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The short answer to your question is no.
But then I was never one to stop at the short answer. 
Let's talk about a few things that go into college debt that can be avoided if people are a little smarter....
1. Do your first two years at the community college or at least at a college where you can live at home so you don't have to borrow living expense money.
2. Get a job and use the money for something other than beer and spring break. It is possible to carry a 15 credit load and work 20-25 hours per week... use that money to help pay your college bills.
3. Be smart about picking a college based on your major. If you want to be an elementary school teacher, your earning power is fairly well defined... so don't go to Yale and rack up $100K in debt because you won't make enough to pay it back.
4. Be agressive in applying for grants (don't have to be paid back). Millions of dollars in grant money goes unclaimed every year because people just don't know what's out there or how to apply for it. It actually takes a lot of work to track these things down and apply.
5. If you get your undergrad degree and you are $50K in debt, go get a job and pay most of it off BEFORE you go back for a grad degree... unless your job requires it. Staying in school and racking up more debt simply because it's a tight job market and things are tough isn't very smart.
6. Don't acquire credit card debt while in college to support your social life because that will only compound your problem when you get out and combine it with your student loans. If you go to college with kids who have more money and they can afford to go to the bowl game or go to the beach for spring break and you can't afford it... then don't go.
7. And perhaps the most controversial... if you can't afford it, don't go to college right away or at all. Yes, you may come out and start at $10-15/hour at a job but if it's an actual "career" type job such as a tradesman within 4 years you can have achieved some certifications and you could be making a lot more than that. And the construction fields are starving for qualified tradesman. The construction industry and the IT industry seem like two pretty viable fields where a person can at least get a strong start before needing a college degree...
And for the record, I broke most of those rules during and after college and struggled a long time to pay off my debt... so I'm speaking from experience.
This is where my daughter is. Less than a year from graduating ( 4 yrs ) no student loans, lives at home, car paid off, works part time, 6000 in bank and will graduate with a job that pays about 60,000 the first year..did I mention she is the top of her class and already told by a professor he will recommend her for a job cause she is the best student he has ever had. Son graduates this year from high school as valedictorian just like his sister...
I'm posting this to say it is possible to do it without student loans....while all my daughters friends moved away to the big colleges and racked up the student loans my daughter stayed close to home... proud poppa here.... 
The Views Expressed By Me Are Not Necessarily The Views That You Will Agree With, I'm In My Own Little World But They Know Me Here.
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All I know is it took me 15 years to pay off my loans. Writing that last check was awesome.
I'm often asked if I want to go back to school to further my career. No way! I'm done owing that kind of money. Even with the increase pay, with intrerest, it would take me a nearly decade to get back what I spent. Not worth it.
Last edited by PortlandDawg; 05/14/13 12:23 PM.
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j/c
it's ridiculous to think that people are okay with signing up for paying for something and then getting it "forgiven"
anyways, I also think universities have a crazy cost structure. most schools charge the same amount to earn a Bachelor's in education as they do for pre-med, pre-law, and engineering. the actual earning power of the degree should be reflected on the price IMO.
also, it would be nice if universities didn't constantly tear down buildings, etc. and create costs that they then push into tuitions, which causes the prices to constantly rise at ridiculous rates.
#gmstrong
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Agree, most kids don't realize the security of jobs that are available without a college degree,
plumbing
electrician
machinist
etc.
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because we have told them you have to have a degree or you'll work at Wal-Mart or McDs.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Let's not forget salesman/woman . I have a good friend who never even finished High School who makes 100k plus year in year out selling plumbing supplies but he can literally sell ANYTHING to almost anyone.
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To say bluntly....NO!..they should not waive them. To be even more blunt, Not "everyone" should have access to a college education. Only those who can pay for it should be able to go to college. College degrees are worthless now because "everyone" has one...College degrees have lost a lot of their value because the market is flooded with them because everyone has one. The borrowing money to go to school should be done though a bank, not the government...the government should have nothing to do with loaning money for school. I paid for my own college education...i got very very veyr little help from my family. I worked full-time midnights 10pm-6 am and went to school 9am - 4 p.m 4 days a week. I still got by, paid for my education, and still got good grades...I made payments at the college office in 4 installments per quarter....I also worked a 2nd job on the weekends serving drinks for extra cash. So I didn't get to go to school "on the government dime" and party hard in a frat house, borrow a bunch of money, and have a good old dandy time...I actually had to work...and pay for my own....I only borrowed my last quarter of school, and i paid that off years ago.... I was also paying rent, and all the other bills that come with that too. it sounds cold, but college degrees are worthless because everyone has one....only those who can afford to pay the money (or borrow the money from a private bank) should be able to go to college....if you can't do the two above then you join the military and serve your time in return for money towards the education you want. The government making loans to every tom, dick, and harry and making education as assessible as a public water fountain has to be over...college degrees are nearly worthless because everyone has one..so some other method of qualifying for a trade field is going to have to come....to weed out the market. Apprenticeships will be the next big thing in the coming years for certain sectors...they won't care what worthless degree you have...if you don't have the apprenticeship, they are not interested...bring back the Skilled Trade Guilds from the old days! im all for it! 
