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Agree with nearly everything Topdawg said 100%. . . . Also Vers summed up the changes and the challenges we face.
My biggest hope is that we play like a real football team that is well coached - if we don't have the talent (and there are glaring spots on the roster where we need more talent) then I think we will be in nearly every single game, regardless of the final outcome. I'll take that. I am hopeful of Weeden doing well under Norv.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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I agree Vers. The best QB should start and this FO didn't pick Weeden. They owe him nothing and aren't tied to him in any way.
The past regime may have had something to prove by giving Weeden an edge, but this FO has nothing to consider but W's and the future. If they don't see Weeden being the answer early on, I think they'll move on.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Just clicking.
It's just not a Browns offseason without a QB controversy.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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And there always will be until we find a proven franchise QB. It's simply the nature of the beast.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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To answer the original question.
You are a Browns fan. You should have pretty low expectations. Why should you lower them?
There will be no playoffs. Can’t play with who we have out there and compounding it with garbage playcalling and worse execution. We don’t have good skill players on offense period. Browns 20 - Bears 17.
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Quote:
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He should be well ahead at the start. That doesn't mean that I don't think that Weeden can catch up to a large degree fairly quickly, especially given that Turner's offense is a fairly simple system, purposely kept simple so that all offensive players can play instead of over-thinking every play.
Little early to start the "Excuse Game" isn't it?
How the hell is that an "excuse"?
I said that Campbell should be ahead, as he has played in this offense twice before ..... but that Weeden should be able to catch up quickly, as the offense is a fairly simple system. (and actually, probably one of the easiest for the skill position players and QBs to learn)
Good lord man, you can have insightful comments on occasion ..... but then spew crap like this. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Pit's right, bro! The reason we have all these QB controversies is because we haven't had a good QB here since we came back.
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You also make insightful posts on occasion. Your words. However, when it comes to this qb thing, you seem very biased. Your grading of Colt and Weeden was way out of whack. This BS about Campbell is nonsense. It's almost like you have a vested interest in Weeden.
Let me guess again [you did not answer last time]: Did you guys have a QB war last year? Were you firmly in the Weeden camp and argued w/the Colt camp on a regular basis? I wasn't around, so I don't know. However, there aren't many options that would explain your position on the QB situation other than that.
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Quote:
Did you guys have a QB war last year? Were you firmly in the Weeden camp and argued w/the Colt camp on a regular basis?
Let me answer that for you: Yes and yes.
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Thought so. It was the only logical answer. Perhaps it would be wiser to root for the QB who gives the Browns the best chance to win rather than the guy you backed? 
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1st String
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Hey? We have a new owner, a new coach, a new GM an entirely new coaching staff, new players, new possible starting QB....All is good in Cleveland.
As long as the fans keep yelling for change and get it, ALL IS GOOD IN CLEVELAND!
Who cares if it is change for the best? It's change! We stink. We change! We stink again. We change!
1 win or 16 wins we just want change!
Like an island made of candy or sand full of sugar, or water made of soda, or a shower made of hot fudge, or animals made of candy...it's not complicated. Changing is better!
Never have hope. You won’t be disappointed.
