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What if the calculation of the rebate due...and the rebate actually paid were the same?
What if the calculation itself was flawed? And there was no reason to believe it was flawed?
Why didn't the customers notice that their refunds were less than THEY expected?
The companies targeted were the the less tech savvy companies.
When you figure that a trucking company could have hundreds of drivers getting receipts from Pilot Flying J stations two or three stations a day, but rebates might be paid every 30, 45, 60, or 90 days... it is quite easy to see how quickly a non-technological billing and accounting dept could get overwhelmed in trying to reconcile what they should have gotten vs what they didn't get.
Most trucking companies that don't have good software struggle to simply pay drivers for the correct number of miles (and ensure that the drivers aren't ripping them off for extra miles), let alone properly managing their fuel costs.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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It would've probably been best for him to wait and pay settlements. Even with good intentions it seems legally inappropriate to start handing back money now.
Perhaps.
However, I am not a lawyer, so I am not sure regarding a more "finesse"d" aspect of this whole situation. Maybe a lawyer can help.
Haslam's company was raided under the authority granted by an indictment. Right? But, being indicted is not the same as being charged with a crime, and the government would still have to charge Haslam and/or his company in court in order for this case to go to trial.
Until charges are filed, there cannot be witness tampering in a situation like this. It would just be good business for a company who was made aware of such a situation to try and fix it, from a customer relations point of view.
It's not witness tampering, because they are merely fixing a mistake, not asking people to do anything in exchange for fixing the problem. Once formal charges are filed, then it might be inappropriate for the company to do anything about this "mistake".
Am I right here?
When I worked for the litigation firm, the managing partner's motto was always that every letter, action, etc., no matter who it was actually written to, should never be targeted toward opposing counsel or the opposing party, but rather, targeted toward the view of a hypothetical jury.
Considering the type of jury he would get in this case, I don't think it's out of the question that Haslam or his attorney may have had the same type of thing in mind.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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J/C
It bothers me to no end some of these excuses being made for Haslam. It's the epitome of our nation....'I'm not responsible...who can we blame'... BULL! Listen people, when you choose to run a company, YOU'RE FRICKIN RESPONSIBLE for that companies actions.....PERIOD! But I didn't know....really? It's your frickin job to know!
All the corporate fraud cases like Enron, WorldCom, Tyco...who went down? Another more important question is, do you really respect or want a man to run the Browns when he claims he didn't know what was happening? Not ME! Haslam is a LIAR! He's tampering with witnesses now. I don't give a damn how his lawyer tries to spin it.He's paying them off AFTER being investigated for years.
Hey Jimmy, you know those monthly reports you're suppose to review every month from EVERY department that's part of your job description? Try reviewing them once.
Sorry for the rant! IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE!
Last edited by daytnabacker; 04/25/13 03:56 PM.
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Hey Jimmy, you know those monthly reports you're suppose to review every month from EVERY department that's part of your job description? Try reviewing them once.
You know Jimmy's job description? Hate to break it to you, but a CEO of a 25B+ company is not going to review every accounting report - he is looking at things at a MUCH higher level than a few million in unpaid rebates. He may or may not have known what was going on. If he did, he is an unethical businessman and I hope he is punished accordingly. On the flip side, if he knew nothing about it he probably is sincere about paying the unpaid rebates to his customers. We'll probably never know the whole store, but I'm not ready to hang the guy yet.
Of course, he is the head honcho, and even if he didn't know about it his company should still receive some sort of hefty fine if the allegations are true. "The buck stops" at him, and that is part of being a CEO - you'll often take the fall for things outside of your control.
#gmstrong
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Your "the buck stops with him" comment made me think of something. He should just blame it all on the previous CEO.
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You know Jimmy's job description? Hate to break it to you, but a CEO of a 25B+ company is not going to review every accounting report - he is looking at things at a MUCH higher level than a few million in unpaid rebates. He may or may not have known what was going on. If he did, he is an unethical businessman and I hope he is punished accordingly. On the flip side, if he knew nothing about it he probably is sincere about paying the unpaid rebates to his customers. We'll probably never know the whole store, but I'm not ready to hang the guy yet.