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Quote:
Not "everyone" should have access to a college education.
Not everyone does .
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.if you can't do the two above then you join the military and serve your time in return for money towards the education you want.
If you can't do that due to factors outside of your control then what ? I don't disagree with some of the things you wrote but there is a big grey area that your absolutes don't cover .
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You do the same as everyone else on this planet.... you make the best of what you have to work with. If you want something, you work for it and you find a way to make it happen. You don't look at adversity and shrug your shoulders and say "eh, I can't do it".... you find a way to kick adversity in the nuts and do it anyway.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
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- There is a salary bubble created by this too. If everyone thinks the universities are spending their money wisely or are strapped for cash, look at some of the salaries of Ohio's public university professors on the Treasurer's website. I looked at the salary for my law school professors and I was completely shocked. Not sure if that's the case with all universities though, I must admit.
Not true just for your school -- but true just for your profession.
Look at what English Profs are making -- it's not close. At the professorial level, you have to pay something competitive with what private practice makes in their field. The crazy money law school profs are making is probably half of what they'd make if they went out and opened their own firm.
I don't want to get too far off topic, but that's just not true at all regarding the law professors.
Most attorneys who are in sole practitioner firms, let alone attorneys in Toledo, Ohio of all places, don't make what those profs were making. Also, some of those profs never practiced or did not spend many years practicing. A few I knew in particular made their way into teaching after getting their JDs and LLMs from Ivy League schools.
The ones that did practice probably worked in a mega firm where they did make decent money, but worked around 70-80 hrs/week. Law professors typically teach 2 1.5 hour classes/day, 4 days/week, and have one exam to grade at the end of the semester. So the hourly salary breakdown probably wouldn't be close.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Aww ! come on man you know that it isn't always that simple . Does it mean more when you fight harder for it ? You bet it does but truth is there are some hills that are just too tough to climb alone and there are people out there who deserve that help . Forgive all student loan debt kind of help ? No way but pulling yourself up by your bootstraps kind of thinking only work if you are lucky enough to have boots .
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I would love to take a poll in see how many of those responding have attended college in the past 5 years. Of course I want loan forgiveness purely selfish reasons. I am in law school probably graduating with over 130+k in debt. I knew and understood that when I signed up. My only hope is that people will stop going to law school and all those boomers will finally retire opening up the job market. With that said I actually agree with Elizabeth Warren. Quote:
WASHINGTON -- Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) unveiled her first bill Wednesday, designed to set student loan interest rates at the same level the Federal Reserve offers to big banks.
With some student loan rates set to double on July 1 -- from 3.4 percent to 6.8 percent -- Warren's bill would reduce student loan interest rates to 0.75 percent, opening the Fed's discount window to students.
"Every single day, this country invests in big banks by lending them money at near-zero rates," Warren told The Huffington Post. "We should make the same kind of investment lending money to students, who are trying to get an education."
The freshman senator said she plans to mobilize students -- those most affected by student loans -- to help get the bill through the Senate. "This is about their lives and if they are active in this fight, we can make this change," Warren said.
The Fed justifies loaning money essentially for free to major banks so they can maintain liquidity during emergencies. But Warren noted that student loan debt also affects the economy. Research by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, reported by Washington Post's Wonkblog, found that the amount of student loan debt of Americans under the age of 25 has doubled in less than a decade, from $10,649 in 2003 to $20,326 in 2012. Along with this increase in student debt comes a decrease in the likelihood someone will take out an auto loan or a home mortgage. That burden is a drag on the economy.
Warren pointed to the GI Bill and National Defense Education Act loans, which funded her education. "It wasn't just soldiers that got the education, it was the whole economy that benefitted from that investment," Warren said. "Why not give students a break? Why not let them in on the same great deal that the big banks get?"
According to the Project on Student Debt, college students who graduated in 2011 owed more than $26,000 in student loans, which Warren said is, "crushing our young."
Warren ran for Senate promising to fight against an economic system she described as "rigged" in favor of big business. She said her legislation is intended to raise questions about why banks get a dramatically subsidized loan rate and what can be done to reduce debt burdens for students and consumers. The simple answer -- that the Fed could subsidize students instead of banks -- is an uncomfortable one and goes to a core inequality at the heart of the financial system.