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What BS about Campbell? He is an average to below average starting QB in the NFL. I don't think that anyone would dispute that. (except maybe Toad)  He has never been a difference maker. He has never been the driving force behind a team winning games. He is, however, familiar with the Norv Turner offense, because he has played in a very similar offense twice before under Al Saunders. He is ahead of Weeden at this point, because he knows the system. He played in it his 1st 2 or 3 seasons, and again in 2011. I'm not sure what you are disputing here, because there is nothing to dispute. Weeden should, however, gain on Campbell pretty quickly, because Turner's offense is a fairly simple offense for the QB, and it also helps eliminate mistakes by other skill position players because it is equally simple for them. As long as a receiver can remember and associate 1-9 with pass routes, and can remember which of the "digits" in the play call corresponds to his position on the field, he's good to go. Weeden shouldn't have any trouble picking up the basics of the offense fairly quickly. If he does, then he certainly isn't the right guy, because it is an easy offense, relatively speaking, to learn. Again, where is your dispute with this? I was in favor of Weeden over Colt, because I was of the opinion that Colt did nothing really well, and wasn't an NFL starting caliber QB. The front office isn't either, as they dumped him as quickly as they could. Speaking of Colt, I do recall that you were strongly in favor of him at one point. Does that really matter today? He is the past, and is long gone, never to return. I favor Weeden at this point, mainly because I do think that he has the ability (especially the physical ability) to be a quality starter. He still has to prove it on the field though. If we start Campbell, then we are absolutely, 100% locked into drafting another QB next year. I do not see him as a long term answer here. I don't know if Weeden can be that answer or not. It's not that difficult. I would prefer to know for sure on Weeden, even if it costs us a game or 2. (which would put us in better position if we have to draft a QB anyway) Again, I don't know what you find in any of this to dispute ..... unless you see Campbell as a long term solution? If that's the case, then fine. Just say so. I don't. I am out on Weeden right now, but I do think that Turner will tailor the offense to what he does well if he is the starter. Whether that is enough to make him into a plus level starter is the question, and the question that I feel we must answer this coming year. If you disagree, then say so, and explain why instead of just making snide comments.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Pit's right, bro! The reason we have all these QB controversies is because we haven't had a good QB here since we came back.
Oh, I know he's right. I agree with him. My retort there was a humorous/friendly "Captain Obvious" jab, although it may not have come through.
In my original post, I was simply lamenting the fact it's been this long and we still haven't even sniffed at solidifying the position.
I had originally hoped with the new philosophy of being stable from owner down, that it would eventually be reflected in our QB position, but with everything going on with Jimmy, who knows...?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Vers, I also want to ask you one question ......
My feeling is that if Weeden wins the job and is "OK" but not really good, then we should look for a QB in next year's draft.
What should happen, in your opinion, if Campbell wins the job, and is "just OK" ...... maybe 14- 16 TD and 9-12 INT ...... 3000 - 3300 yards ..... kind of a typical kind of Campbell year?
Should we stay with Campbell in that scenario, (or Weeden, for that matter) or should we look to upgrade the position in that event?
Frankly, I am not sure if that is enough for an older QB. (for either guy) I think that one of them has to show something more special to keep the starting job.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Perhaps it would be wiser to root for the QB who gives the Browns the best chance to win rather than the guy you backed?
This is actually pretty funny coming from a guy who obviously cannot wait for Weeden to fail. Hell, I'm pretty sure that you have some kind of criticism of how he goes out to get his mail......
My thoughts on the QB situation are these: If we go into the season with Campbell as the best option at QB we are in trouble. By this I mean that if Weeden cannot beat out what amounts to an average journeyman QB then we really have no QB at all.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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A few things:
1. I said BS about Campbell because I think you are making more out of him playing in the same offense than what is really there. I was never one for those types of reasons/excuses. The best guy should show himself during camps and even before the preseason games begin.
2. I liked Colt? LOL..........I got ripped on the other board because I was so down on him during preseason of his rookie year. I thought he played so poorly that he deserved to get cut. I also got ripped for doubting how much Holmgren and Shurmur were going to improve his game. Nah, I was never in his camp. My only thing has been it seems that people on this board rip him unmercifully while not doing the same to Weeden. That baffles me because I thought both players were equally ineffective. Heck, I think Weeden was perhaps a wee bit worse than Colt--only because he played w/better talent and Colt did seem to step-up at the end of games. But, at the end of the day--I think both guys were lacking.
We didn't have a board war about the qbs on the Brown's site. There was some talk about how it was unfair that Weeden was given the job w/out earning it, but people were not in camps against one another.
3. If Campbell wins the job, we upgrade the position. Even if he has a spectacular year. You have to draft for the future. I don't see Campbell as the long-term answer. Short term? Perhaps.
Weeden would earn more time if he improves and puts up those types of modest numbers. It may not be fair, but he should get more leeway than Campbell. I want to judge him more by a couple of issues than just his numbers. I want to see him improve his field vision. His pre-snap reads. His reading of coverages. I want to see improved pocket presence. I would like to see just a hint of anticipation and actually see him throw a guy open.
I think the coaching and the new offense will help him in certain areas. I think he will be more confident and throw the ball downfield more. I think he might not even hold the ball as long. But, there are some things that you either have as a QB or you don't. I want to see progress in those above areas more than anything. It won't be about stats w/me. Heck, it drives me nuts when people bash Andrew Luck because of his stats.
