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If Horton gets a head coaching job that means our defense played well. That is not something to worry about.
Luckily we probably don't have to worry about our offensive coordinator getting a head coaching job any time soon.
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Is it just me or is worrying about a defensive coordinator leaving to be head coach and then taking his assistant to be his defensive coordinator exactly two steps ahead of what is appropriate at this point?
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We would have to give him permission to leave.
That and at some point all students want to get out from under the wings of their mentor.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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On paper...
Our pass rush needs to be very disruptive, or we're going to get thrown on all year long. The cupboard is pretty bare back there.
Rome wasn't built in a day, so I'm not all that concerned. But it could get ugly if we don't effectively get to the QB.
Well, we could do what other teams w/one excellent corner do. We could roll our deep coverage to that side and leave Joe Haden pretty much on an island.
This is interesting, because there is a lot of talk on the boards about how Haden is maybe the best cb in the game, a top 3 corner, a top 5 corner, etc. I think he is a good player, but he hasn't reached elite status yet.
From what I've seen of his coverage abilities, you can't roll your coverages to help the 2nd corner and feel good about Haden on an island. It would be nice if he steps-up and becomes that guy, though. He was the 7th pick in the draft.
Perhaps this is what Horton was referring to when he was talking about Haden earlier this year???
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Well, we could do what other teams w/one excellent corner do. We could roll our deep coverage to that side and leave Joe Haden pretty much on an island.
This is interesting, because there is a lot of talk on the boards about how Haden is maybe the best cb in the game, a top 3 corner, a top 5 corner, etc. I think he is a good player, but he hasn't reached elite status yet.
From what I've seen of his coverage abilities, you can't roll your coverages to help the 2nd corner and feel good about Haden on an island. It would be nice if he steps-up and becomes that guy, though. He was the 7th pick in the draft.
Perhaps this is what Horton was referring to when he was talking about Haden earlier this year???
Haden has improved his game each year. This is his fourth year. Next season is the last year in his contract. I'm thinking we will see his best. If you can't put him on the island, Browns need to look at drafting another top corner. I think Haden can be that guy. Horton's attack defense should help too.
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I am not saying he is a bad corner. I am saying that the Browns have never attempted that w/him.
There was an interesting stat a couple of years ago. It listed how many times each cb was targeted and how many completions they gave up. This was the same year where almost everyone was saying how great Haden was and that Sheldon Brown sucked. Well, both players were targeted almost the exact number of times and Brown actually gave up fewer completions. Not many, both players were statistically similar.
I always had this feeling about the two of them: Brown wasn't as bad as people claimed and Haden wasn't as good as they claimed.
Thus far, he has not shown he can play on an island. It would be great if he steps his game up, because we might really need him to do that w/the inexperience we have at the other cb position.
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I can't expect all to agree with me - but just to let you know my logic behind things n it is from years of evolving after looking at drafts.
1. I can care less assessing slotting - I can care less if Trent took extra picks to move up to get. I don't assess him from that. Once he is a Brown I can care less how he got here. I judge on what he does. Same thing last year on Schwartz n Hughes...so much was made in criticism of the draft on slotting...What the HECK do I care about slotting when they are actually playing WELL that is the important thing to me!
2. Now you state:
" i liked mingo as a trade down prospect but no way no how at 6"
I can care less what you or any other dawg has him slotted at. Don't take that as an insult. I can care less what any draft sight or talking head states they have Mingo at. I mentioned how my opinion evolved...well a lot of this evolved from another WEAK draft class in 05 we had #3 n picked BE  But the real PICK for us should have been MERRIMAN (my personal choice) or WARE for our new venture into a 3-4 defense. But I was told over n over. Those guys were slotted around 12-15 n the same thing you are stating in the above quote.
Here we are in another weak draft class. Here we are again shifting from a 4-3 D to a 3-4: Man I am so glad we didn't go for a WR. We did it RIGHT!!! My whole premise of pimping Merriman was that it was so so important to draft a stud OLB to build a 3-4 D around! Its the key position to the 3-4! This time we Did it RIGHT!!! What do I care if Mingo was slotted at 10 that is Draftnick stuff it has nothing to do with REAL FOOTBALL BOARDS. Especially now after the draft more n more we learn that Jordan, Ziggy n Mingo were 3 in a class by themselves then there was a major drop off!
This was a weak class. I mean one QB n NO RBs taken in the first. WRs none in the top 10??? When did the speed kid go from WV? You got LTs, Pass rushers n CBs as the key positions after QB...if you notice they went.
So its pretty meaningless when I hear - I like the pick but not at #6! pfft what do I care as long as he is a stud. There is no assurance that he would have been available 10 or later? More than likely REAL NFL SCOUTS not pretend ones had him high on their boards n when 2 of the 3 top pass rushers went in the first 5 picks. That last of the 3 has big value...just like if 2 of the top Left Tackles get taken that 3rd has more value...oddly those were the 5 picks before us. All 3 LTs and 2of the 3 Pass Rushers. When you think of it - very logical n what benefits our team the most!
