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It really is a shame that this thread has singularly become about Obama.... As far as anybody knows, he has nothing to do with this.
This thread should be about rogue IRS agents trying to silence voices and influence an election, lack of oversight, and the quest to figure out how high this goes within the IRS... if somebody wants to point out that it has happened before, that should definitely be considered in the context that it proves a pattern and that the IRS apparently hasn't done enough to get control of it... Obama's name should only be involved in this to the extent that he is taking the appropriate steps to get to the bottom of it and/or putting measures in place to make sure it doesn't happen again.
yebat' Putin
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
It really is a shame that this thread has singularly become about Obama.... As far as anybody knows, he has nothing to do with this.
This thread should be about rogue IRS agents trying to silence voices and influence an election, lack of oversight, and the quest to figure out how high this goes within the IRS... if somebody wants to point out that it has happened before, that should definitely be considered in the context that it proves a pattern and that the IRS apparently hasn't done enough to get control of it... Obama's name should only be involved in this to the extent that he is taking the appropriate steps to get to the bottom of it and/or putting measures in place to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Excellent point. I just had to re-post. 
This thread has really deteriorated since I last opened it. We need to add an elementary primer on logical fallacies to the board rules that everyone is required to read, then maybe we could be free of these paralogisms. To those whom it concerns, your conclusions about Obama do not follow from the premises drawn from this story. Egregious as this abuse of government power is, it doesn't justify your non sequiturs.
P.S. I voted for Romney in November, so save your "agenda" accusations for another poster.
(NRTU, DC)
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Legend
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Quote:
It really is a shame that this thread has singularly become about Obama.... As far as anybody knows, he has nothing to do with this.
This thread should be about rogue IRS agents trying to silence voices and influence an election, lack of oversight, and the quest to figure out how high this goes within the IRS... if somebody wants to point out that it has happened before, that should definitely be considered in the context that it proves a pattern and that the IRS apparently hasn't done enough to get control of it... Obama's name should only be involved in this to the extent that he is taking the appropriate steps to get to the bottom of it and/or putting measures in place to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Agreed,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Just clicking
This falls under the heading of FWIW. to those that hate Obama, this will get laughed at, to those that support him, they will say, see, he didn't have any thing to do with it.
Take your pick
Or people will read/hear what he says and compare that to his stance on Benghazi...and conclude that they can't believe a word he says if there is any chance that he might look bad from it.
Nixon lost all credibility through Watergate. Obama's transgression in Benghazi makes Watergate look like a typo.
Like I said
Like you said? Are you kidding?
Your take and mine could not possibly be more different.
Yeah, like I said if you hate Obama and everything he stands for, anything, big or small that happens becomes the next "Big Mistake"
Conversely, if you feel that Obama is a good president, then you are going to look at it differently.
Despite what you may or may not think, I wasn't knocking you for your beliefs.. hell, believe whatever you want, no skin off my back. I was just pointing out that I was correct in my assumption of what different people might think of it..
Which by the way, is why I wrote,, FWIW.
Guess you missed that point..
Is your point the bolded sentence above? I sure think it is..and I think that is simply not true in every case...yet you present it as if it were.
I can like a guy and not give him a pass on an issue...I can dislike a guy and agree with him on an issue.
Whether I "like" someone or not, it is possible to come to a conclusion without regard to "like" or "dislike".
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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Just clicking
This falls under the heading of FWIW. to those that hate Obama, this will get laughed at, to those that support him, they will say, see, he didn't have any thing to do with it.
Take your pick
Or people will read/hear what he says and compare that to his stance on Benghazi...and conclude that they can't believe a word he says if there is any chance that he might look bad from it.
Nixon lost all credibility through Watergate. Obama's transgression in Benghazi makes Watergate look like a typo.
Like I said
Like you said? Are you kidding?
Your take and mine could not possibly be more different.
Yeah, like I said if you hate Obama and everything he stands for, anything, big or small that happens becomes the next "Big Mistake"
Conversely, if you feel that Obama is a good president, then you are going to look at it differently.
Despite what you may or may not think, I wasn't knocking you for your beliefs.. hell, believe whatever you want, no skin off my back. I was just pointing out that I was correct in my assumption of what different people might think of it..
Which by the way, is why I wrote,, FWIW.
Guess you missed that point..
Is your point the bolded sentence above? I sure think it is..and I think that is simply not true in every case...yet you present it as if it were.
I can like a guy and not give him a pass on an issue...I can dislike a guy and agree with him on an issue.
Whether I "like" someone or not, it is possible to come to a conclusion without regard to "like" or "dislike".
No that was not my point,, Geesh,,
this was my point:
Quote:
I was just pointing out that I was correct in my assumption of what different people might think of it..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I was just pointing out that I was correct in my assumption of what different people might think of it.