I am not confident--but I still have hope--that Weeden can improve enough to be our answer at qb. We spent a high pick on him. It would be great if we got a return on our investment. I don't care that the new FO didn't draft him. The Browns did and the best thing for the Browns is for Weeds to be the guy. I am hoping he will be. I am just doubtful at this point. That doesn't mean he will bust. Heck, I could be dead-wrong for even doubting him. I hope I am.
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Quote:
This is actually pretty funny coming from a guy who obviously cannot wait for Weeden to fail. Hell, I'm pretty sure that you have some kind of criticism of how he goes out to get his mail......
Did you wake-up in a happy mood? Sheesh-----
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... I could be dead-wrong for even doubting him. I hope I am.
You, along with many others. At least, those without an agenda...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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We could win 7 games and I could still be less excited than 2012 and vice versa we could again only win 4/5 and be happy about the development of certain players, although at least ONE important player or coach would have to bomb in that sceanrio.
I understand the thought process but it's hard for me to imagine myself using the word "happy" about anything if we win 4 or 5 games...
yebat' Putin
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We hear stories of teams"turning it around" on a dime, but let's be reasonable about this, shall we?
Generally when teams "turn it around on a dime" you can go back and see where for several years they were laying the foundation for that "instant success"...
I believe we have done that over the last 2 or 3 years with Haden, Ward, Mack, Schwartz, Little, Richardson, Gordon, Taylor, Weeden.. the question mark remains, what is the one thing that we need to pull it all together? Is it Chud/Norv/Horton? Will it come together this year, next year, at all?
Right now I believe the foundation has been placed... what will be the spark?
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my feeling is that if Weeden cannot beat Campbell out for the job, then we know all we need to know about him. if whoever wins doesn't have a big year, then we will be looking for a QB in next year's draft.
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Quote:
my feeling is that if Weeden cannot beat Campbell out for the job, then we know all we need to know about him. if whoever wins doesn't have a big year, then we will be looking for a QB in next year's draft.
I believe even if Weeden sees the light and becomes a legit #1 QB we will draft someone next year to sit behind him. If he is mediocre we will be drafting a QB to compete with him. Either way I see us taking a QB.
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Quite frankly, I think that we should look at a QB no matter how Weeden plays.
Worst case scenario, we develop a guy behind Weeden, and then when Weeden's contract comes up we choose between them. Either that or if Weeden has a good year next year, but struggles the following year, then we have a replacement in position, ready to go.
Best case scenario, we wind up with a trade asset that can bring major value to the team.
No matter what, I see no reason not to take a QB high next year. It is supposed to be a plus level class, and many teams who might need QBs drafted backup/developmental types this year that may cause them to look elsewhere next year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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How the hell did make a lot out of him playing in the same offense? The simple fact is that Campbell has played in it twice before. That fact is indisputable. Is it an overwhelming factor? No. However, is it a factor of some account? Yes. Heck, it's one of the reasons that people give for Campbell potentially being a good backup to Weeden ..... so there must be some value to his experience.
I apologize if it was someone else I was thinking of regarding McCoy. I could have sworn that you were an advocate of having him remain the starter. I did read the other board on occasion, but there is almost nothing left of it now, so all I can do is accept what you say.
Again, let me repeat this for the 3rd or 4th times ..... including my original post ...... the Turner "digits" offense is fairly simple to learn, and it shouldn't take Weeden that long to learn it .... but there is some advantage off the bat for Campbell. He has played in this offense for 3 of his 8 years in the NFL, on 2 different teams. Is it some overwhelming advantage for Campbell? No, and I said so .... but to pretend that he's not ahead in knowing the offense going into camp is foolish at best.
