|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,950 Likes: 763
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,950 Likes: 763 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Torture can and does work. If it didn't, it wouldn't be used. Period.
I'm all for it, personally.
It might work if the person actually knows something... but what about the people that don't really have the information that our government thinks they have?
That's where you have to trust the people conducting the interview. It's their job to determine whether someone is lying or not, if the information they are getting is a ploy, or not.
Maybe that's where we differ then, because for the most part, I don't trust them to have the right people, or to know when the people are hiding something or to know when the people are lying...
I trust that they do the best they can with what they have to work with.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Torture can and does work. If it didn't, it wouldn't be used. Period.
I'm all for it, personally.
It might work if the person actually knows something... but what about the people that don't really have the information that our government thinks they have?
That's where you have to trust the people conducting the interview. It's their job to determine whether someone is lying or not, if the information they are getting is a ploy, or not.
Maybe that's where we differ then, because for the most part, I don't trust them to have the right people, or to know when the people are hiding something or to know when the people are lying...
I trust that they do the best they can with what they have to work with.
That's the only scary part, we're talking about government workers.
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831 |
The endgoal of torture is a confession. The endgoal of an investigation is the truth.
When your starting point is "This guy is guilty" then you will do anything to confirm that starting point in order to reach the endgoal: confession.
The problem is not everyone who is tortured is guilty. You will keep torturing innocent people until they confess because that's the entire point of torture.
The US has locked up people for over a decade without charging them for a crime and without allowing them to plead their case. How is that justice?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
Prp, I'm far from a bleeding heart softy and I trust that they do their best too... I'm just not sure I trust them to err on the side of caution... and torturing one innocent person can't just be chalked up to making a mistake.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806 Likes: 632
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806 Likes: 632 |
You're beginning to make blanket arguments which will poke holes in your overall point.
Torture has been shown to be effective. Ask Al-Kuwaiti, well, if he weren't dead. To assume torture wasn't involved in locating OBL would be ignorant at best.
The citation to Abu Ghraib is legitimate. Those troops should have been and were punished.
The Geneva Conventions you implicitly mention, or any other UN document for that matter, involves treaty/contractual consideration among member states. The consideration is the mutual preservation of some semblance of civility at a time of war between states. Again, I don't see AQ's signature on there anywhere and I don't see them abiding whatsoever.
The comment about the blowback from torture I have seen utilized mostly by Westerners or only politically by non-Westerners, and I've found it to have little weight. I'm not sure how much opportunity you've had to spend time in a non-Western country, but if you haven't, I'd encourage you to do so. This is our paradigm because the West is the part of the world that values individual human rights before all else in society.
Torture and death is not nearly as inciteful in other parts of the world as many of us would believe. When torture is/was used internally or externally by places like Iran, Afghanistan under the Taliban, China, North Korea, etc., there was little blowback. I'll point back to the Afghanistan Qur'an burnings compared to the massacre committed by that Cincinnati Staff Sgt. After the Qur'an was burned, bases were mortared like crazy and all hell broke loose. After the massacre.......nothing. Values are just different.
Other countries or groups hate us for several reasons, some legitimate and some not legitimate. Our adversaries, especially AQ, would continue to hate us just the same with or without torture.
Should we torture innocents? No. Should we torture U.S. citizens, especially without DP? No. Should we torture uniformed soldiers from other countries? No. I do agree with you there is some level of hypocrisy when pointing the finger at other nations, but I've noticed the finger-pointing has moved away solely from torture to a broader human rights spectrum.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806 Likes: 632
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806 Likes: 632 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Torture can and does work. If it didn't, it wouldn't be used. Period.
I'm all for it, personally.
It might work if the person actually knows something... but what about the people that don't really have the information that our government thinks they have?
That's where you have to trust the people conducting the interview. It's their job to determine whether someone is lying or not, if the information they are getting is a ploy, or not.
Maybe that's where we differ then, because for the most part, I don't trust them to have the right people, or to know when the people are hiding something or to know when the people are lying...