Robert L. Borosage, co-director of the Campaign for America’s Future, a progressive public policy think tank, in endorsing Warren's bill, said in a press release that "Instead of kicking students when they are down, we should end the student debt crisis."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/elizabeth-warren-student-loans_n_3240407.html
Go Browns!!![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
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Legend
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Quote:
Aww ! come on man you know that it isn't always that simple . Does it mean more when you fight harder for it ? You bet it does but truth is there are some hills that are just too tough to climb alone and there are people out there who deserve that help . Forgive all student loan debt kind of help ? No way but pulling yourself up by your bootstraps kind of thinking only work if you are lucky enough to have boots .
Yes, it is that simple.
Does that mean that not everybody will go to college? Absofreakinglutely. Life Happens, and how it happens is up to you.
Some people will get shafted simply because their parents didn't make education the priority for their kids taht they should have, or because the kid didn't give it the energy he/she should have.. and in plenty of cases it will simply be because they just flat out aren't that bright. In EVERY case, though, it is up to the individual to make the most of what they have to work with. Put more value on improving yourself than you do cars, or clothes, or clubs... and eschew that stuff and take your free time to better yourself so that you can get a better job that pays better and has better benefits.
For some people, that will mean rising to a seven-figure salary, for others, that may mean a lifetime of fast food work. It will NOT be equal. And some people at both ends of that extreme will be people from both ends of the "privilege" spectrum. Some people won't work that hard and will hit it big, others will toil for a lifetime and just seemingly spin their wheels, but if you look close enough both results will be a result of choices they've made - and perhaps some luck. Life Happens, it will NOT be equal. You do the best you can with what you have to improve what you have, and then you do the best you can with that to again improve what you have... and you stop when you're comfortable.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Legend
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Quote:
To say bluntly....NO!..they should not waive them.
To be even more blunt, Not "everyone" should have access to a college education. Only those who can pay for it should be able to go to college. College degrees are worthless now because "everyone" has one...College degrees have lost a lot of their value because the market is flooded with them because everyone has one.
The borrowing money to go to school should be done though a bank, not the government...the government should have nothing to do with loaning money for school.
I paid for my own college education...i got very very veyr little help from my family. I worked full-time midnights 10pm-6 am and went to school 9am - 4 p.m 4 days a week.
I still got by, paid for my education, and still got good grades...I made payments at the college office in 4 installments per quarter....I also worked a 2nd job on the weekends serving drinks for extra cash.
So I didn't get to go to school "on the government dime" and party hard in a frat house, borrow a bunch of money, and have a good old dandy time...I actually had to work...and pay for my own....I only borrowed my last quarter of school, and i paid that off years ago....
I was also paying rent, and all the other bills that come with that too.
it sounds cold, but college degrees are worthless because everyone has one....only those who can afford to pay the money (or borrow the money from a private bank) should be able to go to college....if you can't do the two above then you join the military and serve your time in return for money towards the education you want.
The government making loans to every tom, dick, and harry and making education as assessible as a public water fountain has to be over...college degrees are nearly worthless because everyone has one..so some other method of qualifying for a trade field is going to have to come....to weed out the market.
Apprenticeships will be the next big thing in the coming years for certain sectors...they won't care what worthless degree you have...if you don't have the apprenticeship, they are not interested...bring back the Skilled Trade Guilds from the old days! im all for it!
Can you tell me why degree's are worthless? I think I missed it. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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All Pro
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j/c
We pay to bail out banks, the auto industry, and we support the energy industry and farming, why not let the little people get some of their dollars back.
That's coming from a school teacher who is one of the Obama faithful. (j/  c)
GO BROWNS!