As far as a fair competition ..... I have only seen that happen once, and that was the DA/Quinn competition. We saw how that turned out. In most cases, there is a "competition" that is perfunctory at best. One QB starts ... the other backs him up ..... one plays against the starters on the other team ..... and the other plays against the backups. The fans make decisions based on what they see in limited time in pre-season games against generic defenses, and the coaches make theirs based on a wider range of what they see in the entirety of camp. (and sometimes based on their pre-conceived opinions as well) If this camp follows most others in the past, then this "competition" will be over fairly early. Chud saw the disaster the DA/Quinn competition created, and I doubt that he's interested in repeating that.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Seeing as we did almost nothing to upgrade the offense this offseason I don't really expect much at all. Yes we brought in a veteran slot receiver, and a new head coach and coordinator. We still have young and unproven receivers although I do like the potential that Little and Gordon have. We did nothing to upgrade the guard spot and we DOWN-graded at tightend by letting Watson walk. On top of all that we let our best player sign with the 49ers (Phil Dawson).
On the defensive side of the ball I do absolutely love our front 7 and we should have a very strong pass rush between Sheard, Kruger and Mingo. We still did nothing to upgrade the free safety spot and other cornerback spot.
I had zero expectations heading into this season as it was. I don't think Campbell or Weeden are capable Quarterbacks. They're virtually the same type of player. Slow in the pocket, slow on the release, and extremely immobile. Campbell even has a recent history of injury.
I expect us to win 5 or 6 games, while being competitive in 10 or 11 games.
We'll no doubt be picking inside the top 5 or 10 next season.
Unless our front 7 is down right dominant and our young talent explodes on offense, this team won't go anywhere.
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I agree with you on not being over optimistic this year....but its only year one Quote:
Ok, here are me reasons why IMO we should temper our expectations for next year:
1. They didn't sign Phil Dawson: This was a huge red flag to me, I think even Lombardi knows Phil is the best, no way they let him get away if the planned on making a playoff run.
Not a big deal. I respect Dawson, but he's just a kicker, and much easier then most skilled positions to replace. Besides having a kicker as our best player for 14 years is sad.
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2. The draft: Trading away picks for next year, IMO this tells me they are stock piling picks, so next draft they will have the ammo to trade up and finally draft a franchise QB and still have some picks to shore up the defense.*Unless Weeden becomes "it".
The best teams in the league do this year after year as to put themselves in good draft day positioning. Take a look at the Patriots, SF, Cowboys, and Baltimore past drafts. Its a good model for future sucess.
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3. The draft: With D. Milner still available and our defensive backfield being the mess that it is, I was 100% sure they were going to draft him, but they grab MIngo instead who IMO is a tad skinny, it's going to take him a year, maybe more, too do some weight training and add more muscle, so he can be as explosive as we want him to be.
I liked the Mingo pick. Its all speculation until game time.
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I took a look at next years schedule and it seems we are going to face every elite QB in the league with one cover corner, unless every pick is a stud (YEAH RIGHT!!!) we are in trouble.
I say we win around 5 games next year while we fine tune our pass rush and learn a new offense, of course this all goes out the window if #3 can get it together, which I don't think will happen, he does not seem to me (IMO) to be brightest bulb in the pack.
That said, I'm very excited about next years draft, sad I know, we get our db's in order and get the all important franchise qb.
Yes, I can see the lack of optimizim for this year, after all we are all Brown's fans right? We have a new owner now. Only the fourth in franchise history. Nothing, and I mean nothing could be worse then the last three owners the Browns an their fans have had to endure.
A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives.
– Jackie Robinson
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We brought in a pair of veteran TE, and a pair of veteran WR. We also traded for a RB, and brought in a veteran QB. We did quite a lot on offense for a single off-season. We also, as you noted, brought in what I feel is a vastly superior offensive system.
We already had one of the better OL in the NFL last year. We have a promising young RB, and a pair (at least) of quality backup runners. We have a young and promising TE, and a pair of backups. We have 2 young and really exciting WR, who i really like ..... and brought in a couple of high caliber veterans.
Our biggest question mark is at QB. We do have major questions there. However to say that we did nothing to upgrade the talent on offense is not entirely factual.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Bringing in Chud and Turner is a monumental improvement on offense over Shurmur and Childress. Bringing in Peyton Manning but keeping Shurmur would have been a smaller change.
With what Chud did with DA I have no doubt Weeden could do ridiculously well this season. It is also entirely possible our offense will stink. There is no way to tell at this point.
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I believe even if Weeden sees the light and becomes a legit #1 QB we will draft someone next year to sit behind him. If he is mediocre we will be drafting a QB to compete with him. Either way I see us taking a QB.