Of course, he is the head honcho, and even if he didn't know about it his company should still receive some sort of hefty fine if the allegations are true. "The buck stops" at him, and that is part of being a CEO - you'll often take the fall for things outside of your control.
I know the job description of a CEO because I am one..not a multi-billion $ company but a company in the m's. For your Information, it IS his responsibility. Here's why; Pilot wasn't always a billion dollar company. It grew into it. The formula and responsibilities are the same. The volume and number employees increase...THAT'S IT!
How big was Enron, Tyco, Worldcom?
Didn't Jimmy say when he bought the Browns he was going to change the culture? Hold people accountable? Guess what...accountability starts at the TOP! The Feds have recorded conversations of Jimmy about the fraud.... WHAT DON'T YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?
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It bothers me to no end some of these excuses being made for Haslam. It's the epitome of our nation....'I'm not responsible...who can we blame'... BULL! Listen people, when you choose to run a company, YOU'RE FRICKIN RESPONSIBLE for that companies actions.....PERIOD! But I didn't know....really? It's your frickin job to know!
So, I guess you feel as if he's guilty and should be punished and it doesn't matter to you that he hasn't even been arrested, indicted, convicted or anything like that. In fact, they haven't proven he knew. but according to you, the Owner of an 18 billion dollar company knows everything about every single day to day operation right?
And of course, since rebates are routine and customary in that industry, Haslam is supposed to know, by simply looking at the numbers and know that they are all legit or not.
Yeah,, right
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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So, I guess you feel as if he's guilty and should be punished and it doesn't matter to you that he hasn't even been arrested, indicted, convicted or anything like that. In fact, they haven't proven he knew. but according to you, the Owner of an 18 billion dollar company knows everything about every single day to day operation right?
And of course, since rebates are routine and customary in that industry, Haslam is supposed to know, by simply looking at the numbers and know that they are all legit or not.
Yeah,, right
Stop with your excuses Daman. Not knowing (which he did because they have recordings of him talking about it) does not alleviate RESPONSIBILITY. What don't you understand about that?
Tell a judge you didn't know and what do you think he's going to say? Ignorance is no excuse is what he'll say man....Sheesh man up already!
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I think he's guilty, but holy jebus let this play out.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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So, I guess you feel as if he's guilty and should be punished and it doesn't matter to you that he hasn't even been arrested, indicted, convicted or anything like that. In fact, they haven't proven he knew. but according to you, the Owner of an 18 billion dollar company knows everything about every single day to day operation right?
And of course, since rebates are routine and customary in that industry, Haslam is supposed to know, by simply looking at the numbers and know that they are all legit or not.
Yeah,, right
Stop with your excuses Daman. Not knowing (which he did because they have recordings of him talking about it) does not alleviate RESPONSIBILITY. What don't you understand about that?
Tell a judge you didn't know and what do you think he's going to say? Ignorance is no excuse is what he'll say man....Sheesh man up already!
I think you need to let it go,, your about to stroke out.. He's not guilty of anything until the courts say he is.. Until then, he's John Q. Public living out life as an innocent man..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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So, I guess you feel as if he's guilty and should be punished and it doesn't matter to you that he hasn't even been arrested, indicted, convicted or anything like that. In fact, they haven't proven he knew. but according to you, the Owner of an 18 billion dollar company knows everything about every single day to day operation right?
And of course, since rebates are routine and customary in that industry, Haslam is supposed to know, by simply looking at the numbers and know that they are all legit or not.
Yeah,, right
Stop with your excuses Daman. Not knowing (which he did because they have recordings of him talking about it) does not alleviate RESPONSIBILITY. What don't you understand about that?
Tell a judge you didn't know and what do you think he's going to say? Ignorance is no excuse is what he'll say man....Sheesh man up already!
I read everything available (I think) and the only recordings they have are of other employees discussing that Haslam knew about it. They do not have Haslam on record as far as I know.