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I don't know if you are kidding. But I am exactly that. A guy who took out student loans to fund a masters degree in special education. -Talk about regret- I brought up the topic on student loans because so many of my friends, in various career fields, have acquired a boatload of student loan debt. One of my friends earned his masters in internet technology, and he has several certifications, he borrowed over 110K. However, he could care less. He pays what he can and moves on. He's single, no children, and very happy. He's not worried about his loan debt at all. I guess that's because he likes his job a lot.. Anyway, here's an interesting article. http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/03/30/student-loan-nightmare-help-wanted/11:45 AM ET Student Loan Nightmare: Help Wanted Program Note: Tune in tonight to hear Randi Kaye talk to Samantha Hillstrom on AC360° at 10 p.m. ET. CNN Production Assistant, Samantha Hillstrom, at her graduation in May 2007. Samantha Hillstrom CNN Production Assistant I’m about to talk about two little words that make most people cringe. The mere mention of these words usually incites the same reaction in everyone: a) fear b) denial c) a throbbing headache and d) the desire to run away screaming and crying and begging to go to a “happy place.” Yes, I am talking about STUDENT LOANS. If you don’t have one, you know someone who does and you sympathize with them. In the midst of the credit crisis, home foreclosures and bailout turmoil, the amount of debt that graduates are facing is overwhelming. I am 23-years-old, two years out of college and I am sitting on $115,000 of student debt. And based on my lender's loan terms, I only have roughly 12 years to pay it off. How much does that make my monthly payment, you ask? A whopping $1,200 a month. And let’s just say my lifelong dream career in television doesn’t lend itself to that. The only option my bank is giving me is to go on “graduated repayment plan.” That means that for four years I will only be paying off the interest every month. How much is that? Well, $115,000 with interest rates between 4-8%... that’s about $600 a month and that doesn’t even touch the principal amount. People don’t pay off houses in 12 years and I am expected to pay off this student loan in an entry level position? Some might say, “Sam, you shouldn’t have gone to a private school in New York City if you wouldn’t be able to pay it off.” Well, I made a lot of mistakes when signing up for my loans, but I was uneducated on the process and on the repayment and now I’m stuck. I share the same anxiety as the families struggling to pay their mortgages. How was I ever to expect the financial crisis that was going to happen and where can I get some help? And why do I have such a short amount of time to pay off my loans? Because of the current financial crisis. Due to the economic downturn, my lender isn’t consolidating loans. If I were able to consolidate, my repayment time would extend to 30 years…just like a home mortgage. Now that wouldn't necessarily solve the problem, in that I would still owe more than $500 a month with the principal and interest, but it would buy me a bit more time and stretches out the money. Here is my question: why aren’t student loans receiving the same attention, same care and forgiveness as every other loan in America? I have to say that I am lucky to have a job right now and was especially lucky to get a job right out of college. Can you imagine what kind of pressure and stress the 2009 graduates are feeling in this time of uncertainty? Veterans of the workforce can’t find work right now. What about the recent college grads with no work experience and tens of thousands of dollars of unforgivable debt underneath them? There is a grain of hope that will come when the Income-Based Repayment Plan, part of the College Cost Reduction and Access Act of 2007, will take effect on July 1. The program will cap off borrower’s monthly payments at 10% of their gross income for 25 years with the rest of the debt being forgiven. However, that only applies to federal loans (which is only one of my four loans). According to the Federal Education Department, in 2009, the amount of outstanding federal student loans is $544 billion, up $42 billion from last year. Where is our bailout? Where are our options? The default rate on student loans this year is already at 6.9%. That’s a 13% increase from last year. Recently, Rev. Jesse Jackson started a campaign called “Reduce the Rate” urging the Obama administration to reduce the interest rates of student loans to 1%....the same amount of interest the banks are getting. Jackson’s plan proposes the following… Reduce the interest rate on all student loans to 1%. If banks can borrow at 1% or less, then so should our students. Extend the grace period before loan repayment begins from 6 months to 18 months for students who graduate. In these tough economic times, it takes a college graduate an average of 6 months to 1 year to find a job. The rules should reflect this reality. End the penalties assessed to schools for student loan defaults. Schools should not be held accountable for students who don’t pay back their loans. Increase Pell Grants to cover the average yearly cost of a public 4 year institution instead of the amounts in the current stimulus package–$5,350 starting July 1 and $5,550 in 2010-2011 Source: Reducetherate.org I chose to go to a private school and I chose to work in a field where the starting salaries are low. Does that mean that I chose to live a life of struggle, wondering how I am going to pay my rent, afford the basics of living and still stay in my chosen career field…all while putting up with high interest rates and an amount of debt that brings me to tears?
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Some key points in the article that outline what I call "bad choices". Quote:
Some might say, “Sam, you shouldn’t have gone to a private school in New York City if you wouldn’t be able to pay it off.”
Are people really that brain dead, even at 18? Where are the parents to tell them that this isn't a good idea? Not that they'll listen, and if they don't, I have no pity. This kind of stuff drives me nuts.
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Well, I made a lot of mistakes when signing up for my loans, but I was uneducated on the process and on the repayment and now I’m stuck
And that is the fault of? Look in the mirror. Again, where are the parents of these young people to guide them? And if they were guided and didn't listen, no pity from me.
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I chose to go to a private school and I chose to work in a field where the starting salaries are low.
Well, to me those aren't good choices. Now you are going to complain? Suck it up and learn from it.
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Does that mean that I chose to live a life of struggle, wondering how I am going to pay my rent, afford the basics of living and still stay in my chosen career field…all while putting up with high interest rates and an amount of debt that brings me to tears?
The simple answer is YES! 
