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I'll agree with the caveat that I hate how they have failed to address what I consider to be our biggest need: secondary.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I'll agree with the caveat that I hate how they have failed to address what I consider to be our biggest need: secondary.
I guess the only way to look at it is that they have a plan and we aren't seeing it yet.
#GMSTRONG
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I guess the only way to look at it is that they have a plan and we aren't seeing it yet.
No, it's not the only way to look at it but it's certainly the most hopeful way of looking at it.
And on this board? If you look at it any other way, God help you!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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This draft is loaded in defensive back talent. I think people developed tunnel vision on Millner but a lot of those kids drafted in the 2nd and 3rd rounds are going to be starting come opening day. I vote for bringing back Sheldon for another year whether we draft a rookie or not.
Anyway, I think we may see a massive trade on draft day and people may want to start getting familiar with a lot of these 2nd and 3rd round corners and safeties. I think the 49ers are going to go all in and we will trade.
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I guess the only way to look at it is that they have a plan and we aren't seeing it yet.
No, it's not the only way to look at it but it's certainly the most hopeful way of looking at it.
And on this board? If you look at it any other way, God help you!
I've always been a glass half full kinda guy.. no surprise there... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I try to look at both sides of things. I thought Heckert was slowly building this thing the right way but he made some really stupid moves, even though a couple ended up working out. Drafting WArd and Hardesty in the 2nd and 3rd was stupid. Weeden in the first, trading up to 3 for a RB oo that was dumb.
It is funny but when you look at a lot of what Heckert did, they fit Chud better than Pat lol. Now someone reading me for the first time would probably think I was a Heckert hater instead of one of his strongest supporters.
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Haslam, Banner and Lombardi are full of crap but they did make some good coaching hires and I cant argue with their off season moves.
Let's look at that "good coaching hires"for a moment.
They hired Chud,whom we all like because he did an outstanding job as an OC when he was last.
By all accounts Chud was the 2nd and by some reports their 3rd choice.So we applaud them because the pooch got screwed with Kelly and the Arizona HC,who's name escapes me at the moment.
Turner wouldn't be here without Chud,so we can't say Haslam/Banner did anything with that.
Horton,who really knows.Perhaps the FO introduced him to Chud,or maybe Chud knew and liked him all along.
Yes we can say they hired good coaches.But,had they been left to their own devices we would have Kelly and whomever coaching.
In essence,we are saying hoorah for screwing up,now we have a coach that most of us like.Now that is a back handed compliment.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I had pretty much the same impression of Heckert. In fact, I kinda thought he was the kind of GM that could find whatever a coach wanted. Be it Shurmur or now Chud. I thought he was that good.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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And on this board? If you look at it any other way, God help you!
The sad and unfortunate reality is the cheerleading, praise-every-move gang are the ones that have been wrong every year. No idea what they are so arrogant about...5-11?
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Not sure if it was BAnner or Haslam that was gaga for Kelly but Lombardi has been a huge Chud pimp. If you watch a lot of NFL total access over the years, Lombardi (as much as he bashed everything BRowns) has praised everything Chud.
Kelly was the hire I expected this regime to make and a lot of that was because these were people I wanted to dislike. Hiring Kelly would have been another reason to dislike them. I think you have to applaud them for backing away from Kelly. Kelly was the guy a lot of people have shown interest in over the last couple of years.
I really do hate defending these guys but they are making a lot of the moves, I would have made.
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And on this board? If you look at it any other way, God help you!
The sad and unfortunate reality is the cheerleading, praise-every-move gang are the ones that have been wrong every year. No idea what they are so arrogant about...5-11?
How do you know what anyone on this board said before three weeks ago?
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The whole Kelly story and who jilted who boils down to a matter of interpretation. At the end of the day,he's in Philly.
Now if Lombardi is a big Chud supporter,then we should be thanking him for what I suspect will be a great hire.
I believe the FO has done a very good job this FA period.Not for the players they've signed,although I do like the 2 LBs,but for showing constraint.It would have been very easy to spend,spend,spend which they haven't done.Unless your team is coming off a SB win,cap hell is not a good place to be.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Public Enemy said it best.... Don't believe the Hype.
This is no different than previous rebuilds. The regime is taking this year to evaluate existing players to see if they can make them fit and it is in large part due to not being able to replace everybody that may not fit in a single offseason.
People that clearly are not in the plans in any way are being released or traded. People that are borderline, but have some promise are being given a year to see how they work out. It's the smart way to approach it for sure, but make no mistake, it IS a rebuild.
I will disagree... the Mangini rebuild was done with over the hill marginal veterans that had limited potential and were on the downside of their careers... I don't think that anyone survived into last year. Mangini's weakness was that he placed too much faith in those players at the expense of younger players... Of course his drafting left him without a choice.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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j/c
I don't understand the preoccupation with the notion of rebuilding or not rebuilding. From my point of view its a distinction without a difference. The Browns have been a bad to middling football team for a long time. They get a new owner who is inclined to impose his own vision on the organization. With those circumstances what other than the present course of action could be undertaken?
