I love having competition all over the roster ...... but just because a 7th round rookie is playing at a certain position right now doesn't mean that he's bound to be the starter there. He could easily work at RG in the rookie camps because of the makeup of the team, then switch to LG, or even Tackle when camp starts. Gilkey has had 3 practices, in shorts with no pads ........
Back to the overreactions though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I realize that you weren't necessarily addressing your response to me. At any rate, competition from new players doesn't have to result in a player being replaced in order to benefit the team. If it leads to a higher caliber of play by the incumbent that's great also. It might benefit the team by reducing the drop off in performance when a starter comes off the field. It could also allow for more rotation at positions where fatigue can be a factor. The prospect of any or all of that does make me want to overreact!
hey, don't you know that acting reasonable about something is boring. You must castigate the FO for overloading on so so talent. You must point out that any of our players would certainly be a practice squad player on any other team. But for God's sake, don't even hint that we might be building a team properly.... I' mean this is the Browns
Quote: Anarchy,,if your are anything like me, you don't care who gets the job, you just want the best man to win.. Am I right? I'd hope that's the way the Browns are looking at it. I really hate favoritism. and so far this regime doesn't seem to have any favorites. At least not ones that are fan favorites. gone are Dawson and Cribbs and to a degree Watson (only because he's proven whereas everything else we have at TE isn't really)
In regards to the Browns, I believe we are similar in the view about which player gets the job.
With that said, I'm not going to smooth over that I don't think much of Lauvao.
Curiously enough, I have no qualms about the Browns letting Dawson, Cribbs and Watson go.
Quote: I love having competition all over the roster ...... but just because a 7th round rookie is playing at a certain position right now doesn't mean that he's bound to be the starter there. He could easily work at RG in the rookie camps because of the makeup of the team, then switch to LG, or even Tackle when camp starts. Gilkey has had 3 practices, in shorts with no pads ........
Back to the overreactions though.
That's true, in part. I don't expect that the Browns would be placing him at a position in either OT spot since he probably has next to no chance of taking the job away from Thomas or Schwartz.
He may get some work at those positions, but it isn't likely right now. That he's working at one of the guard spots indicates that is where they have him targeted at in the competition.
Quote: I love having competition all over the roster ...... but just because a 7th round rookie is playing at a certain position right now doesn't mean that he's bound to be the starter there. He could easily work at RG in the rookie camps because of the makeup of the team, then switch to LG, or even Tackle when camp starts. Gilkey has had 3 practices, in shorts with no pads ........
Back to the overreactions though.
That's true, in part. I don't expect that the Browns would be placing him at a position in either OT spot since he probably has next to no chance of taking the job away from Thomas or Schwartz.
He may get some work at those positions, but it isn't likely right now. That he's working at one of the guard spots indicates that is where they have him targeted at in the competition.
Maybe. Or maybe they just didn't have a RG in camp, and needed to see what he could do there. Maybe they feel that they don't have a backup Guard at present. There are so many other reasons other than him being ticketed for the fast track to the RG spot.
I am all for anything that makes this team better. If he is the best player at RG, or even at RT for that matter, then I am OK with him beating out another player. However, when we throw guys into the starting role, after 3 days, not even in pads, in a rookie mini-camp, we are somewhat delusional. (and we all get overly excited about players from time to time)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Maybe. Or maybe they just didn't have a RG in camp, and needed to see what he could do there. Maybe they feel that they don't have a backup Guard at present. There are so many other reasons other than him being ticketed for the fast track to the RG spot.
I am all for anything that makes this team better. If he is the best player at RG, or even at RT for that matter, then I am OK with him beating out another player. However, when we throw guys into the starting role, after 3 days, not even in pads, in a rookie mini-camp, we are somewhat delusional. (and we all get overly excited about players from time to time)
Well, there is Ryan Miller and Jarrod Shaw on the roster currently.
And there are 5 rookie OL in rookie camp, so they have enough bodies, but trying to decide if he can possibly take over for Lauvao is likely to be #1 on that list. Even in rookie camp and without pads on, they're looking for certain abilities and playing form to see if there is anything to build on or whether a player has natural talent that can be utilized.