I trust that they do the best they can with what they have to work with.
That's the only scary part, we're talking about government workers.
What's the problem with government workers?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
Just an observation. For a guy that calls himself "The Joker" you dont make many jokes. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831 |
Quote:
Again, I don't see AQ's signature on there anywhere and I don't see them abiding whatsoever.
This is such a weak argument it's laughable. "The terrorists don't follow rules, why should we?" Um, maybe because we aren't . terrorists??
And there's a lot more to US bans on torture than the UN Convention, which you misapplied.
Let's do this step-by-step, completely focusing on DOMESTIC US law, not International law - which the US is subject to.
US Supreme Court: In re Kemmler, 136 U.S. 436, 447 (1890)
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/136/436/
Torture is unconstitutional and prohibited under the 8th amendment.
The US Army Field Manual prohibits torture
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/136/436/
18 U.S.C. § 2340 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2340
Prohibits torture
To pretend that the US is prohibited from torture under only international law is completely wrong and a baseless claim. IT IS AGAINST THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION (which so many on here tout when it comes to the 2nd amendment) TO TORTURE PEOPLE. The Supreme Court recognized this over 120 years ago when the League of Nations and the UN were decades and decades away from being formed.
![[Linked Image from i190.photobucket.com]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z33/booger52/phpGGRdhwAM.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 Likes: 1
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 Likes: 1 |
j/c
Well, if we tortured some "terrorists," and Americans aren't to upset about it, then I guess, when US soldiers/civilians are tortured, then we shouldn't get all that angry about it...
If we are going to approve of that playbook, then that means we really don't have any right to condemn others for using the same plays...
I always felt taht we were above the whole "gross mistreatment of prisoners-type-thing," but I guess not. God Bless America....
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,950 Likes: 763
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,950 Likes: 763 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Torture can and does work. If it didn't, it wouldn't be used. Period.
I'm all for it, personally.
It might work if the person actually knows something... but what about the people that don't really have the information that our government thinks they have?
That's where you have to trust the people conducting the interview. It's their job to determine whether someone is lying or not, if the information they are getting is a ploy, or not.
Maybe that's where we differ then, because for the most part, I don't trust them to have the right people, or to know when the people are hiding something or to know when the people are lying...
I trust that they do the best they can with what they have to work with.
That's the only scary part, we're talking about government workers.
Soldiers, Marines, and sailors are government workers, too.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,950 Likes: 763
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,950 Likes: 763 |
Quote:
The endgoal of torture is a confession. The endgoal of an investigation is the truth.
No, torture is one possible specific tool set for an investigation.
Quote:
The US has locked up people for over a decade without charging them for a crime and without allowing them to plead their case. How is that justice?
What the hell does justice have to do with anything? This isn't a part of the civilian legal system with people trying to build a legal case to try someone in a court of law.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
The Geneva Conventions you implicitly mention, or any other UN document for that matter, involves treaty/contractual consideration among member states. The consideration is the mutual preservation of some semblance of civility at a time of war between states. Again, I don't see AQ's signature on there anywhere and I don't see them abiding whatsoever.
So are you suggesting that we play on their level?
Quote:
When torture is/was used internally or externally by places like Iran, Afghanistan under the Taliban, China, North Korea, etc., there was little blowback.
Do you know what would happen in Iran, China, or North Korea if you attempted to stand up and say that the governments tactics were wrong?
Quote:
Other countries or groups hate us for several reasons, some legitimate and some not legitimate. Our adversaries, especially AQ, would continue to hate us just the same with or without torture.