JMHO but I can care less HOW MUCH...once they are here its one thing only HOW GOOD!!! 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I am not saying he is a bad corner. I am saying that the Browns have never attempted that w/him.
There was an interesting stat a couple of years ago. It listed how many times each cb was targeted and how many completions they gave up. This was the same year where almost everyone was saying how great Haden was and that Sheldon Brown sucked. Well, both players were targeted almost the exact number of times and Brown actually gave up fewer completions. Not many, both players were statistically similar.
I always had this feeling about the two of them: Brown wasn't as bad as people claimed and Haden wasn't as good as they claimed.
Thus far, he has not shown he can play on an island. It would be great if he steps his game up, because we might really need him to do that w/the inexperience we have at the other cb position.
I really want to see Haden's game in this new defensive scheme. As you, I believe Sheldon Brown was pretty decent. I think what hinder the secondary most was QB were given to much time. I felt QB's wore down the secondary having time to run deep and intermediate throughout the game.
There was a debate about stopping the run no longer a factor. Allowing teams to establish the run game simply wears down the defense. I thinks this too created issues. Lastly, improving the depth at the corner back position will help. I wanted to seen more, but Horton seen something with these guys.
I feel these DB are not as big of a hindrance as many think. McFadden is key. If he has any game, this unit will be fun watching. As always, we won't know until we see these guys play a real game. I simply have a good feeling regarding McFadden.
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... Brown wasn't as bad as people claimed...
I always liked Sheldon. Yes, at times he seemed as though he had lost a step and would occassionally get beat vertically, he very often had great positioning/coverage, perhaps to a greater degree than JH...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Huh? You mean Mingo a bust??? Got news for you...Mingo was the BIG TIME FIRST INVESTMENT of this Regime. They will give him the OPPORTUNITY to Stud out. At the least he will be coming in on Passing downs like Aldon Smith. You seemed to take afront to this suggestion which I stated was simply a thought without any validation. But we know this.
Mingo will get the opportunity to play n grow. If he is successful he will be given more opportunity for different situations. There just is a possibility that Mingo progresses far faster than we think. Studs out. I'm just asking a thought process of do we just sit Sheard n bring him in pass rush situations. Or convert him to ILB.
I wasn't implying Mingo would be a bust, only that Sheard will likely be the starter and that Mingo comes in situationally until he learns his roll and is comfortable and natural dropping into coverage. I personally think it's quite possible that he and Sheard become the dominant pass rushers and Kruger gets relegated to the situational roll. Too bad we had to pay so much to get him, but we need him starting this year, no doubt.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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only that Sheard will likely be the starter and that Mingo comes in situationally until he learns his roll and is comfortable and natural dropping into coverage.
cal...I agree, Sheard's experience level along with a NFL ready body would seem to give Sheard the advantage as a starter.
Mingo is a "very raw talent" as he begins his NFL career, and I do not expect miracles from him as a rookie. We could see the front office push to start "Bark" over Sheard, but I expect the experience level of Sheard to be a defining factor.
It really doesn't matter who starts, as both players are in a similar position, learning a new position. I look for the DC to set up some kind of rotation system, trying to take advantage of both players strengths, while giving as many reps to each player as they can.
We could see all 4 outside LBs in some kind of rotation with the more experienced Groves and Kruger starting and getting most of the reps in the early part of the season.
All depends on the learning curve and how fast each player develops.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I think that Kruger, Groves, Sheard and Mingo will all see action this year.
I suspect that we'll see Kruger or Sheard drop down to DE on passing downs, with the other and Mingo at OLB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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We could see the front office push to start "Bark" over Sheard, but I expect the experience level of Sheard to be a defining factor.
Heckert's gone. Those days are over.
Thank God. 
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I could also see all of them on the field at once, with Sheard and or Mingo lining up at DE every now and then.
I think it is clear when listening to Horton talk about his D, very few line players and backers have an exclusive position. I think we will see players in multiple sets and rotations.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
Quote:
We could see the front office push to start "Bark" over Sheard, but I expect the experience level of Sheard to be a defining factor.
Heckert's gone. Those days are over.
Thank God.
You seem quite confident in a front office that hasn't proven anything yet; why not take a wait and see approach?
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only that Sheard will likely be the starter and that Mingo comes in situationally until he learns his roll and is comfortable and natural dropping into coverage.
I believe that is the logical acceptable thought by the vast majority including me. All I was saying was "WHAT IF" - Mingo progresses a lot faster than expected. I'm not debating whether he will or won't. Just a situation that btw is very possible. The question I have is what do we do with Sheard. He'll probably come in for an ILB or DL on passing downs. Definitely not for Mingo or Kruger. Do we just make him or try to transition him to compete for the ILB position opposite of DQ?