#gmstrong
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So, I guess you feel as if he's guilty and should be punished and it doesn't matter to you that he hasn't even been arrested, indicted, convicted or anything like that. In fact, they haven't proven he knew. but according to you, the Owner of an 18 billion dollar company knows everything about every single day to day operation right?
And of course, since rebates are routine and customary in that industry, Haslam is supposed to know, by simply looking at the numbers and know that they are all legit or not.
Yeah,, right
Stop with your excuses Daman. Not knowing (which he did because they have recordings of him talking about it) does not alleviate RESPONSIBILITY. What don't you understand about that?
Tell a judge you didn't know and what do you think he's going to say? Ignorance is no excuse is what he'll say man....Sheesh man up already!
I read everything available (I think) and the only recordings they have are of other employees discussing that Haslam knew about it. They do not have Haslam on record as far as I know.
Ya know, in the final analysis, he may be guilty,, I'd just like people to let it play out before hanging the guy..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You know Jimmy's job description? Hate to break it to you, but a CEO of a 25B+ company is not going to review every accounting report - he is looking at things at a MUCH higher level than a few million in unpaid rebates. He may or may not have known what was going on. If he did, he is an unethical businessman and I hope he is punished accordingly. On the flip side, if he knew nothing about it he probably is sincere about paying the unpaid rebates to his customers. We'll probably never know the whole store, but I'm not ready to hang the guy yet.
Of course, he is the head honcho, and even if he didn't know about it his company should still receive some sort of hefty fine if the allegations are true. "The buck stops" at him, and that is part of being a CEO - you'll often take the fall for things outside of your control.
I know the job description of a CEO because I am one..not a multi-billion $ company but a company in the m's. For your Information, it IS his responsibility. Here's why; Pilot wasn't always a billion dollar company. It grew into it. The formula and responsibilities are the same. The volume and number employees increase...THAT'S IT!
How big was Enron, Tyco, Worldcom?
Didn't Jimmy say when he bought the Browns he was going to change the culture? Hold people accountable? Guess what...accountability starts at the TOP! The Feds have recorded conversations of Jimmy about the fraud.... WHAT DON'T YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?
I own my own company as well. I don't call myself CEO and it isn't as big of a company you run, but based on the way you are acting I certainly would not want to work for you. Jump to conclusions often? Look, I feel he had some involvement - maybe even a lot. At a minimum because he is the CEO he holds some responsibility regardless of what he knows - I already said that above. Let it play out is all I am saying. You should know this since you run a company - take everything in, analyze it after all parties get a chance to discuss involvement and go from there. We only know what the Feds have told us thus far.
Last edited by columbusdawg; 04/25/13 06:29 PM.
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Ya know, in the final analysis, he may be guilty,, I'd just like people to let it play out before hanging the guy..
No problem Daman, my issue is with the lame excuses being thrown out there not that you want to defend him. Think about this for a moment; Let's say Jimmy did discover this before the Feds did. He went to his sales manager and that manager fed Haslam with the I didn't know excuse. How long do you think it would take for that manager to be escorted out the door and charges of embezzlement or fraud came about?
I would and will NEVER tolerate such a BS excuse like that.
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I own my own company as well. I don't call myself CEO and it isn't as big of a company you run, but based on the way you are acting I certainly would not want to work for you. Jump to conclusions often? Look, I feel he had some involvement - maybe even a lot. At a minimum because he is the CEO he holds some responsibility regardless of what he knows - I already said that above. Let it play out is all I am saying. You should know this since you run a company - take everything in, analyze it after all parties get a chance to discuss involvement and go from there. We only know what the Feds have told us thus far.
First, I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'll try to find the article that specifically said an employee informant turned over to the Feds a taped conversation he had with Jimmy about the fraud...ok?
Second, if you ever fed me an excuse like 'I didn't know' when it comes to a crime, your ass is leaving my building pronto and you would be very lucky if I opened the door first....ok? It's my ass that's on the line. My reputation that's on the line. My efforts that started the company long before any employee was ever hired. You expect me as CEO to accept 'I didn't know'?
Use some common sense and take your heart out of it because it's the Browns owner that's under investigation.