Of course they would, but how many ordinary citizens in the middle east don't hate us... but would start hating us if we yanked their neighbor, son, father, out of the house and tortured him? They may never get to the point of strapping bombs on themselves but they would be far from cooperative. This is just my highly uneducated opinion on middle eastern culture but we need to try to create distance between our tactics and AQs tactics in the eyes of the ordinary citizens, we need to show them that our way is better.. and it doesn't take too many highly publicized "mistakes" to undermine all of that. Blowing up a city block and 20 people to kill one terrorist, torturing an innocent person, etc isn't helping us create allies out of the ordinary people that we might be able to convince. I know it's the politically unpopular thing to do, but put yourself in their shoes. You are in Iraq or Afghanistan and you hear that some terrorist detonated a couple bombs in Boston and killed 3 innocent people, then killed a 4 person the next day... If I'm a typical resident of Baghdad I'm thinking, "And? That happens every day here, I've lost 3 close friends and two relatives, all innocent, to violence since the United States showed up... and now they want me to feel bad for them?"
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806 Likes: 632
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806 Likes: 632 |
I know you're a young gun and I believe you're in law school. Not sure if you're on the Jessup team, but if not, I highly encourage it.
How did I misapply the Geneva Convention? The argument is not laughable. It's true. Is it not a treaty among state members, along with all other UN Conventions? By your saying, I was not aware terrorist organizations were the only group of people who committed torture. Besides, I'm sure many of our adversaries consider us to be terrorists since, as I'm sure you're well aware, "terrorist" is about as well-defined internationally as "torture," and I'm pretty sure we've used violence as means of coercion.
As far as the U.S. domestic law is concerned, this is where the DOJ memos come in. It was part of the Jessup problem that I had to argue 5 years ago (man, I feel old now). Section 2340 still left a lot of room for interpretation and the DOJ ran with it. Just ask John Yoo. Do I think waterboarding and the other "enhanced interrogation" tactics amount to torture, personally? Yes, I do. But as far as stare decisis or a legal precedent is concerned regarding what constitutes torture in terms of U.S. definitions, there remains little ground to tie the hands of the U.S. government legally. Actually, now with the DOJ memos, the practices of Gitmo are becoming precedentially legitimate. There's even legal precedent enabling the practices of Gitmo like the AUMF for example.
I also want to re-raise a point I brought up earlier: how do you deal with an amorphous, non-state actor adversary who is actively seeking to torture/kill your civilians?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806 Likes: 632
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806 Likes: 632 |
Forgive me for not quoting everything you said. I just don't want to have one of those posts that's 6 pages long. I'll just take 5 instead.  I don't suggest we fall to their level, and I don't think we have. For lack of a way to put it eloquently since I'm in a time crunch right now, I do think it makes sense to not apply the GC to a non-state actor. Should we obligate ourselves to an international treaty which they are not part of, nor would they even come close to honoring? I do know what would happen if you stood up in China, North Korea or Iran if you spoke out against the government: you would probably get tortured or killed. That's my point. The torture or harsh punishment there does not lead to blowback in every case. It can lead to deterrence. Forgive me if I've misunderstood where you're trying to go on this one, but I don't think we disagree here. I'm pretty sure that most of the neighbors, family, etc. of the people who we pull out of homes already hated us long before we pulled that person out of the house, which is a bit extreme of an example since nearly all the people in Gitmo were seized or captured in an active combat situation. You're perfectly correct in bringing up your point on distancing between ourselves and AQ...and we do. In my limited TDY experience, I've gotten along with normal citizens of these other places. AQ is really not held in high regard in most places, which is why they've only been able to expand and regroup in states that are failing. As a whole, however, I have gotten along very well with the limited citizens and military personnel I have come across in other places. Yemen, for example, is currently a strengthening bond due to our mutual combat against AQ. I'm not familiar with a time where we blew up one city block and killed 20 civilians to get one terrorist. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I'm not aware of it. Always looking for facts, though, so if you know of this happening, send it to me. I do think we need to adjust a lot of our tactics in the places where we are present. I think we need to somehow look to garner viable business partnerships and tacitly push for a middle class. One of my favorite professors always had a good line: "If you facilitate economic improvement in these countries, you'd be surprised by how many people become more concerned with making a good living rather than blowing other people up." I think we are failing here because, in a business sense, I feel like we're absorbing and just abandoning more than facilitating. As far as city atrocities like Boston go, I definitely don't look for sympathy from people who live in Baghdad or Kabul. We're very spoiled in terms of our encounters with atrocities...and I think a lot of that comes from the tactics and abilities we have to protect ourselves. I apologize if this post is hard to follow due to stream of consciousness. I just had to type it out faster.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246 |
j/c
I'm a pretty liberal person, but I have to say I don't really have an issue with torturing these bad guys or the way our drone campaign is being carried out.
