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I find it interesting - and sad - that we don't have any players on the offense who fit the criteria here...other than some mention of Weeden and an OG.
I think we keep our QBs and OGs. Even if we draft one or both.
I think the only offensive player who fits the question is Hardesty. Yeah I know...it's a stretch that anyone would want him.
I'd move him too if the 'right' price came along...say a 4th or crazy-early 5th. I just don't know how many snaps are available with T Rich, Obiwan, and the new kid from Philly.
He seems like a 'luxury' that we could do without.
We are changing schemes on D and have some players that are still valuable in the league but may not fit here anymore.
We are also changing schemes on O and have - essentially - no one who would be coveted by another team and with whom we could afford to move.
It appears that we need every O player to survive the transition.
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I'm sorry Willie. I thought that I might hurt your feelings after I posted that. I apologize.
Honestly, that was an insult directed toward you. But, I can understand why you took it that way. Again, I'm sorry.
I really wouldn't trade any of the likely suspects. I don't think you get a good return on trades in the NFL. And what would we get in return? A draft pick? That's not a sure thing.
The only guy I wish we could trade is Weeden. I think he is a bum. I doubt that anyone would want him though and Holmgren and Heckert don't have jobs [see, I did get it in...LOL], thus the chances of that happening are almost nonexistent.
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I'm not a draft guru. I was trying to politely point out to vers that his complaint was not well-supported by statistics.
clevesteve...I used the phrase 'draft guru' only with respect.
I recollect that you post frequently on the draft and I enjoy reading your comments.
I apologize if you took that as anything other than a compliment.
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Quote:
I'm sorry Willie. I thought that I might hurt your feelings after I posted that. I apologize.
Honestly, that was an insult directed toward you. But, I can understand why you took it that way. Again, I'm sorry.
I really wouldn't trade any of the likely suspects. I don't think you get a good return on trades in the NFL. And what would we get in return? A draft pick? That's not a sure thing.
The only guy I wish we could trade is Weeden. I think he is a bum. I doubt that anyone would want him though and Holmgren and Heckert don't have jobs [see, I did get it in...LOL], thus the chances of that happening are almost nonexistent.
Apology accepted...even if unnecessary. Thanks.
I'd feel better about a trade for a draft pick if I felt better about the boys in the front office.
I'm completely willing to give them a chance - like I have a choice - but I'm quite skeptical right now. Even if so only off of Lombardi's track record. (Since I too am a bean counter...I'm willing to be more patient with Banner.  )
FWIW, I'll be ok if we end up trading no one...I've done this post in years past with hardly one guy to even create a discussion about...although I'm always willing to bring up trading DQ when we are not in a 4-3.
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J/C
For the life of me, I can't understand anybody who thinks Rubin should or would be traded. The guy has produced in both defensive sets and is a model player and teammate.Also those who think 6 DL is too mush are delusional.
I am also in agreement with the poster above that pointed out people suggesting trading some of our better players to pick up draft picks so that they can draft a player for their position, it's actually friggin hilarious.
This team has been lacking of quality players with experience, but no we have a few, and the fantasy GMs on this message board want to move them for some untested rookies. I love the football conversations on this board, but these FA and draft threads are just goofy. I swear some of you guys actually believe you know more than the professionals that have been doing this for a living for years.
As for the title of the thread, my answer is ...Why?
#gmstrong
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I agree with everything you said. Trading the only guy on the team that's proven he understands and can play in the 3-4 would be beyond stupid
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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If I thought the Browns were receiving proper value for a player, there would be NOBODY on the team that I would not be willing to trade. Not a single player.
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If I thought the Browns were receiving proper value for a player, there would be NOBODY on the team that I would not be willing to trade. Not a single player.
yep. +1
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Great way to build continuity 
#gmstrong
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Great way to build continuity
great way to build a team. stick with players that gave a 5/11, 4/12/, 5/11 record.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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You act as if every player on this team sucks, and scheme and coaching have no effect. How does trading a proven commodity such as Rubin, for an untested rookie improving anything for sure?
So in your logic, if they can get 3 1st round picks for Thomas they should do it? Some players are just not that easy to replace. IMO all this "value" talk from message board posters is all crap. I blame fantasy football. I've met numerous people who think that because they win in fantasy football, they actually have the know how to run a real team. I find it hilarious.
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Actually I think if you keep him and he fails the 3-4 adjustment, then he does become damaged goods. Not physically, but teams that want him will know he no longer fits our plans. Right now teams that want to trade for him can at least be told we believe he is still valuable to us.
IF he proves he can't make it with us, our negotiating strength goes out the wondow.
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For the life of me, I can't understand anybody who thinks Rubin should or would be traded. The guy has produced in both defensive sets and is a model player and teammate.Also those who think 6 DL is too mush are delusional.