BTW, I reward my employees for exceptional service in a manner of college tuition, down payment on a house, all expenses paid travel, or a brand new car. So who's jumping to conclusions about working for me?
Last edited by daytnabacker; 04/25/13 06:53 PM.
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I worked for a company a bit larger than Jimmy's.
Every year,at the national sales conference "The Man" was there.Before he arrived he had a very good feel for what was happening,and before he boarded his plane back to Japan,he knew every detail about what was going on in his sales depts.
Granted,"The Man" was an exceptional human being,but he would be the only person I know to judge Jimmy on.And on that scale I see Jimmy as either a thief,if he knew about the scam,or an incompetent leader if he didn't.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I worked for a company a bit larger than Jimmy's.
Every year,at the national sales conference "The Man" was there.Before he arrived he had a very good feel for what was happening,and before he boarded his plane back to Japan,he knew every detail about what was going on in his sales depts.
Granted,"The Man" was an exceptional human being,but he would be the only person I know to judge Jimmy on.And on that scale I see Jimmy as either a thief,if he knew about the scam,or an incompetent leader if he didn't.
God bless you BC...A MAN WITH INTEGRITY!
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j/c Trucking company asks for restraining order against Jimmy Haslam, owner of Pilot Flying J and Cleveland Browns CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Attorneys for a tiny trucking company asked a Tennessee judge today to stop Jimmy Haslam from calling and attempting to settle with customers linked to a federal investigation involving Pilot Flying J’s fuel rebate program. Lawyers for Atlantic Coast Carriers of Hazlehurst, Ga., filed a request for a temporary restraining order in Knox County Circuit Court, seeking to prevent Haslam from dealing with trucking companies until a full investigation is completed. The company filed a class-action lawsuit Saturday, claiming Pilot Flying J duped its customers. An FBI affidavit last week claimed Pilot Flying J sales people targeted unsophisticated companies and defrauded some for years. It said the employees withheld fuel price rebates to boost profitability and increase their commissions and that Haslam knew about the scheme. The document said he attended meetings where sales people discussed the issue. The request for the restraining order says "it is abundantly clear" that Pilot Flying J never intended to repay the money withheld from the companies — until the "scheme was brought to light." It also says Haslam’s calls to trucking companies "may constitute an improper attempt to coerce parties and witnesses under Tennessee law." "This is a public relations stunt by a company that got its hand caught in the cookie jar," said Mark Tate, one of the attorneys representing Atlantic Coast Carriers. He stressed that it is impossible to tell how much customers lost, as details of the investigation are in the early stages. The document filed today said that Haslam, at a recent session with reporters, said it would take one to two months to determine the amounts owed to customers. But attorneys for Atlantic Coast Carriers said Pilot Flying J now seeks "to unilaterally determine what is owed to these (companies) and approach these same targeted companies after years of being short-changed in a brutal economy and a tough business in which to make a profit." The document said Pilot Flying J’s "back-room meetings and secret attempts to pay off injured claimants should not be allowed to continue." Nashville attorney Aubrey Harwell Jr., who was hired by Pilot after the FBI raid last week, called the document’s allegations of witness tampering "absolutely outrageous. The company is trying to do the right thing and the company is trying to pay money it owes. And somehow that translates into witness tampering. "It’s unfair," he said. "It’s outrageous." It is unclear when a judge will decide the issue. Haslam is expected at Browns headquarters in Berea tonight for the NFL Draft but it is unknown whether he will remain there past the first round this evening. Atlantic Coast Carriers’ filing comes a day after The Plain Dealer reported Haslam’s calls to trucking companies. Some legal experts chided the practice, saying it could appear as an attempt to interfere with witnesses. Others said Haslam appeared simply to correct a wrong. The paper’s story was an exhibit in today’s filing. The newspaper also reported that W.N. Morehouse Trucking Line of Omaha blasted Haslam last week in an interview and on Facebook. Within days, Haslam called Morehouse several times and agreed to a settlement with the company. Curt Morehouse, an official with the company, who had ripped Pilot Flying J after reading the FBI document had a change of heart after the settlement. He later praised Haslam. "That’s a real life, real time example of what happens when you dangle a check in front of a company," Tate said. Other companies have told The Plain Dealer that they have been contacted by Haslam or his company, as well. http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf...#incart_m-rpt-2
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Ya know, in the final analysis, he may be guilty,, I'd just like people to let it play out before hanging the guy..