You can argue the specifics of one acquisition or another. You can argue the pace of change. You can even argue if their stated aims vary from their actions. But the course of action, the arc of transforming this football team into a winner cannot skip the clumbsy but essential steps of upgrading the quality of players on the team.
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... the Mangini rebuild was done with over the hill marginal veterans that had limited potential and were on the downside of their careers...
Mangini never got much time/chance to rebuild. First he had to rid the team of the "cancers" and to accumulate draft picks. In order to institute his system, he had to bring in (marginal) veterans who he could plug-n-play. Eventually they would have been replaced with quality drafted players...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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And where are .... Robinske, MoMass, and Viekune.
Mangini was pathetic.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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And where are .... Robinske, MoMass, and Viekune.
Mangini was pathetic.
Note that I said "quality" players. I didn't mean to imply that he had a good draft (as it turned out) that year...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Hmmmm.....I guess you guys want us to keep all these players. No need to try and improve the quality of the roster, after all, the Browns went 9 and 23 the last two years. Why would we want to get rid of studs who produced such great results?  I see it for what it is: the Browns are lacking in talent in many areas. The majority of the fans around here overrated the job Heckert did here. There are holes in the roster all over the place. The new guys see these holes and are going to work to correct them. I don't think it will be a total rebuild, like we had after Butch left and then again, after Savage left. I do think that the FO thinks that we can't get this done in a year. Then again, the H and H crowd told us that they needed their full five years, so it wouldn't have been complete even if the old guys stayed. Gocong was slow. He was not agile. The only place he excelled was in short yardage situations where he could attack the LOS straight ahead. He was a waste for the most part and won't be missed. We have better options on the roster. Oh, and tab.......I tried telling you this before, but you must have missed it. No way is Woodson a FS at this stage of his career. Heck, the Pack really limited his responsibilities in pass coverage from the SS position the last few years.
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It's very simple...The FO got rid of two players that simply were risks...An injury and guy that couldn't tackle... we were 5- 11....move on.
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Colt McCoy deal shows depth of the Browns' makeover: Terry Pluto Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer Follow on Twitter on April 03, 2013 at 5:29 PM, updated April 03, 2013 at 7:17 PM CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Did Colt McCoy get a “fair shot” with the Browns? The truth is that most quarterbacks wearing an orange helmet since the team returned in 1999 haven’t had what many fans would consider a “fair shot” because the Browns have been such a mess. It’s a team that has had problems on the offensive line, finding receivers, settling on an offense and problems with the coaching staff. None of that is what you want for a young quarterback. Ask anyone from Tim Couch to Charlie Frye to Brady Quinn and the seven other quarterbacks who have started at least one Browns opening day since 1999. This has been the franchise where quarterbacks go to watch their careers wither and die. Two winning records and one playoff appearance (a loss in 2002) in 14 seasons. McCoy fans should be glad the Browns traded him to San Francisco. He joins a Super Bowl-caliber team with a strong line and a power running game. The coaching staff salvaged the career of former quarterback-bust Alex Smith and now is making a star out of Colin Kaepernick. At the moment, the 49ers are everything the Browns want to become. They are a physical team with a discernible game plan and a sense of purpose from the front office to the last guy on special teams. The new Browns front office views McCoy as not having the arm strength and durability of Jason Campbell. They ended up signing Campbell (a better fit) as a free agent, and then added a fifth and seventh round pick from the 49ers in exchange for McCoy and a sixth-round pick. Furthermore, Campbell and McCoy were making about the same $1.5 million salary, only the Browns have the option of keeping Campbell in 2014. McCoy is a free agent after 2013. The Browns are in the midst of another roster makeover, and the Campbell/McCoy exchange is a small part of it. While some fans are upset about the switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4 defense, the new Browns don’t consider it a big deal. They ask this question, “How much has the defense really lost with Kaluka Maiava, Frostee Rucker, Usama Young, Chris Gocong, Sheldon Brown and Scott Fujita being cut or departing as free agents?” Yes, they create holes. The Browns aren’t just thin in the secondary, they are almost invisible beyond cornerback Joe Haden and safety T.J. Ward. The only other defensive back worth discussing is safety Tashaun Gipson. Eric Hagg opened the season at safety, but lost the job and he seems nothing more than a special teams player at this point. Alabama cornerback Dee Milliner looks better every day as a possible pick at No. 6. Despite signing free agents Paul Kruger and Quentin Groves, they need at least one more outside linebacker. They hope Jabaal Sheard can play there, but he has been a 4-3 end most of his career. It’s not a simple transition. The defensive line is stronger with holdovers such as Ahtyba Rubin, Phil Taylor, Billy Winn, John Hughes and free agent Desmond Bryant. If you are a Browns fan weary of all the changes, I understand. I feel the same way. But I also can’t make a fuss about replacing McCoy with Campbell. I thought Young and Rucker were mediocre while Gocong was overpaid ($4.5 million) and a major question mark because of Achilles surgery. Brown and Fujita are aging. Maiava is a nice backup and special teams player, but hardly a candidate for the Pro Bowl. So the issue with the Browns isn’t so much who they lost — it’s who will replace them. The hard thing isn’t cutting the roster, it’s bringing in the right guys so that the fans don’t have to endure a purge like this every few years. web page
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So the issue with the Browns isn’t so much who they lost — it’s who will replace them.