Wow...ok.
You tried to use my response to prove that your assumption of 'what people will think' was correct. (Your response of "Like I said")
I disagreed and told you why.
You very well could be correct in many instances and with many people...just not in my case and many others on this board who dislike Obama's policies and actions.
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Not saying what was done is right. But I beleive no group, religion, church, are any organization for that matter should be able to get a tax exemption. A flat rate tax on all income is required and then the IRS can close it's doors and disband altogether. End of story.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Legend
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I was just pointing out that I was correct in my assumption of what different people might think of it.
Wow...ok.
You tried to use my response to prove that your assumption of 'what people will think' was correct. (Your response of "Like I said")
I disagreed and told you why.
You very well could be correct in many instances and with many people...just not in my case and many others on this board who dislike Obama's policies and actions.
Geesh Willie,, you are going off the deep end here. the "Like I said" comment was strictly because I said people would do just what you did. I wasn't saying anything about you being right or wrong,
Had someone come along telling me that opposite of what you said and I saw it, I'd have written "Like I said" to that also.
You need to relax and quit trying to put words in my mouth that I didn't say or even mean,
You read me wrong, you read what I'm thinking wrong, you read what I wrote wrong. Just admit it like a man and let it go for cryin out loud
Or, I guess you can continue to whine over it if it makes you feel more like a man.. your call.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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Quote:
It really is a shame that this thread has singularly become about Obama.... As far as anybody knows, he has nothing to do with this.
This thread should be about rogue IRS agents trying to silence voices and influence an election, lack of oversight, and the quest to figure out how high this goes within the IRS... if somebody wants to point out that it has happened before, that should definitely be considered in the context that it proves a pattern and that the IRS apparently hasn't done enough to get control of it... Obama's name should only be involved in this to the extent that he is taking the appropriate steps to get to the bottom of it and/or putting measures in place to make sure it doesn't happen again.
I agree with you, and am glad there's a voice of reason to remind us...
...but... 
...whether it's fair, logical or deserving, he's going to have to carry some of this - at least in the short term - mainly due to his recent charges that it's just his crazy detractors spreading nonsense about how the government is out to get you. He's been beating the 'government is here to help you drum' quite a bit lately.
Again...it's not logical or fair or deserving...but those things don't really matter when it comes down to the brass tacks of politics.
He's set the table for the sort of thing to be thrown back in his face.
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Legend
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Quote:
Not saying what was done is right. But I beleive no group, religion, church, are any organization for that matter should be able to get a tax exemption. A flat rate tax on all income is required and then the IRS can close it's doors and disband altogether. End of story.
I'm sure the government would like that because it would wipe out the majority of non-profits who survive on tax deductible donations and thus make way for the government to provide for all of the needs of even more people.
yebat' Putin
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All Pro
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All Pro
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Quote:
It really is a shame that this thread has singularly become about Obama.... As far as anybody knows, he has nothing to do with this.
This thread should be about rogue IRS agents trying to silence voices and influence an election, lack of oversight, and the quest to figure out how high this goes within the IRS... if somebody wants to point out that it has happened before, that should definitely be considered in the context that it proves a pattern and that the IRS apparently hasn't done enough to get control of it... Obama's name should only be involved in this to the extent that he is taking the appropriate steps to get to the bottom of it and/or putting measures in place to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Forgive me, nothing to do with Obama? 
GO BROWNS!
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Legend
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What does it have to do with Obama?