No problem Daman, my issue is with the lame excuses being thrown out there not that you want to defend him. Think about this for a moment; Let's say Jimmy did discover this before the Feds did. He went to his sales manager and that manager fed Haslam with the I didn't know excuse. How long do you think it would take for that manager to be escorted out the door and charges of embezzlement or fraud came about?
I would and will NEVER tolerate such a BS excuse like that.
FYI, I own my own company also,, I was also a VP of a 50 million dollar division of a staffing company with 24 office under my control and 80 staff employees..
Trust me, I'm damn good, I caught a lot of people trying to steal.. But I always wondered if I got them all.. And I may never know.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Really Haslam hopefully wil clean up after this. As he needs to start worrying about the company before the Browns!
May Day, May Flowers, Memorial and Mother's Day!
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You know Jimmy's job description? Hate to break it to you, but a CEO of a 25B+ company ... Of course, he is the head honcho, and even if he didn't know about it his company should still receive some sort of hefty fine if the allegations are true. "The buck stops" at him, and that is part of being a CEO
Unless, of course, you're the CEO of a multi-trillion dollar nation.
Then you blame all your crimes, misdemeanors, and screw-ups on the Republicans in the House of Representatives, confidant that the lame-stream news media will back you all the way.
Hmmm, maybe Haslam should just give free cell phones to potential jurors ... 
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Didn't Jimmy say when he bought the Browns he was going to change the culture? Hold people accountable? ...
It appears he is holding people accountable: he's holding them accountable for his at minimum lack of oversight at maximum his own crimes.
Worst thing about this is that with billions in revenue, Flying J was endangering the whole operation for a few million in extra profits.
They risked indictments, massive fines, lawsuits, and federal prison time for 0.1% of revenue???? Weren't they happy with making 100's of millions in legit profits??
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FYI, I own my own company also,, I was also a VP of a 50 million dollar division of a staffing company with 24 office under my control and 80 staff employees..
Trust me, I'm damn good, I caught a lot of people trying to steal.. But I always wondered if I got them all.. And I may never know.
Your real name Jay L.? You sound like an old friend of mine that ran a staffing company up there. Sammy ran Cleveland PM back about 20 yrs ago?
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I worked for a company a bit larger than Jimmy's.
Every year,at the national sales conference "The Man" was there.Before he arrived he had a very good feel for what was happening,and before he boarded his plane back to Japan,he knew every detail about what was going on in his sales depts.
Granted,"The Man" was an exceptional human being,but he would be the only person I know to judge Jimmy on.And on that scale I see Jimmy as either a thief,if he knew about the scam,or an incompetent leader if he didn't.
Honest question. How much of "The Man" knowing every detail about the sales department was directly related to his individual supervisors also being exceptional human beings and knowing every detail about their departments?
Really, i'm not trying to demean your former boss or anything. It's just that a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. If of the department supervisors are legit, then chances are the the boss is also legit, if not...
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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First, I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'll try to find the article that specifically said an employee informant turned over to the Feds a taped conversation he had with Jimmy about the fraud...ok?
Yes you are. Both sides have not yet been heard. That is all I am saying - if he is guilty, then he deserves to be punished.
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Second, if you ever fed me an excuse like 'I didn't know' when it comes to a crime, your ass is leaving my building pronto and you would be very lucky if I opened the door first....ok? It's my ass that's on the line. My reputation that's on the line. My efforts that started the company long before any employee was ever hired. You expect me as CEO to accept 'I didn't know'?
What if you don't know? There are times when people do not know. Now if it was their job, their department, and they say that then sure they should be gone. But a CEO not knowing everything that is going on is not uncommon. I guarantee you there are things going on at your company you do not know about event though it is not as large as Haslams. I am not defending the guy, I am just saying we need to wait and see what the whole story is.