I think the biggest problem I have with torture is I'm not really sure it's all that effective. Several things I've read and several people I've talked to who do interrogations say that the best way to get information out of a suspect is to engage them in conversation and build a rapport and relationship with them.
When you start torturing, often, you just get information that's designed to stop the torture. But with relationship building, you generally get much more reliable information.
And I'm not saying that you become the suspect's friend. Far from it. But, you simply talk to them, ask the right questions at the right times, and you get results.
A friend of the family is a Cleveland police officer. He said he gets confessions out of guys all the time, but he never raises his voice, never threatens them, nothing.
He goes into the interrogation room and starts talking to the person about everything BUT the crime. How about the Indians, how about all the other crime in the community, etc. He said that sometimes it takes as little as 10 minutes to get the guy to confess or, at the very least, say something very damning about the crime.
Just my $0.02.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,153 Likes: 134
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,153 Likes: 134 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Torture can and does work. If it didn't, it wouldn't be used. Period.
I'm all for it, personally.
It might work if the person actually knows something... but what about the people that don't really have the information that our government thinks they have?
That's where you have to trust the people conducting the interview. It's their job to determine whether someone is lying or not, if the information they are getting is a ploy, or not.
Maybe that's where we differ then, because for the most part, I don't trust them to have the right people, or to know when the people are hiding something or to know when the people are lying...
I trust that they do the best they can with what they have to work with.
That's the only scary part, we're talking about government workers.
Well, wait, there are some government workers that do their jobs exceptionally well.. I can name 5 government entities that do.
Army
Navy
Marines
Air Force
Coast Guard
One other seems to be damn good,, JTTF Joint Terrorism Task Force.
Honestly, I think we hear very little about the plots that they stop.. we only hear about the ones that happen.
Even then, they, coupled with local law enforcement, State Highway Patrol and the FBI seem to do a pretty effective job of finding domestic terrorist. like these guys in Boston.
Ya know, NOT ALL government workers are bad
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
Are you really saying that the average suspect, or even the most extreme suspect, that a police officer would encounter is in some way similar to the fanatical terrorist bent on mass murder that we are talking about?
They are not even in the same ballpark.
The things our people are allowed to do are merely mildly unpleasant, to call them torture is rather a stretch. One item given was turning off the air conditioning. Oh, the humanity!
For many years, the Russians were believed to have some mysterious interrogation technique which was extremely effective. It consisted of punching people. Crude, yet effective.
With proper technique, torture will work almost every time. It is a simple matter of having the subject understand that the pain stops when correct answers are given. This involves asking some questions for which you already know the answers, and the subject does not know this.
Everything I've seen from military sources that have dealt with this issue, is that virtually everyone will "crack" within 48 hours. The US military changed it's policies on dealing with those who gave information to the enemy under torture as a result of this understanding.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Torture can and does work. If it didn't, it wouldn't be used. Period.
I'm all for it, personally.
It might work if the person actually knows something... but what about the people that don't really have the information that our government thinks they have?
That's where you have to trust the people conducting the interview. It's their job to determine whether someone is lying or not, if the information they are getting is a ploy, or not.
Maybe that's where we differ then, because for the most part, I don't trust them to have the right people, or to know when the people are hiding something or to know when the people are lying...
I trust that they do the best they can with what they have to work with.
That's the only scary part, we're talking about government workers.
Soldiers, Marines, and sailors are government workers, too.