yebat' Putin
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Dawg Talker
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I typed up a response earlier, but I still haven't gotthis board down like the other one. It will take me awhile to learn who is who here. I know a few already from the old board. I have criticized Obama. I will admit I have never accused of being the anti-Christ or the absolute worse president ever. If you believe these things about him then I apologize, but like I said I'm still learning. I've voted at least 4 diferent parties. The last prez election I voted Obama against Romney and the party that's promised jobs but has only delivered grid lock. I've accepted that in the new PC I am considered liberal, but I highly doubt it. I've been married forever to one woman and it wasn't easy for either of us. We raised our kids to be confident, self-sufficient, and sober. I've worked in factories in the past, a couple, and I believe if you don't like your job then quit and find one you like. But I also believe that if your employer expects you to maintain the same wage while he/she profits, or refuses to provide simple benfits when they obviously can, or if they expect you to work in an unsafe or healthy environment then that's when we need the power of unions. I believe the conservatives are determined to bust unions and that's wrong. Say what you want about the political clout of unions it was completely and entirely dwarfed by the power created by Citizens United. That's why I voted Nader in 2008. He's crazy and an ass to people, but his desire has been to speak for workers and consumers. I am probably most accurate when I describe myself as anti-conservative. They and their pundits nearly destroyed any chance of civil discourse in politics again. Sure they criticize repubs, but only the ones they believe aren't conservative enough and even then they save all the hyperbolic venom for dems, minorities, women, gays, etc. Plus they do it while claiming that it's they who are being vicitmized by the government. I may have a problem with governments in general but I'm not willing to break this one to satisfy a bunch of... nevermind, I'll attempt to stay civil. Like I've said before, when it comes to this type of discussion I'm guilty as charged. I'll jump in with both feet and make as much nonsense as I believe is necessary. I believe the "founding fathers", the real ones not the imagined ones constantly refered to by people who attempt to state they're more American than others, created a good government. One that is supposed to move slowly and deliberately, not one that is grid-locked and shut-down. I tend to believe the answer is campaign finance reform and ending financial or ANY gain from lobbyists. I don't think politicians deserve life-time anything that a soldier doesn't get. I believe their raises should be voted on by their constituents. Other than that I expect them to be politicians and if you honestly believe that a completely honest politician is very effective then I apologize, because some of the most effective have been the ones who have wheeled and dealed and may avoided honesty while doing so. Like I said, I like our government. I obviously don't like the way this one is working, but I also tend to believe BOTH parties end up doing stupid..... ....because of the POLITCAL in the sense of "our team vs your team" atmosphere that is currently gripping nearly every level of government. "What if I do this?" "Well then you'd upset whositwhat and the other team will kill you in the coming election" "Why are we voting on this AGAIN?" "So there's a record of how people vote and we can kill them in the next election." I think the election cycle should be cut down to less than 2 months. How much difference is there between Obama and Hillary or Romney and Perry? I'm talking REAL difference not campaign statement diference. Man I think this a record length post for me!!! So if you want to poke me and criticize then please believe that it's all cool and I expect to be able to do the same in kind. Why? Because for some crazy reason I think it's fun, which is why I usually put something like  to show that I'm just an idiot or I'm just having fun. Of course there are times when I'll come across like Ol' Osawatamie Brown.
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You'll have to excuse Mittcreek. He hasn't gotten over the last election. 
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Quote:
What does it have to do with Obama?
Well, it's he that is the president, isn't he? He's responsible (at least presidents used to be) for the actions of their underlings in their administrations.
And, it isn't like it was just some low-level IRS employees. It's already known that the attempt to pin it on some 'rogue employees in Cincy' is a lie.
Yeah, he should be the one taking the heat. He knew it was going on and if he didn't then where was the breakdown in communications? He absolutely should have known and if he didn't, how far up does it go and why did it only get that high and stop?
When the government officials and employees are committing crimes, why aren't they being prosecuted?
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All Pro
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Quote:
I typed up a response earlier, but I still haven't gotthis board down like the other one.
It will take me awhile to learn who is who here. I know a few already from the old board.
I have criticized Obama. I will admit I have never accused of being the anti-Christ or the absolute worse president ever. If you believe these things about him then I apologize, but like I said I'm still learning.
I've voted at least 4 diferent parties. The last prez election I voted Obama against Romney and the party that's promised jobs but has only delivered grid lock.
I've accepted that in the new PC I am considered liberal, but I highly doubt it. I've been married forever to one woman and it wasn't easy for either of us. We raised our kids to be confident, self-sufficient, and sober.
I've worked in factories in the past, a couple, and I believe if you don't like your job then quit and find one you like. But I also believe that if your employer expects you to maintain the same wage while he/she profits, or refuses to provide simple benfits when they obviously can, or if they expect you to work in an unsafe or healthy environment then that's when we need the power of unions. I believe the conservatives are determined to bust unions and that's wrong. Say what you want about the political clout of unions it was completely and entirely dwarfed by the power created by Citizens United. That's why I voted Nader in 2008. He's crazy and an ass to people, but his desire has been to speak for workers and consumers.
I am probably most accurate when I describe myself as anti-conservative. They and their pundits nearly destroyed any chance of civil discourse in politics again. Sure they criticize repubs, but only the ones they believe aren't conservative enough and even then they save all the hyperbolic venom for dems, minorities, women, gays, etc. Plus they do it while claiming that it's they who are being vicitmized by the government.
I may have a problem with governments in general but I'm not willing to break this one to satisfy a bunch of... nevermind, I'll attempt to stay civil. Like I've said before, when it comes to this type of discussion I'm guilty as charged. I'll jump in with both feet and make as much nonsense as I believe is necessary.
I believe the "founding fathers", the real ones not the imagined ones constantly refered to by people who attempt to state they're more American than others, created a good government. One that is supposed to move slowly and deliberately, not one that is grid-locked and shut-down.
I tend to believe the answer is campaign finance reform and ending financial or ANY gain from lobbyists. I don't think politicians deserve life-time anything that a soldier doesn't get. I believe their raises should be voted on by their constituents. Other than that I expect them to be politicians and if you honestly believe that a completely honest politician is very effective then I apologize, because some of the most effective have been the ones who have wheeled and dealed and may avoided honesty while doing so.