I am also in agreement with the poster above that pointed out people suggesting trading some of our better players to pick up draft picks so that they can draft a player for their position, it's actually friggin hilarious.
Yes, thank you. Django and I and several others have been saying this ever since Horton was hired.
Stepping outside that, while I don't have any knowledge of our defensive scheme, I don't understand why the browns are putting the more disruptive Taylor at nose while Rubin, who has much better gap integrity and pro 3-4 nose experience is put outside against taller offensive tackles. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
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Actually I think if you keep him and he fails the 3-4 adjustment, then he does become damaged goods. Not physically, but teams that want him will know he no longer fits our plans. Right now teams that want to trade for him can at least be told we believe he is still valuable to us.
IF he proves he can't make it with us, our negotiating strength goes out the wondow.
Most of the teams in the NFL play a 4-3 front.
If we don't want him because he can't transition to the 3-4, there will be plenty of teams to compete for him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Also those who think 6 DL is too mush are delusional.
5 or 6 starter-quality players on a 3-4 defensive line is delusional when said team also has gaping holes at other positions, AND no second round draft pick.
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I am also in agreement with the poster above that pointed out people suggesting trading some of our better players to pick up draft picks so that they can draft a player for their position, it's actually friggin hilarious.
I agree with this for the most part, but I like I've already posted, if this team receives a low-first/early-second for Sheard, they absolutely need to take the deal and run. Of course, they probably won't receive this much, but we'll see.
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Stepping outside that, while I don't have any knowledge of our defensive scheme, I don't understand why the browns are putting the more disruptive Taylor at nose while Rubin, who has much better gap integrity and pro 3-4 nose experience is put outside against taller offensive tackles. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Yeah, I thought this was strange as well.
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Here's the problem though ...... we don't have 5-6 starter level players on the DL.
We have 3 starters in Rubin, Bryant and Taylor. We have promising backups in Hughes and Winn, We have a backup in Kitchen. The backups are solid backups .... but that doesn't mean that they are somehow starter level players. They might get there one day, but they aren't there yet.
Plus, with the way that teams rotate their DL players, a team needs at least 5-6 DL to rotate in and out of the game. You cannot have a weakness at any of the positions, or else teams will take immediate advantage. Your backups aren't going to be as good as your starters, but they have to be good enough to not get blown out of position.
Moving Rubin creates a massive hole, and one that would have to be addressed high in the draft. Creating a hole just to fill it makes no sense to me.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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YTown...you are assuming Rubin can make the switch to a 3-4 DE.
I think he can...I hope he can...but what if Horton thinks he cannot?
nrtu...
Why do people get their boxers-in-a-bunch over threads that are designed to actually get people to talk about the abilities of certain players, where we are as a team, and how can we get better as quickly as we'd all like?
I cannot trade or keep anyone. I am as far from a GM-wannabe as one can get. Not one Browns employee has ever asked me for my opinion on trading or drafting or signing or releasing any player. Nor should they. I've got my hands full with my own life and the things I actually think I can control.
If people will actually relax on the topic of the thread and see where it's going, some good points will surely come out of it.
Why would I want to trade any player? To get better...that's why!
If you disagree that trading someone/anyone can make us better...than say so. It shouldn't be hard if you have an opinion.
My goodness...it's a message board.
Lastly, I am always amused at people who get all upset at a thread topic and think it's silly...yet take the time to respond about "why" the thread exists.
If you think it's silly, move on. If you have something to say...say it. It's not that difficult.
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I agree with everything you said. Trading the only guy on the team that's proven he understands and can play in the 3-4 would be beyond stupid
Except for the pesky little facts that he's never played in THIS type of a 3-4 before...and never in the position he's being asked to play THIS year.
I hope he can do it...I think he can do it...I won't be shocked if we decide he cannot do it and we trade him.
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Of course I think that Rubin can make the switch ..... because, he has played on a 3-4 DL. If nothing else, he could be a Pro Bowl level NT. However, most DE in the 3-4 were DT in a 4-3 previously. Rubin has been both an exceptional NT in a 3-4, and an exceptional DT in a 4-3. He knows what to expect, and he has worked his body into shape to play on the outside at DE in the 3-4.
he has size, unusual agility for his size, and strength ..... plus he can run. He is the epitome of the "big man who can run".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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He is the epitome of the "big man who can run".
Horton probably loves Rubin haha... Rube is a hustler too, with a good motor...
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~ Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
He is the epitome of the "big man who can run".
Horton probably loves Rubin haha... Rube is a hustler too, with a good motor...
That just means we should trade him for a 5th.
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Here's the problem though ...... we don't have 5-6 starter level players on the DL.