I went to 4 years of school and because of good planning and advice from my wonderful parents I had no debt when I graduated other than a self inflicted credit card that was all my doing. I had a good summer job (union laborer doing road construction on a concrete crew - if that doesn't keep you in school I don't know what would!) that helped foot the bill along with some additional funds from my parents. As soon as my son was born I started putting money into a 503b to pay for college. I've put a minimum of 2k per year into this since he was born as I know that by the time he reaches college age the prices will be absurd. But if he chooses to go to a private school I'm NOT making up the difference that an in-state Ohio public college would cost. There is no reason to spend the outrageous tuition fees at private institutions IMO.
edit
Now, I will say I wouldn't have a problem with giving a very, very low interest rate for these loans such as what was proposed in this article. But forgiving the loans? No. That being said, I do have a bad feeling that student loans are going to be the next "housing crisis" of loan default so in the end they will be forgiven anyhow.
Last edited by columbusdawg; 05/14/13 09:08 PM.
#gmstrong
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Only thing I'd say about the outrageous "private" college tuitions is, generally, private colleges offer more financial aid. I base this only on what "we" experienced with my son, 6 years ago.
He went to Capital U in Columbus for not a whole lot more than it would've cost him to attend Toledo. Cap had/has a very good nursing program. My son got a "presidential" scholarship, which amounted to half of his tuition. We did have to pay room and board for his first year.
However, prior to his second year, he approached me with the idea of living off campus. Knowing me (and what I was like at his age), I said "no way". Until he put the numbers down on paper. Split a house with 3 others......here's the rent, the gas, etc. Throw in X amount for food.......and compare that to living on campus and paying room and board.............
Whoa.....I was amazed at the savings. I agreed to it, absolutely. Plus, like I said, he got half his tuition paid for, he got $2000 a year from a local lutheran church from a fund set up by a retired teacher that went to "any AHS grad attending a lutheran school, with preference made to those attending Capital".....even though we didn't and don't attend that church.
He got $900 a year from our church from a fund set up by a deceased member (nurse) for anyone from our congregation that went into nursing.....plus, he got other scholarships as well.
Don't get me wrong, he still has student loans. And had he decided to major in art, or history, or some field that wasn't as conducive to employment after graduation.......well, that would be a different story.
He's got bills -loan bills. (I'm a bad dad, and didn't save enough to pay for his college. Made it through the first year almost debt free......but after that, it was loans) But, he's also in a profession, and has a job, that allow him to live decently, AND pay his loans, even at the interest rates they are charging.
Now, should they forgive his loans? Heck no. Not his, or anyone else's. If they reduced the interest rate, that would be just fine with me. But, it's not my call.
Had my son decided to get a BA in "college studies".......no way in heck he'd have gone where he did. Not with my support anyway.
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Practice Squad
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Quote:
Student loan debt is over a trillion dollars and counting. Many Americans grow up in large families, with parents who made just enough to get by. When it came time for college, these people had a choice: go to college and "make something of themselves" or take a job that paid 10-15$ an hour working in the service industry.
Get the money from PUBLIC college / University endowment funds, professor / administrators' retirement funds, current tuition, public school teachers, retired & current politicians. They are the ones who perpetrated the scam and who are currently participating.
Idiots who went to college for 90% of the degrees offered were total fools.
This was a scam perpetrated by the education / media complex.
These jerks have no right to the paychecks of anyone.
No one can just 'forgive' debt. Someone has to pay the bill.
If you're a college student, you have NO right to anyone else's paycheck just because you think you're noble for wasting 4+ years in college for a degree that has no useful purpose. 
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I see where you're coming from CD. Always good stuff from you.
I guess the whole situation with not being able to discharge student loans through bankruptcy confuses me. I keep talking about my friends, but I can assure all of you what I am writing is true. My friend is married to a roofer. Between them they have 4 children. A few years ago, when the market tanked, they turned to their credit cards for support. After a few years, they ran up their credit card debt over 60,000 - OUCH!. These people live in Cleveland, and homeschool their children, from what I could tell, they live modestly. Eventually, they realized that their credit card debt was insurmountable. They declared bankruptcy on the debt, but were able to keep their house and their cars. The only penalty was that they had to give up their tax return for 1 year (and their credit was shot of course).
I could go on and on about businessmen that declare corporate bankruptcy and screw over taxpayers, employees, and on and on.... but you get my drift. I understand why many people loathe the thought of loans getting forgiven, but I'm confused as to why student loan debt is the one particular debt that cannot be discharged through bankruptcy. - This question coming from a guy who has never missed a mortgage payment, never missed a car payment and hasn't missed a credit card payment in over 14 years.
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I see where you're coming from CD. Always good stuff from you.
I guess the whole situation with not being able to discharge student loans through bankruptcy confuses me. I keep talking about my friends, but I can assure all of you what I am writing is true. My friend is married to a roofer. Between them they have 4 children. A few years ago, when the market tanked, they turned to their credit cards for support. After a few years, they ran up their credit card debt over 60,000 - OUCH!. These people live in Cleveland, and homeschool their children, from what I could tell, they live modestly. Eventually, they realized that their credit card debt was insurmountable. They declared bankruptcy on the debt, but were able to keep their house and their cars. The only penalty was that they had to give up their tax return for 1 year (and their credit was shot of course).