The hard thing isn’t cutting the roster, it’s bringing in the right guys so that the fans don’t have to endure a purge like this every few years.
Exactly THIS
Nobody has a problem letting go Watson, Usama, Gocong etc...most of us wanted us to improve on them. The problem is that we simply haven't been as active as we should have been in FA....we have signed 2 starters, that's all, that's most probably below AVG for this FA league wide...and all that with the biggest cap room.
Either this FO thinks very highly of the young palyers they inherited or they're doing exactly what posters criticize Heckert for (little in FA and built through the draft)...applauding the "restraint" of this FO and bashing the past is hypocritical imho. Maybe they "continue" what's being built, but no matter who the GM was this FA, I would have liked more starting caliber players signed before the draft, considering it was a buyers market and we were a powerful buyer....Kruger was the obvious RDE or OLB (depending on scheme) we all knew was needed and Bryant was the price (and NEW need created) for the D-scheme switch...the rest? We've done NOTHING about it....we could have filled 3 big needs at FS, CB and ILB with at least AVG to good players and STILL have over 20mil in cap. It's beyond me why we didn't do it...my best guess is this FO wants THEIR guys, THEY drafted...see my sig what Banner said about him and Lombardi
#gmstrong
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So the issue with the Browns isn’t so much who they lost — it’s who will replace them.
The hard thing isn’t cutting the roster, it’s bringing in the right guys so that the fans don’t have to endure a purge like this every few years.
Exactly THIS
Nobody has a problem letting go Watson, Usama, Gocong etc...most of us wanted us to improve on them. The problem is that we simply haven't been as active as we should have been in FA....we have signed 2 starters, that's all, that's most probably below AVG for this FA league wide...and all that with the biggest cap room.
Either this FO thinks very highly of the young palyers they inherited or they're doing exactly what posters criticize Heckert for (little in FA and built through the draft)...applauding the "restraint" of this FO and bashing the past is hypocritical imho. Maybe they "continue" what's being built, but no matter who the GM was this FA, I would have liked more starting caliber players signed before the draft, considering it was a buyers market and we were a powerful buyer....Kruger was the obvious RDE or OLB (depending on scheme) we all knew was needed and Bryant was the price (and NEW need created) for the D-scheme switch...the rest? We've done NOTHING about it....we could have filled 3 big needs at FS, CB and ILB with at least AVG to good players and STILL have over 20mil in cap. It's beyond me why we didn't do it...my best guess is this FO wants THEIR guys, THEY drafted...
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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we could have filled 3 big needs at FS, CB and ILB with at least AVG to good players and STILL have over 20mil in cap. It's beyond me why we didn't do it...
Especially the lack of one of the top 3 or 4 corners. Signing the 2 we did is fine. But letting these other guys go elsewhere for the measely bucks they signed for is nutso.
None of those corners are considered studs. More or less solid 2's. But for 6M or less a year, that's value to me. If that's the market for these guys we need to ink Haden NOW.
My biggest fear was we end up spending Clements/Asomaughua money on one of these guys. Like 10-12M worth.
We need to take advantage of this market and start talking to Haden about extension.
Man it woulda been nice to land Lewis and still draft a Rhodes/Banks.
I'm kinda expecting a move down and a 1-2 punch of CB and FS.
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we could have filled 3 big needs at FS, CB and ILB
Three Safeties we've looked at hard are Rambo of Georgia, J.J. Wilcox of Georgia Southern and D.J. Swearinger of SC.
I like Rambo and Swearinger.
What do u know about this Wilcox kid?
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We also invited Don Jones of Arkansas State for a visit.
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Yeah I must have missed it. FS...reason I keep saying that is to me probably the most important thing I would like from an experienced FS whose skill set is on the down turn. Is to call the coverages n be excellent at it.
Also in my error I envision the FS as the Ball Hawk guy which I do like Woodson in that role. But you are correct in most cases of the NFL the SS turns out to be the Ball Hawk Impact player while the FS covers his butt n stays disciplined. Palo SS, Reed SS - When Woodson did hit the FA market - some talking heads did mention him to move to FS to ride out his career. ??? Guess that stuck in my head.
Heckert...I wish you would not be hell bent on that. If you actually look at our team...We got a great youth foundation built like...NEVER BEFORE for this new regime. Last year over 30 on the 53 roster...All brought here by Heckert via draft, waiver wire or UDFA...They are all here. What was let go were FA who we all know are over paid usually or minor trades to bring in SYSTEM VETS here. Those pretty much are gone.
Banner definitely has an across the board AGE thing and seems to be sticking to it. I wish he would have made Dawson an exception but other than that I get it.
So I know you have had to fight tooth n nail with some dawgs so that you have drawn the line. But sorry man, Heckert did a good job with "PERSONNEL" n Plan. Choice of HC n other things...not good. But in your thought process you wish to look at each individual n break them down with negatives n say SEE...but I'm looking at them as a whole n they are football players who are young n not infused to one system. Probably the most SYSTEM pick was just traded. Also the state of our CAP was not done as a blind squirrel thing. He has us in a great state to Build this thing finally within a 3 year period to be vying for a championship.