We have 3 starters in Rubin, Bryant and Taylor. We have promising backups in Hughes and Winn, We have a backup in Kitchen. The backups are solid backups .... but that doesn't mean that they are somehow starter level players. They might get there one day, but they aren't there yet.
Just because they don't start in Cleveland doesn't mean that they aren't starter-caliber players.
Both Hughes and Winn would be starting on quite a few of this league's 3-4 teams, at from what I've seen by watching their play and by hearing others' sentiments about them.
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Plus, with the way that teams rotate their DL players, a team needs at least 5-6 DL to rotate in and out of the game. You cannot have a weakness at any of the positions, or else teams will take immediate advantage. Your backups aren't going to be as good as your starters, but they have to be good enough to not get blown out of position.
There's a lot of good 3-4 defenses who don't have near the defensive line depth that the Browns do.
Not to be preachy here, but gathering a few fresh perspectives would shed some insight on this topic for some IMO. Just by browsing other teams' 3-4 defensive lines (and researching each player to get a general feel about the overall talent level of the entire unit), I think some might come to the conclusion that the Browns are absolutely loaded in this respect.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I'll confidently claim that the Browns have the best 3-4 defensive line (note that I'm not saying front seven) in the league on paper. It's too bad that they're also woefully ill-equipped at the CB and FS positions. But that's another topic.
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Moving Rubin creates a massive hole, and one that would have to be addressed high in the draft. Creating a hole just to fill it makes no sense to me.
I wouldn't trade Rubin either, as I don't think the Browns would receive adequate value in return for him.
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Great way to build continuity
In Cleveland? In this age of NFL free agency?
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Browns draft EJ Manuel with their #6 pick and trade Brandon Weeden.
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Weeden has trade value?
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Quote:
Weeden has trade value?
They traded Colt McCoy. 
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Going into this season ...... just going off of CBS ...... The Ravens, in their 3-4 base defense will have:
DE Arthur Jones 47 tackles, 4.5 sacks
DE Marcus Spears 25 tackles, 1 sack (with Cowboys)
DE Pernell McPhee 21 tackles, 1.5 sacks
DE Haloti Ngata 51 tackles, 5 sacks
DE Chris Canty 26 tackles, 3 sacks (with Giants)
NT Terrence Cody 25 tackles, 0 sacks
....... and a few youngsters. This is before the draft as well.
They also added Dumervil, but he will almost certainly be an OLB.
That's just one 3-4 team.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
Weeden has trade value?
They traded Colt McCoy.
Well bugs, point made right there. Very true man.
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At the risk of hijacking my own thread...but it seems to fit here now...
Let's say we are good to go with Bryant, Winn, and Rubin at DE.
Then we've got Taylor, Hughes, and Kitchen at NT.
I think Kitchen is only a NT in a 3-4...I thought that Taylor was a 'sure thing' to move to DE...I have no opinion as to whether Hughes can play both positions.
So...who would be the 4th DE...assuming we need one?
I'm guessing it's Taylor? Or maybe the hybrid 4-3 kicks in to keep the above 3 DE's fresh by rotating in two DTs at times?
Maybe Kruger plays a little 3-4 end?
I guess in a perfect world we'd have 4 DEs and 2 NTs...or in a world not so hybrid.
I am curious what people think of Hughes as he seems to be as much a question mark as anyone else.
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I think that some guys can play both DE and NT ..... plus we'll probably play some 4 and 5 man line that will see different rotations.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I agree. Plus, the Ravens call Ngata a DE when he often plays zero or one technique. So I don't think we can/should really pigeonhole these guys.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Quote:
At the risk of hijacking my own thread...but it seems to fit here now...
Let's say we are good to go with Bryant, Winn, and Rubin at DE.
Then we've got Taylor, Hughes, and Kitchen at NT.
I think Kitchen is only a NT in a 3-4...I thought that Taylor was a 'sure thing' to move to DE...I have no opinion as to whether Hughes can play both positions.
So...who would be the 4th DE...assuming we need one?
I'm guessing it's Taylor? Or maybe the hybrid 4-3 kicks in to keep the above 3 DE's fresh by rotating in two DTs at times?
Maybe Kruger plays a little 3-4 end?
I guess in a perfect world we'd have 4 DEs and 2 NTs...or in a world not so hybrid.
I am curious what people think of Hughes as he seems to be as much a question mark as anyone else.
It's only been one year seeing Hughes but I worry about him playing any position on the line in this style of 3-4. I think he's better suited as a 4-3DT, the same way I feel about Rubin. Hughes did get some playing time in the 3-4 in Cincinnati when Brian Kelly was there. He played ok. Cincinnati used multiple fronts then and he was a sophomore or something like that. He wasn't on the field all that often.
