|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Haden and Ward were good picks. The rest not so much.
Django you know the concept of positional value quite well and what we have gotten from Hardesty as a 2nd round back or Lava as a 3rd round guard is pretty poor. Colt well the % chance of getting a good starting QB outside of round 1 is pretty low so you can kind of excuse that one, and at least we got a late round pick back from him. That is almost certainly more than we could get for anyone else from that draft (outside of Haden and Ward of course.)
That was a pretty loaded draft class as well. Just a small sampling from rounds 2 on: Gronk, Daryl Washington, Carlos Dunlap, Brandon Spikes, Jared Veldheer, Emmanuel Sanders, Navorro Bowman, Jimmy Graham, Aaron Hernandez, Geno Atkins, Kam Chancellor, Antonio Brown, and even some good UDFAs (David Nelson, Sam Shields, Chris Ivory, Jake Ballard, Victor Cruz)
Haden and Ward kept that draft from being an unmitigated disaster.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
I factored in everything I could think of, positional and slot value and think the Hardesty pick was AVG and Lauvao slightly above AVG Just for fun, let's look at the Eagles (and Banner's?) 2010 draft, they picked 13 players: 13) DE Graham...12 starts, 8.5 sacks in 3 seasons  37) FS N.Allen...38 starts, good start but not the same after injury  86) DE Teo-Nesheim...was cut after rookie season, started for the Bucs after Clayborn injury with 4 sacks in 2012, backup 105) CB Lindley...hasn't played the past 2 seasons, constantly released/roster bubble 121) LB Clayton...did nothing for 2 seasons, now with the Raiders 122) QB Kafka...16 career PAs, 2 INTs, McCoy looks like gold compared to him. He's now no3 with the Pats 125) TE Harbor...in 3 years AVGed 15 catches and 9yds/catch. He was such a good backup that the Eagles signed Casey in FA and drafted Ertz in round 2 134) DE Sapp...not even a tackle yet, on the Jets roster now 159 WR R.Cooper...46 catches, 679yds and 5 TDs in 3 seasons, guess he's a decent no5 WR  200) RB C.Scott...out of the league 220) LB Chaney...backup, started in year two when they got torched and back to backup. Now on roster bubble as scheme misfit  243) DT Owens....who? 244) SS K.Coleman...below AVG starting SS, but at this point and consideruing the players picked before he might be the best player out of this class, so 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
I thought this was about the 2010 Browns draft.. not the Eagles. But yeah, you are right, that Eagles draft was extremely awful by any measure. None of us really know who had what power and when in Philly, but at the very least they had a lot of good drafts and were competitive for a long time. That's for another thread though. Hardesty AVG for 2nd round pick lol 23 games in 3 years, 3.5 ypc and I seem to remember him trying to break the record for most dropped passes in a game. That is worse than replacement level production. The regime that drafted him liked him so much they traded up to #3 to grab T Rich last year. I give the Hardesty pick a D- and the only reason for not giving it an F is that he showed signs of life last year. I'm a fan of profootballfocus. I know some people around here know how good all 2,000 or so NFL players played in any given season so those people can ignore this, but here is what they said about the 2012 Browns offensive line: Quote:
5. Cleveland Browns (14)
PB – 3rd, RB – 11th, PEN – 25th
Stud: In the upcoming weeks or so we’re going to do a piece on how often (per second) Joe Thomas (+25.6) gives up pressure compared to the rest of the league. It’s stunning how shutdown he is. Now, if only his run blocking matched up to his work in the pass game.
Dud: You can get by with players like Shawn Lauvao (-7.3) when the rest of your line is so good.
Summary: It’s not the done thing to give praise to Cleveland. That said, their line is extremely talented and when they were forced to introduce John Greco into the lineup they got even better. The stars are Thomas and Alex Mack, but the play of rookie Mitchell Schwartz bodes well for this line for a long time to come.
Here is a post someone around here made about guards recently:
Quote:
People talk about Warmack the same way they did about DeCastro last draft. Warmack's problem is that he's a G-only, he won't EVER play C or OT and I have my doubts he's athletic enough to play LG in the NFL....DeCastro has the same problem, they're both RGs only imho, and those are dime a dozen. Half the Gs in the NFL are former College OTs...have you ever thought about why?