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Use some common sense and take your heart out of it because it's the Browns owner that's under investigation.
Really? I could give a crap about Haslam. I have no "heart" in this whatsoever - it is you that seems to have your heart in it as you are getting awfully upset abut it. I am saying lets see what happens, you are ready to fry him before knowing all of the facts. Again, I do think he is likely guilty of something - to what extent I am unsure.
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BTW, I reward my employees for exceptional service in a manner of college tuition, down payment on a house, all expenses paid travel, or a brand new car. So who's jumping to conclusions about working for me?
Good for you. That is how companies should be ran. Your demeanor on this thread would lead me to believe you are a fly off the handle type of person. Yelling, telling people to open their eyes, etc makes one believe you get angry at the drop of a hat when you think you are right.
#gmstrong
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You know Jimmy's job description? Hate to break it to you, but a CEO of a 25B+ company ... Of course, he is the head honcho, and even if he didn't know about it his company should still receive some sort of hefty fine if the allegations are true. "The buck stops" at him, and that is part of being a CEO
Unless, of course, you're the CEO of a multi-trillion dollar nation.
Then you blame all your crimes, misdemeanors, and screw-ups on the Republicans in the House of Representatives, confidant that the lame-stream news media will back you all the way.
Hmmm, maybe Haslam should just give free cell phones to potential jurors ...
I'm only going to bring this up because of sheer irony. Of all the "blaming Republicans for things they didn't do" examples you could have chosen from, your chose a program that was created by Ronald Reagan and expanded to include cell phones by George W. Bush.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
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FYI, I own my own company also,, I was also a VP of a 50 million dollar division of a staffing company with 24 office under my control and 80 staff employees..
Trust me, I'm damn good, I caught a lot of people trying to steal.. But I always wondered if I got them all.. And I may never know.
Your real name Jay L.? You sound like an old friend of mine that ran a staffing company up there. Sammy ran Cleveland PM back about 20 yrs ago?
Nope,, that's not me,,, LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Be a real shame if you got accused of something and punished without ever getting your due process.
They haven't even proven that anything was intentionally done wrong yet. You haven't heard that taped conversation, so you don't know it actually contains anything of merit, just what some reporter says, and if last week didn't teach you anything, there's about a dozen innocent people in Boston what would have been hanged as the bomber thanks to the media.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Be a real shame if you got accused of something and punished without ever getting your due process.
They haven't even proven that anything was intentionally done wrong yet. You haven't heard that taped conversation, so you don't know it actually contains anything of merit, just what some reporter says, and if last week didn't teach you anything, there's about a dozen innocent people in Boston what would have been hanged as the bomber thanks to the media.
Not to mention the guy that supposedly sent those letters to Obama with Ricin in it. Man, he was questioned for days. In fact, it was 48 hours before they even told him what he was accused of doing. in the end he didn't do it.
So,, jumping to conclusions is rather idiotic in my view.
Having said that, I recognize there is at least a even chance that he was aware. But believing it and proving it,, two different things..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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And believe me, If I'm owed 100k, and someone sends me a check for 50k, I'm going to ask questions and if I don't get a satisfactory answer, I'd have no problem going to the top.
Did that happen? I honestly don't know.
That brings up a couple of suspicious things for me.
#1 The airplane. How does a Flying J employee get authorization to buy $1 million broken airplane? The trucking company owner called and complained, probably to someone very high up. The problem had to be acknowledged and someone OK'd spending $1 million on this. That is not normal, and it takes a big honcho to approve $1 million broken airplane. Once noticed and acknowledged, they continued "business as usual" rather than an immediate internal investigation.
#2 How quickly Jimmy is offering settlements. If this was all complex and hidden, how is he getting accurate details in a week and why is he suddenly so sure of reasonable amounts? If this was a complex and tricky scheme from underneath, you'd think it would take serious time for him to research and evaluate what was really owed.
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I do not believe Browns fans are jumping to conclusions in this case against Pilot/Haslam. The fans are simply reacting to the stories and media reports which are based on the information that surfaces or develops, as it happens.