I believe you about all of the situations of your friends. I too have friends that have ridiculous credit card debt, houses they should have never bought, etc. I once upon a time made some very bad decisions with credit cards. I finally realized my bad choices and made it my mission in life to pay them off. I did and now my only debt is my mortgage and a car payment. If your friends racked up 60k in credit card debt they made some bad choices, and that they can just forego it via bankruptcy isn't fair to all of the people that do pay their debts.
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I could go on and on about businessmen that declare corporate bankruptcy and screw over taxpayers, employees, and on and on.... but you get my drift. I understand why many people loathe the thought of loans getting forgiven, but I'm confused as to why student loan debt is the one particular debt that cannot be discharged through bankruptcy. - This question coming from a guy who has never missed a mortgage payment, never missed a car payment and hasn't missed a credit card payment in over 14 years.
I agree with the aspect of businesses being able to declarer bankruptcy and throw the burden back on taxpayers. That is wrong in many, many ways and a whole other discussion.
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Only thing I'd say about the outrageous "private" college tuitions is, generally, private colleges offer more financial aid. I base this only on what "we" experienced with my son, 6 years ago.
Is that financial aid in the form of grants or in the form of loans? I have no problem with private colleges; my ex-wife worked at several (Wittenberg and the Pontifical College Josephium) and they were great schools with outrageous tuition. I would have no problem with my son going to one if the costs ended up being in-line with a public institution because of grants, scholarships, etc. I know Wittenberg was 20k+ per year for tuition alone when my ex-wife worked there 5 years ago. That's 80k before room, board, books, meals, etc. Ouch!
#gmstrong
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As far as financial aid from private colleges, it's scholarships. It is NOT loans. (at least what I was talking about in my specific example with my son. I can't speak for other schools........well, a couple........but it's beside the very limited point I was making.)
Private schools generally have more grants or scholarships available than do public schools. In MY experience. It doesn't necessarily make them cheaper than public schools, it just makes them more affordable than what the "list" price says.
And yes, his presidential scholarship was not just "given", it was earned. It cost me a day and a half away from home, a flat tire repair on the way to Columbus on a Friday night, a hotel room that, when we finally got there, we had no choice but to go to sleep (no beer drinking for me, didn't even turn the t.v. on), and an early morning "get up", and half a day sitting while he was testing.
Was it worth it? Yes. Half his tuition ended up being taken care of!
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Most attorneys who are in sole practitioner firms, let alone attorneys in Toledo, Ohio of all places, don't make what those profs were making. Also, some of those profs never practiced or did not spend many years practicing. A few I knew in particular made their way into teaching after getting their JDs and LLMs from Ivy League schools.
The ones that did practice probably worked in a mega firm where they did make decent money, but worked around 70-80 hrs/week. Law professors typically teach 2 1.5 hour classes/day, 4 days/week, and have one exam to grade at the end of the semester. So the hourly salary breakdown probably wouldn't be close.
Three Points:
1.) Law Professors at UToledo would not otherwise be practicing in Toledo Ohio.
2.) Top Ivy League Grads (the type that go quickly into academia) - could easily get 150k starting jobs at the top law firms. From what I understand, most usually do before transiting back to academia.
3.) Teaching is not a large component of what most profs spend their time on.
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J/C
My sister went to school for 7 years working on becoming a Dr. Then she decided she couldnt handle it, went and became a physicians assistant. She has over 400k in student loan debt and makes just under 60k a year. Why should the tax payers burden her bad decision?
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Most attorneys who are in sole practitioner firms, let alone attorneys in Toledo, Ohio of all places, don't make what those profs were making. Also, some of those profs never practiced or did not spend many years practicing. A few I knew in particular made their way into teaching after getting their JDs and LLMs from Ivy League schools.
The ones that did practice probably worked in a mega firm where they did make decent money, but worked around 70-80 hrs/week. Law professors typically teach 2 1.5 hour classes/day, 4 days/week, and have one exam to grade at the end of the semester. So the hourly salary breakdown probably wouldn't be close.
Three Points:
1.) Law Professors at UToledo would not otherwise be practicing in Toledo Ohio.
2.) Top Ivy League Grads (the type that go quickly into academia) - could easily get 150k starting jobs at the top law firms. From what I understand, most usually do before transiting back to academia.
3.) Teaching is not a large component of what most profs spend their time on.
1. That's fine. Make sure you account for the cost of living differences when they move elsewhere. $150K in Toledo >>> $150K in a big city where it's more competitive. The work hour adjustment is also going to jump a great deal.