Cooper has much more value for a team needeing an interior OL and Warford later represents much better value than Warmack.
All that said, we have 4 young Gs...OL, especially interior OL is a position where you need a little time to get better. Who the hell knew Vasquez before this season? He was a Lauvao-like dime a dozen G his first 2-3 years, no kidding. Do you know why Greco looked the best of our Gs? It's not because he has the most talent, or he wouldn't have been cut by the Rams of all teams...it's because he was the most experienced. Interior OL get better with time, this isn't rocket science...Greco, Pinkston and Lauvao have shown that they belong in that league, now leave them alone and let them get better together...
Do you remember who made that? I can find some other ones I'm sure 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
So?
I said Lauvao "is a bottom 3rd starting OG in this league" and PFF agrees and even says you can get by with players like this at RG. Where's the beef? We see the same player.
What PFF doesn't grade is how important for Mack and Schwartz was to have the same guy that they know playing at RG, his durability and upside left. Also, I'm sure Greco, Vasquez and Levitre were not as good in their first 3 seasons as they were in 2012...this is Lauvao's make or break season, but I'm confident that he'll elevate his game to AVG OG level this season.
As for Hardesty: you can't compare him to 2nd rounders picked before him, that's why I included the players picked right after him and the whole draft as reference. Fact is, no better RB was picked in that draft AFTER him. We can't trade up to get the no1 guy at every position. Hardesty AVGed 4.2 ypc in his first healthy season, so grading him anywhere from an AVG pick to a fail is probably dependend on what you think of his upside left. I think he can be a good complimentary RB that can carry the load if called upon to spot start. At 59, while not great or good value, that'd be an AVG value pick considering how many flat out busts are visible after pick 50
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Yeah I don't think we are that far off on Lauvao. Drafting a bottom 3rd starting OG in the third isn't great, but it isn't a disaster either. I guess I'd call it a C.
Hardesty we'll just have to agree to disagree. The league is full of mid-round/late-round/UDFA backs who come in and contribute immediately. Also I don't really see why we need to only focus on the players drafted immediately after him. You know as well as anybody that players rise and fall all the time. We laud Heckert for 'reaching' on players like Ward and Gordon (nobody else used a 2nd rounder on him) when those players hit so drafting a poor player shouldn't be excused just because of who was drafted immediately behind him, especially when trading up to get the player in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 68
Rookie
|
|
Rookie
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 68 |
Quote:
Haden and Ward were good picks. The rest not so much.
Django you know the concept of positional value quite well and what we have gotten from Hardesty as a 2nd round back or Lava as a 3rd round guard is pretty poor. Colt well the % chance of getting a good starting QB outside of round 1 is pretty low so you can kind of excuse that one, and at least we got a late round pick back from him. That is almost certainly more than we could get for anyone else from that draft (outside of Haden and Ward of course.)
That was a pretty loaded draft class as well. Just a small sampling from rounds 2 on: Gronk, Daryl Washington, Carlos Dunlap, Brandon Spikes, Jared Veldheer, Emmanuel Sanders, Navorro Bowman, Jimmy Graham, Aaron Hernandez, Geno Atkins, Kam Chancellor, Antonio Brown, and even some good UDFAs (David Nelson, Sam Shields, Chris Ivory, Jake Ballard, Victor Cruz)
Haden and Ward kept that draft from being an unmitigated disaster.
What exactly has Ward done to be considered a good 2nd round pick? He has often been injured for large portions of his career thus far and has not exactly lived up to 2nd round status or expectations.
Hardesty and Ward were both 2nd round picks and both have under achieved for 2nd rounders, but Hardesty did show his value last year as a pretty solid backup RB. I would not be surprised to see Hardesty outlast Ward in the NFL.
.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Quote:
[Ward] has often been injured for large portions of his career thus far and has not exactly lived up to 2nd round status or expectations.
