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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,720 |
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What's acceptable and unacceptable? Have we drawn any lines as a nation or government? What are/were those lines, and have we crossed them?
Yes, it's called The Geneva Convention.
Have we crossed them?
I'd say at this juncture, as with most things in our country, the answer has much more to do with your background and politics than anything else.
I would also say that similar tactics had been used before, just not with the approval and having the oval office condoning it.
People can try to use circumstances and fear as tools to get people to agree with things they may never have done otherwise from my experience.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,165 |
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The effectiveness can be debated ad infinitum, but it boils down to the fact that sometimes you simply have to try the few options you have available as dictated by the situation.
OK, forgetting whether or not torture is effective (which I find puzzling)...
Where do you draw the line on that?
I mean, would you be OK with lopping off fingers one by one? Maybe ripping out fingernails on a less severe scale? It is an option available in a pinch, right?
What's acceptable and unacceptable? Have we drawn any lines as a nation or government? What are/were those lines, and have we crossed them?
Personally? I don't have any use for lines.
As a government? That's for others to worry about, not me.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
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Where do you draw the line on that?
That's an extremely complicated question.. the answer to which would be very hard to put into words.
Just ask the question, if somebody kidnapped your little girl and she was going to be killed in 4 hours and you had somebody in custody in your basement that you felt pretty certain knew where she was and this guy was your only link to saving her.... where would your morals begin and end? Is there anything you wouldn't do to him to get an answer?
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
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Where do you draw the line on that?
That's an extremely complicated question.. the answer to which would be very hard to put into words.
Just ask the question, if somebody kidnapped your little girl and she was going to be killed in 4 hours and you had somebody in custody in your basement that you felt pretty certain knew where she was and this guy was your only link to saving her.... where would your morals begin and end? Is there anything you wouldn't do to him to get an answer?
There's two angles to that line of questioning.
If your child was found in North Korea, and accused of being an American spy, how would you want them to be treated?
I'm not a religious man. I know you are. I don't mean to sound condescending, and I have no right to tell you how to practice your faith. But 'do unto others', no? I mean, morals, wherever they come from, aren't supposed to be elastic. It's not supposed to be a case of 'well, this is what I believe until it becomes easier not to'.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,855 |
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Where do you draw the line on that?
That's an extremely complicated question.. the answer to which would be very hard to put into words.
Just ask the question, if somebody kidnapped your little girl and she was going to be killed in 4 hours and you had somebody in custody in your basement that you felt pretty certain knew where she was and this guy was your only link to saving her.... where would your morals begin and end? Is there anything you wouldn't do to him to get an answer?
There's two angles to that line of questioning.
If your child was found in North Korea, and accused of being an American spy, how would you want them to be treated?
I'm not a religious man. I know you are. I don't mean to sound condescending, and I have no right to tell you how to practice your faith. But 'do unto others', no? I mean, morals, wherever they come from, aren't supposed to be elastic. It's not supposed to be a case of 'well, this is what I believe until it becomes easier not to'.
I'm not a fan of torture when it crossed the line set in the Geneva Convention. But and this is a HUGE BUT.. If it's my little girl who's life is in danger,, I wouldn't even see a line. There would be no line. Lines don't exist.
So the answer is, Circumstance. Depending on the circumstance, I'd not let lines, walls, buildings, guns or anything get in my way. Nothing. That's my personal thinking.
Now, if I'm the Federal Government,, I'd like to think I'd show some restraint. Not sure I could. But I'd certainly try.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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'If it's my girl's life in danger...' isn't a valid response or argument when considering law.
If my child's life were in danger, there is no limit to what I would do.
But that doesn't make whatever I would do moral or lawful.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,855 |
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'If it's my girl's life in danger...' isn't a valid response or argument when considering law.
If my child's life were in danger, there is no limit to what I would do.
But that doesn't make whatever I would do moral or lawful.
Morals and law go out the window when it comes to loved ones.. even you feel that way.
But like I said, it's about circumstances. For a stranger, you wouldn't do what you would do for family.
Oh, and I wasn't the first to bring up the daughter thing.. someone else did it.. I was just responding with my thoughts on that.. Again, apparently you agree on the little girl thing..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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Legend
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I still fail to see how the little girl analogy is relevant.
If I had a child who was starving, I would steal to feed it, but that doesn't make an argument for condoning theft.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,855 |
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I still fail to see how the little girl analogy is relevant.
If I had a child who was starving, I would steal to feed it, but that doesn't make an argument for condoning theft.
You don't see it? Sorry! It's pretty clear
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
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I still fail to see how the little girl analogy is relevant.
If I had a child who was starving, I would steal to feed it, but that doesn't make an argument for condoning theft.
You don't see it? Sorry! It's pretty clear
How is it relevant in law?
The underlying premise here is that one would do anything for their child, i.e. f my child was starving, and I couldn't afford to feed it, I would steal in order to do so.
Now, we can all understand why one would do such a thing. But it doesn't make for a compelling reason against theft laws. If I got caught stealing from Kroger, and I told the judge it was to feed my starving kid, then it's a complex issue, but certainly one wouldn't expect authorities condone stealing to feed your child.
I'm saying I understand what DC's analogy was meant to convey. But it's an emotional argument, not a rational one.
A great deal of our most important laws exist to stifle our impulses. We didn't write laws forbidding fair trials or cruel and unusual punishment just in case a bad apple decided to try it - we wrote those laws because we are prone to do so. Our impulse is to condemn the accused and punish them savagely. That's why we have those laws - because we've decided that those impulses aren't really a great idea.
I mean, forget the subject of torture for a second - 'because my impulse would be to do it' isn't a rational argument for anything.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,195 |
j/c
If someone kidnapped my little girl and that person was in my custody, yes I would probably beat him dead.
Hopefully someone who understands kidnappers and how to get information out of them would be there to prevent me from doing that and would have a more constructive strategy.
The debate is, "Has this country engaged in torture?". It's not, "Does torture work?" or "Was the U.S. justified?" in doing it.
After failing to understand the problems of invading Iraq and failing to provide an equipped army prepared for fighting a group of terrorist/insurgents disorganized, but adequately prepared to fight and die, or consistently plant IEDs that proved to be a very successful strategy to keep our country's army on the defensive, the previous administration, and no doubt this one, resorted to enhanced interrogation they claim provided valuable information.
There's no way for them to provide truth of the value without describing what "enhanced interrogation" is, and taking the chance they broke the law.
It seems this investigation has no doubt that enhanced interrogation is actually torture and that the torture was excessive.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,692 |
J/C
I'm an active duty service member. I have zero simpathy for any member of a terrorist organization. If I were to be captured by the enemy, their feelings would be mutual. War and morality don't always line up. There are times you have to do what the general public deems "evil" in order to protect them from evil.
Those that feel otherwise, I'm proud to defend your ignorance amidst how the world truly operates outside of your comfortable lives.
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
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J/C
I'm an active duty service member. I have zero simpathy for any member of a terrorist organization. If I were to be captured by the enemy, their feelings would be mutual. War and morality don't always line up. There are times you have to do what the general public deems "evil" in order to protect them from evil.
Those that feel otherwise, I'm proud to defend your ignorance amidst how the world truly operates outside of your comfortable lives.
Thank you for your service! 
I totally agree.
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