2. It's not even guaranteed any more. Even the top grads at top schools are struggling much more than they used to. Other times, many professors don't even have practicing experience. Some transition right into academia for instance if they have a well-published law review article. But assuming your point, there is a HUGE disparity (I can't even put it into words) between the workload difference of an associate in a mega firm and the workload of a professor. I used to work in a "Big Law" environment. I've told my tales on here of how much it sucked. My first day at work, I was told there was a pillow in one of my desk drawers just in case I needed to stay over night and I got tired.
3. That may be so, but if the profs I had even reached 40 hrs of work/week, I would have been absolutely astounded.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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- I agree with A2D for once. I think the feds need to stop giving out loans, at least at the rate or in the amount they're giving them out. Tuition is at an all time high because universities know the feds will pay for it and don't care if students can't pay back the feds.
This is pretty much how the housing bubble happened... houses were built, bought, and sold and lenders, builders, realtors and homeowners were making a fortune and nobody really cared how much any of it cost because all of the loans were underwritten by the government.. until it became unsustainable. The same thing is happening with the cost of higher education... only to question the need or the methods of higher education in this country amounts to heresy..
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If everyone thinks the universities are spending their money wisely or are strapped for cash, look at some of the salaries of Ohio's public university professors on the Treasurer's website. I looked at the salary for my law school professors and I was completely shocked. Not sure if that's the case with all universities though, I must admit.
I'm not sure what those numbers are but assuming many of those professors are lawyers themselves, if you want to attract good teachers you have to pay them comparable to what they could make in the private sector. I have less of an issue with paying professors well.
I do a lot of work on college campuses and I can tell you that the biggest problem is this feeling of "competition" between universities. Basically the difference between what a university "needs" and what it "wants" and how much they are willing to spend to attract the best students, compete with other universities and generally just make a name for themselves.
NC State just finished the Hunt Library project... $95 million for construction of a 221,000 sf building. For those good at math, that's over $400/sf.... which is astronomically high for any type of educational or commercial building. I could get into why it's so freaking expensive if anybody cares.
Not to mention, when I went to college, I lived in a room... a 14'x12' room with another guy and a group bathroom at the end of the hall... now everything is a suite with private kitchens, private bathrooms, your own room, soft furniture in the lounge areas, etc... Also finished a project at UNC Charlotte helping them relocate 5 of their 12 artificial turf intramural sports fields to make way for a new building... hate to do the "when I was young" thing all the time, but we played intramural sports in a glorified cow pasture. Let's just say that a lot of the things I see colleges building and putting in their facilities seem to me to be totally unnecessary to meet their primary objective of providing an education.
yebat' Putin
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There are several ways a student can have student loan debt forgiven already.
For example, a new teacher can teach in an under-performing school on a list the government provides. (usually inner city) A medical student can have some debt forgiven by working in a free clinic. There are many other similar programs out there for different disciplines.
I do agree that there are ways to arrive at a win-win though.
I didn't realize those programs already existed,, I love the idea that if the government is willing to forgive debt, that you have to basically work it off in some manner.
Like you say, I think it's a win win.
For me, it's been so long,, I didn't have much debt at all coming out of school so it wasn't a big deal. I mean when I went, the tuition for the year wasn't much more than 4500 or so and that included books. And I sold the books back so I even got some of that back. I worked full time and went to school full time.
But when done, I think my total debt was under 3k and it was too my father and he forgave it because my grades were better than he expected. LOL He really wasn't expecting much so that was kinda easy LOL
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If they would allow me to withdraw from my 401k exempt free to apply it to my student loans I would be happy. It's my money and the only thing negative towards the taxpayers is I didn't pay taxes on that money. I don't need a bail out.
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If they would allow me to withdraw from my 401k exempt free to apply it to my student loans I would be happy. It's my money and the only thing negative towards the taxpayers is I didn't pay taxes on that money. I don't need a bail out.
Good for you, I'd assume that not everyone is in that boat however.
Anyway, I'm not in favor of just forgiving the debt either.
#GMSTRONG
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Anyway, I'm not in favor of just forgiving the debt either.
Nor am I... because "forgive the debt" is a total misrepresentation of what is happening... let's call it what it is.. "Somebody else is paying for your college education"..
College loans should be treated as other loans... they should be given based on the ability of the person to pay them back. Now I'm not talking about people with just good credit or a program that benefits on the "haves" and excludes the "have nots"... I'm talking about an application where you are required to provide a little more than proof that you have actually been accepted to some college somewhere to study some thing....