Ward missed half the season in 2011. He missed two games last year. That is not "injured for large portions of his career."
Ward, by many standards, is among the best players at his position in the league.
Your post shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544 |
Quote:
Quote:
[Ward] has often been injured for large portions of his career thus far and has not exactly lived up to 2nd round status or expectations.
Ward missed half the season in 2011. He missed two games last year. That is not "injured for large portions of his career."
Ward, by many standards, is among the best players at his position in the league.
Your post shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.
10 out of 36 is not a large portion? that's 1 in 3? but that doesn't bother me as much as the guy cannot make a open field tackle to save his life. jmo.
hope with the new defence attack will help him with that?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
The eight games he missed in 2011 were due to one injury. It's not like he kept getting injured over and over again with different things. He had one injury and had to go on the injured reserve.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544 |
Quote:
The eight games he missed in 2011 were due to one injury. It's not like he kept getting injured over and over again with different things. He had one injury and had to go on the injured reserve.
you said "That is not "injured for large portions of his career." and I think almost a 3rd of games is large portions of his career. just a fact. and I also said the attack defence might be better for him because
# 1 he doesn't have to make open field tackle that way and
#2 he doesn't have to cover so much?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 68
Rookie
|
|
Rookie
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 68 |
Quote:
Quote:
[Ward] has often been injured for large portions of his career thus far and has not exactly lived up to 2nd round status or expectations.
Ward missed half the season in 2011. He missed two games last year. That is not "injured for large portions of his career."
Ward, by many standards, is among the best players at his position in the league.
Your post shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.
by many standards? I am not saying Ward is a bad player, but the topic is about the 2010 draft. Ward is not exactly 2nd round level player, he is a liability in coverage and is just a poor tackler. He makes big hits at times but then he will turn around on the very next play and totally whiff on a tackle.
Ward was best suited when he was coming on a safety blitz, but in open field in coverage or trying to make an open field tackle, he was a liability.
.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
the "he doesn't make open field tackles" is the biggest myth to the Ward-bashers.
we haven't had that many good things to cheer, let's enjoy the few we have
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544 |
Quote:
the "he doesn't make open field tackles" is the biggest myth to the Ward-bashers.
we haven't had that many good things to cheer, let's enjoy the few we have
I watch the games all year long. go over and over them. its what I see. right or wrong its what I saw.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210 |
Quote:
you said "That is not "injured for large portions of his career." and I think almost a 3rd of games is large portions of his career. just a fact
Not sure where your 10 of 36 games came from. Ward has played in 38 of 48 games. Thats nearly 1 in 5 missed
Link
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
2010 Dawgtalkers NCAA Bracket Challenge Champ!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,447
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,447 |
Quote:
Quote:
the "he doesn't make open field tackles" is the biggest myth to the Ward-bashers.
we haven't had that many good things to cheer, let's enjoy the few we have
I watch the games all year long. go over and over them. its what I see. right or wrong its what I saw.
You are entitled to your opinion as is anyone but I do urge you to go back and watch tape of this year. Ward made huge strides as a coverage man this year and we are not the only ones who noticed. The media has be applauding his butt all offseason. It almost sounds like you kind of wrote him off after his falling of the later part of his rookie year. Just saying.
He will never be a FS asked to cover TE's in man or fight in a jump battle but if you ask him to hold a deep 1/3 he is very capable and no one wants to open throw a WR in that deep 1/3 when TJ is lined up for a hit. I will agree he still has a tendency to over commit to some tackles but he is still very solid as a whole. His missed tackles are for the world to see when a run busts up the sideline. If you knew how many tackles LB's miss that we don't see on tv you'd understand. Open fielders are not easy. He is at least a top 10 SS right now and IMO possibly top 5 or better in Hortons system,
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,608 Likes: 89
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,608 Likes: 89 |
Quote:
Quote:
you said "That is not "injured for large portions of his career." and I think almost a 3rd of games is large portions of his career. just a fact
Not sure where your 10 of 36 games came from. Ward has played in 38 of 48 games. Thats nearly 1 in 5 missed
Link
There is always someone ready to mess up an argument by bringing in facts ...