HOLES...heck yeah, youngens have to continue their progress Normal NFL turnover has the foundations being upgraded all the time. But my point is we are upgrading not a bunch of BUMS but actual football players who play n love the game. Hopefully you can one day see this as a BIG BIG turning point with this franchise n has put the new Regime in a place to Succeed. I get it that Heckert is the biggest WALL for those who do not trust this NEW REGIME AT ALL - needed to climb over. You feel you must Tear that wall down. When all is said n done n your imperative stance is no longer needed as we WILL START WINNING...I think you will look back n appreciate Heckert a lot more than you project....just guessing.
Thanks for the Heads up on Woodson. As stated I would love to have a vet who can put us in the correct coverages...Add that to the ATTACK from the Front Look/Pressure the results will be so so great. I also see him able to be disciplined n able to Ball Hawk n get some INTS also. Does he fit that bill??? Sort of looking at the future.
Right now with YOUNG CBs obviously that we will have. A vet FS with wisdom on coverages taking the Leadership role with all the Youngsters...can help this team. This is where Banners...Mathematical Theorems must be thrown out n FOOTBALL takes over the thought process.
JMHO - we won't be doomed if we don't but I think we need it!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Either this FO thinks very highly of the young palyers they inherited or they're doing exactly what posters criticize Heckert for (little in FA and built through the draft)...applauding the "restraint" of this FO and bashing the past is hypocritical imho.
Your humble opinion? LOL
Dj, why do you always feel the need to criticize other posters who don't agree w/you? Why did you have to throw in the "hypocritical" part? Why not just state how you feel about this FO and the past FO? Do you think your opinion carries more weight if you belittle those who have a different opinion? Do you think you can sway neutral posters to side w/you? If so......why in God's name do you care so much about what other people think? I am going to tell you straight up.......I do NOT like when you call me names, such as hypocrite. Will you please stop?
Look, I didn't have a problem w/Heckert for wanting to build through the draft. That is the way you should build your team. I doubt if very few people argued otherwise. I had two problems w/Heckert.
1. He did not use FA as a tool. He was trying to rebuild the entire team and you can't do that by not even using FA. Already, the current FO has brought in better free agents than Heckert ever did. Again, you build through the draft and use free agency to supplement. I have NEVER said to go crazy in free agency. Never! That would be stupid.
2. My biggest problem w/Heckert is who he drafted. I hated his strategy last year. If there was ever a year to trade down, last year was it. We give up picks to get a freaking RB. A RB from Alabama. The same guy who couldn't beat out Ingram [btw--he's having a great career in New Orleans.] We trade w/a team who wasn't going to take TRich. So what if Tampa Bay moves ahead of us? Let them. Then we could have drafted Doug Martin later and that is the guy I wanted all along. Then he drafts freaking Weeden. That was brilliant. A slow-witted, lazy, older qb who ran an offense that was miles away from the WCO. More brilliance. We draft McCoy and Hardesty fairly high. We go out and draft first round guys on the same two positions two years later. That's crappy drafting. Meanwhile, we completely ignore the FS and LBer position. We had a corner who was getting older and slower and ignore that. The guy drove me nuts w/his drafting. Notice how I said all that w/out insulting anyone who disagrees w/me? It's not that hard.
With all that said, I have no clue if this FO is going to be good or not. I liked our free agency action early. Love the Kruger and Bryant signings. I understand the LBer, but I would have liked to have added either a corner or a FS. I would rather have kept Brown then go w/who is currently on the roster. Not sure what their plan is and it tells me it's going to be another long season.
Additionally, I don't like what they did w/the TE position. Watson is getting older and has had concussions, but are we really going to rely on Jordan and Davis? Yeah, they have potential, but potential means you haven't done anything yet.
Kicker? Well, there may be more to the story, but Phil didn't exactly break the bank in free agency.
I like some things. I don't like some things. But I do think it is kinda early to make a definitive statement. Heck, we haven't even drafted yet. H and H had three years and this team stayed the same or got worse record wise from the team they inherited. I don't miss them. Will the new guys be better? I have no idea, but I can only pray that they are, because it can't get much worse and I am sick of the Browns losing and losing and losing.
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tab......just so you know---I typed up my last response before reading your post. I was not deliberately bad-mouthing Heckert after you asked me to tone it down. LOL
On Heckert: I think he did some good things. Heck, I had Schwartz as a 3rd or 4th rounder. Remember the player profile I did on him last year? Anyway, he was a very good second round pick. The Haden pick was decent. Sheard was a pretty good pick. Little? Maybe.
I am not saying he was awful. I just think that people overrate him. I don't see it as this HUGE loss. And you should know by now that if someone proves me wrong, I change my opinion. Do you remember how much I hated the Mangini hire? I was livid. You told me that I would end up liking him. Well, you were right and I did indeed end up liking Mangini. I have already pointed out my mistake on the Schwartz thing. I will change my mind if the person in question warrants it. So, I am not fighting some stubborn fight. I just was not nearly as impressed w/Heckert as most were.