Like I said, I like our government. I obviously don't like the way this one is working, but I also tend to believe BOTH parties end up doing stupid..... ....because of the POLITCAL in the sense of "our team vs your team" atmosphere that is currently gripping nearly every level of government.
"What if I do this?"
"Well then you'd upset whositwhat and the other team will kill you in the coming election"
"Why are we voting on this AGAIN?"
"So there's a record of how people vote and we can kill them in the next election."
I think the election cycle should be cut down to less than 2 months. How much difference is there between Obama and Hillary or Romney and Perry?
I'm talking REAL difference not campaign statement diference.
Man I think this a record length post for me!!!
So if you want to poke me and criticize then please believe that it's all cool and I expect to be able to do the same in kind.
Why?
Because for some crazy reason I think it's fun, which is why I usually put something like to show that I'm just an idiot or I'm just having fun.
Of course there are times when I'll come across like Ol' Osawatamie Brown.
Weiner, 37 "I's" in your post, it is very first person sensitive, kinda like Harry or Nancy.
GO BROWNS!
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
Quote:
I typed up a response earlier, but I still haven't gotthis board down like the other one.
It will take me awhile to learn who is who here. I know a few already from the old board.
I have criticized Obama. I will admit I have never accused of being the anti-Christ or the absolute worse president ever. If you believe these things about him then I apologize, but like I said I'm still learning.
I've voted at least 4 diferent parties. The last prez election I voted Obama against Romney and the party that's promised jobs but has only delivered grid lock.
I've accepted that in the new PC I am considered liberal, but I highly doubt it. I've been married forever to one woman and it wasn't easy for either of us. We raised our kids to be confident, self-sufficient, and sober.
I've worked in factories in the past, a couple, and I believe if you don't like your job then quit and find one you like. But I also believe that if your employer expects you to maintain the same wage while he/she profits, or refuses to provide simple benfits when they obviously can, or if they expect you to work in an unsafe or healthy environment then that's when we need the power of unions. I believe the conservatives are determined to bust unions and that's wrong. Say what you want about the political clout of unions it was completely and entirely dwarfed by the power created by Citizens United. That's why I voted Nader in 2008. He's crazy and an ass to people, but his desire has been to speak for workers and consumers.
I am probably most accurate when I describe myself as anti-conservative. They and their pundits nearly destroyed any chance of civil discourse in politics again. Sure they criticize repubs, but only the ones they believe aren't conservative enough and even then they save all the hyperbolic venom for dems, minorities, women, gays, etc. Plus they do it while claiming that it's they who are being vicitmized by the government.
I may have a problem with governments in general but I'm not willing to break this one to satisfy a bunch of... nevermind, I'll attempt to stay civil. Like I've said before, when it comes to this type of discussion I'm guilty as charged. I'll jump in with both feet and make as much nonsense as I believe is necessary.
I believe the "founding fathers", the real ones not the imagined ones constantly refered to by people who attempt to state they're more American than others, created a good government. One that is supposed to move slowly and deliberately, not one that is grid-locked and shut-down.
I tend to believe the answer is campaign finance reform and ending financial or ANY gain from lobbyists. I don't think politicians deserve life-time anything that a soldier doesn't get. I believe their raises should be voted on by their constituents. Other than that I expect them to be politicians and if you honestly believe that a completely honest politician is very effective then I apologize, because some of the most effective have been the ones who have wheeled and dealed and may avoided honesty while doing so.
Like I said, I like our government. I obviously don't like the way this one is working, but I also tend to believe BOTH parties end up doing stupid..... ....because of the POLITCAL in the sense of "our team vs your team" atmosphere that is currently gripping nearly every level of government.
"What if I do this?"
"Well then you'd upset whositwhat and the other team will kill you in the coming election"
"Why are we voting on this AGAIN?"
"So there's a record of how people vote and we can kill them in the next election."
I think the election cycle should be cut down to less than 2 months. How much difference is there between Obama and Hillary or Romney and Perry?
I'm talking REAL difference not campaign statement diference.
Man I think this a record length post for me!!!
So if you want to poke me and criticize then please believe that it's all cool and I expect to be able to do the same in kind.
Why?
Because for some crazy reason I think it's fun, which is why I usually put something like to show that I'm just an idiot or I'm just having fun.
Of course there are times when I'll come across like Ol' Osawatamie Brown.
Weiner, 37 "I's" in your post, it is very first person sensitive, kinda like Harry or Nancy.
You really had to quote the whole thing to do a lame Pelosi/reid hate?
You, THAT'S YOU, are your own worst enemy.