Just as I'm sure when Ronald Reagan said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." He wasn't referring to our Military, neither am I.
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Torture can and does work. If it didn't, it wouldn't be used. Period.
I'm all for it, personally.
It might work if the person actually knows something... but what about the people that don't really have the information that our government thinks they have?
That's where you have to trust the people conducting the interview. It's their job to determine whether someone is lying or not, if the information they are getting is a ploy, or not.
Maybe that's where we differ then, because for the most part, I don't trust them to have the right people, or to know when the people are hiding something or to know when the people are lying...
I trust that they do the best they can with what they have to work with.
That's the only scary part, we're talking about government workers.
Well, wait, there are some government workers that do their jobs exceptionally well.. I can name 5 government entities that do.
Army
Navy
Marines
Air Force
Coast Guard
One other seems to be damn good,, JTTF Joint Terrorism Task Force.
Honestly, I think we hear very little about the plots that they stop.. we only hear about the ones that happen.
Even then, they, coupled with local law enforcement, State Highway Patrol and the FBI seem to do a pretty effective job of finding domestic terrorist. like these guys in Boston.
Ya know, NOT ALL government workers are bad
Very original.
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856 |
jc
seems the "blow back" is going in the opposite direction - their actions are spurring ours and our anger increases with their be headings, rapes, maiming and killing of innocents.
Torture... screw em this is war and all bets are on the table. - they started the idea that all americans are legit targets, then all of them are as well...
#gmstrong
A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,153 Likes: 134
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,153 Likes: 134 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Torture can and does work. If it didn't, it wouldn't be used. Period.
I'm all for it, personally.
It might work if the person actually knows something... but what about the people that don't really have the information that our government thinks they have?
That's where you have to trust the people conducting the interview. It's their job to determine whether someone is lying or not, if the information they are getting is a ploy, or not.
Maybe that's where we differ then, because for the most part, I don't trust them to have the right people, or to know when the people are hiding something or to know when the people are lying...
I trust that they do the best they can with what they have to work with.
That's the only scary part, we're talking about government workers.
Well, wait, there are some government workers that do their jobs exceptionally well.. I can name 5 government entities that do.
Army
Navy
Marines
Air Force
Coast Guard
One other seems to be damn good,, JTTF Joint Terrorism Task Force.
Honestly, I think we hear very little about the plots that they stop.. we only hear about the ones that happen.
Even then, they, coupled with local law enforcement, State Highway Patrol and the FBI seem to do a pretty effective job of finding domestic terrorist. like these guys in Boston.
Ya know, NOT ALL government workers are bad
Very original.
Thanks, but honestly, I'm very sorry to hear that it's original. I would have thought others knew it.. But hey, I'm not judging 
The hell I'm not 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,195 Likes: 8
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,195 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
j/c
I'm a pretty liberal person, but I have to say I don't really have an issue with torturing these bad guys or the way our drone campaign is being carried out.
I think the biggest problem I have with torture is I'm not really sure it's all that effective. Several things I've read and several people I've talked to who do interrogations say that the best way to get information out of a suspect is to engage them in conversation and build a rapport and relationship with them.
When you start torturing, often, you just get information that's designed to stop the torture. But with relationship building, you generally get much more reliable information.
And I'm not saying that you become the suspect's friend. Far from it. But, you simply talk to them, ask the right questions at the right times, and you get results.
A friend of the family is a Cleveland police officer. He said he gets confessions out of guys all the time, but he never raises his voice, never threatens them, nothing.
He goes into the interrogation room and starts talking to the person about everything BUT the crime. How about the Indians, how about all the other crime in the community, etc. He said that sometimes it takes as little as 10 minutes to get the guy to confess or, at the very least, say something very damning about the crime.
Just my $0.02.
I agree.
I think if you're wanting to torture someone you're just as well off putting a bullet in their head, because the only reliable thing torture accomplishes is self satisfaction.
I've also read reports and research that back up your buddy's story of how to get reliable info and how torture can pretty much get you any info you want the tortured to give, even if it's complete crap.