I do want to add this: a lot is made up of all the young talent we have on the roster. While I agree that they are young, I wonder how talented they are. For instance, people were talking about how many starters and role players we had that were so young. I say guys like Haag, Wade, Skrine, Maracic, Maaiva, etc would have a hard time making rosters of other teams, never mind being counted on as key contributors. Being good and being young are not always one and the same.
One more thing on Woodson. You are right about the calls and the ball hawking parts. He's a smart guy. Crafty. However, I did notice that Green Bay was almost using him more as a LBer than a true safety. He wasn't covering guys in space. A good example is like a Monster Back. Do you remember that position from back in the day? High school defenses. I played Monster Back. It took the place of the SS. Not much pass coverage responsibilities. Play the run and cover a fairly small zone in pass coverage. Green Bay was not asking Woodson to cover guys or large areas of space in his last 2-3 years.
Oh well.......take care.
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Maybe it's because I'm European and am not 100% on english language/semantics, but "hypocritical" to me is not an insult...if it is, then sorry...what I meant and how I usually use the word was more towards logic and argumentation, as in "inconsistent" or "can't argue both ways" rethoric.
Semantics aside, I said the moment Heckert drafted TRich that he deserves to be fired if TRich isn't a top 5 RB within 2 years. Burning our best pick AND 3 others drove me nuts.
As for McCoy and Hardesty being "busts"...first of all, take a look at all players drafted in that late 2nd to late 3rd range where those 2 guys were drafted. You will be amazed at how many are non factors in this league. Does that make those picks better? No, but it DOES happen to over 50% of the GMs too in that range.
The problem I have when you talk about Heckert is that you completely ignore the good things he did, like building a DL from scratch or find two capable WR in round 2...if after 3 drafts the worst he did was blow a mid rounder or a late 2nd then you're really trying to pick a fight, as this happens to EVERY GM over 3 drafts. Go look at the Patriots or Steelers drafts. The fact that he has yet to blow a top 50 pick (TRich and Weeden pending) is amazing. See, I was probably the biggest Heckert homer around here, but I criticized him heavily for the TRich selection and even said that he deserves to be fired if he doesn't turn into a stud RB
As for FA use: I was, for the most part, ok with it the past 3 offseason for different reasons. The market was crazy, that was my main concern. Eric Wright got 8mil/season off a poor season....consider that....nothing like the 5mil Keenan Lewis got after a breakout season. I also am on record saying that I expected him to spend THIS FA....that was well before the makeover in the FO. We will never know what he would have done, but since he was carrying over all that cap and considering our most competitive season since 2007, with a young roster to boot, I'm pretty confident he would have invested into some starters....how many we will never know....but I expected WHOEVER the GM for this FA would be to add starters, but we signed more backups than starters and less starters than some teams who're in "cap hell"
What we DO know is that THIS FO has signed 2 starters. One of those starters was a self-inflicted need due to the system switch on D (Bryant), so really all we did was sign a RDE/OLB that we needed in both schemes. I'd even argue that we created another need with the switch at ILB and by math that means we haven't quantitatively filled ANY needs we counted at the end of last season, as we "created" 2 new needs just with the switch and filled 2 needs in FA = 0 needs filled...in fact, by letting competent starters like Dawson, S.Brown and Watson walk without a sound backup plan makes this -3 in my book. We NOW have MORE needs, than at the end of last season, that's a fact. What's the plan? I hope they have one and I hope they isnn't filled with 5th to 7th round picks from West Texas A&M
We pretty much agree on this FO so far, as I liked the signigns but feel we should have done something about our DB needs and I agree on the TE position, but there I give Chud and Norv the benefit of the doubt, so I'll let it slide for now
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Sort of skipped over your 1st post...looking for a Tabber reference 
Understand...why I stated I think when all the dust settles n some of these prospects develop. In Total we never had.
LG Pinkston (sure we can upgrade but not a bum)
RG Lava ( a little more harder than some dawgs think we can upgrade)
RT Schwartz as you recognize is a cornerstone RT.
TE Cameron I know you have been suspect but meanwhile Chud who sure as heck knows TEs pretty much has stated we are going in with him as our Starter (we could add in the draft)
WR Little...light finally turned on last half of the season very evident to me.
WR Gordon...actually could develop to an elite WR...hope he is motivated to be the best!
Depth. Miller, Benjamin, Cooper, Greco
Defense great DL
LB Heckert only drafted JMJ then Acho later on or was he UDFA???
CB Haden, SS Ward, but I like Skrine as a prospect still n improved each year. Gipson Bademosi
Just a very good foundation...not counting the HOFers in the group just FINALLY we built a foundation that can be upgraded on!
Got to run.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Quote:
This draft is loaded in defensive back talent. I think people developed tunnel vision on Millner but a lot of those kids drafted in the 2nd and 3rd rounds are going to be starting come opening day. I vote for bringing back Sheldon for another year whether we draft a rookie or not.
Anyway, I think we may see a massive trade on draft day and people may want to start getting familiar with a lot of these 2nd and 3rd round corners and safeties. I think the 49ers are going to go all in and we will trade.
There is another factor..I believe little Hulk said that the fact that the lower tier FA's were signing immediately caught them a bit.