That was pretty much all I was saying. I get it by what our coaches have been saying about Sheard looking good. But when I also read how Mingo seemed to be getting it (all be it in shorts) especially dropping back to pass coverage I started to wonder what if he becomes an everydown starter (not an incredible stretch considering he's an overall #6 pick) What happens to Sheard? That is all I'm asking or suggesting an answer on possibly moving him ILB.
We know and it has nothing to do with Heckert or Lombardi every freaking team will invest high in players n when they do they give them every opportunity to prove themselves.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I think it will be a 3 man rotation at OLB, with Sheard and Kruger starting and Mingo playing on passing downs. That will keep everyone fresh and going around 60-65% of the defensive snaps. If we get a lead, we will see that number reduced even more as we will rush even more often and you dont want your pass rushers wearing down, which means others will begin to take some of those reps.
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Because I don't feel like it. What of it?
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Five NFL scheme changes to watch: Defense Cleveland Browns The Browns have promised to attack on offense, and Ray Horton's defense boasts a similar philosophy. After two years in the 4-3, Cleveland is shifting back to the 3-4. Success boils down to the play of pass rusher Paul Kruger and defensive end Desmond Bryant, both of whom were handed a mountain of money in free agency to make Horton's scheme click. First-round pick Barkevious Mingo will play outside 'backer opposite Kruger and gives the Browns a potential X factor up front. The unit's best player remains cornerback Joe Haden, capable of shutdown-level man coverage. T.J. Ward has blossomed into a reliable strong safety, but the rest of the secondary is a work in progress. Cleveland has the potential to field a nasty little defense, if all the pieces jell. Link
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I believe that is the logical acceptable thought by the vast majority including me. All I was saying was "WHAT IF" - Mingo progresses a lot faster than expected. I'm not debating whether he will or won't. Just a situation that btw is very possible. The question I have is what do we do with Sheard. He'll probably come in for an ILB or DL on passing downs. Definitely not for Mingo or Kruger. Do we just make him or try to transition him to compete for the ILB position opposite of DQ?
EO Consider also the major praise from Horton so far on Jaballs behalf. Of course most offseason banter is [positive he was rather overly positive for Jaball saying his transition is his most exciting thing he's experienced this camp. You'd think that would be his new toy Mingo, now? Considering I'm Mingo's pimp for this year and also called for Jaballs trade it's not easy for me to bring that up. I will gladly eat crow if Jaball makes the transition well as I like him muuuuuuch more than Kruger despite being a solid role player on his own.
From what I know Kruger is getting a 6mil signing bonus, 6 mil roster bonus, 700k 2013 salary and 7 mil 2014 salary. That is his guaranteed money. I view Kruger as a backup plan really. In case they didn't land Mingo or if Jaball didn't transition. He could easily have a 2 year career in C-land if he under produces or we decide to invest elsewhere due to him being a 3rd wheel.
I was very open with how I felt Kruger and Sheard are great complimentary rushers (again Sheard a much more rounded player) this offseason. I didn't see how they could coexist and still become an elite duo. It's hard to do that without someone who demands doubles and chips and can still beat them consistantly. Mingo gives us the potential for that.
I don't think theirs any argument needed that Jaball would prefer to be the starter and that he is comfortable on the left as well as a more rounded player than Kruger. I find it probable even more than possible that one of my outlined predictions happens. They allow for some failure as well as expected growth. Your typical model really. If Mingo is what I think he is we will be golden. Sheard is, without further progression, as good of a talent as Kruger but very different skill sets. Sheard is a dominant run defender and an average rusher with room to grow. Kruger an average run defender with a good variety of pass rushing skill but also probably maxed to his potential. If anyone fits the rushing specialist long term it's Kruger. A combo of Sheards and Mingos maximum potential would be exciting. Possibly the most dominant 34 OLBS of the decade.
For this year clearly our weakpoint is Will despite varying opinions it really is clear. I expect a lot of variations of formations utilizing all 3 OLBs with only one ILB or 2 DL. OLB IMO is a very explosive group so they will be on the field a lot together. I envision Sheard dropping down a lot to a 3 point and Kruger playing wide and Mingo used as a chess piece. I don't think 3 OLBs will be exclusive to 3rd and long as many such as yourself think. I think Sheard is much to good a runstopper and Mingo much too relentless to keep them caged. I can't even fathom Sheard, Kruger, Mingo, Bryant, Taylor and Winn rushing together at this point. Not too mention my guy Buster coming off the slot with the elite speed he possesses. I really think he will elevate the pass rush as well.
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Some nice thoughts.
I agree. I don't think Mingo is going to be as situational as some think. Same with several others.