Whoa, man... that drill Mingo is doing at 2:15, he looks awesome. The one where you punch, drop back, slide, then rush. Great job moving while keeping his eyes forward!
Quote: Anarchy,,if your are anything like me, you don't care who gets the job, you just want the best man to win.. Am I right? I'd hope that's the way the Browns are looking at it. I really hate favoritism. and so far this regime doesn't seem to have any favorites. At least not ones that are fan favorites. gone are Dawson and Cribbs and to a degree Watson (only because he's proven whereas everything else we have at TE isn't really)
In regards to the Browns, I believe we are similar in the view about which player gets the job.
With that said, I'm not going to smooth over that I don't think much of Lauvao.
Curiously enough, I have no qualms about the Browns letting Dawson, Cribbs and Watson go.
Doesn't matter what you think of him, if he turns out to be the best we have available to us at that position then what? Do we kick him to the curb in favor of a lesser player to satisfy you, or may the best man win?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- When the Browns opened rookie camp, the reality of what the team did in the 2013 draft was obvious.
There was Barkevious Mingo, the first rounder. The new front office absolutely loves this guy. He was one of the four "blue chippers" that they had on their draft board, and may have been No. 1 on that list.
But the fact is the 237-pounder will have to convert from defensive end in LSU's 4-3 defense to an outside linebacker in the Browns' 3-4. Mingo is athletic enough to do so, but it will take work. We may not see Mingo in full force until 2014, as he adjusts to the pro game and outside linebacker. Yes, he will play this season and I bet he has some exhilarating moments, but it's still a period of adjustment.
There was Leon McFadden, the third-round pick. Started 45 games at San Diego State as a "island" cornerback, meaning he often was near the sideline covering one of the opponent's top receivers, knowing not much help was coming. That's the role he'll play with the Browns, who are desperate for someone to start across from Joe Haden.
After that, not much could immediately be seen. The fourth and fifth rounders were traded for third- and fourth-round picks in 2014. Fans will love those moves eventually, but on a team that is 23-57 in the last five years, it's hard to digest right now.
Sixth-rounder Jamoris Slaughter is recovering from Achilles surgery. He expects to be ready for July camp, but that's a nasty injury and takes time to heal. When it comes to Slaughter, 2014 may be a better indication of what the Notre Dame product can do.
Seventh-rounder Garrett Gilkey was on the field. The Chadron State product will need time to determine if he can become an offensive linemen. The other seventh-rounder, Armonty Bryant, has to prove he can stay out of trouble. While athletically blessed, Bryant played three years of Division II football. The speed, size and strength of the NFL will be an immediate shock to him and he will require intensive coaching on and off the field.
No quick fixes
For a worn down fan base, this is a discouraging draft because it offers so few immediate returns.
If Mingo struggles switching positions...
If the low-round picks don't pay off...
If the future picks are not used wisely in 2014...
Yes, this could turn into a mess.
But CEO Joe Banner and General Manager Mike Lombardi can correctly say that they aren't taking short cuts. They have guts enough to put what they know is an unpopular plan and count on it paying off in 2014 and 2015. The free agents they signed are primarily in their middle 20s, most have been healthy and should remain so for a few years -- when the team supposedly is set to make a move in 2014 and 2015.
Not at rookie camp is Josh Gordon, the potential game-breaker of a receiver who caught 50 passes last season. He was a supplemental pick in the 2012 draft, costing the Browns their 2013 second-rounder.
Also not present is veteran Davone Bess, who was added in an excellent draft-day deal. He's averaged 64 catches in the last five seasons and ranks No. 2 (behind Roddy White) in racking up first downs in that span. What a relief to know that when it's third-and-6, he can run an eight-yard pattern and catch the ball.
Put those two on the field, and it does look better.
Banner and Lombardi are aiming to take the team out of the five-year rut of 4-12 and 5-11 to something like 10-6 in a few seasons. They believe having six picks in the first four rounds of 2014 is a step in that direction. They are counting on defensive coordinator Ray Horton to transform Mingo into that elite pass rusher found on virtually every team that goes deep into the playoffs.