Now for me that should never happen. U are always multi-tasking and looking at FA's in a group and not individually is what they are supposed to be doing.
It appears that the CB's they wanted early on got snatched before Banner and Lombardi could let the market cool off a bit..
After that I will go on a hunch and say that they have evaluated the corners in the draft vs the remaining FA corners and figure thats the way to go.
This a CB and safety heavy draft.
But it's shortened by the lack of a second rounder.
If they had grabbed one (and I'm not talking about Grimes) they could take a corner and slowly work him in instead of having to throw him in there and have those growing pains.
This first draft will make Lombardi work his butt off because he has very few picks and none where he actually needs it, right in the second.
There are rumors of trading down and it will get heavier but the reality is, they may not be able to move. In that case they can't mess around.
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I believe that we all have to keep these moves in perspective. Like it or not, the Browns have still only won 18 games in the last 4 years. Just because we get a new owner, front office and coaches does not make the 18 game winning players better.
I think the Browns have made some decent moves to this point but let's not kid ourselves - there are still a bunch of holes on this team.
QB - no clear starter on this team and may not be one.
RB - huge drop off after Richardson, Hardesty nearing bust as a draft pick.
WR - young but still one of the weakest in the NFL with no true #1.
OL - guard remains a huge question mark.
LB - even with the addition of Kruger, still need another true OLB and a replacement for Gonong.
CB - might be biggest need on team, real big hole opposite Haden.
S - Young is gone and only Ward left as true starter.
DL - 7 to 8 studs for the line if you include Sheard. Problem is 6 of the 8 are interior lineman with only Sheard being a true starting DE. The Browns don't need 6 NT's for the 3-4 or should they even be thinking about putting a slow moving interior lineman out of position at DE. Not to mention that the Browns pass rush has been almost nonexistent the last 4 years, playing guys outside of their true position does not help to increase the QB pressure issue the Browns already have. Ruben provides the most trade value for the Browns and unloading his 6+ million dollar contract to get back into the 2nd round of the draft makes more sense than paying him that huge contract to be a rotational player.
The Browns need to add more than 2-3 players to turn this team around. They need a quality draft and some more FA's to fill the holes we have on this team. If they don't then you can expect the same results. There's a reason why the Browns have only won 18 games in 4 years - they lack the talent to compete. Having a new owner and coaching staff will not make poor players better, just poor players playing for a different coach and owner.
The Browns still have the 2nd most cap money to spend. How they use it will tell a lot about where this team will be in 2013. Right now, we will be extremely lucky to be close to .500, more likely a 5-6 win team without some more strategic moves.
Just "KICKING THAT CAN DOWN the ROAD"
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What!?!?!?
Where do you people keep coming from?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Hmmmm.....I guess you guys want us to keep all these players. No need to try and improve the quality of the roster, after all, the Browns went 9 and 23 the last two years. Why would we want to get rid of studs who produced such great results?
I think you are missing the mark totally.
I DON'T think you can make this team a consistant winner without, and you seem to dislike the term, but yes, a re-build.
Now does that mean all 53 men? No it doesn't. It means that I believe the vast majority of this roster will be changed over the next 2-3 years.
You don't change the O scheme completely, the D scheme completely and keep the vast majority of players who weren't even successful in a completely different scheme that they were drafted for in the first place.
How would that make any sense? You see, I never said it was a bad thing. I never said it was a good thing. I simply said it would happen. Some seem to try to deny it and that just makes no sense.
They have already figured out "for sure" some players that simply won't fit the new D. Some they are keeping are simply "in hopes" of being able to transfer well to the 3-4. Some of those experiments won't work either. So yes, it will end up being pretty much a complete overhaul of the D.
The question will be, how well will they replace our current players with players that will actually make this D good?
The drafting of Travis Benjiman put the final nail in the Cribbs coffin no matter who would have been in charge here. You just assume I think a rebuild is such a bad thing when in reality I don't. You can't change the scheme on both O and d and not expect a re-build. That's simply not logical.
However, it was reported that our roster was just as equipped to run the 3-4 as the 4-3 and that just simply wasn't the truth. As this season unfolds, we'll see just how invalid such a statement was.
I want to see success here as much as anyone. But that will be determined on players acquired during this re-build, not if there is a re-build.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Problem is 6 of the 8 are interior lineman with only Sheard being a true starting DE. The Browns don't need 6 NT's for the 3-4
Understand your points - I don't necessarily agree but understand.
The quote above however did not make that much sense. Most 3-4 DE are DTs. Very very few were actual DEs. Watt n Hunt are exceptions.
Yes Taylor does not fit the 3-4 DE profile and most likely will be competing for that position. But he has a lot of explosion n the big boy can move. If he sticks I guarantee you he will be asked to lose 20-30 lbs at the least. Not in one year of course.
Rubin n Hughes are true NT types. Bryant was gotten because he actually fits perfect for what we want. Winn fits perfectly as well. We got 2 True 3-4 DEs n we find Taylor could be a unique fit as he aggressively attacks the gap n penetrates well.