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I love Stewarts sarcastic look at things.. guy cracks me up. But in that sarcasm is a bit of truth.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Not saying what was done is right. But I beleive no group, religion, church, are any organization for that matter should be able to get a tax exemption. A flat rate tax on all income is required and then the IRS can close it's doors and disband altogether. End of story.
I'm sure the government would like that because it would wipe out the majority of non-profits who survive on tax deductible donations and thus make way for the government to provide for all of the needs of even more people.
LOL nice spin. 
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Quote:
It really is a shame that this thread has singularly become about Obama.... As far as anybody knows, he has nothing to do with this.
This thread should be about rogue IRS agents trying to silence voices and influence an election, lack of oversight, and the quest to figure out how high this goes within the IRS... if somebody wants to point out that it has happened before, that should definitely be considered in the context that it proves a pattern and that the IRS apparently hasn't done enough to get control of it... Obama's name should only be involved in this to the extent that he is taking the appropriate steps to get to the bottom of it and/or putting measures in place to make sure it doesn't happen again.
And here I thought obama was the chief administrator for the government. Doesn't that put him in charge of the IRS, CIA, FBI, State Department, etc, etc, etc? Maybe he's just a figurehead for photo-ops and golf game deal making.
Ask yourself, didn't most of our ancestors leave countries that used their governments against certain groups of people? Quite simply, our government has been caught using a secret police force (the IRS) against people that don't agree with the current administration. They are labling Christians, Jews, conservatives, and believers in our Constitution and freedom as radicals and possible terrorists. Where will you go now?
![[Linked Image from s2.excoboard.com]](http://s2.excoboard.com/forums/25521/user/302752/484538.gif)
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Well, it's he that is the president, isn't he? He's responsible (at least presidents used to be) for the actions of their underlings in their administrations.
If you believe that a President should be directly aware of and responsible for the actions of all 2.5 million federal government employees... then yes, I assume yours is a reasonable assumption make.
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Yeah, he should be the one taking the heat. He knew it was going on and if he didn't then where was the breakdown in communications?
Do you know for sure that he knew or are you just speculating? What breakdown in communication? Do you think any President in the history of this country has kept up with who gets audited and who doesn't?
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He absolutely should have known and if he didn't, how far up does it go and why did it only get that high and stop?
I'm absolutely amazed that you believe he should have known who was being audited and why.. As far as your question, that is the one everybody should be working to answer and, as I said in my other post, now that it's out there, I do expect the President to be very visible in his efforts to figure out who knew what and who directed what..
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When the government officials and employees are committing crimes, why aren't they being prosecuted?
Another very worthwhile question. I would hope that once the information is out there and confirmed that legal action is pursued... however my guess is that in the end, some low level folks will get tossed on their swords for it and any higher ups will walk away unscathed. I don't like it, but that's the reality we live in and it isn't just Obama who has acted that way.
yebat' Putin
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And here I thought obama was the chief administrator for the government. Doesn't that put him in charge of the IRS, CIA, FBI, State Department, etc, etc, etc? Maybe he's just a figurehead for photo-ops and golf game deal making.
I continue to marvel at this notion that somehow Obama is supposed to know what all 2.5 million of his federal employees are doing at any given time... and that he should be held personally responsible for any of their transgressions...
Needless to say, there is a wide gap in job scope between being a figure head golfing deal maker and knowing what Agent Sally Johnson in the DoJ San Antonio field office is doing today.
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Ask yourself, didn't most of our ancestors leave countries that used their governments against certain groups of people? Quite simply, our government has been caught using a secret police force (the IRS) against people that don't agree with the current administration. They are labling Christians, Jews, conservatives, and believers in our Constitution and freedom as radicals and possible terrorists. Where will you go now?
Yes, clearly this is a sign of the growing of the 4th Reich... I'm not happy about it. Figure out who did it, who ordered it, and who knew what and punish them... but to go right to Obama and say this is his fault and he should be punished is absolutely ludicrous.. and I can't stand the guy.
yebat' Putin
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I continue to marvel at this notion that somehow Obama is supposed to know what all 2.5 million of his federal employees are doing at any given time... and that he should be held personally responsible for any of their transgressions...
Is he or is he not the head of the administration? Didn't most of you hold Randy Lerner responsible for the state of the Browns for the past several years? As an example, are you going to tell me he wasn't blameless for his ineptitude in hiring the right people?
Right now, our administration is full of people that will stop at nothing to assure they destroy the opposing party and their viewpoints, and assure their party's re-election, no matter the cost to the people. Is the president not culpable for his decisions in who he hires to oversee the government? Has his 'blame republicans/conservatives/whites/christians/gun owners/Bush/anyone other than himself' policies not given the order to open the floodgates to the sycophants under his control? The man created a 'culture of corruption' in his government that they swore was the problem in the previous administration. Please read history on how the Nazis came into power. They did the exact same things this government is doing now.