I can see the review process... "Says here that you will likely need to borrow $25/year for four years to attend Brown University and that your goal is to become a middle school gym teacher?" "Yes sir" "DENIED"
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Not to mention, when I went to college, I lived in a room... a 14'x12' room with another guy and a group bathroom at the end of the hall... now everything is a suite with private kitchens, private bathrooms, your own room, soft furniture in the lounge areas, etc... Also finished a project at UNC Charlotte helping them relocate 5 of their 12 artificial turf intramural sports fields to make way for a new building... hate to do the "when I was young" thing all the time, but we played intramural sports in a glorified cow pasture. Let's just say that a lot of the things I see colleges building and putting in their facilities seem to me to be totally unnecessary to meet their primary objective of providing an education.
Agreed.
And I question the whole "....primary objective is to provide an education", thing. Yes, that is the primary objective.......but just a smidge behind that is "get more students, that pay more money."
College/university education has become a business first, and an educational experience second.
And every school thinks "well, if we get rid of dorms, and make condo's, we can keep up with the school across town, across the state, across the country." It's becoming a "keep up with the Jones' type thing. And who pays for it?
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Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with paying professors well in comparison/competition to other universities. I'm not making any mention of this to knock the professors themselves, some of whom I actually consider friends now.
I just think that their salaries, at least in UT's case, have become a microcosm and a demonstration of schools being able to spend almost irresponsibly due to the high cost of tuition, which is fueled by the government guaranteed loans at the expense of the students.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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And I question the whole "....primary objective is to provide an education", thing. Yes, that is the primary objective.......but just a smidge behind that is "get more students, that pay more money."
Many moons ago, the objective of a college was to educate students in a well rounded way and there weren't really that many different majors to choose from and different schools specialized in different things. The thought was to get you well rounded and then when you got into the workforce you would learn what you needed for that specific job...
Then it became more about getting them a specific skill set to get them started on a path toward a career and they started adding very specific majors and every college wanted to be all things to all students. The thought was that you should be able to hit the ground running with an employer...
Now it's kind of hard to define.. but it is very much about where you rank on the various Forbes' lists of "Best colleges ...." ... and it has definitely become much more about pampering students in an effort to attract the best students, the wealthiest students, etc ... I've actually talked to some science and engineering folks who had to adapt to whole new ways of working when they got out of college because the college had all of the latest and greatest tools and software, well beyond what most employers have.
but I'm not going to complain too loudly, they give us an awful lot of work.
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The college system in the US is broken.
Companies screen candidates for degrees because they aren't allowed to formally test for intelligence.
If you did away with that one law you'd fix a lot of what is wrong with our society as it relates to the 18-25 year old demographic.
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The college system in the US is broken.
Companies screen candidates for degrees because they aren't allowed to formally test for intelligence.
If you did away with that one law you'd fix a lot of what is wrong with our society as it relates to the 18-25 year old demographic.
I'm not sure if you are showing cause/effect there but the hiring laws aren't the reason the college system is broken.
We interview an awful lot of engineering grads and an intelligence test would do us little good. As long as your grades are decent... say over a 3.0... we will consider you. After that it becomes about a comfort level with whether or not you seem like the kind of person I want to spend 10 hours a day, 5 days a week working with... that and trying to figure out your own level of motivation and responsibility.... We hire more 3.2 GPA students than 3.9 GPA students...
yebat' Putin
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My point is that for most companies having an undergraduate degree requirement is simply a proxy for smart person who attained a goal.
This does not apply to a field like engineering or architecture or accounting or other where the university setting to learn the field makes absolute sense.
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And to take it one step further....
I think both companies and employees could benefit...
Say a program where the pay was fairly minor but the employee learned a great deal and was a valuable asset to the company.
Thus income and no student debt vs. partying till you drop, eventually getting a degree in liberal studies and having 100k in student loans weighing things down.
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I always wondered ways we could retool our education system outside of the box. I haven't thought his one through, so I'm sure there are plenty of flaws with it (and people on this board love jumping on flaws ). But I often wonder if it might be possible for some private companies to take kind of a "military style" to education. Tax write-offs might be a good incentive to do it. For instance, X Company could sponsor X amount of promising high school students to get a college degree. In turn, the college students would get a free education provided they work for X company for 5 years. Again, just throwing ideas out there, but I do think there is probably a better way out there somewhere.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I always wondered ways we could retool our education system outside of the box. I haven't thought his one through, so I'm sure there are plenty of flaws with it (and people on this board love jumping on flaws ).
But I often wonder if it might be possible for some private companies to take kind of a "military style" to education. Tax write-offs might be a good incentive to do it.
For instance, X Company could sponsor X amount of promising high school students to get a college degree. In turn, the college students would get a free education provided they work for X company for 5 years.
Again, just throwing ideas out there, but I do think there is probably a better way out there somewhere.
I know of several companies that did ths in the past. One of my good friends worked for a company that paid her tuition back in the early 90s. She worked 40+ hours per week for them and took a fairly large class load, but her employer paid for all tuition and books.
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