You put your aces in their places. If you don't have enough places, you make one is my opinion. The best guy on the bench is only as good as the weakest guy on the bench.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I agree. I don't think Mingo is going to be as situational as some think.
I believe you're right, 'peen. If you can't stop your opponent on 1st and 2nd downs, then you're not going to have a 3rd and long passing situation...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I believe that is the logical acceptable thought by the vast majority including me. All I was saying was "WHAT IF" - Mingo progresses a lot faster than expected. I'm not debating whether he will or won't. Just a situation that btw is very possible. The question I have is what do we do with Sheard. He'll probably come in for an ILB or DL on passing downs. Definitely not for Mingo or Kruger. Do we just make him or try to transition him to compete for the ILB position opposite of DQ?
EO Consider also the major praise from Horton so far on Jaballs behalf. Of course most offseason banter is [positive he was rather overly positive for Jaball saying his transition is his most exciting thing he's experienced this camp. You'd think that would be his new toy Mingo, now? Considering I'm Mingo's pimp for this year and also called for Jaballs trade it's not easy for me to bring that up. I will gladly eat crow if Jaball makes the transition well as I like him muuuuuuch more than Kruger despite being a solid role player on his own.
From what I know Kruger is getting a 6mil signing bonus, 6 mil roster bonus, 700k 2013 salary and 7 mil 2014 salary. That is his guaranteed money. I view Kruger as a backup plan really. In case they didn't land Mingo or if Jaball didn't transition. He could easily have a 2 year career in C-land if he under produces or we decide to invest elsewhere due to him being a 3rd wheel.
I was very open with how I felt Kruger and Sheard are great complimentary rushers (again Sheard a much more rounded player) this offseason. I didn't see how they could coexist and still become an elite duo. It's hard to do that without someone who demands doubles and chips and can still beat them consistantly. Mingo gives us the potential for that.
I don't think theirs any argument needed that Jaball would prefer to be the starter and that he is comfortable on the left as well as a more rounded player than Kruger. I find it probable even more than possible that one of my outlined predictions happens. They allow for some failure as well as expected growth. Your typical model really. If Mingo is what I think he is we will be golden. Sheard is, without further progression, as good of a talent as Kruger but very different skill sets. Sheard is a dominant run defender and an average rusher with room to grow. Kruger an average run defender with a good variety of pass rushing skill but also probably maxed to his potential. If anyone fits the rushing specialist long term it's Kruger. A combo of Sheards and Mingos maximum potential would be exciting. Possibly the most dominant 34 OLBS of the decade.
For this year clearly our weakpoint is Will despite varying opinions it really is clear. I expect a lot of variations of formations utilizing all 3 OLBs with only one ILB or 2 DL. OLB IMO is a very explosive group so they will be on the field a lot together. I envision Sheard dropping down a lot to a 3 point and Kruger playing wide and Mingo used as a chess piece. I don't think 3 OLBs will be exclusive to 3rd and long as many such as yourself think. I think Sheard is much to good a runstopper and Mingo much too relentless to keep them caged. I can't even fathom Sheard, Kruger, Mingo, Bryant, Taylor and Winn rushing together at this point. Not too mention my guy Buster coming off the slot with the elite speed he possesses. I really think he will elevate the pass rush as well.
This is a very interesting thought about Buster in the slot attacking on a blitz. I could see Horton sending Buster and Ward at times or just alternating them a few times a game just to keep the offense wondering what is coming. Could we see Mingo or Sheard rushing from one of the ILB spots at times? With the DL we have I could see so many different looks from the LB positions.
Good post eotab very interesting.
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I think Mingo could blitz from anywhere really. I would definitely send him in the middle on occasion. Maybe off a wrap stunt. Where a DE pushes the OT out. Mingo has an incredible spin move. With both their pads off and in a lab he's quicker and tighter than Freeney, probably the best spin move rusher ever. You push that OT out and crash the NT down on the C opening up a one on one and Mingo will beat an OG on a spin a lot more often than not.
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Would be nice to generate the kind of pass rush that generates the holding penalties on opposing offenses. Holding penalties are a drive killer as we have seen with are offense.
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V Dog, JMHO, you mentioned no argument, good, made point about 3-4, 5-2, etc....point, what I've gathered about Horton is, HE and his D will try to dictate to the O, you stated keys, reads, etc.....it could be real easy, sic the QB, shoot the gaps, get there. blowup their play....I remember Ryan's D against New Orleans where we beat them as huge underdog, cuz the D was completely off the wall.....I see same thing with BETTER Personnel....could be real ugly or real sweet every play.....I LOVE the FACT we can expect our guys to ATTACK every down.....DQ could be only one reading and reacting some.....SIC them Browns!!!!
"You've never lived till you've almost died, life has a flavor the protected will never know" A vet or cop
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