I'm not so sure. You don't draft a guys potential replacement when the guy is 30 years old. If Weeden proves to be on the #1 trajectory, then you go with him....
If Weeden plays that well, then drafting another QB high would only introduce unneeded controversy, which we wouldn't need, not to mention I doubt we are going to finish next year thinking that we have no other holes to fill so we might as well start drafting backups high in the draft.
Now if you are talking 3rd or 4th round then I might get behind it because that doesn't give the pressure of a guy ready to take over..
If Weeden looks really good, then I'm waiting another 2 years before I think about taking his future replacement.
yebat' Putin
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I could definitely see us taking a 1st round QB, even if Weeden blows up this year and does extremely well.
If we are in position to grab a premium QB, we can sign him for 5 years. That would allow the Browns to control that QB until Weeden is 35. If Weeden then continues to play well, we have a valuable asset. If Weeden struggles, then we have a top flight QB who has been developing with the team.
I would love nothing more than to have not only 1 good QB, but our own potential "Joe Montana/Steve Young" situation.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
Window of opportunitiy is incredibly small in this league. Not a fan of spending a first on a backup.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 560
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 560 |
I agree. If there is a potential franchise QB you take them no matter what your QB situation is. Our situation is that we have 2 older QBs and we need to start thinking about drafting a young one anyway. If Weeden or Campbell does well then we can bring the along slowly.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544 |
j/c
anyway you look at it. have to start looking for a qb because both are getting up in age.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,592 Likes: 815
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,592 Likes: 815 |
Quote:
Yes we brought in a veteran slot receiver, and a new head coach and coordinator
I'd say that is a BIG improvement, unless you were on board with Pat Shurmer and his idea of offense.
Just saying
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 901
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 901 |
1. I think Ytown and Vers are pretty much saying the same thing, but like to argue. 2. Our O was getting better, and under Turner will likely be a LOT better. 3. Every Single Team In The NFL has holes. NO team is perfect. (Denver and San fran/Seattle are very good though). 4. hey, why so negative? Superbowl baby. Browns will make the playoffs this year. I said it first. 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,990 Likes: 362
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,990 Likes: 362 |
Quote:
1. I think Ytown and Vers are pretty much saying the same thing, but like to argue.
If we are, then I, obviously, said it much more brilliantly ......
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530 Likes: 3
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,530 Likes: 3 |
1st a big HELLO to the old dawgs from the former board... Here I'm BTTB there I was Upbeat... I might add I'm back to being just that Upbeat.. My expectations are that this team will be vastly improved from the PF show we witnessed.. That said it will take time to see how the pieces fit, but I think we have the pieces and that is a hug change from the past. My thinking is along the same lines as management if you have been listening to what they have said... Oddly I'm concerned but not overly concerned about the backend because this team is going to bring the heat that will make up quite a bit of ground in the backfield. The QB thing is always out there for us.............  but I think this offense is perfect for Weedens ability he SHOULD excel and prosper and with teams not able to stack up the middle Richardson should have plenty of room to run... For me the one and only missing ingredient on O outside of QB (huge question mark) is road grader guard.. But in this offense and given the time Weedon is sure to have in the pocket if he doesn't progress then he is a lost cause.. I think this team could go several ways to start but to end they should be hitting on all gears outside of the injury bug this team is going to be fun fun fun to watch play.... Sorry I haven't been around much I have been so damned busy.. Tab you and the wife coming over this summer for golf/pool???
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,341 Likes: 98
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,341 Likes: 98 |
Welcome Upbeat ... I mean BTTB 
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136 |
True the backend of our D is young n unproven.
It can go in many directions. A lot will have to do with Gipson at FS n McFadden at CB or Owens (the kid from Atlanta). Skrines, Hagg n Wade need to progress n step up.
It could be a disaster in one direction or we got a surprise All Pro backfield in the other?
Probably some where in the middle more than likely. As you stated the pressure will be key.
Good to read you bttb...summer up in the air as you know we are leaving for Myrtle in about 3 weeks or so. Golf game right now is stuck on 90...if I shoot 50 I follow with 40, 44 sees a 46 to follow. Can't wait to be stuck on 80
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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