Silence the opposition through intimidation. Tax them into obscurity. Propogandize the populace against them. Assure only people that share in your beliefs are in positions of power.
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DC, this post by you and the one directly above it pretty much spell it out perfectly
In the end, we may, at some point come to find out that Obama ordered the IRS to make those audits or to Question those groups. I doubt it, but maybe.
At this point however, it's just unreasonable to assume he knows what all 2.5 million Federal Employees are doing at every moment of each day 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.
I don't think any president could do that. I don't think any human being could do that.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Is he or is he not the head of the administration? Didn't most of you hold Randy Lerner responsible for the state of the Browns for the past several years? As an example, are you going to tell me he wasn't blameless for his ineptitude in hiring the right people?
Yes, yes, no. I did hold Randy Lerner responsible for the state of the Browns. However I did not hold him responsible for the actions of any small group of people many layers beneath him... If I screw up on my job should the guy who hired the guy who hired the guy who hired the guy who hired me be blamed?
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Right now, our administration is full of people that will stop at nothing to assure they destroy the opposing party and their viewpoints, and assure their party's re-election, no matter the cost to the people.
I agree with everything except the "right now" part... I do blame the President for appointing a lot of people and hiring others and the disasters that have taken place as a result.. however he's not the first person that has done it.. go back through the last 10 Presidents and make a list... so my point isn't that Obama is blameless, my point is that maybe it is more about the structure/function of our government, maybe it is a bigger issue than Obama that needs fixed... because Bush did a lot of the same things, so did Clinton.. and pretty much every President before them going back as far as I can remember... So impeaching Obama, holding him accountable, getting to the next election and replacing him... what good do you believe that will do? Do you believe the next guy or gal is going to be that much better? Depending on the initial beside his/her name, some group is going to claim that person is taking away our rights, committing all kinds of crimes, leading us toward socialism/theocracy/fascism/dictatorship, take your pick....
yebat' Putin
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I just thought that I would add this editorial from that bastion of conservatism, the Plain Dealer ...... It's kinda funny ...... and kinda sad ..... given that much of it has some basis in fact ...... All the president's fall guys: Kevin O'Brien | cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/obrien/index.ss...#incart_opinionGood afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I'm very pleased to welcome you to our annual Federal Employees of the Year luncheon. We are here today to honor the people who get things done when the pressure's on. You know, as the president, I get credit for a lot of things, and it's well-deserved. But the decisions I make are broad and conceptual. I leave the details to you, and to the thousands of people with whom you work side by side every day in cubicles across this great land. Often during my administration, you've heard outsiders talk about "low-level" employees of our magnificent federal government. Now, let me be clear: I'm tired of hearing that sort of thing, ladies and gentlemen, because, frankly, I think it's insulting. In my administration, no one is a low-level employee. Everyone is a decision maker. Some may think of the people in this room as anonymous bureaucrats, but I think of you as full partners in this presidency -- experts who fully deserve the autonomy they exercise. In my administration, the drones don't sit behind desks. They fly! That's why I never, ever micromanage. I consider it vital to the continued functioning of this administration that important decisions be made at the lowest possible level -- by the folks who, unlike me, have to live with the results. Yes, you're far below Cabinet level, but I trust you guys. And if something you dream up doesn't work out, I hear about it eventually -- probably just read about it in the paper, like every other American who had absolutely nothing to do with it. Then we set about fixing it and learning from it, so you don't make the same mistake again. So, please accept my deepest thanks for everything you do to keep me out of trouble and to move America forward. Before we all take the rest of the day off because of sequestration, there are a few people I want to single out for special recognition. Edna Dimmelfarb, come on up here. . . . Edna is a file clerk at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Phoenix. Entirely on her own initiative, she came up with the gun-walking program known as Fast and Furious. Now, don't look so surprised, Edna. It's time you got the credit you deserve. Next, I want to bring up Bill Farnsworth, from the State Department. . . . Bill's just 19 years old, right out of high school, and he's a messenger. It's his job to carry important notes from one office to another so they get into the right hands, right away. Back in September, after running his legs off carrying sensitive memos from State to the CIA and back, Bill took it upon himself to fix the Benghazi talking points. The next morning, on the weekly TV talk shows, U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice put her full trust in Bill's rendition of the events. No, Bill, you stay right here. We're taking some photos once everyone's on the stage. Bertha Clark is here today, all the way from Cincinnati. Come on up, Bertha. . . . Bertha works for the IRS, processing applications for tax-exempt status. A couple of years ago, she decided -- all on her own -- to make sure that Tea Party and "patriot" groups were paying their fair share to support our great socialist leap forward -- er, I mean our great democratic experiment. Now, it might seem strange to some that an IRS forms processor could wield such power, but that's the kind of administration I believe in. Oh, my! Could someone get Bertha a glass of water? And finally, I want to call on Joseph Fabeetz Jr., a student trainee at the Department of Justice. Joe? . . . You want to talk about patriots? You don't need to look any further than this young man, right here. When Attorney General Eric Holder recused himself from the tough decision on tapping the phones of a bunch of Associated Press reporters, it was young Joe who stepped up and signed the order. I've got it right here. Your signature, right Joe? No, you don't need to see it again. You're the intern and I'm the president. Folks, it's a privilege to stand here with these great American public servants. Without them, and many others like them -- people who don't wait around for orders, who ignore the chain of command whenever they see a need, who just go completely and inexplicably rogue whenever they get the urge -- my administration would not survive. O’Brien is The Plain Dealer’s deputy editorial page editor.