I don't see him having the ability to provide pressure the 3-4 DE in this scheme will be asked to do. Again, same with Rubin. I also don't see Hughes strong enough to hold his position and eat up gaps as a NT. Maybe he can continue to get better at this as he is only going into his second year. Unlike some posters, I'm not writing anyone off after such a short period if time, but I do think it's a good thing we are not relying on him to start. As for Rubin, no matter how much weight he supposedly lost, I still think him playing as a 3-4DE won't work out. I'd think his best position in this 3-4 is NT but think Taylor is better there than he, even with Rubin having NFL experience in a different style 3-4, Taylor also played some NT at Baylor.
I hope Rubin can make the change, if not Winn IMO can become a beast and future starter as a 3-4DE. Not sure when it will happen but I think at some point, if players are all the same on the line, it will be BRYANT (DE), TAYLOR (NT), WINN (DE) as our starting line. Not sure what will happen with Hughes, Rubin, Kitchen.
JMHO
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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I agree. Plus, the Ravens call Ngata a DE when he often plays zero or one technique. So I don't think we can/should really pigeonhole these guys.
I understand what you are saying...and I'm guessing Horton feels the exact same way about not pigeon-holeing his guys.
However, I don't see Kitchen at any spot but the NT or DT in a 4-3 / hybrid gig. If I had to say today...I'd say the same thing for Hughes.
Who knows...maybe the plan is to develop Hughes and Kitchen at the NT - with much help there from Taylor this year - in hopes of moving Taylor to more-of-a-DE for NEXT year.
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I hope we trade no one. It's amazing these types of threads are the most popular.
The only reason threads like these exist is because we turn over the FO and coaching staff every 2 years.
And every FO and coaching staff wants their own guys with their own contracts.
It wouldn't surpise me at all to learn that Banner and Lombardi really, really like Rubin the player ...but not at the price they are paying him and that ...not any real football reason mind you ...will potentially cause Rubin to be dealt. That's not necessarily a slam on those two.....This is what new FOs do.
I will be extremely pissed if we trade Rubin or Sheard and that will magnify if we parlay either into Ryan Mallet.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I doubt Rubin or Jaball is even being shopped by this team... honestly.
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jc
You know, we could always see who is getting traded by how many Browns fans own the player's jersey.
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LMAO! So true though. That is why I bought my Joe Thomas jersey and I haven't bought any other since haha...
I laughed at all the people who had rushed out to get their #40 Peyton Hillis jersey... Waste of $.
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~ Legend
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LMAO! So true though. That is why I bought my Joe Thomas jersey and I haven't bought any other since haha...
I laughed at all the people who had rushed out to get their #40 Peyton Hillis jersey... Waste of $.
I hope you can say that with the same tone when you see Chris Berman get awoken from his 7th round nap to announce the Browns have traded Joe Thomas for a 7th round pick to a defunct XFL team.
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Quote:
Going into this season ...... just going off of CBS ...... The Ravens, in their 3-4 base defense will have:
DE Arthur Jones 47 tackles, 4.5 sacks
DE Marcus Spears 25 tackles, 1 sack (with Cowboys)
DE Pernell McPhee 21 tackles, 1.5 sacks
DE Haloti Ngata 51 tackles, 5 sacks
DE Chris Canty 26 tackles, 3 sacks (with Giants)
NT Terrence Cody 25 tackles, 0 sacks
....... and a few youngsters. This is before the draft as well.
They also added Dumervil, but he will almost certainly be an OLB.
That's just one 3-4 team.
This is how I would break that down:
DE Arthur Jones 47 tackles, 4.5 sacks — Good player.
DE Marcus Spears 25 tackles, 1 sack (with Cowboys) — He's completely washed-up, just a name at this point.
DE Pernell McPhee 21 tackles, 1.5 sacks — He's decent, only good at pressuring the QB.
DE Haloti Ngata 51 tackles, 5 sacks — Great player.
DE Chris Canty 26 tackles, 3 sacks (with Giants) — He's decent, being injured constantly really hurts his value as a player.
NT Terrence Cody 25 tackles, 0 sacks — He's terrible; people assume he's good because he starts for the Ravens, weighs a gazillion pounds, and was drafted in the second round. But pretty much all Ravens fans say he is awful. In other words, there's a reason Ngata is moving to NT next year...
This line is worse than the Browns IMO, at least on paper, which I made a point of mentioning in my previous post. The Browns line fits a 3-4 schematically (although I thought Rubin was going to be NT and Taylor was going be 5T), is younger, has more potential, and is just as talented in the short-term.
Bryant, Taylor, Rubin, Hughes, Winn, Kitchen >>>>> Ngata, Jones, McPhee, Spears, Canty, Cody
JHMO.
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