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,593 Likes: 238
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,593 Likes: 238 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
you said "That is not "injured for large portions of his career." and I think almost a 3rd of games is large portions of his career. just a fact
Not sure where your 10 of 36 games came from. Ward has played in 38 of 48 games. Thats nearly 1 in 5 missed
Link
There is always someone ready to mess up an argument by bringing in facts ...
c'mon man.. you know that stats and facts are for losers
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,307 Likes: 2
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,307 Likes: 2 |
If you missed 20% of your workdays I'm sure your boss would not be happy.
You have to add the fact that after an injury a player doesn't perform at the same level, so lots of facts to consider not just the missed games.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136 |
Actually rastanplan I thought that was one of the more positive posts I've seen from you (2010 grades) was surprised you were getting flak for being negative.
You should have not gotten that descriptive where the negative came out. Ward bottom 16 SS??? That was your undoing I think 
The rest of ya...leave off my man Lava. You act like he's a bandaid filler. He'll be starting his 3rd straight year on an OL that is considered the best UNIT of this team. If you really broke down the game film on him...n you got to see the same play 3-4 times to get the real picture...as in where did this guy come from, etc. There is a reason why the Expert analyst (ex-nfl player) of a new crew would state at the beginning of the game..."The kid I really like is Lavauo I watched the film and was impressed this guy is nasty" Of course you all missed that I guess. 2 times I had to review each play cause I couldn't believe the negative criticism Lava was getting on the What I saw game threads....Both times I came away with almost perfection n he probably graded higher than any other of our OLmen. So when I hear fellow fans dissing him - I just scoff at ya all. Sorry to bunch the Lava none believers together but the negatives of the past were so incredulous that I just don't believe any. Just being honest.
For a 3rd round pick? FOR THE BROWNS...by far our worst round in the draft history of our Browns. McCutcheon, Fowler n that was it - ALL THOSE YEARS...it was so bad I would be so happy when we would trade up with the 3rd round n a 4th or 5th to get back in the 2nd round...lol I mean we sucked with our 1st n 2nd but 3rd by far our worst.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
If you missed 20% of your workdays I'm sure your boss would not be happy.
You have to add the fact that after an injury a player doesn't perform at the same level, so lots of facts to consider not just the missed games.
actually, a big reason that he is getting his praise is that he actually kept getting better last year despite this injuries.
as for the % of games missed, they still mostly stem from his 2nd year. he has had 1 completely healthy year, one mostly healthy year, and one year with a major injury. he had injury red flags coming out of college and safety is an injury-prone position, so we'll see what happens in the future (see my 'looking back' post above)
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
10 out of 36 is not a large portion? that's 1 in 3? but that doesn't bother me as much as the guy cannot make a open field tackle to save his life. jmo.
Ward has been in the NFL for 3 years.. 3x16=48... he has missed 10 games due to injury... 10/48*100= 20.8%... that's 1 in 5 games missed.... If you want to average it out that means he plays in about 13 games a season.. wonder where that compares across the league...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
I factored in everything I could think of, positional and slot value and think the Hardesty pick was AVG and Lauvao slightly above AVG
Just for fun, let's look at the Eagles (and Banner's?) 2010 draft, they picked 13 players:
13) DE Graham...12 starts, 8.5 sacks in 3 seasons
FWIW, Pro Football Focus ranked Brandon Graham the 76th-best player in the NFL last year.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/04/30/pffs-top-101-of-2012-80-to-71/
76. Brandon Graham, DE, Philadelphia Eagles (Unranked)
Season 2012 was something of a glimpse at what Graham is capable of, as he got on the field for only 435 snaps. That, and that alone, was why he didn’t finish any higher because he was outstanding when he was on the field. Finishing as the most productive pass rusher in the league, Graham was near unstoppable when he got on the field.