Kind of like when they would roll witches down a hill in a spiked barrel. If she died she wasn't a witch and if she lived she was a witch and would be put to death.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,853 Likes: 953
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,853 Likes: 953 |
Maybe we should offer them free healthcare and foodstamps?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2009/09/21/the-tortured-brain.html Quote: The inspector general of the CIA last month released a 2004 report on the interrogation of Al Qaeda suspects. As my colleague Mark Hosenball reported, it and other internal documents (which Cheney called on the CIA to release, believing they would back his claim) do not show that torture worked. In fact, The New York Times reported, the documents "do not refer to any specific interrogation methods and do not assess their effectiveness." Scientists do not pretend to know, in any individual case, whether torture might extract useful informationBut as neurobiologist Shane O'Mara of the Trinity College Institute of Neuroscience in Dublin explains in a paper in the journal Trends in Cognitive Science called "Torturing the Brain," "the use of such techniques appears motivated by a folk psychology that is demonstrably incorrect. Solid scientific evidence on how repeated and extreme stress and pain affect memory and executive functions (such as planning or forming intentions) suggests these techniques are unlikely to do anything other than the opposite of that intended by coercive or 'enhanced' interrogation." http://harpers.org/blog/2009/09/torture-doesnt-work-neurobiologist-says/ Quote: A 2006 Intelligence Science Board flatly noted that there was no data supporting the claim that torture produces reliable results. The 372-page report would be summed up by this passage: “The scientific community has never established that coercive interrogation methods are an effective means of obtaining reliable intelligence information. In essence, there seems to be an unsubstantiated assumption that ‘compliance’ carries the same connotation as ‘meaningful cooperation.’ ” In other words, waterboard someone or smack his head against the wall, and sure enough, he’ll open up and talk. But does that mean you’ll get reliable info that you couldn’t have gotten using more conventional techniques? Absolutely not. http://news.discovery.com/human/psychology/does-torture-work-ask-the-cia.htm Quote: In a 1988 Senate hearing on torture, the CIA admitted the use of "physical abuse or other degrading treatment was rejected, (by their interrogators) not only because it is wrong, but because it has historically proven to be ineffective." As the New York Times reported in 2007, the FBI's said "harsh methods produce unreliable information from people who will say anything to stop the pain" no matter if the information is factual or fictional.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,950 Likes: 763
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,950 Likes: 763 |
I'd never heard that quote before... that's hilarious 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806 Likes: 632
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806 Likes: 632 |
I'm with you man. I very seldom actually get insulted by posts but his pierced the threshold.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,195 Likes: 8
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,195 Likes: 8 |
Like I said, just put a bullet in their head if what you're looking for is vengeance? But if you're looking for info, torture has not proved effective. Of course the obvious option is healthcare and food stamps. Actually I don't get the idea that non-torture equals free benefits, but I guess it does. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,145
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,145 |
Quote:
Click on the link that I posted. Yes, it's Wikipedia, but you can just google the name if you want a "reputable source". It will take 30 seconds to find out that this
Quote:
These techniques are not what I would call torture in the brutal sense of the word
is just not true. I would call forcibly sodomizing someone is pretty brutal. For a board that prides itself on "looking behind the veil" so many are just willing to swallow whatever the government tells them when it comes to torture.
But when you detain people for over a decade without charging them for a crime, it's easier to just claim they're all guilty.
I'm only speaking to the techniques quoted in the article, but it's hard for me to sympathize with any technique after 9/11-sorry. Don't care if we are 'stooping' to their level, they have absolutely no problem doing their brutal worst to any and all no matter how young or old. Civilian or not. These are the dirtiest of the dirty, play by no rules, as has been mentioned they are not part of the Geneva Convention and therefore are not 'eligible' for the 'benefits' defined therein. I don't know if you have kids or not or a significant other that the loss of would literally shatter your world but I do and I don't care for the 'moral high ground' when it comes to keeping them from accomplishing our destruction.
