5 years ... heres to u being right bro .. cause that'll make us both alot happier than vice versa ...
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For the most part we weren't on the same page when talking about the "hands on" thing .. i meant involved in the day to day running of the team and u meant alot less involved if i'm reading u right ... a few things i did want to mention though .. - I don't want him being the tiebreaker guy ... no way in hell .. what experience does he have that makes him a good tiebreaker if were deciding weather someone is a good fit for us either talent or scheme wise ... naaaa .. he has no right being the tirbreaker IMO .. owning does not mean u know what the hell your doing .. get someone with a football backround in the there to be the tiebreaker .. - and if its banners way or the highway .. thats not good either .. dictatorships are hardly ever a good way to go ... very few dictators in this business have ever done it well ... u can count them on one hand .... - I agree on U on Chud vs Shurmer .. the Shurmer hire never made any sense to me ... Chud has excelled each step up the ladder .. Shurmer wasn't ever a success as an OC ... just look at who else interviewed Chud and Shurmer for HCing jobs before they were hired .. Chud had other teams interested in him where as for Shurmer is was us or no one ... Quote:
4. You pretty much contradicted yourself. You give Banner a D - because of the Lombardi hire. But then in the next quote you acknowledge the key to Banner is if he is Brilliant ( we're screwed if he's a dim bulb) Lombardi would be the perfect marriage. So this to me would be an A or worst case B of a hire. You acknowledge this would be the perfect marriage n it had nothing to do with Lombardi but Banner. ???
I see how u mioght think that but its because your combining two sentances that are mutually exclusive .. *L* ..
I said I WOULD GIVE HIM a D- based on the Lombardi hire .. then I was aknowliding if your theory was right ( a theory i don't agree with) that the way u think things are structured and how there gonna work then the lombardi hire makes sense .. I JUST DON'T THINK HOW U SEE THINGS WORKING IS HOW THERE ACTUALLY GOING TO WORK ... and even if they did work the way u want .. i don't like making a grunt the corporal .. the grunts do the legwork and the officers make the decisions based off that legwork .. i've never seen the grunt near the top .. there always at the bottom ..
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They might not be all starters...but there are not many Bums! So you look at each one as an individual and assess their talent n think what the heck does Eotab see??? But you have to understand I'm looking at them on a whole there is strength in UNITY. I'm looking at all those Building blocks TOGETHER. not as individual blocks. Just trying to have you see my logic not necessary need you to agree.
Always understood your logic bro .. just never thought we had the talent to be any good no matter how well they worked together ...
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My premise is now we have this YOUNG FOUNDATION n its a legit foundation...we can take an Individual block that we see as weak n UPGRADE on it. But until you are able to build that "Legit" foundation you cannot get to that 2nd stage of Upgrades.
For the first time we got that legit drafted foundation...I think we agree on that in principle since you have acknowledge this it the best environment (personnel wise) for a new Regime
Yes ... for the first time since our return we agree on the fact we have a decent foundation ... this is by far the best base of talent we've had for a regime change .. if thats what u think ... were 100% in agreement ..
we also agree on the coaching staff .. now if we can just get a better FO we'd have nuttin to talk about .. 
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