The right choice
While I didn't like the decision to defer the draft picks, it's commendable that they resisted the trap of drafting a quarterback. It made more sense to sign Jason Campbell as a backup, keep working with third-stringer Thad Lewis and move on.
The temptation for every new front office on a losing team is to add a new starting QB. The Browns decided to see if coach Rob Chudzinski and offensive coordinator Norv Turner can transform Brandon Weeden into an effective starter.
He's has the size and the powerful arm scouts want. But can he handle the pressure? Part of it will come from opposing defenses. The rest will come from an impatient fan base and media. The coaches will also demand that he learn a new offense and run it the right way.
The good news is the offense should accent Weeden's strengths. The best news is by midseason, we'll know if he is a viable starter.
Counting Gordon, there are 11 players on the roster from Tom Heckert's 2012 draft. At least four should start -- Trent Richardson, Mitchell Schwartz, Gordon and Weeden. Billy Winn and Travis Benjamin should play significant roles.
It's so hard to make immediate judgments on rookie classes, which is why I refuse to give letter grades to drafts. Consider the Browns have one player each from the drafts of 2006 (D'Qwell Jackson), 2007 (Joe Thomas), 2008 (Ahtyba Rubin) and 2009 (Alex Mack). Other players from those drafts are with other teams, but the Browns' harvest is thin.
When it comes to free agency, I like the signings of Paul Kruger, Desmond Bryant and Campbell. Quentin Groves and David Nelson may help. They traded for Dion Lewis, a third-down speed back who could surprise fans.
This draft -- who knows?
But I am glad that they at least have Gordon and Bess to show for it, even if they weren't on the field with the rookies this weekend.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Barring injury (or completely horrendous play early on), I think Weeden will have this year to prove he can be The Guy. Campbell is what he is and he'll never be a game-changer at this point in his career. If Weeds doesn't pan out, I think we'll be looking to move into whatever position we have to in the 2014 draft to get a QB. To me, that's a big part of the thinking behind trading out of picks this year for higher round picks next year. Stock up with ammo to move up if need be.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
Mingo really is impressing me...nothing can be more special than 3 words I hear spoken together. SPEED, FOOTBALL and PLAYER! From everything that I have seen so far is just that Wow factor that we got a special special player! Love the fact all are talking about his weight which means his long muscles are there cause he looks real skinny to them and yet he is 240 (or possibly 237 ) ummm stand next to a guy that is his size 240 he is not small. Taylor btw was mostly a DE n got over - OLB for Mingo is more destiny than a problem for transition.
Another thing that I love is that obviously we are looking for a Scat back to add into our Arsenal. So we signed Lewis from FA and adding Cook, Rouse n Haden. I do remember Rouse n he is a good football player. Haden I'm pretty sure BC is still one of the more NFL PRO Offense them n Stanford. Cook a local we know those will give their all to be a Brown.
Back to Mingo...for Grossi to compliment him that is pretty big. I liked where he reported he does NOT have toothpicks for legs. This kid is all muscle. I'm sure his workout regimen is pretty good as I've heard how strong he is. The key will be his diet. Increasing his Calories from good healthy food the weight gained (not water weight) will be all muscle
I think we released Barnes as well as a Punter? Barnes maybe didn't want to be here? Or didn't want to work hard? There is a reason why he has been an Under Achiever.
We are filling holes I don't care if we only had 5 draft picks...one with the Injury issues. Our UDFA seem to have speed n Game. Kids who can work hard - Push the young players we do have to become better...or even win a Roster spot or two!
So out of those 20 UDFA's I betcha we can sift out a rookie just as well as what would have been taken in the 4th and 5th rounds. We will lose nothing. Who cares who is ranked where by guys trying to rank 700 players. It is WHO we got n who has the heart to win a rare opportunity to make an NFL Team. at least 2 or more will rise to equal anything we would have picked up in those two rounds.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Does this mean that we have other guys who are better? Or that he simply wasn't nearly as good as we originally thought?
I know nothing about the guy.