Those who have kept up with the reporting must admit...at this time, it does not look good for Jimmy Haslam.
From what I've read, there are tape recordings of the vice-president of sales at Pilot, who is heard on a tape recording, claiming Jimmy Haslam knew of specific incidents to defraud Pilot's customers...
...but, without the tapes, it's hard to know the context or how damning the evidence might be.
The Feds have tapes that go back to mid 2011 and they had 3 individuals who were informing on the activity going on within Pilot.
The Feds are not going to let the public know how much evidence they have or what the most damning evidence is...unless it is leaked.
But with 3 informants working for the Feds beginning in June of 2011 to April 15, 2013...that could be an overwhelming amount of evidence.
One article I read made the point that Jimmy Haslam "is the target" of this investigation and that the Feds could make a deal with some implicated if they agree to testify against Jimmy.
This will be a distraction for the franchise, and the fans will be discussing the news surrounding this case until the matter is resolved. Face it, we don't know who will own this team a year from now...or if a new owner surfaces, will that individual retain the management and coaching staff Haslam hired?
I wish it was done and over with NOW...but, realistically, I look for this to drag out and be in the news for at least a year.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Let me clear my view up for those that think I'm hanging Haslam before due process; Jimmy is going to do whatever it takes to avoid prosecution, guilty or not. I can appreciate that because it's just human nature. Charges may never get filed against him or he beats it in court. That's why you pay hefty attorney fees.
Now, I've been blasting this ridiculous notion that Jimmy didn't know. Not one of you submitting that excuse offers a credible explanation to support it. I can agree that a CEO can't know EVERYTHING when it comes to isolated incidents. However, this is not isolated. It's been going on for approximately 7 yrs involving several employees and discussed during sales meetings. Think about that for a moment.
Let's talk about human nature and picture yourself in this situation. As humans, we are competitive. We want an opportunity to advance. Some of us have morals and ethics (obviously, not all or us). You're working for a great organization and have aspirations of one day being in top management. (this apply to anybody on this board?) You're sitting in a sales meeting when your manager is discussing this fraud scheme. You, a person of integrity, will not jeopardize your job or personal life by committing a crime and possible jail time. (ex; Bank of America mortgage fraud and forging documents.)
Here's your options; 1) you keep quiet and follow your leader straight to Hotel Penn. 2) You approach your manager and ask him if Mr. Haslam approves of this 3) You go straight to the CEO and inform him of this hoping he appreciates your integrity and willingness to protect the companies interest. He rewards you with a promotion (yay) 4) you resign because you want no part of this. Anybody with the ' 'he didn't know excuse' picture yourself in this position?
Do you really believe that not 1 employee out of THOUSANDS, questioned this? Not 1 employee executed option 2 or 3 mentioned above? Here's a reality check for you; most crimes would go unsolved without the cooperation of somebody close to the situation. And, we know of at least 1 cooperating employee working with the Feds. Is there a remote possibility he tried option 2 or 3 I mentioned?
Let's address the ' it's a $25b a yr company that's too big for the CEO to know everything' issue. Do you know what the difference is between a company that generates a 100k in revenue a year and a business that generates billions? They both started out with an idea and concept. It doesn't matter what management style you use, (Theory X, Theory Y...) system viewpoint, (Quantitative, Behavioral,...) whatever works for you and the industry you're in. The 100k a yr company accomplished this one time. The billion $ a yr company REPLICATED it 1000 times. That's it! Jimmy is using the same exact systems and beliefs that he had back with his father's original store and replicated it.
Now, there is a control system that is very effective in checks and balances. It's called an external audit. I do this once a yr EVERY yr to ensure everything on paper is legit.....interesting!
The 'he didn't know' excuse is only valid if he can show documents that have been doctored before they arrived on his desk. If he Haslam can't produce this.....HE KNEW!
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#2 How quickly Jimmy is offering settlements. If this was all complex and hidden, how is he getting accurate details in a week and why is he suddenly so sure of reasonable amounts? If this was a complex and tricky scheme from underneath, you'd think it would take serious time for him to research and evaluate what was really owed.