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I agree with everything except the "right now" part... I do blame the President for appointing a lot of people and hiring others and the disasters that have taken place as a result.. however he's not the first person that has done it.. go back through the last 10 Presidents and make a list... so my point isn't that Obama is blameless, my point is that maybe it is more about the structure/function of our government, maybe it is a bigger issue than Obama that needs fixed... because Bush did a lot of the same things, so did Clinton.. and pretty much every President before them going back as far as I can remember... So impeaching Obama, holding him accountable, getting to the next election and replacing him... what good do you believe that will do? Do you believe the next guy or gal is going to be that much better? Depending on the initial beside his/her name, some group is going to claim that person is taking away our rights, committing all kinds of crimes, leading us toward socialism/theocracy/fascism/dictatorship, take your pick....
I don't care if he's the first, 2nd, 3rd, or just the latest to do this. I don't care if he's liberal, conservative, republican, or democrat. Using the IRS in this manner is illegal. Maybe if we started to hold our temporary public servants to a higher standard, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in right now. It's time to hold them to that higher standard. This entire administration should be up against the wall right now for crimes against the American people.
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And here I thought obama was the chief administrator for the government. Doesn't that put him in charge of the IRS, CIA, FBI, State Department, etc, etc, etc? Maybe he's just a figurehead for photo-ops and golf game deal making.
I continue to marvel at this notion that somehow Obama is supposed to know what all 2.5 million of his federal employees are doing at any given time... and that he should be held personally responsible for any of their transgressions...
I hated it when people would use the exact mindset to try and pin things on Bush, and I hate it now. The idea that the President is not only aware of the behavior of every single person in the federal government, but that those people also sit around in some sort of coma and only act when given a direct order from the President himself.
I hate this mindset in college football too ... as if a college football coach has complete control over what goes on behind the scenes between 60-90 football players, a few dozen coaches and staff, and a few thousand boosters. If some booster decides he wants to bribe a player to come to a college, then somehow the head coach was supposed to know about that ... and is ultimately the one that gets suspended because of it. 
That's not to say the coach or president was behind something illicit ... that's why we have things called investigations. But this inane "he's at the top, so he must be responsible idea" is just silly.
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Well, it's he that is the president, isn't he? He's responsible (at least presidents used to be) for the actions of their underlings in their administrations.
If you believe that a President should be directly aware of and responsible for the actions of all 2.5 million federal government employees... then yes, I assume yours is a reasonable assumption make.
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Yeah, he should be the one taking the heat. He knew it was going on and if he didn't then where was the breakdown in communications?
Do you know for sure that he knew or are you just speculating? What breakdown in communication? Do you think any President in the history of this country has kept up with who gets audited and who doesn't?
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He absolutely should have known and if he didn't, how far up does it go and why did it only get that high and stop?
I'm absolutely amazed that you believe he should have known who was being audited and why.. As far as your question, that is the one everybody should be working to answer and, as I said in my other post, now that it's out there, I do expect the President to be very visible in his efforts to figure out who knew what and who directed what..
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When the government officials and employees are committing crimes, why aren't they being prosecuted?
Another very worthwhile question. I would hope that once the information is out there and confirmed that legal action is pursued... however my guess is that in the end, some low level folks will get tossed on their swords for it and any higher ups will walk away unscathed. I dln't like it, but that's the reality we live in and it isn't just Obama who has acted that way.
Obama should know if political enemies of his are being targeted by the federal government. Yes. There is a bureaucratic structure but someone in the bureaucracy that had the power knew about it and would be responsible enough to tell their bosses up the chain. If Obama doesn't know about then someone working nearer to him than further away in that structure knew and stopped the information from getting to him. Obama certainly has the power to find that out and that person should be gone.
Sure, we could speculate that they are gone now - as the IRS director is now out (well soon-to-be) and he's the one performing the act of seppuku.
Being a government employee, I don't expect you to have the same viewpoint at those outside of the government workforce.