Abu Gahraib, wouldn't have done that. Those guys were soldiers, but the Taliban, Al Qaeda, any other terrorist like these two in Boston-forget it. You're fair game far as I'm concerned.
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,272 Likes: 168
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,272 Likes: 168 |
This is a complex subject, but I will share a few viewpoints on the matter.
I think the discussion points about the effectiveness of torture are not really relevant, the fact torture was used is the point which has to be addressed.
When you adopt a position that there are circumstances where torture is an acceptable action, it opens the door to what other circumstances become appropriate for the acceptable use of torture.
The statement that bothers me most is that this was lawyered, lawyered, and then lawyered again. Somehow, that comes across as being an pre-determined answer in search of a justification to circumvent the law, which is a dangerous precedent. And I question how this "lawyering" would hold up to judgment in a court of law (domestic or international). It never has made it to judgement, therefor the fact that it was lawyered has no counter-argument to be heard in an judicial format.
From a historical perspective, Americans have looked down on the use of torture as a strategy to obtain information or a method of punishment. We know the scenarios.
So we can no longer adopt a position that all torture is bad, and must accept the fact that it will happen to Americans as a appropriate strategy to obtain actionable information for the other side.
I am more concerned that by lowering the our standards, we have exposed ourselves to future events where our use of torture becomes the justification for future actions against Americans.
There will be no playoffs. Can’t play with who we have out there and compounding it with garbage playcalling and worse execution. We don’t have good skill players on offense period. Browns 20 - Bears 17.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
I think the discussion points about the effectiveness of torture are not really relevant, the fact torture was used is the point which has to be addressed.
When you adopt a position that there are circumstances where torture is an acceptable action, it opens the door to what other circumstances become appropriate for the acceptable use of torture.
I disagree completely. The more certain I was that we were torturing people who actually had valuable information and the more certain I was that torture was the only way to get that information out of them plays a big role in my ability to condone actual torture.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 30
Rookie
|
|
Rookie
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 30 |
You know, torture wasn't adopted by the United States only after 9/11. We knew how to do this long before then.
We are dealing with people who are religious zealots. They would rather cut off their own legs than tell us anything. In their eyes they would be betraying God and cast into hell. That belief has been entrenched in them since they could speak. That is the "small" hurdle our Government has to get over to try and protect you and I.
They are not torturing the guy the next door to you. The guy next door to you is our reality, their reality is much different.
Americans don't like torture because they see the world through our reality, not theirs. As a police officer I was taught to meet aggression with just enough aggression to counteract theirs. In dealing with radical Islam, that equals torture.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
I think the biggest problem I have with torture is I'm not really sure it's all that effective. Several things I've read and several people I've talked to who do interrogations say that the best way to get information out of a suspect is to engage them in conversation and build a rapport and relationship with them.
When you start torturing, often, you just get information that's designed to stop the torture. But with relationship building, you generally get much more reliable information.
Pretty much.
Torture more often leads to what the person being tortured believes their interrogator want to hear.
Manipulating them through relationship building yields much better results, but it takes a great deal of time.
Torture can also lead to results, but with a much lower success rate and a much higher chance for error.
If there's some '24' like situation (whcih everyone likes to bring up when discussing the issue), where you have severely limited time or people will die, then torture is probably a better option than anything else. But otherwise, it's not the most efficient approach.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Quote:
I think the discussion points about the effectiveness of torture are not really relevant, the fact torture was used is the point which has to be addressed.
When you adopt a position that there are circumstances where torture is an acceptable action, it opens the door to what other circumstances become appropriate for the acceptable use of torture.
I disagree completely. The more certain I was that we were torturing people who actually had valuable information and the more certain I was that torture was the only way to get that information out of them plays a big role in my ability to condone actual torture.
What are you basing this on?
It's not exactly easy to track or chart our use of torture, but there's just as many - if not many more - cases of torture failing to glean information or gleaning incorrect information.
And that's just us.