I do not follow your premise of the 3-4 DL Your entire thought process was explaining where we were missing for a 4-3 DL.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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QB is a ??? but we also have Chud and Norv.
RB is stocked. Richardson has finally had a chance to let his knee and ribs heal. Hardesty was looking like the kid we expected when we drafted him and OGB looked terrific as a 3rd down back. His blitz pickups were amazing.
WR the big knock on Weeden is that he wasnt hitting the open receivers. YEs thats right they were OPEN. Little has apparently cured his dropsies and Gordon went from looking like he should be cut to looking like a future star. I We could use a replacement for Mo but I like this group for the first time since well Chud was here last with Joe J, BE and K2.
TE still need a real pass catching threat but there are a few in the draft I like and a couple trade possibilities floating around.
OL is top 5 People can whine all they want about the guards but this is a good line and I think Lauvao/Schwartz combo is going to be really good this year. I hope we can find a LG replacement but if no change is made to the OL this year I am fine with it. We will however draft atleast one maybe 2 OL.
Kicker will be a downgrade
Punter will be an upgrade, Hodges was a disaster.
LS, set there and no one remembers his name lol
Defense, should be easily top 5 defensive line.
Inside backers, I actually like this group and honestly feel they are going to be fun to watch.
Outside backers Kruger is the pass rusher we have been needing but Sheard is a ??? I think he can do it and do it at a high level before the end of the year. If I am wrong, I will admit it. I think being owned by Joe Thomas in practice the first time around cost him his confidence in playing the left side. Hopefully he has matured since then.
Secondary, Ward should be a pro bowler in this scheme as should Haden with more pass rush help. FS is my biggest concern. Its a strong class for safeties and corners, I dont think we will have a problem in this area. Will just have to protect them a bit early on.
I think it is an 8 win team with just more experienced youngsters and the upgrade of coaches. Solid draft and maybe another FA signing and I will increase my expectations.
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Hmmmm, we come from loyal Browns Fans that have followed this team since the 60's. We have watched other teams continue to build and rebuild their teams year after year while our beloved Browns continue with medicore play year after year. 18 wins in 4 years is not a team getting better - it's a losing team!
The Browns are the 3rd losingest team over the last 10 years and standing pat - making minimal moves - or believing we are better than we are does not generate wins.
I'm a diehard loyal Browns Fan since the early 60's. The Browns are 3 games away from having the worst record in entire NFL over the last 10 years. If StL wins 3 more games than we do in 2013, and Det 1 more than us - then we will be the losingest team over the last decade. That my friend is unacceptable and an embarassment to every player who has worn the Brown and Orange with pride.
The Colts went from 2 wins in 2011 to 11 wins in 2012 with a rookie QB and a new coach. They had 90 players in camp that had never had on a Colts uniform before last year at their training camp opening. Why? The Colts knew they didn't have a very good team in 2011 and knew that things wouldn't change in 2012 with the same cast and just adding a new coach and rookie QB. The Browns are in the same situation, not very good team that needs some different players than those that have only been able to generate 18 wins in 4 years.
If you believe differently than that then I suspect you can expect the same results. There is a reason for 18 wins in 4 years and the 3rd losingest team in the NFL over the last 10 years - our Browns do not have the talent to be competitive - PLAIN AND SIMPLE - their record proves that!
Facts are reality, Hopes are fantasy. Hoping the Browns will be better because of a new owner, coaches, and a couple FA's is pure fantasy - adding a significant number of quality players to a weak team can only improve that team. The Browns have the 6th pick in the draft for a reason and it certainly is not because they are a good team - FACT! Oh, and winning 1 more game in 2012 than 2011 is not an improvement - it's an embarassment - 4 wins to 5 wins is not getting better.
To answer your question - we people come from the group that is tired of seeing a poor product on the field. This team has too rich a history to continually be the doormat of the NFL. It's time to make the changes necessary to get this team back to the glory days and the rich Cleveland Browns tradition of winning.
Just "KICKING THAT CAN DOWN the ROAD"
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QB, I agree that we have nothing but questions there. There is some potential with Weeden, especially in an offense that fits his abilities, but thus far he has not proved a thing in the NFL.
RB: I like the trio of Richardson, Hardesty, Ogbonnaya quite a lot. All 3 guys can be used on any down, in a variety of roles. All can run and block, and Richardson and Ogbonnaya can each catch well. Is Hardesty a bust? He's now a backup, and he only received 65 carries last year, but he did average 4.2 yards/carry, and did a nice job overall in relief of Richardson. He looked explosive when he had his chances to run. Ogbonnaya showed value as a receiver out of the backfield, and he also understands pass protection. He's a nice 3rd back.
WR: You see weakness ... I see massive potential. If Little truly is over his drops, then I see this as a group with massive upside, and damn good current productivity. Gordon isn't yet a #1 ...... but considering that he was out of football for a year, 50 catches for 805 yards, 16.1 yards/catch, and 5 TD is a pretty damn good rookie year. As a comparison, AJ Green had 65 catches for 1057 yards, 16.3 yards/catch, and 7 TD as a rookie. With 15 more catches, Gordon would have had similar numbers. I like his potential quit a lot.