According to what we were told, I believe he said it would take "months" to figure out exactly what was owed. Yet in less than two weeks he's offering to make things right?
Something about that I do find very strange. For it to be such a short process rather than the lengthy one he described, almost sounds as if the numbers weren't hard to come up with.
At this point, I think Haslam should just lay low and avoid any act that could remotely seem questionable.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I can agree with just about everything you said; nicely put in a much more level headed manner. It would be interesting what their external auditing procedures were; since they are private we will likely never know. If this large of a company was not doing yearly external audits that would be absolutely crazy.
As for your options, here is how I would approach it:
If this was suggested by my manager I would avoid him/her as far as asking if it was approved as their integrity is in serious question at this point. I may go to my managers boss first and discuss the situation with them, though the more I think about it in a situation where someone is stealing from customers I would likely go directly to the top. If the CEO then blew it off or said it was OK I would likely start looking for another job.
#gmstrong
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Much respect Columbus....
On a side note; you're absolutely correct pointing out one of my weaknesses. I have a short fuse....been working on that for years....lol
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Not one of you submitting that excuse offers a credible explanation to support it. I can agree that a CEO can't know EVERYTHING when it comes to isolated incidents.
We aren't excusing him, just pointing out that it is possible he was unaware. He may have known full well, but we aren't making that judgment with the very little information we have, especially since that information comes from out wonderful media who is known to embellish and edit details to fit the story to their liking.
On the other hand, you can't offer credible explanation to support your verdict of guilt other than those same half-baked media reports.
All I'm saying is I prefer to let it play out, and in the meantime I offer the opposing side of the coin for people to consider. It is not a definitation of my opinion or even my thought on the matter, I just prefer people don't see everything so one sided, without considering alternatives. Then when he is carted off in chains, you can do your little "I told you so" dance of joy.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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On the other hand, you can't offer credible explanation to support your verdict of guilt other than those same half-baked media reports......Then when he is carted off in chains, you can do your little "I told you so" dance of joy.
I believe I did in my post above.... I even offered an explanation of how he couldn't know....debate it if you choose.
Never will you read an 'I told you so' post from me. Have you read the affidavit submitted by the FBI? I have. That's the source of my opinion along with life's experiences. Not the media or any attorney.
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...It would be interesting what their external auditing procedures were; since they are private we will likely never know. If this large of a company was not doing yearly external audits that would be absolutely crazy.
Paying for an external audit...when/if such a thing were not required of them...would be a colossal waste of money...and would not necessarily "catch" the "mistake".
I would agree with serious questions about their internal audit procedures though...if they even exist. (Which would be another issue altogether.)
(Note: Not being a smart donkey here...just saying that external/independent audits are very, very costly and would be like voluntarily throwing money out the window if not required by the SEC, owners, or banks.)
EDIT: Added 'owners' to SEC and banks.
Last edited by WSU Willie; 04/26/13 12:10 PM.
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Those who have kept up with the reporting must admit...at this time, it does not look good for Jimmy Haslam.
No, we don't have to admit that at all
I don't have all the facts.. Neither do you. So how in the hell can anyone say, with any degree of certainty that this doesn't look good for Haslam?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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...It would be interesting what their external auditing procedures were; since they are private we will likely never know. If this large of a company was not doing yearly external audits that would be absolutely crazy.
Paying for an external audit...when/if such a thing were not required of them...would be a colossal waste of money...and would not necessarily "catch" the "mistake".
I would agree with serious questions about their internal audit procedures though...if they even exist. (Which would be another issue altogether.)
(Note: Not being a smart donkey here...just saying that external/independent audits are very, very costly and would be like voluntarily throwing money out the window if not required by the SEC, owners, or banks.)
EDIT: Added 'owners' to SEC and banks.
Understood that it is expensive - I've never worked for that large of a private company so I'm not aware of how they really operate as far as checks and balances. Of course all of the public companies I work with have all sorts of audits throughout the year.
If they did do internal audits I too would question their procedures if this wasn't caught. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
#gmstrong
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Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... FBI/IRS raid on Jimmy Haslam's
company..(continued)
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