I just saw some talk about this in the Draft Forum. (Edit)
I think Barnes was brought in as insurance for not getting a CB in the draft. We wanted one and the value fit the pick. He is a lesser player than Owens, the other CB we picked up pre-draft.
We have Haden, McFadden, Skrine, Owens, Bademosi and Wade. If McFadden starts on the outside(as I think he will after watching tape) we are very deep at the position. I suspect Bademosi to play his swing position as a safety to stay on the team. If McFadden proves a solid 5 second cover man we have a very deep and skilled set of CB's considering the scheme we run.
Quote: We have Haden, McFadden, Skrine, Owens, Bademosi and Wade. If McFadden starts on the outside(as I think he will after watching tape) we are very deep at the position.
Couldn't disagree more...deep? We still have the same problem we had last year and that is that we have NO backup to play on the outside and we're hoping that McFadden can play at the level of S.Brown last season (he was pretty good as teh no2 CB)...folks, that's not a given AT ALL. It's an unfair projection to McFadden as hardly any rookie can match Browns' play in his first season.
So, when was the last time the Browns had all of their 2 outside starting CBs for every snap? See...god forbid Haden or McFadden miss ANY time, we're back to see Skrine and/or Owens on the outside and both are PURE slot CBs
I said for the entire offseason that we needed to sign a solid, veteran CB for no2 CB and double that up with a mid round CB who can play both slot and outside...we only did the latter. Hopefully that conscious decision won't come back to haunt us
Another example where the decision to overload the pass rushing department at 6 overall despite already having Kruger, Sheard and Groves signed there, could be a sign of slavishly following a "blueprint" instead of treating each position with equal value
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
McFadden has impressed as a cover corner...but like much of our Youth Bademosi, Wade and Skrine they are all developing so yes it is hard to state Solid without seeing the end results But all are progressing n getting better not standing still or degressing.
Also I think our key acquisition was Owens. There were some questions that have been answered Banks just was a good prospect that was available n worth a looksee...we looked n didn't like what we saw.
I also read in another thread no need to go there - but you are missing the mark on Gipson. I know I have stated from day one in all discussion on our FS position especially in many draft threads. I had stated that I was very impressed with Gipson n that our Coaches I think are impressed with him as well. More n more that indeed seems to be the case. We have been impressed. Maybe you should review your tapes on Gipson - possibly you have made a mistake???
JMHO we don't have FINAL Closure but we have many numerous candidates that have shown improvements in their game to be included in the competition. We are solid with youthful talent. In a great place??? We'll have to find out
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
well first of all wallace verses mc fadden game one big loss for us. mingo saw this guy play against a bunch of lawyers and hotel managers no sacks. while I like the direction we are going how many teams are we going to get 14 points in front of? saw ray horton defense key to beat two tight ends two wrs run right at him I believe colin kapernick has 400 in offense against his defense that took 3 years to build..
Quote: well first of all wallace verses mc fadden game one big loss for us. mingo saw this guy play against a bunch of lawyers and hotel managers no sacks. while I like the direction we are going how many teams are we going to get 14 points in front of? saw ray horton defense key to beat two tight ends two wrs run right at him I believe colin kapernick has 400 in offense against his defense that took 3 years to build..
Quote: We have Haden, McFadden, Skrine, Owens, Bademosi and Wade. If McFadden starts on the outside(as I think he will after watching tape) we are very deep at the position.
Couldn't disagree more...deep? We still have the same problem we had last year and that is that we have NO backup to play on the outside and we're hoping that McFadden can play at the level of S.Brown last season (he was pretty good as teh no2 CB)...folks, that's not a given AT ALL.
Key word in my post was IF Django. We'll have to agree to disagree and I'll tell you why. If McFadden starts that means he has beaten Skrine out. I in no way said as we stand right now with no pads on that we're all set. But if McFadden beats out Skrine he should be ok in this system as a rookie.
McFadden has a very particular skill set. Also very different from Sheldon(doesn't fit the system at all really). This is all my opinion drawn from my experience and tape. McFadden will accel in quick coverage, effort and press. He will suffer in jump balls, getting off blocks and long plays(as does any CB really). He is not Joe but I believe he has blue chip ability in quick coverage and effort. Because of his effort he excels at press for his size. He has decent long speed but will get beat on deep passes against elite speed or height.