G: Some see a massive weakness .... but I really don't. The 2 we finished the year with were very effective pass blockers, and I think that part of Trent's issues running the ball had to do with him being used to setting up deeper, and being able to see the play develop from a different depth.The Guards seemed to block fine when Hardesty came in, so I do think that was a large part of the problem. Again, Shurmur tried to hammer a square peg into a round hole.
LB: Do you count Gocong as an ILB or an OLB? I think that he's an ILB, and I think that the team likes JMJ and Robertson in that role far better than Gocong ... thus he's gone.
S: I'm not going to cry over Young being gone. He was absolutely awful last year. He would constantly jump off of coverage to try and create something, only to get burned. Bleh. I hated seeing him even take the field in pre-season games. I don't think that we downgraded here ..... but we may want to add someone ... I just don't know who.
I am not sure why you want to put Sheard back in with the DL. He's not a 3-4 DE. He's not even close. He is a 3-4 OLB, and he will be backed up by/supplemented with Groves.
In the 3-4, we will probably only keep 6 DL. I think that we can easily pick 5 of them today, with Bryant, Taylor, Rubin, Winn, and Hughes getting 5 of those spots.
If we had to line up today, I would guess that our front 7 would be:
Taylor, Rubin, Bryant
Sheard/Groves, JMJ, DQ, Kruger
We could do a lot worse there.
CB remains,quite probably, the biggest issue on the team, and will have to be addressed in the 1st 3 rounds.
I don't pretend to know what kind of record we'll have ..... but I will predict this: Our record will depand a lot on how well Weeden picks up Norv's offense, and how well he plays. If he plays well, then we have a chance to win some games. If not, then we will probably have a 4-5 win season again.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I believe that we all have to keep these moves in perspective. Like it or not, the Browns have still only won 18 games in the last 4 years. Just because we get a new owner, front office and coaches does not make the 18 game winning players better.
I think the Browns have made some decent moves to this point but let's not kid ourselves - there are still a bunch of holes on this team.
QB - no clear starter on this team and may not be one.
RB - huge drop off after Richardson, Hardesty nearing bust as a draft pick.
WR - young but still one of the weakest in the NFL with no true #1.
OL - guard remains a huge question mark.
LB - even with the addition of Kruger, still need another true OLB and a replacement for Gonong.
CB - might be biggest need on team, real big hole opposite Haden.
S - Young is gone and only Ward left as true starter.
DL - 7 to 8 studs for the line if you include Sheard. Problem is 6 of the 8 are interior lineman with only Sheard being a true starting DE. The Browns don't need 6 NT's for the 3-4 or should they even be thinking about putting a slow moving interior lineman out of position at DE. Not to mention that the Browns pass rush has been almost nonexistent the last 4 years, playing guys outside of their true position does not help to increase the QB pressure issue the Browns already have. Ruben provides the most trade value for the Browns and unloading his 6+ million dollar contract to get back into the 2nd round of the draft makes more sense than paying him that huge contract to be a rotational player.
The Browns need to add more than 2-3 players to turn this team around. They need a quality draft and some more FA's to fill the holes we have on this team. If they don't then you can expect the same results. There's a reason why the Browns have only won 18 games in 4 years - they lack the talent to compete. Having a new owner and coaching staff will not make poor players better, just poor players playing for a different coach and owner.
The Browns still have the 2nd most cap money to spend. How they use it will tell a lot about where this team will be in 2013. Right now, we will be extremely lucky to be close to .500, more likely a 5-6 win team without some more strategic moves.
I don't think I agree with any of that..
QB, Weeden is the starter., He had bumps in the road, but I think Turner and Chud will make him better.. If not we'll move on next year.
RB: You haven't been paying attention.. Hardesty and Obi were decent for the time they were given. In fact, I think Hardesty started to show his true skills.. I have a hunch he'll get more playing time this coming season.. Obi is a solid number 3
WR: You have a bit of a point on no clear #1, but we have some talent there that is coming into it's own. Gordon was pretty good and Little got his act together and stopped dropping balls. Maybe neither WAS a #1 but either could be going forward.
Oline: Guard isn't a question mark at all.. I think they are decent. Can we upgrade, yeah, of course. And we should if the opportunity exist. But it is certainly not the priority you make it sound like
LB: Yeah, we need more to choose from, Sheard is a ? at that position. Kruger will help but we need to add some guys here to look at. we've got the draft, UDFA, FA's and cutdowns to find working solutions. Not the end of the world.
CB: Ok, I was wrong, we do agree on this one. But this being a DB heavy draft, I think we can get what we need
S: see above.
DL: Will be way better than you give them credit for. we have lots of talent on the DL. If you think in terms of traditional 3-4 you might be able to find problems, but that's not what Horton said he's about. If you wanna worry about something, worry about CB, Not the DL.
I agree, there is a need to add more than JUST 2 or 3 players. and we have plenty of opportunity to do that.
Don't give up yet.. it's early.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Good posts and I agree w/a lot of what you say. I don't agree about the DL because D-ends in the 3-4 need to be bigger guys who can set the edge. Our d-line should be fine. And don't let them get to you just because you are new. Keep talking football and you will be alright, at least in my book. LOL
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