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So, in essence you believe the President should know every move each of the 2.5 million Federal Employees are doing at all times? Do I have that right?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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There's an old sea story about a ship's Captain who inspected his sailors, and afterward told the first mate that his men smelled bad...
The Captain suggested perhÚps it would help if the sailors would change underwear occasionally.
The first mate responded, "Aye, aye sir, I'll see to it immediately!"
The first mate went straight to the sailors berth deck and announced, "The Captain thinks you guys smell bad and wants you to change your underwear."
He continued, "Pittman, you change with Jones, McCarthy, you change with Witkowski, And Brown, you change with Schultz."
THE MORAL OF THE STORY:
Someone may come along and promise "Change", but don't count on things smelling any better.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Now can we get an apoligy from the IRS for targeting minority and liberal groups in the 50's 60's 70's, 80's and 90's? Doubt it, only when the utra white and ultra conservative groups are targeted they scream foul that something is all of a sudden wrong with the IRS, and want to impeach the black president. Double standards as usual.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Using the IRS in this manner is illegal.
I agree. So figure out who knew what and take the appropriate legal action.
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Maybe if we started to hold our temporary public servants to a higher standard, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in right now.
I agree again. My point is that the system has evolved into one where the President is purposely kept in the dark so he can have plausible deniability. So while we can punish Obama for being in the dark (which I believe he was) we also need to figure out how to fix the system or the next President is just going to do the same thing.... and you can't fire, impeach, or imprison a guy because other people, even people he hired, did something that he knew nothing about.
yebat' Putin
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There is a bureaucratic structure but someone in the bureaucracy that had the power knew about it and would be responsible enough to tell their bosses up the chain.
Those people feel a responsibility to NOT tell the President if somebody under him is doing something that is likely to put him in jeopardy if discovered.
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If Obama doesn't know about then someone working nearer to him than further away in that structure knew and stopped the information from getting to him. Obama certainly has the power to find that out and that person should be gone.
He does have the power to find out but if you don't know to ask or dig... then you don't ask or dig.
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Being a government employee, I don't expect you to have the same viewpoint at those outside of the government workforce.
I am not now, nor have I ever been, a government employee. I was a contractor with them for about 2 years a long time ago.
yebat' Putin
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So, in essence you believe the President should know every move each of the 2.5 million Federal Employees are doing at all times? Do I have that right?
Absolutely not. What I am saying (since this has bee going on since early 2010), that Obama knew somewhere down the line or a very high official somewhere along the line did.
Also, as the president, Obama is ultimately responsible for those under his charge.
To quote Harry Truman, 'The buck stops here.' Yes. Obama is responsible for the work that everyone working under him does.
Furthermore, Obama should have known. If he didn't know, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't reflect on him.
It's the same reason why he's taking heat for what happened in Benghazi (although, he may have had more direct culpability for that). Hillary Clinton's failures are his failures. He is the ultimate person responsible for the deaths of the ambassador and the others three men. Yes, it rests on his shoulders.
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Now can we get an apoligy from the IRS for targeting minority and liberal groups in the 50's 60's 70's, 80's and 90's? Doubt it, only when the utra white and ultra conservative groups are targeted they scream foul that something is all of a sudden wrong with the IRS, and want to impeach the black president. Double standards as usual.
It only takes a single post for you to make the list. Congratulations!
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My apologies if you aren't a government employee. I thought it was you that had admitted to that. I must have you mixed up with another.
Now, back to the other points.
The president is responsible for those, who in the course of their work, they work under him. Period. The buck stops with him and him alone.
If someone did not inform him when they should have, it's still his responsibility. He may determine that certain people are culpable and take appropriate action, but that doesn't end his responsibility. What occurred was ILLEGAL. It wasn't just bad judgment by some workers. It was CRIMINAL activity and should be treated as such.
Dig, dig, dig.... but trying to say that 'firing' a man who would be out of a job in a few weeks anyway isn't the end. And the president shouldn't say anything except that an investigation is underway. Neither should anyone charged with speaking for the president. But they have come out and said that these were 'rogue employees'. These 'rogue employees' have denied that assertion and have said that they were ordered by their bosses to do these criminal activities. So, either these employees are lying or their bosses are.
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Dawg, Anarchy2day clearly does not work because anyone who has worked in a large company, organization..etc. knows that the CEO/President..will not know the day to day small operations in company. By his logic Pres Obama gets a report on the daily operations of the IRS field office in Cincy, down to a specific Unit!!. But to all you so-called conservatives, did any of you all READ (* I know, Conservative and readin does not work with you all!!..LMFAO *) the IRS's IG report. Probably not!!. I know the fox channel told you all not to worry about that. But for everyone else, you might want to read it because you might find that the so-called targets were not done out of political spite but out of processing and lack of direction!! http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2013/05/politics/irs-timeline/index.html
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... IRS apologizes for targeting
conservative groups
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