All that said I think people expect 5 Revis per team or they aren't happy. I don't get it. Joe is a top 5-10 CB. If Mcfadden beats out Skrine I think that means you can count on him being at least an average starter for a no2 in the league. Half the teams in the NFL don't have an average starter at no2 hence the term average! Not to mention he's young with upside. Skrine has the skill to be a top 10 nickle CB with flexibility to play outside if needed(obviously better suited as a nickle).
Most teams don't have 3 top 60 CBs on the roster. If McFadden beats out Skrine we do IMO. Especially in a system that emphasizes taking away seconds from QBs which greatly improves any CB.
On top of that you have 1 high potential developmental outside man in Wade. One experienced dime CB from a playoff team in Owens. As well as one of the best post year 1 undrafted prospects we've had since 99 in Bademosi.
Because of all of this I think IF McFadden is what I suspect(a system CB who will accel in what we ask him to do) and starts as a rook we have an above average trio with potential to only get better. You don't have to have the Jets or the Eagles 2012 big names in a system like this. One shut down and some role players is plenty. Stocking the front 7 will always be a priority. It is not madden.
Quote: Love the fact all are talking about his weight which means his long muscles are there cause he looks real skinny to them and yet he is 240 (or possibly 237 ) ummm stand next to a guy that is his size 240 he is not small. Taylor btw was mostly a DE n got over - OLB for Mingo is more destiny than a problem for transition.
I agree. Bulked up doesn't make you better. It just makes you bulked up and stiff IMO.
You know how I stand on this topic if you still have a memory.
I know one thing.....bulk and strength aren't synonymous.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Quote: j/c The key will be his diet. Increasing his Calories from good healthy food the weight gained (not water weight) will be all muscle
In one of the press conferences on the Browns site Mingo states that he gave up fast food this offseason. That's a start. Being a dietetics student I reaaaally don't want diet to hold him back.
Quote: mingo saw this guy play against a bunch of lawyers and hotel managers no sacks.
Must not have seen him against A&M and Bama when he faced Jake Matthews and DJ Fluker. The former is one of the top rated OTs in college, and the latter was a 1st round draft pick in thi past draft. 5 tackles, 1 sack, 1.5 tfl, and 2 passes defended, while also facing the TE most of the plays.
Quote: Is Barnes one of the two DB's we picked up early on in FA before the draft?
I seem to remember (and I admit I'm probably incorrect) that many on here look at those two pickups as ehh.. whatever.. kinda things..
My recollection is the same...Barnes and Owens were certainly not highly -touted in here. Depth guys and maybe a young guy(s) with experience who could get better.
I'm not disappointed in the cut...just found it interested that very little discussion went on about the cut given that Barnes was a CB.
Quote: You know how I stand on this topic if you still have a memory.
Not if it was a discussion and I was wrong
He's 6'4" 237 is very muscular - the fact he looks skinny to Bozos...pffft.
Grossi who would take any chance to make Lombardi look stupid...was impressed with the legs of Mingo being very muscular in his observation compared with skinny legs (Wimbley of our past n why Mangini got rid of Wimbley).
Not one tape or analysis of Mingo states that he gets over powered way too easy...actually most analysis are opposite - most are impressed with his Strength when viewing tape.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Quote: I agree. The weight isn't a issue. If he was 245 I doubt people would say anything.
I don't believe 8 lbs will make any measurable difference.
I agree there Peen..my bigger concern is if he will lose weight between now and the end of the season and would that create a problem.
It's a long, hot summer and a long, grueling season. If he loses 15 lbs during that period, then the 8 pound difference becomes 23 lbs...which still may not matter...but could hurt his overall strength.
Reasonabl concerns... but i woud wager given the heat of Lousiana he has lost a good deal of his " baby fat" (LOL) by now... I bet he won't lose much and will regain what he migt lose rather quickly.
) ummm stand next to a guy that is his size 240 he is not small. Taylor btw was mostly a DE n got over - OLB for Mingo is more destiny than a problem for transition.
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