When you go back into history ... torture is either ineffective or less effective than other means of interrogation.
It all depends on the individual and situation, of course, but if you're argument is 'I think I can condone torture because it's proven to be effective', I don't see the empirical data to back that up.
I mean, it's worked before, certainly. But so have other measures, at much higher rates of success.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 30
Rookie
|
|
Rookie
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 30 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think the discussion points about the effectiveness of torture are not really relevant, the fact torture was used is the point which has to be addressed.
When you adopt a position that there are circumstances where torture is an acceptable action, it opens the door to what other circumstances become appropriate for the acceptable use of torture.
I disagree completely. The more certain I was that we were torturing people who actually had valuable information and the more certain I was that torture was the
only way to get that information out of them plays a big role in my ability to condone actual torture.
What are you basing this on?
It's not exactly easy to track or chart our use of torture, but there's just as many - if not many more - cases of torture failing to glean information or gleaning incorrect information.
And that's just us.
When you go back into history ... torture is either ineffective or less effective than other means of interrogation.
It all depends on the individual and situation, of course, but if you're argument is 'I think I can condone torture because it's proven to be effective', I don't see the empirical data to back that up.
I mean, it's worked before, certainly. But so have other measures, at much higher rates of success.
And where do you get your facts....... last time I checked the government was not releasing the effectiveness or ineffectiveness or torture.
I will say it again, we are dealing with a totally different culture than what you are basing your statements on.
It's an ugly world.................... GO BROWNS
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
The culture doesn't really matter. Ascertaining that a certain culture or sect will all act in a similar manner is a path to making incorrect assumptions.
And I think you're giving these guys too much credit. By and large, a lot of them have been proven to be pretty unsophisticated, and pretty easily duped.
Some confessed under torture, some lied under torture, some said nothing under torture.
Some confessed after a faux-bond was built ... some lied, some said nothing, etc.
Some confessed after a (fake) bribery ... some lied, some said nothing, etc.
Uneducated religious zealots come in all shapes, sizes, levels of intelligence, mental fortitude, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
What are you basing this on?
My opinion. If somebody could convince me that torture was effective at getting reliable information that couldn't be found some other way, then I would be more willing to condone it... Was that not clear?
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Right. I understand that.
I'm saying I haven't really seen much evidence to show that it's effective at getting reliable information.
It's not a very high percentage shot.
I think sometimes the debate is shaped on 'this thing works reliably, should we use it and what does that mean morally?'
Which skips over the issue of reliable effectiveness.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,950 Likes: 763
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,950 Likes: 763 |
I think that these sorts of things are also consistently viewed/debated outside of any sort of framing/context.
This kinda goes back to the whole "you may not have the luxury of time to do it the nice way" thing. There were times when we had people snatched in Iraq and we wanted to find them before they were on the next Al Jazeera VHS tape showing a beheading. There are/were times when you capture someone in the midst of an ongoing operation and you're hoping to get time-sensitive information about the number of enemy and possible locations, etc.... Not everything can always be done the "nice" way. None of this is new to warfare, and all of it will continue to happen in the future. It's part of the game.
The effectiveness can be debated ad infinitum, but it boils down to the fact that sometimes you simply have to try the few options you have available as dictated by the situation.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,853 Likes: 953
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,853 Likes: 953 |
Also, if we find an effective method to extract information...it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to make it into the statistical effectiveness books for all to see and discuss.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
The effectiveness can be debated ad infinitum, but it boils down to the fact that sometimes you simply have to try the few options you have available as dictated by the situation.
OK, forgetting whether or not torture is effective (which I find puzzling)...
Where do you draw the line on that?
I mean, would you be OK with lopping off fingers one by one? Maybe ripping out fingernails on a less severe scale? It is an option available in a pinch, right?
What's acceptable and unacceptable? Have we drawn any lines as a nation or government? What are/were those lines, and have we crossed them?
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Report: US Resorted to Torture
After 9/11 Terror
|
|