Best Performance: Week 15 versus Cincinnati, +6.2
Key Stat: Turned his 205 pass rushes into 45 combined sacks, hits and hurries. That gave him the best Pass Rushing Productivity rating of any defensive player.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544 |
Quote:
Quote:
you said "That is not "injured for large portions of his career." and I think almost a 3rd of games is large portions of his career. just a fact
Not sure where your 10 of 36 games came from. Ward has played in 38 of 48 games. Thats nearly 1 in 5 missed
Link
your right. I went brain dead. went back to the 60s lol
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Cool, but a guy that can't hit the field is a flop no matter what, fair or not. Heck, people trash Ward for missing 20% of his starts. Graham hasn't even played half his teams' snaps when healthy...why's that? Is he one dimensional? A specialist? Anyway I look at this I can't give him a good grade as a top 15 pick after 3 years...does Hardesty get a free pass for his knee surgery? In fact, both careers are very similar...done nothing for two years, then had a good 3rd season as a part timer/backup. For a 59th overall pick that nets a C in my book, for a 13th overall, who was the headliner of his teams' draft that's closer to a D...that said, both have upside left for the upcoming season to improve their grades and the saving grace for Graham could be that he signed a 5year deal, not 4
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Fair enough, good points.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 68
Rookie
|
|
Rookie
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 68 |
Quote:
Quote:
10 out of 36 is not a large portion? that's 1 in 3? but that doesn't bother me as much as the guy cannot make a open field tackle to save his life. jmo.
Ward has been in the NFL for 3 years.. 3x16=48... he has missed 10 games due to injury... 10/48*100= 20.8%... that's 1 in 5 games missed.... If you want to average it out that means he plays in about 13 games a season.. wonder where that compares across the league...
This is a good point, 1 in 5 games is not all that bad the more I think about it. Ward as well as every player will have a new start with a new regime, I hope they find away to utilize him better. I thought he was going to be a stud after his rookie year, then he seemed to disappear.
Lets hope he excels in this defensive system and proves to be a threat in the secondary.
.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
Quote:
the "he doesn't make open field tackles" is the biggest myth to the Ward-bashers.
we haven't had that many good things to cheer, let's enjoy the few we have
I watch the games all year long. go over and over them. its what I see. right or wrong its what I saw.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/04/29/pffs-top-101-of-2012-101-to-91/
97. T.J. Ward, S, Cleveland Browns (Unranked)
Playing in Cleveland doesn’t always lend itself to having your performances rewarded with nationwide praise. So while you don’t often hear the name of Ward mentioned among the better safeties in the league, don’t think that’s a reflection on what he did in 2012. A real force in the box, Ward is more than just adequate in coverage, allowing just 12 receptions into his coverage all year.
Best Performance: Week 12 versus Pittsburgh, +3.7
Key Stat: Missed just one tackle for every 17.5 he attempted in 2012. That was the second best number of all safeties.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,513 Likes: 808
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,513 Likes: 808 |
Thanks for that. Some people think you are supposed to make every tackle and never give up a TD pass to be considered good.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
+1 on `Peen's thoughts as well.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,952 Likes: 352
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,952 Likes: 352 |
Quote:
Thanks for that. Some people think you are supposed to make every tackle and never give up a TD pass to be considered good.
Come on ... if you miss one tackle, or give up a TD, you have to suck.
Just as an aside here ..... but people beat on Skrine like crazy, but he's pretty good at covering the slot. He's just not an outside cover guy.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,652 Likes: 613
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,652 Likes: 613 |
I'll agree with that. I actually thought he was superb in his coverage against Mike Wallace. The prototypical #1 receivers are where he really struggled.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,946 Likes: 763
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,946 Likes: 763 |
We've had a ton of players like him through here over the years. They look great in limited duty, but when they get a chance to start they look terrible.
What people often fail to realize is that in the limited duty, they are either just a slot guy, or they are playing zone and often when they becomes a "starter" they now have to do lots of man coverage, which is where they get beat. They're still just as good as ever in those other roles, coaches just have to put them in the roles in which they can succeed. We saw a lot of this type of production from "lesser" corners under both Butch and Crennel.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
I've really missed the production we saw from Henry and Bodden. Seems like it has been years since we had someone successfully ball-hawk in our defenses.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
From MrUniverse: Quote:
Ward is not exactly 2nd round level player, he is a liability in coverage and is just a poor tackler. He makes big hits at times but then he will turn around on the very next play and totally whiff on a tackle.
Quote:
What exactly has Ward done to be considered a good 2nd round pick? He has often been injured for large portions of his career thus far and has not exactly lived up to 2nd round status or expectations.
From pblack18707:
Quote:
Quote:
the "he doesn't make open field tackles" is the biggest myth to the Ward-bashers.
we haven't had that many good things to cheer, let's enjoy the few we have
I watch the games all year long. go over and over them. its what I see. right or wrong its what I saw.
From clevesteve:
Quote:
97. T.J. Ward, S, Cleveland Browns (Unranked)
Playing in Cleveland doesn’t always lend itself to having your performances rewarded with nationwide praise. So while you don’t often hear the name of Ward mentioned among the better safeties in the league, don’t think that’s a reflection on what he did in 2012. A real force in the box, Ward is more than just adequate in coverage, allowing just 12 receptions into his coverage all year.
Best Performance: Week 12 versus Pittsburgh, +3.7
Key Stat: Missed just one tackle for every 17.5 he attempted in 2012. That was the second best number of all safeties.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
Remember the game Haden had against Boldin? He's clearly not a good corner
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,652 Likes: 613
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,652 Likes: 613 |
Quote:
We've had a ton of players like him through here over the years. They look great in limited duty, but when they get a chance to start they look terrible.
What people often fail to realize is that in the limited duty, they are either just a slot guy, or they are playing zone and often when they becomes a "starter" they now have to do lots of man coverage, which is where they get beat. They're still just as good as ever in those other roles, coaches just have to put them in the roles in which they can succeed. We saw a lot of this type of production from "lesser" corners under both Butch and Crennel.
That's true. Butch had Henry and McCutcheon. Romeo had Bodden; BMac played pretty well at times.
I feel like Shurmur struggled to conform to his players' strengths, but Jauron seemed to know what he was doing. The secondary the past couple years though has been horrific. Probably a combination of ignoring it and square pegs being put in round holes.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,946 Likes: 763
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,946 Likes: 763 |
Quote:
The secondary the past couple years though has been horrific. Probably a combination of ignoring it and square pegs being put in round holes.
In my opinion, a lot of it is that we played a lot more man coverage and not so much zone. If we're in man coverage and our 2nd best CB is a 34 year old Sheldon Brown that has lost a step, we're going to get beat. Ditto for when Skrine was in there when Haden was out.
If there is one big positive to this new defense, if we really will be like Pittsburgh, is that it is zone blitzing. So, we'll be bringing big pressure every play but with zone behind it, and in zone coverage you don't need every CB to be a super star... you just need a few Leigh Bodden's. Having a Joe Haden just makes it that much better.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136 |
Skrine is still developing - well theoretically all players should continue their development. But in Skrine he came in very RAW so that he is probably a year behind in his development. How can he get praised for his slot coverage then in the same breath state he is terrible in outside coverage. All that tells me is in his development he is comfortable now with his slot duties - when pressed to the outside last year due to injuries he was uncomfortable also thinking about his responsibilities & it showed.
But nobody is giving him the reality of him continuing his development there is no guarantee of his prowess covering on the outside. But if he got good in the slot over time why will he NOT GET GOOD on the outside over time as well.
Usually when a CB is defined as a slot CB it usually is a reflection of his lack of size (180-190) including height and/&/n (don't want to insult anyone lol ) the general perception of his Run defense.
I think a lot of this kid McFadden n think he will be very successful as a Cover CB for us. But Skrine is not dead to that production if the need to call on him again. His addition for depth is going to be Better than last year - I think one can naturally Assume that!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,652 Likes: 613
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,652 Likes: 613 |
If you watch him cover some of the slot receivers who are smaller and more speedy, he did a good job last year.
However, when you see him going up against guys on the outside (when he tried to bump Calvin Johnson in last year's preseason is a prime example), he really struggles.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Evaluating the 2010 Browns Draft
|
|
